Tune for E85?

[SSVHM2.5]

Has anyone tuned there 6 Ltr for E85? I have read quite a bit about it latly and it looks like some great gains can be made. The fuel is reported as being as high as 110 octane. My engine pings a little under slight load in high gears even after an Autotechnique tune. I believe the higher octane associated with E85 would stop this. My only concern is avialability, even though I live in Melbourne...

[jono0309]

I think E85 is good for cost efficiency but you use more of the fuel. I think power wise, the only REAL gain can be made through forced induction or high compression. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[planetdavo]

Maybe having them back off their tune a little would be a better "real world" situation than having to find obscure fuel to suit their (it appears) rather highly "optimised" end result...

[raff]

Unless you have a series 2 or use a x-cal type arrangement- tuning for E85 would obviously restrict you to E85 which in Melbourne is few and far between which would be a real pain in the arse. I have a series 2 and find the cost vs milage is in favour of 98 octane regular fuel. Seat of the pants performance I cant notice much power wise between the two. I occasionally can notice a momentary ping under load, high gear, low speed- both running BP98 and E85, fuel octane hasn't made a difference.

if your worried about regular pinging the answer should be in the tune, not upping the fuel octane- the tune should suit the fuel at time of tune, not the other way round! Speak to the guys at Autotechnique and ask their advice

[SSVHM2.5]

Thanks Raff, very interesting. My car is an 07 manual SSV and suffered from this ping under load, high gear low speed since i got it. I thought the tune would have fixed this and it is better but still there, especially on Shell or when the outside temp is hot. It is better on Caltex and BP. The car made 259 rwkw with the usual tune/OTR and HSV headers and HM 2.5.

[raff]

My tune is also Autotechnique, have essentially the same setup as yourself, HSV headers, Ballistic 100cpi cats, HM mid section, standard rear cans (to stop AFM drone!) VCM OTR but mine is an auto and put out a conservative 219rw. If i labour the box (generally in normal drive mode) I can pick a slight ping but it is momentary. My understanding is pinging is not good at anytime so if yours is more prevalent I would see if an adjustment in tune can make the difference. I would take reliability over dyno rwkw any day!

Im not sure how true it is but I was told short headers like the HSV headers can accentuate pinging noise more than long tubes or cast headers?? I must admit I never noticed any with the standard cast headers. I guess whether you can hear it or not shouldn't matter- if it exists, its bad!

[chrisjb]

Unless you have a series 2 or use a x-cal type arrangement- tuning for E85 would obviously restrict you to E85 which in Melbourne is few and far between which would be a real pain in the arse. I have a series 2 and find the cost vs milage is in favour of 98 octane regular fuel. Seat of the pants performance I cant notice much power wise between the two. I occasionally can notice a momentary ping under load, high gear, low speed- both running BP98 and E85, fuel octane hasn't made a difference.

if your worried about regular pinging the answer should be in the tune, not upping the fuel octane- the tune should suit the fuel at time of tune, not the other way round! Speak to the guys at Autotechnique and ask their advice


I would have thought you would still need an x-cal or similar to run both E85 & 98 after a tune? Is this not the case?
Would be very interested to find out if this is the case.

[macca_779]

I think E85 is good for cost efficiency but you use more of the fuel. I think power wise, the only REAL gain can be made through forced induction or high compression. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your wrong. I got gains in my vt using eflex. Noticeable throughout the rev range

[macca_779]

Unless you have a series 2 or use a x-cal type arrangement- tuning for E85 would obviously restrict you to E85 which in Melbourne is few and far between which would be a real pain in the arse. I have a series 2 and find the cost vs milage is in favour of 98 octane regular fuel. Seat of the pants performance I cant notice much power wise between the two. I occasionally can notice a momentary ping under load, high gear, low speed- both running BP98 and E85, fuel octane hasn't made a difference.

if your worried about regular pinging the answer should be in the tune, not upping the fuel octane- the tune should suit the fuel at time of tune, not the other way round! Speak to the guys at Autotechnique and ask their advice

If you optimize for eflex it will work out cheaper. I haven't really looked into the series 2 calibrations. But if history serves Holden would of done a half arse job with it. So get it tuned by someone that has experience with ethanol

I use ~15-20% more using eflex over 98. At 35+c/L cheaper it accounts for the extra consumption no problem.

For a series 2 with proper flex fuel capabilities you would have to be mad not to use it.

I just wish I could get it locally. Have spoken to my local caltex. They have tanks lined and ready to go for it but can't justify it due to demand. This means all you series 2 owners need to get off your arses and start being vocal to the servos so they know the demand is there

[raff]

If you optimize for eflex it will work out cheaper. I haven't really looked into the series 2 calibrations. But if history serves Holden would of done a half arse job with it. So get it tuned by someone that has experience with ethanol

I use ~15-20% more using eflex over 98. At 35+c/L cheaper it accounts for the extra consumption no problem.

For a series 2 with proper flex fuel capabilities you would have to be mad not to use it.

I just wish I could get it locally. Have spoken to my local caltex. They have tanks lined and ready to go for it but can't justify it due to demand. This means all you series 2 owners need to get off your arses and start being vocal to the servos so they know the demand is there

The problem is the high majority of series 2 owners will not alter their factory tunes and at current prices, E-flex is just not worth it.

I think the 20% more figure is about right for the factory tune on series 2 if conservatively cruising. The problem I have found in Melbourne is the price of E-flex is creeping up. When 98 was sitting at $1.50 some months ago, I was often buying E-flex at sub $1.20. More recently when 98 is around $1.55, I am seeing E-flex closer to $1.30, 25c difference or 20% cheaper. The hassle of traveling further to get it negates any savings made in my opinion. Perhaps its a catch 22- less demand, higher costs to keep it with less turnover and thus even further diminishes the demand- at the current price its not a great enough saving to get excited about it. I never see anyone at the E-flex bowser at my local when driving past.

One big difference I notice is driving style. I found on the highway E-flex would give around a 15% higher usage and quite often better than that- but, put the foot down on shorter journeys and there is a marked difference, I would say a good 30% increase over 98 (again maybe a decent E85 specific tune would help here). For me, regular petrol wins the day for convenience and milage (until the price comes down to sub 35c/lt cheaper than 98!)

[sixlta]

I have notice that almost every united servo no have e85 and 100ron, stuff Is becoming more available no, I can get to 6 servos in under 20km that sell both

[SSVHM2.5]

What do you think of the United product? I have never used it...

[zorro]

I've been using united100 for a few months now and have got my ve table and timing spot on (thanks Luis @ APS for the fueling advice). Haven't played with lean cruise yet however I'm still getting 500klm plus a tank so I'm not too worried atm.

If your afrs are on the rich side throw 100 in and you should be safe, extra safe take it to autotechnique and get them to check afrs.

E85 is available and along with eflex opens up more service stations to pick from. Get it retuned for it and happy days

[dogsballs]

have a L76 6.0 tuned on e-flex, running 12.0:1 compression and running decent times down the strip. Ethanol is awesome, no way i could run that much comp and make as much hp with-out it. thing is that there are very few tuners that have their head around the tuning side and still run them lean like petrol ie lamba's 0.9 or equivalent 12 high AFR's. Luis has played with mine recently and we're down to 0.8 lamba ~11.8 AFR's, but still think we can shove more fuel into it, down to .74 lambda.

also your car should NOT be noticeably pinging. if it is i'd be down to Mario and get him to sort it out. not acceptable.

There are currently 8 caltex service stations serving e-flex and 2 uniteds selling E85 (that i know of). it will be the way of the future fuel wise for performance cars.

[zorro]

Dales car is a good bit of proof the e85 is good gear, in a sense a standard motor with shaved heads pushing 400rwhp through a decent stalled auto.

Btw dale we having souvlaki for dinner and the trampoline misses you :lol:

[brasher]

Dale tuned my Series 2.

On 98 uses 12L/100

E85 (eflex) uses 15L/100

Runs so much better on E85, pulls smoother, lugs better up hills, revs out faster and has a very big Seat of the pants improvement.

But the dyno graph only says 11rwkw gain.

Very worthwhile investment, I just leave the Xcal in the glovebox and can swap and change depending on where I am.

[jca]

Everyone should be using e85 it should never ping if tuned correct a lot of tuners try and tune with a/frs they need to understand lambda to tune it correct I picked up. 80rwkw on my race car wish it was available local I'd run my lawn mower on it intake temps also dropped its easy to tune when u know how The main prob is all e85 is different

[zorro]

Your lawn mower wouldn't last too long :lol:

[brasher]

Everyone should be using e85 it should never ping if tuned correct a lot of tuners try and tune with a/frs they need to understand lambda to tune it correct I picked up. 80rwkw on my race car wish it was available local I'd run my lawn mower on it intake temps also dropped its easy to tune when u know how The main prob is all e85 is different

I'll be test running it in my dirtbike soon, but from the research I have done it is near impossible for the bike to be kickstarted with it. But once started the power pickup is fairly substantial (3-5hp on a 40hp bike)

[zorro]

You want to adjust your fueling as the bike will run lean on e85. Even when shell had the v-power 100ron that was killing bikes and small motor powered vehicles.

[macca_779]

I'll be test running it in my dirtbike soon, but from the research I have done it is near impossible for the bike to be kickstarted with it. But once started the power pickup is fairly substantial (3-5hp on a 40hp bike)

Good luck with it. Post your results as I'm very interested how it goes in bikes. My bike is my daily and being Carb I just can't justify the development for when I do have access to it. Plus I haven't done the research to see if it's even compatible with my fuel system components. I've heard the doom and gloom. But I take that shit with a pinch of salt as people say that about cars and I know for a fact that's bs.

[02PRUV]

Your lawn mower wouldn't last too long :lol:

Actually I have run E85 in my lawnmower for ages cause it's the only fuel I keep in jerry cans at home. Goes great just need to prime it a bit more to first get it going cold. Once it's going and hot starting it's perfect. And I like the sweet smell, it makes mowing more enjoyable

[macca_779]

Actually I have run E85 in my lawnmower for ages cause it's the only fuel I keep in jerry cans at home. Goes great just need to prime it a bit more to first get it going cold. Once it's going and hot starting it's perfect. And I like the sweet smell, it makes mowing more enjoyable

You didn't have to play with the carb adjustments at all?

[zorro]

Yeah Ryan that's got me stumped aswell.....

[02PRUV]

You didn't have to play with the carb adjustments at all?

Not at all.

[jca]

The boys love it when we run the race car on the Dyno cos the workshop smells fairy floss

[macca_779]

Not at all.

2 or 4 stroke. Your tempting me.

[brasher]

Good luck with it. Post your results as I'm very interested how it goes in bikes. My bike is my daily and being Carb I just can't justify the development for when I do have access to it. Plus I haven't done the research to see if it's even compatible with my fuel system components. I've heard the doom and gloom. But I take that shit with a pinch of salt as people say that about cars and I know for a fact that's bs.

Thanks, it's a brand new CRF250R so it's EFI. Have access to the HRC tune tool and a bit of dyno time. I'll be logging my finds for a dirtbike forum so will share it here.

Combined with a Yoshimura RS4 full exhaust and extrude honed head hoping we can get around 45rwhp pretty safely. About 7hp up from stock.

[zorro]

That's awesome! Well done on the groundwork mate, keen to see your results

[02PRUV]

2 or 4 stroke. Your tempting me.

Mines 4 stroke.

[macca_779]

Mines 4 stroke.

Mines 2 stroke. Not sure how that would change things.

[Dieselman]

Mines 2 stroke. Not sure how that would change things.

I would make sure the 2 stroke oil mixes with E85 first. I have read that Stihl had to change their oil in the states to suit E10

[tacka007]

sorry to get off track abit but does anyone kno if there is e85 in bendigo or will there ever be thanks

[jono0309]

Dale tuned my Series 2.

On 98 uses 12L/100

E85 (eflex) uses 15L/100

Runs so much better on E85, pulls smoother, lugs better up hills, revs out faster and has a very big Seat of the pants improvement.

But the dyno graph only says 11rwkw gain.

Very worthwhile investment, I just leave the Xcal in the glovebox and can swap and change depending on where I am.

This is what I meant Maccas. "REAL gains". 11rwkw isn't much for the cost of getting a tune/dyno.
Plus your filling up more, sure its a cheaper fuel but your also using more.
Weigh up the options but it doesn't seem to be THAT much better than just running 98, or if you can get it, 100 ron.

[macca_779]

This is what I meant Maccas. "REAL gains". 11rwkw isn't much for the cost of getting a tune/dyno.
Plus your filling up more, sure its a cheaper fuel but your also using more.
Weigh up the options but it doesn't seem to be THAT much better than just running 98, or if you can get it, 100 ron.

Can tell you've never tried it. The torque increase throughout the range is worth it alone.

Of course you use more but it works out cheaper so who cares. 98 fuel isn't worth shit if not tuned for but look around.

[brasher]

This is what I meant Maccas. "REAL gains". 11rwkw isn't much for the cost of getting a tune/dyno.
Plus your filling up more, sure its a cheaper fuel but your also using more.
Weigh up the options but it doesn't seem to be THAT much better than just running 98, or if you can get it, 100 ron.

But if you look into my post a bit more, the car is much better to drive, and seems WAY more than just 11rwkw. More like 30 or so (at a guess)

Yeah you use more, 2-3L per 100km. It's not like the car goes from getting 600km to a tank to a Big Block Chev 80km or anything like that.

Not to mention the fuel saving benefits too.

Some rough calcs here.

Say I pay 1.15 for E85, and equivelant for 98 is 1.60. Thats ~45c/L

Now if I fill up from empty approx 70L thats $31.50 per tank saved

I do a fair bit of driving, go through 1.5 to 2 tanks per week.

Xcal3 is around $700 bucks, plus tune. More or less pays for itself in a year.

Thats some very rough calculations mind you.

I'm doing something good for the environment plus my exhaust smells like popcorn, win win.

[dogsballs]

This is what I meant Maccas. "REAL gains". 11rwkw isn't much for the cost of getting a tune/dyno.
Plus your filling up more, sure its a cheaper fuel but your also using more.
Weigh up the options but it doesn't seem to be THAT much better than just running 98, or if you can get it, 100 ron.
most already have a tune, $400 for a touch-up won't break the bank. its a multiplying thing, it allows you to do way more with the engine, yet keep it tame. i have a non-existant ls2 cam in my car, but with other mods it runs deep into the 11's. but idles dead stock, get 16l/100k driving to geelong and back.

more power, more torque, allows you to run stupid amounts of compression, less knock, more timing.

yeah shit fuel. i think someone needs to get their "real world" facts straight.

[zorro]

Even on the united100 I've got good gains and only marginal rise in economy on a standard vz senator with tune. You can smell the alcohol on startup and at idle so it's definitely there.

As db said, more fuel + more timing = win

[Stewge]

Even on the united100 I've got good gains and only marginal rise in economy on a standard vz senator with tune. You can smell the alcohol on startup and at idle so it's definitely there.

As db said, more fuel + more timing = win

This stuff turned up at United in ballarat and I'm testing out my first tank. Seems a little gutsier but it's still only the first tank. Seem to burn through it at the same rate though and comes in about 6-7c above BP98. Although my car is in need of a new tune so that may change.

The trouble with E85 is you just can't get the stuff in most places.

[zorro]

I'd be getting it tuned sooner than later as it will run lean :)