What causes the LS1's to have no balls down low?

[Ruiner]

I know Motor mag used to complain about this back in the day and I too notice aswell. My Calais doesnt really go anywhere till 2.5-3k RPM.
From what Ive heard, they rectified the lack of low end grunt with the LS2>, but I dont know what they changed other then adding 300mL to the overall capacity.

[ADAM 26]

Cam profile, heads, compression, intake manifold, all are different from ls1-ls2.

And tuning also.

[macca_779]

Tuning is the big one. A tuned ls1 will have more torque everywhere over the old 5l they used to compare it to.

[AGIT8D]

Lazy diff gears?

[steve_vu]

Factory restricions mostly, Maff sensor, header pipes and exhaust - remove these and its a completely different ride!

[macca_779]

Factory restricions mostly, Maff sensor, header pipes and exhaust - remove these and its a completely different ride!

Actually none of those things really contribute remotely to why ls1 are lazy down low.

[Ruiner]

Mine has all the usual stuff done short of diff gears and its still a nugget down low.
I know a set of diff gears would help it get up into its peak rev range quicker, but its just odd for a V8 of that capacity to be doughy down low.
Probably similar to how old skool 8's had SFA for top end grunt

[macca33]

Why is it odd? The VY is no lightweight car. I am always amused at the 5lt fans saying the LS1 has nothing down low - they are so misguided it is laughable. The LS1 eats and spits the 5lt out.

As the other macca states - the tune is the main culprit and it why the same engine produces 225fwkW (VX Commy) up to 285fwkW (Y-HSV) - the bolt-ons didn't make too much of a difference, it was mostly in the tune.

cheers

[Micks]

Not to mention your Calais is a heavier Car than others, low diff as well!
How many K's does your motor have & what's the compression like?

Cheers
VYT

[macca_779]

Not to mention your Calais is a heavier Car than others, low diff as well!
How many K's does your motor have & what's the compression like?

Cheers
VYT

Irrelevant when compared to a 5L. They all had 3.08 gears M5 and A4 non HSV models.

I drove a mates VY SS UTE the other day just to try out his NPC clutch. Stock tune but had pipes bla bla bla. Even i forgot how gutless they are as I don't drive stock ones very often. Fixed after I threw a tune at it though.


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[duke5700]

Why is it odd? The VY is no lightweight car. I am always amused at the 5lt fans saying the LS1 has nothing down low - they are so misguided it is laughable. The LS1 eats and spits the 5lt out.

As the other macca states - the tune is the main culprit and it why the same engine produces 225fwkW (VX Commy) up to 285fwkW (Y-HSV) - the bolt-ons didn't make too much of a difference, it was mostly in the tune.

cheers

:goodjob:

Misguided is being nice.

[mickeyVX350]

Why is it odd? The VY is no lightweight car. I am always amused at the 5lt fans saying the LS1 has nothing down low - they are so misguided it is laughable. The LS1 eats and spits the 5lt out.

As the other macca states - the tune is the main culprit and it why the same engine produces 225fwkW (VX Commy) up to 285fwkW (Y-HSV) - the bolt-ons didn't make too much of a difference, it was mostly in the tune.

cheers

How true - I had a bloke telling me how his 5L would rip a 5.7 a new poo-hole (his Dad has a 5.7)

I told him that it may FEEL and SOUND like it, but the LS1 is a sneaky bugger. The smoothness makes you think that you aren't pushing hard.

Of course, having a lightly tickled LS1, we know that it'll munch a 5L.. I know as I had a 180KW VS SS up until 2 years ago, and the Monaro parked next to it... I know that the 5L felt fast, but it wasn't... It certainly wasn;'t returning the 5.7 Fuel consumption either!

[macca_779]

I could just barely pip a stock VT LS1 back when I had my VN SS. Now the VN was a dam light car and I had played around with it a little back then in the form of a HSV memcal and an extra 4deg of base timing I put into the dizzy. The weight is what gave me the advantage. Go drive a VT 5L compared to a VN one. Big difference in pace.

Even better go put a stock ls1 in a VN and try tell me it feels doughy down low. It's all relative and even though the tune is the main hold back they are still a 5.7l v8 that revs quite well and makes more power the faster you turn it. The 5l didn't rev anywhere near as well so realitievly it felt stronger down low because it had bugger all up top.


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[csv rulz]

How true - I had a bloke telling me how his 5L would rip a 5.7 a new poo-hole (his Dad has a 5.7)

I told him that it may FEEL and SOUND like it, but the LS1 is a sneaky bugger. The smoothness makes you think that you aren't pushing hard.

Of course, having a lightly tickled LS1, we know that it'll munch a 5L.. I know as I had a 180KW VS SS up until 2 years ago, and the Monaro parked next to it... I know that the 5L felt fast, but it wasn't... It certainly wasn;'t returning the 5.7 Fuel consumption either!

I know going from my stock ls1 to your tuned ls1 the difference was all down low, above 4,000rpm I doubt there would be much difference between the two cars. However for throttle response down low yours would eat mine alive.

Also have a mate with a stock VT 5L Clubby, he drove mine and said that while the LS1 felt quicker, it didnt feel 50kw+ quicker. That would be done to the ls1 needing revs before it starts hauling.

[Ruiner]

Why is it odd? The VY is no lightweight car. I am always amused at the 5lt fans saying the LS1 has nothing down low - they are so misguided it is laughable. The LS1 eats and spits the 5lt out.

As the other macca states - the tune is the main culprit and it why the same engine produces 225fwkW (VX Commy) up to 285fwkW (Y-HSV) - the bolt-ons didn't make too much of a difference, it was mostly in the tune.

cheers


Reason I say its odd is because my works Falcon work hack feels pretty much the same down low as my LS1. Drive both around town and keep it below 3k and I can barely tell the difference in there power delivery.
But like what VYTonne said, my Calais is pretty heavy, 1900kg with me in it coupled with the standard rear end properly exacerbates the problem

[VTV691]

And this is why you see so many L98s and LS3's in cars that originally had LS1's..+ the extra ponnies :lol:

[whiteknight2211]

I would think some of those reviewers had a 5l with a cat back and tried to compare it to a VTII factory standard LS1... I went from a VS SS (BT1) to a VU SS factory standard and nearly got rear ended due to the difference in the cars drivability.. I punched my foot down and went no where.

When I threw that horrible factory exhaust away however the 5l was not comparable ever again.. Even the standard factory Programming in my VY II was light years ahead of the VU and a tune made it a great deal more drivable..

I believe Jeremy Clarkson made a joke about an old V8 in that it's main job was to convert fuel into noise with a small amount of torque as a by-product.. I'm imagining an old 253 V8 flooring it now..

I never looked back going to the LS1 and I agree that the fuel consumption was an additional bonus compared to the old cast iron V8...

As everyone will tell you, get a tune and it'll feel line like you're driving a completely different car.

[v8dude78]

I always thought the reason LS1's had no low down grunt was due to the short stroke.

Where as a LS2, L98, LS3 Etc have a longer stroke and of course more cubes.
But i could be completely wrong :confused:

[Soopy]

5ltr delivers its torque quickly and then falls over. So far as I can see thats why they felt "stronger" in the bottom end.

Having owned a couple over the years, They're fun but not much chop unless you spend a quid on them.



I always thought the reason LS1's had no low down grunt was due to the short stroke.

Where as a LS2, L98, LS3 Etc have a longer stroke and of course more cubes.
But i could be completely wrong :confused:

I believe they all have the same stroke, bigger bore.

[spiv]

I always thought the reason LS1's had no low down grunt was due to the short stroke.

Where as a LS2, L98, LS3 Etc have a longer stroke and of course more cubes.
But i could be completely wrong :confused:

They all have the same stroke from the factory only the bore is bigger between the ls1, ls2, l98 & ls3.

If you wants heaps more bottom end bold on a PD supercharger and you will never look back....:xmas:

[stockergts]

my old brock would beat a std ls1 everyday of the week and use 200 bucks worth of juice
my gts did te same times done the strip but used only 100 bucks worth of juice

[v8dude78]

If you wants heaps more bottom end bold on a PD supercharger and you will never look back....:xmas:

:bow: Would be nice :)

[Ruiner]

They all have the same stroke from the factory only the bore is bigger between the ls1, ls2, l98 & ls3.

If you wants heaps more bottom end bold on a PD supercharger and you will never look back....:xmas:


Hence me planning on taking the TVS1900 route.
Its either go down the LS3/L99 etc route or go the charger route.
After owning a working Super6 VS Calais, I know how well a blower goes as a daily, grunt from 1500rpm leaves many people envious.

[spiv]

Hence me planning on taking the TVS1900 route.
Its either go down the LS3/L99 etc route or go the charger route.
After owning a working Super6 VS Calais, I know how well a blower goes as a daily, grunt from 1500rpm leaves many people envious.

Nice one I had a factory supercharged vs Calais also, which was boosted to 10 lbs and it was tons of fun to drive, now I have the supercharged FPV GS 315 and it puts a smile on my face just like my old Calais used to:bow:

[OzJavelin]

Irrelevant when compared to a 5L. They all had 3.08 gears M5 and A4 non HSV models.

I drove a mates VY SS UTE the other day just to try out his NPC clutch. Stock tune but had pipes bla bla bla. Even i forgot how gutless they are as I don't drive stock ones very often. Fixed after I threw a tune at it though.


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Don't want to start another debate, but was that MAF or MAFless tune? (I'd assume MAF if it was "stock" tune previously?)

I love the driveability and reliability of my stocky LS1, but the lack of low-down torque borders on annoying .. I'd love to get rid of that bogging down, without changing "everything" (eg. MAF, cam, headers, cats, exhaust, gears, etc)

[whitels1ss]

Don't want to start another debate, but was that MAF or MAFless tune? (I'd assume MAF if it was "stock" tune previously?)


If you just want a bit more poke down low on a bog stock car (which is the topic of this thread,) all you need is a tune.
You don't need to remove the maf on a bog stock car to get that result and doing that on a bog stock car and would not be of any advantage. :)

[Souljah]

I have both, LS1 and 5L.

Only fanboi's of the 5L will tell you how much better they are. And when they can't think of any other ways to tell you how it's better they will always go back to "oh, but it sounds better."

The 5L in the VQ would never have held a candle to the LS1 stock or tuned. No if's or buts. The 5L is a nugget in todays world. /end thread.

[Smashfist]

I have both, LS1 and 5L.

Only fanboi's of the 5L will tell you how much better they are. And when they can't think of any other ways to tell you how it's better they will always go back to "oh, but it sounds better."

The 5L in the VQ would never have held a candle to the LS1 stock or tuned. No if's or buts. The 5L is a nugget in todays world. /end thread.

Pretty much spot on. I've had a 5L VT and 2 LS1 VY's, and IMO the LS1s just shat all over the 5L.

[VX2VESS]

Stock form a better motor the LS, modified still better and cheaper to make the same power gains on the LS motors, plus use less fuel.

The issues on low power at low rev's is easy and cheap to make go away.

Heavier cars Vt-VZ, not as heavy as the VE. VT isn't too bad with some light wheels and exhaust etc, few mods they are quite quick when setup well.

[macca_779]

Don't want to start another debate, but was that MAF or MAFless tune? (I'd assume MAF if it was "stock" tune previously?)

I love the driveability and reliability of my stocky LS1, but the lack of low-down torque borders on annoying .. I'd love to get rid of that bogging down, without changing "everything" (eg. MAF, cam, headers, cats, exhaust, gears, etc)

Just a MAF tune mate. Mafless is not the be all and end I assure you

[awesome _vzss]

Well if the car has been tuned maybe you should look at other reason causing your issue,
Could be be a lot of things eg lazy box,dirty throttle body or blocked filter,maybe the motors not running right or could be just getting use to the power,I think we all suffer that problem at some stage.

[BLACK 346]

Well if the car has been tuned maybe you should look at other reason causing your issue,
Could be be a lot of things eg lazy box,dirty throttle body or blocked filter,maybe the motors not running right or could be just getting use to the power,I think we all suffer that problem at some stage.

Yep, getting used to the power is the worst one of all, nothing but a shit load more money will fix that one lol

[feistl]

Heavier cars Vt-VZ, not as heavy as the VE. VT isn't too bad with some light wheels and exhaust etc, few mods they are quite quick when setup well.

VX is a fair bit lighter than the VT. Especially the series II VX.

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

I have both, LS1 and 5L.

Only fanboi's of the 5L will tell you how much better they are. And when they can't think of any other ways to tell you how it's better they will always go back to "oh, but it sounds better."

The 5L in the VQ would never have held a candle to the LS1 stock or tuned. No if's or buts. The 5L is a nugget in todays world. /end thread.

have to agree

[spiv]

VX is a fair bit lighter than the VT. Especially the series II VX.

The VT series II went on a diet and was considerably lighter than the series I VT.

[csv rulz]

The VT series II went on a diet and was considerably lighter than the series I VT.

I think VT II was roughly lighter by over series 1 by:
Exec 80kg
SS 40kg

[elton]

[QUOTE][/Originally Posted by OzJavelin
Don't want to start another debate, but was that MAF or MAFless tune? (I'd assume MAF if it was "stock" tune previously?)

I love the driveability and reliability of my stocky LS1, but the lack of low-down torque borders on annoying .. I'd love to get rid of that bogging down, without changing "everything" (eg. MAF, cam, headers, cats, exhaust, gears, etc)

Just a MAF tune mate. Mafless is not the be all and end I assure youQUOTE]

Maffless is the only way to go on LS1.......

[redvxr8clubby]

Tuning is the big one. A tuned ls1 will have more torque everywhere over the old 5l they used to compare it to.

Probably makes sense really. Going back 5 years when I was looking around just before buying my Clubby, I drove a few VX SS's, most of which had extractors and you could notice the difference driving the cars with the extractors, and the cars with standard exhaust. I always put it down to the exhaust. Just test driving them for 10 minutes or so, I never knew what other mods individual cars had, but it's logical that at least some of them were tuned also. Given this thread is mainly about low RPM, I wouldn't think the exhaust would be a big factor, so tune does seem to make sense. A while ago I had a short test drive in a VE SS auto, and even though it was a short drive in suburbs, you can certainly feel the extra low down mumbo over an LS1.

[350VZ]

They all have the same stroke from the factory only the bore is bigger between the ls1, ls2, l98 & ls3.

If you wants heaps more bottom end bold on a PD supercharger and you will never look back....:xmas:

I thought this would solve my problems of no low down grunt. All the talk of PD blowers making power down low. Mine doesn't do anything until beyond 3000rpm. Ton's of power up top, still very unimpressed down low where I wanted it. Just my 2 cents.

[spiv]

I thought this would solve my problems of no low down grunt. All the talk of PD blowers making power down low. Mine doesn't do anything until beyond 3000rpm. Ton's of power up top, still very unimpressed down low where I wanted it. Just my 2 cents.

That doesn't sound right, a PD blower should have instantaneous boost off idle when the throttle is punched, yours sounds more like a centrifugal blower where boost is a function of engine rpm. I've had two PD cars so far and both showed boost just off idle when I crack the throttle. What boost does it register below 3,000 rpm?? Sounds like an auto with a high stall that doesn't get a chance to build boost before it reaches the convertors stall speed.

[IJ.]

That doesn't sound right, a PD blower should have instantaneous boost off idle when the throttle is punched, yours sounds more like a centrifugal blower where boost is a function of engine rpm. I've had two PD cars so far and both showed boost just off idle when I crack the throttle. What boost does it register below 3,000 rpm?? Sounds like an auto with a high stall that doesn't get a chance to build boost before it reaches the convertors stall speed.

Bypass might be hanging open for whatever reason..

[73LJWhiteSL]

I always thought the reason LS1's had no low down grunt was due to the short stroke.

Where as a LS2, L98, LS3 Etc have a longer stroke and of course more cubes.
But i could be completely wrong :confused:

Doesn't the 5L have a longer stroke than the LS engines? My understanding is that a longer stroke generates more torque whereas a short stroke generally means and engine reves higher?

However I believe there is a relationship between torque and inlet airspeed.

Steve

Edit: never mind 5L stroke 3.02", LS stroke 3.6"

[redmonaro]

I think they fixed the low end torque problem in the vz 5.7, my stock ls1monaro had heaps of low down torque more than earlier ls1's i have driven, i think holden changed the cam profile and the tuning

[Peter B - CV8]

I think they fixed the low end torque problem in the vz 5.7, my stock ls1monaro had heaps of low down torque more than earlier ls1's i have driven, i think holden changed the cam profile and the tuning

Yep, cam profile, fly by wire throttle, different tune, better exhaust & 3.46 diff for auto's. Certainly made them get out of the box quicker.