Falcon & Territory to disappear forever after 2016

[Ausmartin1]

Looks like after 2016 the Ford Fan boys will be pottering about in Ford global Tortises and Explorers etc.
from "The gobal platform".

This is from Alan Mulally while in Europe, He read a list of car models going into ther future and Falcon / Territory 40K per annum production
was not among them.

Sadly the "Button" car plan is working too well .. soon we won't have any car manufacturing in a decade the way we are going - poor form

Your thoughts ?

[Martin_D]

My bet is we will have Mustang though :)
Kind of makes up for it!

[planetdavo]

My thoughts are that the very obvious Ford fanboyz on this Holden forum will get upset again for you mentioning what nearly every enthusiast already knows Aus, and will spit their dummies into the bath water.
With the current horrid sales volumes bleeding to (mostly) the small and SUV classes, continued high Aussie dollar, continually shrinking Falcon product range and no hope of exports, they were gone ages ago. Pulling planned Focus production has also made the very future of Broadmeadows production iffy indeed.
We're not the first country to suffer manufacturing pain, and we certainly wont be the last. When you have manufacturers chasing as much profit as possible, and consumers trying to chase the cheapest deals possible, the end result is, however undesirable, rather inevitable...

[HSVREDSLED]

Me thinks its a total roll on from the COTF stuff.

If we are seeing supercars hanging Aurion panels, and being competitive, then making sales, then why the Fark would ford or holden continue to produce more expensive RWD options when they can produce cheaper FWD taxis and hang panels on COTF frames and collectively jerk off about who won Bathurst when in reality...it will mean diddly squat to what the punter drives on the street. For what its worth...Im watching NASCAR all ready in preperation.

[Jacko*]

Worst part about losing a car industry in Australia will be the flow on effect to all the component manufacturers and smaller businesses the support Holden and ford, that and all the tax payers dollars that have been wasted propping them up artificially over the last decade. GM will still have a presence in the car scene in oz, as will Ford long after the last Commodore and Falcon role of the line. They just won't be designed or built here.

[Aus8]

Australian manufacturing? Whats that?

[BEARWOOD]

Isn't 2016 still 4 years away?? So many things could change between now & then and even if they don't it's 4 years way...

[Woodchukka]

It will be sad to see the Australian RWD platforms go,l globalisation is a bitch like that. However lets just hope there is some alternative for those who want the RWD platform.

[aussiemuscle308]

maybe. but 'one ford' policy only dicates that Falcon should use only usa/european parts, which they could easily do. the bigger problem is the current head of FOA (an american) is purposely killing off falcon. (why would you never advertise a product, especially one that's failing?).

[Jag530G]

I think Ford Australia's troubles can in part be blamed on Ford USA not developing a short wheel base platform for the Oz market Falcon and US market Mustang and a long wheel base platform for the Oz market Fairlane/LTD/ute/wagon and the US market Crown Vic/Town Car.

Just a huge missed opportunity.

Cheers, Matthew

[flappist]

I will bet a slab that there will be a 2017 Falcon just like there will be a 2017 Commodore.

They are both Australian icons and very symbiotic.

[V8BEER]

Just that the falcon will be a rebadge americian FWD heap of poop

[zorro]

I don't know about that, it would be wrong for Ford US to take the Australian market for fools and push them into something they won't be interested in. Although on the same note how much longer will the affliction on the large rwd saloon last for?

[Martin_D]

Its interesting how many people seem scared of FWD cars...or dont like them...
Unless you use your car on the racetrack whats the big deal?
Both are crap in reality, AWD is the way to go....and its a bloody shame Holden never released the VY/VZ SS AWD as was initially planned. Imagine how many quick ones there would have been at the drags by now :cool:

[Ghia351]

My thoughts are that the very obvious Ford fanboyz on this Holden forum will get upset again for you mentioning what nearly every enthusiast already knows Aus, and will spit their dummies into the bath water.
With the current horrid sales volumes bleeding to (mostly) the small and SUV classes, continued high Aussie dollar, continually shrinking Falcon product range and no hope of exports, they were gone ages ago. Pulling planned Focus production has also made the very future of Broadmeadows production iffy indeed.
We're not the first country to suffer manufacturing pain, and we certainly wont be the last. When you have manufacturers chasing as much profit as possible, and consumers trying to chase the cheapest deals possible, the end result is, however undesirable, rather inevitable...And if Holden can't repeatedly secure Fed government funding what do you think will happen there as well? Ford US got squeezed into putting in $50 million and the feds/state the rest to secure falcon until 2016, which was always going to be the all-new replacement date anyway, what-ever form that was to be. The Cruze production only occurred due to direct government funding as GM has a plant in Korea more then willing to take over. The high Aust dollar actually has helped Holden in the Cruze's case as importing all the components probably balances out the higher assembly costs of putting it together here. With the Malibu coming, will this take sales away from Commodore even further or bring in a whole new volume of car buyers? . And if government funding doesn't get to the level required will Holden be able to justify manufacturing? Even Toyota has plants round the world building the same products so eventually the balance between staying and going could fall towards the side where payouts to staff and closing down is cheaper then staying. No company is safe and relying on government handouts to make business plans succeed won't go on for ever. Plus how many new models are coming into Australia this year alone? It's staggering what range we actually have here compared to 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. And high $Aust is predicted for years to come.
Edit: One Ford doesn't mean you take a whole car and maybe alter some parts for local use, it also means sharing suppliers, powertrains, electrical systems, etc...in fact the top hat of a car is probably the cheapest part of development.

[zorro]

Its interesting how many people seem scared of FWD cars...or dont like them...
Unless you use your car on the racetrack whats the big deal?
Both are crap in reality, AWD is the way to go....and its a bloody shame Holden never released the VY/VZ SS AWD as was initially planned. Imagine how many quick ones there would have been at the drags by now :cool:

I'm not the greatest fan of fwd however the majority of them I've driven from mid 80s cordias/pulsars to modern things like Camry etc I'm yet to find anything I really enjoy from the driving dynamics. Aside from maybe the old mini coopers or a mates proton track car I'm not tickled at all.

An all four cruise would be cool, all four commodore not so.

Once the house is built I'll be looking at an Audi or the likes, they are making some great diesels at the minute and awd.

[Woodchukka]

Its interesting how many people seem scared of FWD cars...or dont like them...
Unless you use your car on the racetrack whats the big deal?
Both are crap in reality, AWD is the way to go....and its a bloody shame Holden never released the VY/VZ SS AWD as was initially planned. Imagine how many quick ones there would have been at the drags by now :cool:

Can't really argue there however I do like the RWD platform and how it behaves.

[planetdavo]

And if Holden can't repeatedly secure Fed government funding what do you think will happen there as well? Ford US got squeezed into putting in $50 million and the feds/state the rest to secure falcon until 2016, which was always going to be the all-new replacement date anyway, what-ever form that was to be. The Cruze production only occurred due to direct government funding as GM has a plant in Korea more then willing to take over. The high Aust dollar actually has helped Holden in the Cruze's case as importing all the components probably balances out the higher assembly costs of putting it together here. With the Malibu coming, will this take sales away from Commodore even further or bring in a whole new volume of car buyers? . And if government funding doesn't get to the level required will Holden be able to justify manufacturing? Even Toyota has plants round the world building the same products so eventually the balance between staying and going could fall towards the side where payouts to staff and closing down is cheaper then staying. No company is safe and relying on government handouts to make business plans succeed won't go on for ever. Plus how many new models are coming into Australia this year alone? It's staggering what range we actually have here compared to 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. And high $Aust is predicted for years to come.
Edit: One Ford doesn't mean you take a whole car and maybe alter some parts for local use, it also means sharing suppliers, powertrains, electrical systems, etc...in fact the top hat of a car is probably the cheapest part of development.

I thought you might be one of them...;)
Of course you are right about Holden manufacturing having an iffy long term future here, but what you fail to mention is that ALL manufacturing in this country is on borrowed time. If Aussies keep damanding a high wage, and keep hoping for a high Aus dollar to make their flat screen TV's and overseas holidays cheaper, then the end result is inevitable...
Where your favourite brand has let the local team down BADLY is HQ showing no interest in exporting our cars when the dollar was much lower, and their local product was far superior to anything available overseas. Holden sent Monaro's and VE's overseas, and really only suffered because of the fallout of the GFC. All those cars being exported led to more money being available for continued locally developed models. All Ford HQ showed any interest in was using the local engineering brains trust to develop foreign manufactured vehicles. Clear as day they really couldn't care less if the local manufacturing operation is shut down. They already tried to once! (in MUCH healthier times for Falcon)
The Cruze example isn't exactly correct. Yes the high dollar makes the components cheaper, but it also makes fully assembled imported cars cheaper. The decision was made long ago when the dollar was lower, so it affects both options. The main benefit of local production of Cruze, besides ensuring the Elizabeth plant runs at decent capacity, is that they are able to re-jig production far more rapidly for changing buyer tastes than imported options can do. If people suddenly all want CDX's and SRI-V's then they can make it happen far easier. Less wait...more sales. More sales...more jobs, and yes, Cruze does have increasing local OEM suppliers rather than just CKD kit parts from overseas. Government money did indeed help bring Cruze into local production, but one doesn't just send a text message to the government and they send you 100 million via direct deposit...:)
Camry Hybrid got money for local introduction via the Green Car Fund too, and most likely Focus would have too, if it didn't turn stillborn. They ALL get money my friend, just like they do in most parts of the world to have a car industry...:yup:

[Ghia351]

I thought you might be one of them...;)
Of course you are right about Holden manufacturing having an iffy long term future here, but what you fail to mention is that ALL manufacturing in this country is on borrowed time. If Aussies keep damanding a high wage, and keep hoping for a high Aus dollar to make their flat screen TV's and overseas holidays cheaper, then the end result is inevitable...
Where your favourite brand has let the local team down BADLY is HQ showing no interest in exporting our cars when the dollar was much lower, and their local product was far superior to anything available overseas. Holden sent Monaro's and VE's overseas, and really only suffered because of the fallout of the GFC. All those cars being exported led to more money being available for continued locally developed models. All Ford HQ showed any interest in was using the local engineering brains trust to develop foreign manufactured vehicles. Clear as day they really couldn't care less if the local manufacturing operation is shut down. They already tried to once! (in MUCH healthier times for Falcon)
The Cruze example isn't exactly correct. Yes the high dollar makes the components cheaper, but it also makes fully assembled imported cars cheaper. The decision was made long ago when the dollar was lower, so it affects both options. The main benefit of local production of Cruze, besides ensuring the Elizabeth plant runs at decent capacity, is that they are able to re-jig production far more rapidly for changing buyer tastes than imported options can do. If people suddenly all want CDX's and SRI-V's then they can make it happen far easier. Less wait...more sales. More sales...more jobs, and yes, Cruze does have increasing local OEM suppliers rather than just CKD kit parts from overseas. Government money did indeed help bring Cruze into local production, but one doesn't just send a text message to the government and they send you 100 million via direct deposit...:)
Camry Hybrid got money for local introduction via the Green Car Fund too, and most likely Focus would have too, if it didn't turn stillborn. They ALL get money my friend, just like they do in most parts of the world to have a car industry...:yup:No my friend I didn't fail to mention anything about all manufacturing because we're here on a car forum. I am a manufacturer in Aust so I know exactly where we are headed. Although ironically my raw material costs sure haven't dropped in inverse proportion to the $Aust dollar's climb.:cussing:

Obviously one doesn't send a text for local funding assistance, one get's US parent to say "we're going to let it go with Bad GM" because the US Government bailout isn't going to use US taxpayer's money to keep it afloat. Could you imagine an Aust government letting Holden go belly-up before an election. The rest is history, lol. As to Holden exporting anything, my dear friend you fail to mention the sole reason Holden got the gig. GM dropped all rwd mid/large cars hence allowing Holden the opportunity to export in the first place as they were the only division still producing anything RWD. Ford Aust never had that luxury handed on a platter because Ford US exported their own us-built cars until last year and have stalled any GRWD program since. Ford US got into trouble before GM and nothing was going to hurt that recovery at the time. Do you really think GM would have let Holden export anything at the expence of it's own production? Sure anything Aust built would be better but a crap US-built car means it's US workers building it. A GM US job in GM's recent ownership situation is still far more powerful then a Holden job. Ford US is also not going to sacrifice a US job over any other country as well. Heck, if not for the Aust Fed's, Holden wasn't even going to stay within New GM post chapter 11 bankruptcy restructuring. Even now the Caprice ppv is stalling as Chrysler and Ford are far cheaper, are built locally and US police forces are not cash rich.

My biggest concern is what will we do for employment if manufacturing keeps dropping or what do we all do when the resources boom ends, as it will eventually. On a far side note, if Gina Reinhart has issues like those publicised with her kids, how would she treat her workers, lol?

[lmoengnr]

On a far side note, if Gina Reinhart has issues like those publicised with her kids, how would she treat her workers, lol?


That's already a known point....... She wants to import her 'cheap' workforce on 457 visas.......

[Ghia351]

That's already a known point....... She wants to import her 'cheap' workforce on 457 visas.......Warren Buffets quote for such people of inherited wealth, ''members of the lucky sperm club''.

[Jac001]

Do you really think GM would have let Holden export anything at the expence of it's own production?

I don't know how Ford works, but what you describe isn't how GM worked pre-GFC.

Pre-GFC, GM corp never really dictated to any divison what they could export (or even build for that matter). It was up to each divison to make a soild business case and to be profitable. Holden could choose to import cars from any GM factory (and over the years they have, remember the Holden Shuttle, Piazza, Frontera, Suburban, Zafira?? :)), likewise any GM divison could import the commodore etc if they wanted too. Hence why over the years Commodores have been exported to places like Singapore, and even the locally assembled Vectra was sent to japan for a very short while.

GM middle east (GM ME) didn't have to buy the commodore/ caprice, but by the very late 90's early 2000's there was a better business case to import the large car from Australia than import the Impala from the US. Prior to this the impala was GM ME's large car until it went out of production in 96 and when re-released in early 2000's, Gm ME were happy to stay with the commodore. (You will notice that GM ME never sold commodore utes or wagon, just SWB/LWB sedans.) As the $AU has risen the commodore (badged as a chevy lumina) has been dropped by GM ME as the business case no longer makes it profitable, but the caprice currently remains.

It was Bob Lutz that forght and spearheaded the export of the monaro to the US as a GTO and later the Commodore / G8 program as he helped make the business case for both holden and pontiac. Its why you see vauxhall sell the VXR8 in the UK but you don't see Opel sell it in the EU, its why brazil sells the commodore sedan but not the other body sytles, why GM South Africa sells the sedan and ute but not the wagon or LWB etc etc. Each divison picks and chooses what it wants to sell based on what they think is a good fit for its business and region.

Being the only RWD sedan did make the commodore more attractive to many markets but export deals weren't handed to it. Other wise the commodore would appear in many of the 130+ countires that GM sell in, where as the commodore is lucky to have been sold in 35 or so countries in the last 30 years.

(The idea behind this was to make ever GM divison and factory compete against themselves and over time only the most effecient would remain. Over the years GM NA has closed many factories in the US, just as holden has shut down all but the Elizabeth assembly plant).

Obvisouly this has all changed after the GFC and subsequent bankrupcy and bailout. GM corp has restructurered the divsions and reduced overlap.

[Martin_D]

Obvisouly this has all changed after the GFC and subsequent bankrupcy and bailout. GM corp has restructurered the divsions and reduced overlap.

And if/when the Aussie taxpayers get sick of paying to keep Holden afloat (as we have been blackmailed into as a community by the Cocker Spaniel that runs the country) - the Yanks WILL give them the shit end of the stick. Simple as that. If GM aren't paid by us to be here, they won't be. Why would they be when the Chinese arm is paying them many, many times more to manufacture there without all the union red tape...? :teach:

Holden is about as Aussie as a Taco/crossed with a Philly Cheese steak and topped with black bean sauce (ie. not at all anyomore)
They should be accountable to us, not the other way around.

[Jac001]

And if/when the Aussie taxpayers get sick of paying to keep Holden afloat (as we have been blackmailed into as a community by the Cocker Spaniel that runs the country) - the Yanks WILL give them the shit end of the stick. Simple as that. If GM aren't paid by us to be here, they won't be. Why would they be when the Chinese arm is paying them many, many times more to manufacture there without all the union red tape...? :teach:

Holden is about as Aussie as a Taco/crossed with a Philly Cheese steak and topped with black bean sauce (ie. not at all anyomore)
They should be accountable to us, not the other way around.

As you know the global automotive industry have been blackmailing governments for protection (via tariffs, tax concessions, and handouts) since before ww1! This isn't something new.

Would Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Subaru, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai and Kia have set up plants in the US & Canada without very generous tax payer handouts and tax concessions (in some cases lasting decades)?

After a decade or two after GM, Ford and Toyota stop manufacturing in Australia they too will be forgiven just like the public has forgiven VW, Mitsubishi and Nissan. (And yes Nissan, Mitsubishi and VW got plenty of protection from the oz government too).

The Chinese government however has been very smart, not only have they attracted Automotive manufacturers to set up shop but they must also pair with a local manufacturers and share technology and patents. Yes, its cost the Chinese governments billions and billions of dollars but the multiplier effect has meant that that the nation has prospered.

Once the mining boom is over Australia will become the next Nauru; no one will want to come visits the slums that we have created for ourselves, we wont have a manufacturing industry, we are selling off agricultural industry so other nations can sure up their own food supply and even now foreign students aren't impressed with the level of education offered at our uni's and its only getting worse....

[Martin_D]

The Chinese government however has been very smart, not only have they attracted Automotive manufacturers to set up shop but they must also pair with a local manufacturers and share technology and patents. Yes, its cost the Chinese governments billions and billions of dollars but the multiplier effect has meant that that the nation has prospered.....

This is the way handouts SHOULD be given.
Instead we get Gillards vision of the Cruze being the Australian Communist working mans Trabant, all the while having money funnelled off directly Stateside.

[Jac001]

This is the way handouts SHOULD be given.
Instead we get Gillards vision of the Cruze being the Australian Communist working mans Trabant, all the while having money funnelled off directly Stateside.

How was funding for the cruze any different to how the Howard government funded the car industry?

My understanding was for holden and other car manufacturers to get this money they also had to invest money of their own (ie co-investment), is this incorrect?

[Martin_D]

How was funding for the cruze any different to how the Howard government funded the car industry?

Because this time it was a political stunt to catch out Mum and Dad voters that dont know any different. Cruze was already being built better and cheaper in Thailand, which gave the dealer a much greater margin and kept the sales staff in jobs. Now the margins are much slimmer....

[Jac001]

Because this time it was a political stunt to catch out Mum and Dad voters that dont know any different. Cruze was already being built better and cheaper in Thailand, which gave the dealer a much greater margin and kept the sales staff in jobs. Now the margins are much slimmer....

So holden had to produce the 3:1 ratio to get the $150M from the government? Some of the work in setting up cruze for production was subcontracted local engineering companies, not to mention most articles put the local content of the cruze at ~ 40-50%, yet you would prefer 0% local content and bigger margins for dealers? that soudns rather odd.

By the way do you have any stats on the quality of Thai built cruze against the Australian built one? Or are you refering the Korean one?

The cruze didn't go into production in thailand until the end of 2010 http://motoren.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/chevrolet-launches-the-cruze-in-thailand/ Which was only a couple of months before the series 2 cruze started production in Australia.

The Thai plant don't make the hatchback so where would it be sourced from? Korea?

[Martin_D]

It makes no sense to fund Cruze in Australia when its being made directly across the water cheaper and arguably better (have owned new Korean built cars and new Aussie cars before and know the quality difference...)

I think the majority of us would have been happier with $150m put into Commodore technologies such as a diesel option, hybrid/kers system, dct integration etc rather than building an existing Daewoo in Australia. Alas it would seem everyone wants Commodore and Falcon dead - hence there is no further development occurring.

[planetdavo]

Martin, you are kidding yourself if you think there is any difference between one country giving some tax money back to a manufacturer, and another country giving said manufacturer a tax break of equal value. If the net value is the same either way then either option is the same value at the end of the day...:confused:
If you reckon the local JH Cruze has poorer build quality than the import JG Cruze I suggest you need to get out more. That's one of the most generalised (and unfounded) comments you've ever made. Whatever your previous experience of whatever form with OTHER cars from the two countries has been like has no relevance to Cruze!!
Also think you are kidding yourself if you reckon spending vast dollars on things like diesel options, hybrid/kers system, dct etc is what the majority want. They are all minority wants. What the majority clearly wants are small cars and SUV's...

[Jac001]

It makes no sense to fund Cruze in Australia when its being made directly across the water cheaper and arguably better (have owned new Korean built cars and new Aussie cars before and know the quality difference...)

I think the majority of us would have been happier with $150m put into Commodore technologies such as a diesel option, hybrid/kers system, dct integration etc rather than building an existing Daewoo in Australia. Alas it would seem everyone wants Commodore and Falcon dead - hence there is no further development occurring.

Thats a fair point. Should the government support the camry when it could just be imported from thailand? Both sides of governemnt beleive that investing in manufacturing is more than just getting the end product to market.

The real question is would a diesel or hybrid commodore have sold more units overall? Has the LPG version of the falcon increased sales? Has the diesel version of the territory increased sales? Has the hybrid version of the camry helped it increase overall sales?

If not, what makes you beleive that a diesel or hybrid commodore would increase overall sales?

In relation to further investment i was under the impression that VF (a minor facelift) was getting $120M ($40M from the gov) to make it lighter via some aluminium panels? (in additon to what ever else is being spent on bringing it to market).

Sales of large mainstream cars (non luxury) (think avalon, taurus, charger, 300c, implala, accord, maxima) are all going backwards in the US which is the worlds largest 'large (non luxury) car' market. Similarly large mainstream cars aren't selling well in Australia. Europe, most of asia, south America and Africa don't sell many either. There is a real possibility that in the next decade we won't see any of these cars in production anywhere in the world.

[Martin_D]

All very true
The large sedan market needs a kickstart! :)

[Martin_D]

Davo, maybe folks buy SUVs and smaller cars because they offer better driveline options and use less fuel.
I know when we buy work utes Commodore doesnt get a look in as the V6 option is useless compared to the majority of turbo diesels out there - makes no grunt and drinks like a fish. The V8 is just a curiousity, the odd rev head buys it but very few companies use them as a serious workhorse...because they arent.
P.S. We buy Tritons, $22K drive away with a tray and 2.5 turbo diesel :)
Holden option is too expensive and doesnt deliver in comparison

When Aussie build quality matches Korean build quality I will eat my hat.
You can bring the knife and fork :cool:
(Best thing that ever happened to Nissan build quality was shutting the Aussie plant)

[Ghia351]

Good points Jac001.
One tidbit I discovered, Ford sold just over 73,000 Taurus last year, a car bigger then a Falcon. Per cap that's the equivalent of Ford Aust selling just over 4000 Falcons in one whole year. The Mustang outsold it. Or to put it another way, on a per cap basis, Ford US should have sold over 380,000 Taurus to match the per cap sales of Falcon for last year, and Falcon had a shocker. Clearly cars of this size, globally are just not major sellers.

[planetdavo]

All very true
The large sedan market needs a kickstart! :)

Heavy traffic in most cities, small parking spots, high fuel costs, most people don't drive big distances on annual Christmas holidays anymore, many are loaned to the hilt buying their McMansions and can't afford bigger, more expensive cars, user chooser fleets, "snob value" of imports, many don't buy "what their Dad used to buy" anymore....the list could go on for a week. Product quality thoughts are also a factor for some...not most.
We arguably have the best featured, most advanced, most economical and best value large cars we've ever had in this country, yet they still don't sell like they used to. I believe we are seeing generational change in Australian buying habits, NOT "most" people feeling the current options are poor value for money or lacking many "expected" options...
We've really become more like the rest of the world in many ways, rather than being uniquely "Australian". That's the industry's biggest problem.

[Martin_D]

Heavy traffic in most cities, small parking spots, high fuel costs, most people don't drive big distances on annual Christmas holidays anymore, many are loaned to the hilt buying their McMansions and can't afford bigger, more expensive cars, user chooser fleets, "snob value" of imports, many don't buy "what their Dad used to buy" anymore....the list could go on for a week. Product quality thoughts are also a factor for some...not most.
We arguably have the best featured, most advanced, most economical and best value large cars we've ever had in this country, yet they still don't sell like they used to. I believe we are seeing generational change in Australian buying habits, NOT "most" people feeling the current options are poor value for money or lacking many "expected" options...
We've really become more like the rest of the world in many ways, rather than being uniquely "Australian". That's the industry's biggest problem.

All that and the local product is becoming very old-hat very fast
VE is coming up for its 6th birthday with essentially zero upgrades of any note. FG is still based on the AU.
No one likes to eat stale bread when the imported stuff is so fresh, vital (and cheap) in comparison.

We are charged way too much for these cars, hence no one buys them
Drop the price 25% and see what happens! :teach:

[planetdavo]

I know when we buy work utes Commodore doesnt get a look in as the V6 option is useless compared to the majority of turbo diesels out there - makes no grunt and drinks like a fish. The V8 is just a curiousity, the odd rev head buys it but very few companies use them as a serious workhorse...because they arent.
P.S. We buy Tritons, $22K drive away with a tray and 2.5 turbo diesel :)
Holden option is too expensive and doesnt deliver in comparison



Colorado looks after the diesel one tonner market. That's why Holden chased the predominantly recreational ute buying market with higher margin "sports" VE utes...

[Ghia351]

All that and the local product is becoming very old-hat very fast
VE is coming up for its 6th birthday with essentially zero upgrades of any note. FG is still based on the AU.
No one likes to eat stale bread when the imported stuff is so fresh, vital (and cheap) in comparison.

We are charged way too much for these cars, hence no one buys them
Drop the price 25% and see what happens! :teach:Only problem is you destroy any ROI and you won't have any car producers here anwyay.

[planetdavo]

All that and the local product is becoming very old-hat very fast
VE is coming up for its 6th birthday with essentially zero upgrades of any note. FG is still based on the AU.
No one likes to eat stale bread when the imported stuff is so fresh and vital in comparison.

Aussie cars have NEVER been cutting edge Martin. Honest, roomy, comfy, affordable big cars, because Australia does it better than the rest of the world. A large local car for the price of an imported medium car. A bit rough around the edges maybe, but a LOT of metal for the money.
You simply crave a different dish, as you have every right to do, but you shouldn't belittle the industry because of it. If people don't want the local dish in sufficient numbers then the end result is inevitable. That's how the world works. No amount of "tech" will make most people buy a size or shape car they don't want...

[planetdavo]

Good points Jac001.
One tidbit I discovered, Ford sold just over 73,000 Taurus last year, a car bigger then a Falcon. Per cap that's the equivalent of Ford Aust selling just over 4000 Falcons in one whole year. The Mustang outsold it. Or to put it another way, on a per cap basis, Ford US should have sold over 380,000 Taurus to match the per cap sales of Falcon for last year, and Falcon had a shocker. Clearly cars of this size, globally are just not major sellers.

Either fully importing or locally assembling said US car (with at best minor sheet metal changes) in Australia would improve the volumes, hence improve the return on investment (as is expected to happen).
Falcon's problem is that virtually EVERYTHING has to engineered to a unique car sold nowhere else in the world. Falcon really needed to at least start using a global 6 cyl engine family years ago, so they could spend engine development money on other areas instead. The revolving door of bosses and lack of HQ support has done them no favours at all. Holden have access to so much cheap "ready to go" 6 cyl upgrade tech, as we've seen with all the upgrades over the last few years. Ford Aus have to do it all themselves, and that consumes a lot more money.
Now, more than ever, it's all about getting maximum volume.

[seldo]

Aussie cars have NEVER been cutting edge Martin. Honest, roomy, comfy, affordable big cars, because Australia does it better than the rest of the world. A large local car for the price of an imported medium car. A bit rough around the edges maybe, but a LOT of metal for the money.
You simply crave a different dish, as you have every right to do, but you shouldn't belittle the industry because of it. If people don't want the local dish in sufficient numbers then the end result is inevitable. That's how the world works. No amount of "tech" will make most people buy a size or shape car they don't want...But Davo - it's no coincidence that the almost exponential rise in the popularity of 4wds (I can't stand the US term SUV) has paralleled the decline in popularity of our large cars. As our Commocans have followed a steady as she goes design philosophy, the 4wd market has leapt forward in leaps and bounds. Just think back a bit, say 20 years, and compare the driving experience between a Commodore and a HiLux/Cruiser/Patrol/Landy etc, and then think about the comparison today.
Back then, you'd be dirty if your boss said you had to drive a leaf-sprung FJ50 (or whatever they were then) as a daily vs a Coomodore, but today, the Cruiser is not a bad ride at all, so people are now able to justify the dual purpose role of a current 4by which has all the bells and whistles (and more) of the local car, and what's more - your missus actually likes driving it.
It's just that our product has failed to move sufficiently with the times.

[Jag530G]

But Davo - it's no coincidence that the almost exponential rise in the popularity of 4wds (I can't stand the US term SUV) has paralleled the decline in popularity of our large cars. As our Commocans have followed a steady as she goes design philosophy, the 4wd market has leapt forward in leaps and bounds. Just think back a bit, say 20 years, and compare the driving experience between a Commodore and a HiLux/Cruiser/Patrol/Landy etc, and then think about the comparison today.
Back then, you'd be dirty if your boss said you had to drive a leaf-sprung FJ50 (or whatever they were then) as a daily vs a Coomodore, but today, the Cruiser is not a bad ride at all, so people are now able to justify the dual purpose role of a current 4by which has all the bells and whistles (and more) of the local car, and what's more - your missus actually likes driving it.
It's just that our product has failed to move sufficiently with the times.

Imagine the situation Ford would have been in if they started building a Territory back in the EA-EL era, miles better off than were they are now. Simply didn't see the future. I grew up in Shepparton and in the 70's and 80s the reasonably well to do farmers seemed to drive Fairlanes/LTDs yet even by the late 80s/early 90s they were moving towards Landcruiser Saharas. The loss of Fairlane/LTD sales would have been a big kick in the guts to Ford as that car had the biggest profit margins for them.

Cheers, Matthew

[planetdavo]

But Davo - it's no coincidence that the almost exponential rise in the popularity of 4wds (I can't stand the US term SUV) has paralleled the decline in popularity of our large cars. As our Commocans have followed a steady as she goes design philosophy, the 4wd market has leapt forward in leaps and bounds. Just think back a bit, say 20 years, and compare the driving experience between a Commodore and a HiLux/Cruiser/Patrol/Landy etc, and then think about the comparison today.
Back then, you'd be dirty if your boss said you had to drive a leaf-sprung FJ50 (or whatever they were then) as a daily vs a Coomodore, but today, the Cruiser is not a bad ride at all, so people are now able to justify the dual purpose role of a current 4by which has all the bells and whistles (and more) of the local car, and what's more - your missus actually likes driving it.
It's just that our product has failed to move sufficiently with the times.

I'm not sure what your point is Seldo. Many people like high riding "SUV's" (I also hate that US term), but Aussie cars will NEVER be that sort of vehicle in current times. If they were they would be making the same vehicles already available (Captiva), or coming (Colorado based wagon), so there was NO CHANCE of a high riding VE based vehicle being produced. As I said earlier, we have an industry mostly because we produce a type of vehicle pretty much the rest of the world don't. If we try to make the same vehicles as the rest of the world we have instantly killed our industry, as it's simply a duplication of existing options...

[macca_779]

Is a Cts caddy very distant from a commy Davo. I know which I'd prefer hands down


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[planetdavo]

Is a Cts caddy very distant from a commy Davo. I know which I'd prefer hands down


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CTS had a noticeably smaller cabin than VE, and would have been premium priced mac. It was also very "American" in it's styling. In fact, the CTS Sigma chassis was already rejected as too small for Australia when Holden was looking through it's VE chassis options, hence the development of the Zeta.
Apples and oranges...

[macca_779]

CTS had a noticeably smaller cabin than VE, and would have been premium priced mac. It was also very "American" in it's styling. In fact, the CTS Sigma chassis was already rejected as too small for Australia when Holden was looking through it's VE chassis options, hence the development of the Zeta.
Apples and oranges...

You sure it's to small. The market is trending otherwise. They also look 1 million times better than a Ve. The interior alone is just pure money. When I can get a Cts-v for under 70k I wouldn't call that premiumly priced compared to what we pay here for shit.

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/p/A/1/09_ctsv_interior.jpg


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[planetdavo]

You sure it's to small. The market is trending otherwise. They also look 1 million times better than a Ve. The interior alone is just pure money. When I can get a Cts-v for under 70k I wouldn't call that premiumly priced compared to what we pay here for shit.


It's a HUGE jump from a mid 30's-low 50's VE to a 70 ish CTS macca. One would EXPECT an extra 20-30K to buy a more premium interior.

[macca_779]

It's a HUGE jump from a mid 30's-low 50's VE to a 70 ish CTS macca. One would EXPECT an extra 20-30K to buy a more premium interior.

70 for a V Davo. You know the fastest sedan around the ring in all it's LSA powered glory. Its AMG / M territory and it's faster FFS. The plain CTS is Calais territory and some at omega money, around 35k. Having been to the USA and actually been to a dealer they make Holden look stupid.


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[planetdavo]

70 for a V Davo. You know the fastest sedan around the ring in all it's LSA powered glory. Its AMG / M territory and it's faster FFS. The plain CTS is Calais territory and some at omega money, around 35k. Having been to the USA and actually been to a dealer they make Holden look stupid.


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The US pricing vs Aus pricing has been done TO DEATH macca. You know as well as I do that a V has NO CHANCE of being anywhere close to 70K in Aus. Maybe start at 100K. Then go back to my previous answer...

[macca_779]

The US pricing vs Aus pricing has been done TO DEATH macca. You know as well as I do that a V has NO CHANCE of being anywhere close to 70K in Aus. Maybe start at 100K. Then go back to my previous answer...

It doesn't have to be though is the point. We pay more for less simple as that and it's no wonder our local product is going to shit. It's because it is. Even a CTS plus 10k across all models would make them profitable


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[planetdavo]

It doesn't have to be though is the point. We pay more for less simple as that and it's no wonder our local product is going to shit. It's because it is. Even a CTS plus 10k across all models would make them profitable


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Cadillac was pulled because GM knew there was no market for them once the GFC arrived. Pretty simple story really. They were, and always will be, a class above VE. They are a premium priced line. Would most people buy a CTS rather than a Caprice for the same money?
Nope.

[macca_779]

Cadillac was pulled because GM knew there was no market for them once the GFC arrived. Pretty simple story really. They were, and always will be, a class above VE. They are a premium priced line. Would most people buy a CTS rather than a Caprice for the same money?
Nope.

What are you on about pulled. Pontiac was pulled. Cadalic is still the premium brand to this day.

CTS is short wheelbase. So comparing that to a caprice is silly.

STS would be more relevant there. DTS would be ok for the PM (good enough for Obama). Would they pay the same money, I sure as hell would.


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[serial_fool]

Funny how the Australian media never speculated this hard when GM were pondering shutting down Holden completely in 2008....

Of course, lots of government assistance in the forms of readily available lines of credit prevented that.

[Jag530G]

What are you on about pulled. Pontiac was pulled. Cadalic is still the premium brand to this day.

CTS is short wheelbase. So comparing that to a caprice is silly.

STS would be more relevant there. DTS would be ok for the PM (good enough for Obama). Would they pay the same money, I sure as hell would.


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Davo is talking about Cadillac being pulled from the Australian market, it nearly came here in 2008/09 but was cancelled at the last minute. I personally think when the Commodore dies and is replaced with the Chevy Malibu/Impala, this will open up market space for the Cadillac range.

The STS and DTS have been jointly replaced by the XTS, front wheel drive 3.6L HFV6, no V8, built on a stretched Epsilon platform (this platform is shared with the Chevy Malibu and Opel Insignia albeit is short wheel base form). The glasshouse looks somewhat similar to a WM Caprice but the interior is in another world of quality.

The next CTS will grow in size as currently it sits somewhere between a 3 and 5 series BMW but Cadillac have just released the ATS small car to compete directly with the 3 series. Incidently the ATS is based on the Alpha platform which is essentially what the Holden Torana TT36 show car was an early version of.

You are kidding yourself if you think a CTS-V will come here in the future for $70K in today's dollars. The next CTS will grow in size and compete directly with the 5 Series, E Class, XF and A6 then you will expect the CTS-V to be well north of $150K (the E63, M5, XFR and RS6 are all north of $200K). You would probably get a CTS 3.6L HFV6 for $70K but thats it.

Cheers, Matthew

[macca_779]

Of course it won't be 70k. Doesn't change the fact that is all its sold for over there and could be sold for here.


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[macca_779]

Screw waiting for Holden to wake up. I'll import my own

http://carscoop.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/cadillac-refocuses-on-global-markets-is.html


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[zorro]

I've seen 2 here in melb Ryan, good looking rigs to be honest.

[macca_779]

I've seen 2 here in melb Ryan, good looking rigs to be honest.
Yes they are. Subtle of sorts but brutal. HSV dropping an LSA into a Senator would be getting close to it. But I'd still rather the caddy for the toys on board


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[BEARWOOD]

Screw waiting for Holden to wake up. I'll import my own

http://carscoop.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/cadillac-refocuses-on-global-markets-is.html


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Ye good luck with that, make sure you let everyone know how that works out for you. Some of the things you have said are just unrealistic and pointless, just because they sell a car at a certain price in the USA doesnt mean its possible to sell it here at the same price surely you know that. What sort of car do you drive at the moment?

[macca_779]

If importing one you would get it from the UK. I drive a VT senator. What's your point?


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[shaneooo]

Interesting thread, however I really can't see the Commodore living far beyond 2016 once Falcon goes.

[BEARWOOD]

[QUOTE=macca_779;2002888]If importing one you would get it from the UK. I drive a VT senator. What's your point?


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My point is even if you really were looking at importing one it won't happen anytime soon, if ever. The other part of my point is that you drive around in a 10 year old Holden/HSV and bag the shit out of them for what they haven't done, maybe try owning one of the new models for a while just to see how far they have come. I've owned a VU,VY,VZ & now a VE and although the plasticky interior still annoys me the car on a whole has definately gotten better & is good value if you don't pay full RRP.

"When I can get a Cts-v for under 70k I wouldn't call that premiumly priced compared to what we pay here for shit".
Can you let me know when you're driving this around in Australia for that price coz i'll take 2.

[macca_779]

O so just because I own a 12 year old car I know nothing. Give me a farking break. Been around plenty of current model cars and I could if I choose buy a new Senator cash. The reason I have that kind of cash is because I don't choose to spend it on something I see no value in. A CTS-V I do see value in. In fact if I get a position in the USA in a couple of years. I will buy one outright for my time there.


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[BEARWOOD]

O so just because I own a 12 year old car I know nothing. Give me a farking break. Been around plenty of current model cars and I could if I choose buy a new Senator cash. The reason I have that kind of cash is because I don't choose to spend it on something I see no value in. A CTS-V I do see value in. In fact if I get a position in the USA in a couple of years. I will buy one outright for my time there.


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No, thats not what i said but interpret it how you like... I said if you "owned one" for a while you might see that they have come along in the last 10/15 years and represent good value if you get them at a good price. I payed 45k for a brand new SSV with a few extras and to me thats good value.

Once again i ask...
"When I can get a Cts-v for under 70k I wouldn't call that premiumly priced compared to what we pay here for shit".
Can you let me know when you're driving this around in Australia for that price coz i'll take 2.

Oh ye, i could buy any of these cars "for cash" any day of the week after buying 2 new cars also with "cash" but i don't feel the need to big note about it....

[Carby]

Its interesting how many people seem scared of FWD cars...or dont like them...
Unless you use your car on the racetrack whats the big deal?
Both are crap in reality, AWD is the way to go....and its a bloody shame Holden never released the VY/VZ SS AWD as was initially planned. Imagine how many quick ones there would have been at the drags by now :cool:

What a naive statement! Both crap are they ? Only people who go rallying for need AWD or those who can't drive in the rain. FWD has Packaging benefits, RWD has entertainment and handling attributes and all an AWD system does for the average Joe is increase weight with the unwanted increased fuel consumption that comes with it.

GTR's aren't the be all and end all Chum!

[macca_779]

No, thats not what i said but interpret it how you like... I said if you "owned one" for a while you might see that they have come along in the last 10/15 years and represent good value if you get them at a good price. I payed 45k for a brand new SSV with a few extras and to me thats good value.

Once again i ask...
"When I can get a Cts-v for under 70k I wouldn't call that premiumly priced compared to what we pay here for shit".
Can you let me know when you're driving this around in Australia for that price coz i'll take 2.

Oh ye, i could buy any of these cars "for cash" any day of the week after buying 2 new cars also with "cash" but i don't feel the need to big note about it....

That's how I interpreted it yes.

I fully appreciate how far the cars have come. But I fail to see value in them compared to buying used.

Wasn't big noting. Just retorting to your insult that just because I drive an old car I must not have a clue what new cars are like. That's how you came across.

I've got plenty of wheel time in new models. I find them more refined yes. But also boring and of cheap quality for the money.

So until I get the opportunity to get my dream CTS-V car I will continue to drive around in old shit boxes that to me represent good value. You can enjoy your good value piece of shit VE SSV. I'll enjoy my older clapped out piece of shit VT Senator of better value IMO.

[Martin_D]

Only people who go rallying for need AWD or those who can't drive in the rain. FWD has Packaging benefits, RWD has entertainment and handling attributes and all an AWD system does for the average Joe is increase weight with the unwanted increased fuel consumption that comes with it.
GTR's aren't the be all and end all Chum!

On real roads, with real tyres, performance AWD tears performance RWD a new backside.

I apologise now if you go through a set of rear tyres every 500km and hold 45 degree powerslides all the way to work in your Commy using all the - slow - entertainment RWD has on offer. Otherwise dont believe everything they tell you on Top Gear, there is a whole nother world out there :cool:

(Note: Nearly all of the impressive Commodores on this forum that could actually perform in street trim without special contrived track conditions, rubber, you name it, were AWD. Not one trick ponies)

[adr8]

Hello sir would you like some understeer with you 4WD? No, well too bad its standard with all the extra weight over the front wheels.

If 4WD is the bees nees then why is formula 1 still RWD. Every review I read comparing a Ferarri 458 to a Lambo Gallardo, the Ferarri comes out on top everytime. Why you might ask, because purists will agree nothing compares to the handling characteristics/dynamics that could only be obtained with a RWD layout.

[Martin_D]

Hello sir would you like some understeer with you 4WD? No, well too bad its standard with all the extra weight over the front wheels.
If 4WD is the bees nees then why is formula 1 still RWD. Every review I read comparing a Ferarri 458 to a Lambo Gallardo, the Ferarri comes out on top everytime. Why you might ask, because purists will agree nothing compares to the handling characteristics/dynamics that could only be obtained with a RWD layout.

You should get out and run your street car RWD at some track sprints, hillclimbs, tarmac events and actually see what street cars dominate them in local competition (hint: Not RWD). The purists must stay home for those?
- Dont read about cars, drive them -

If you want chronic understeer, take a Commodore or Falcon to the track.

[seldo]

Hello sir would you like some understeer with you 4WD? No, well too bad its standard with all the extra weight over the front wheels.

If 4WD is the bees nees then why is formula 1 still RWD. Every review I read comparing a Ferarri 458 to a Lambo Gallardo, the Ferarri comes out on top everytime. Why you might ask, because purists will agree nothing compares to the handling characteristics/dynamics that could only be obtained with a RWD layout.Sorry matey - anyone who belittles the advantages of AWD over a conventional RWD performance car, clearly has no idea of what they are talking about, and has certainly never driven one.
As Martin_D so eloquently puts it "....performance AWD tears performance RWD a new backside".
Welcome to the 21st century...

[Martin_D]

There is nothing inherently wrong with RWD, it does not mean a passport to oversteer (not that its a quick way anywhere regardless)
Most production RWD cars in steady state cornering understeer terribly. They are setup to in an attempt to protect the driver from themselves.
The concept of entertainment factor comes from watching television journalists attempt to power-oversteer RWD cars on disused runways. I am not sure what the relevence of that to actually - anything - really is, but still it puts bums in seats and sells magazines. Maybe thats the entertainment? :eek:

[adr8]

- Dont read about cars, drive them -.

So when is the last time you drove Gallardo? There is no denying the fact the 458 is a better handling car than the Gallardo so I dont know how you can make generalisations like "AWD tears performance RWD a new backside." & "Don't read about cars drive them" It is comments/generalisations like these that do nothing to substantiate you point of view or your credibility.

[Martin_D]

So when is the last time you drove Gallardo?

Four days ago - Gallardos are massive fun. More so than any VE I have owned, and there have been 3 of them :)

My generalisations come from racing an AWD car in local and national tarmac events (previously RWD)
In the street registered category its unusual to see a RWD car in the Top 10 anywhere.
They might be fun, but they arent fast if its the podium you seek.

I am not repeating what I read. I am repeating what I see and drive in/against.
Alas none of this will save Falcon, however Ford have a fantastic line-up at the moment.

[macca_779]

What about Porsche. They do pretty damn well with RWD when lined up with their AWD counterparts. All be it with a rear mount engine.

I do agree AWD performance cars are better. Just not as entertaining until you get right on their limit which means a lot more speed and balls. A 20 year old GTR is an amazing piece of kit even to this day. Power is good not breathtaking. But my god the grip.


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[adr8]

Sorry matey - anyone who belittles the advantages of AWD over a conventional RWD performance car, clearly has no idea of what they are talking about, and has certainly never driven one.
As Martin_D so eloquently puts it "....performance AWD tears performance RWD a new backside".
Welcome to the 21st century...

I have driven plenty of AWD and they are too nose heavy for my liking, just my opinion. I know it is the 21st Century maybe you should let the F1 boys know about this "new" technology called AWD...

[macca_779]

I have driven plenty of AWD and they are too nose heavy for my liking, just my opinion. I know it is the 21st Century maybe you should let the F1 boys know about this "new" technology called AWD...

What cars? A lot of AWDs behave like a FWD and even bias that way. Ie not a clear indication for performances based motoring.


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[Martin_D]

I have driven plenty of AWD and they are too nose heavy for my liking, just my opinion. I know it is the 21st Century maybe you should let the F1 boys know about this "new" technology called AWD...

Maybe rewrite their rules so that AWD is legal, and they will thank you :)
Comparing what is essentially a spaceship (F1 car) to a road car (VE Commodore) is drawing a long bow IMO

Folks that reckon RWD is 'superior' quick, apples with apples need to get out and do some events. It doesnt take much effort to make a $60,000 STi AWD keep lap pace with $350,000 worth of 997 GT3 on the racetrack and absolutely destroy them in tarmac events. This I know, and I am a fairly useless driver. The quick guys make the gap even bigger.

Top 20 results, Australias biggest/fastest Hillclimb event for predominantly street/tarmac cars (2011 Mount Alma Mile), first RWD in 20th place outright - http://mountalmamile.com/Portals/0/2011%20Results/overall.pdf
Out of 113 cars in the field, 76 of them were RWD.......

[adr8]

Maybe rewrite their rules so that AWD is legal, and they will thank you :)


Thats the point I am getting at, F1 can rewrite the rules if they wish but they haven't! Why? Secondly why are 80% of supercars produced today RWD not AWD.

[mac06]

One of the problems Australia has is simple economics of scale. We are really just a cottage industry on the world stage. To give an idea of what I mean, China has sold 487,208 GM only products in January and February alone, 240,554 of those in February. The US has sold 209,306 GM products in February. Where do we sit in all of this? 85,723 in February across all manufacturers.
We either get to lose our manufacturing skills in Australia to other countries, all of which subsidize the motor industry because they see the importance of government investment in this area, or the Australian government matches the incentives other governments offer. It's not about whether the manufacturers can afford stand on their own two feet or not, it's about head offices in the US deciding to take advantage of these incentives on offer. If Australia doesn't offer them Ford and GM could decide to go elsewhere, where they are on offer.

[Martin_D]

Thats the point I am getting at, F1 can rewrite the rules if they wish but they haven't! Why? Secondly why are 80% of supercars produced today RWD not AWD.

Yes, yes they can do whatever they want whenever they want F1 has no rules :)
I have no idea what I am talking about, of course 80% of Supercars are RWD.
Your VE is faster than any R35 GTR
And I have NEVER driven a Gallardo
Happy? :cool:

More importantly which is quicker in GT5? Thats where the action really is

[VYBerlinaV8]

Interesting to see the angst about AWD vs RWD. Having gone from a RWD to an AWD, I'll admit to being a convert. Yep, AWD adds weight and friction, but the grip under acceleration, especially when cornering, is worlds apart. No, the AWD doesn't drop burnouts, but I don't really care - the extra performance makes it worthwhile.

I think we also need to bear in mind the differences between stock and modified, and what we use our cars for. For real world performance, I'm not a fan of front wheel drive, as I seem to get to understeer a bit early. Rear wheel drive was fun, but once it got out of shape it wasn't quick (but it was entertaining). The AWD I have now is much more benign, but the limits of adhesion and the speed it carries through corners is far superior.

Ultimately, it's about finding what you like, and what suits your driving. I don't expect others to necessarily agree with my choices, but it is worth trying some different configurations to see the difference.

[seldo]

I have driven plenty of AWD and they are too nose heavy for my liking, just my opinion. I know it is the 21st Century maybe you should let the F1 boys know about this "new" technology called AWD...Unfortunately, the F1 rule-makers are aware that the very-limited-spectacle that currently is F1 would peter-out completely if they allowed AWD, so it is banned, because it is so clinically effective...
Like I said - welcome to the 21st century...
You really should broaden your horizons one day and go and drive an AWD in anger...quite a shock to the system, although your cheer-squad mates would be saying that you weren't trying...

[zorro]

If by awd being useless lets go back to early 1980s when a little company by the name of Audi released an awd hatch and called it a quattro. This car also went out and dominated the rally scene for a good few years after this. Weird huh.

Nissan later on in the 80s made an awd too, called it an r32 gtr, this also had some success.

Also in the 80s a little mob called Lancia came out and won some rallies with awd.

Probably my most memorable is the mid to late 90s 2.0l supertourer era when Audi again brought an awd car into racing and dominated, even with concrete blocks in the boot as penalties. Soon enough though awd was banned and they continued without as big success as fwd...

Awd is fantastic and can turn average drivers into not so average drivers :lol: and if you get a chance to drive one at pace you will see how good it is.

What I've found is most have an issue adjusting driving style to the car hence having bad experiences behind the wheel and a generalization of something being no good. As said earlier a lambo is miles ahead over an rs impreza, and if you think an rs is bad would be silly to think lambo is the same.....

[Martin_D]

Awd is fantastic and can turn average drivers into not so average drivers :lol:.....

More so turn average cars into good cars. Nothing wrong with Jones/McConville/Richards/Skaife as drivers who all won with AWD cars in Aussie tarmac race series :)
Its a pity we never got the AWD SS....apparently it was so close.

Got stuck in the snow last year in an XR6. The thing wouldnt move in less than 2cm of snow, and when it did it was downright dangerous. AWD cars simply drove past...

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

Ok I'm going to admit my next statement is going to be from something I read/saw in a magazine....

I read a little while ago a review on hot hatches and they took a bunch of them over to Wakefield to do some laps. What surprised me was the fastest cars around the track was the Megane RS then the focus RS and then the WRX. Thought it was surprising the fastest 2 cars were FWD beating the AWD WRX. Anybody able to make comment on that?

Now I have been in WRX's before and have been astounded by how hard they do corner and power out of bends but I have never been in a quick fwd drive car so I can't make real world comparisons.

[zorro]

I wasn't having a dig at them, moreso the average joe on the streets.

I still don't believe an awd commodore would of won too many over, ultimately no matter what wheels drive it it's still the same car.

I'm hoping the new commodore can be something Torana concept size and if we have to inherit it from the states be like the exports an have an Aussie friendly front end on it. Also a variety of engines from 4cyl to small capacity v8 (a la audi) an drive trains. The future of large saloons is dieing so rather than turn us all sterile with transport being transport with no emotion behind it adapt to the surroundings and keep us all interested.

[macca_779]

All the cross 8 shit was pretty rubbish for performance based motoring. An AWD SS would of had its arse handed to it by a RWD equivalent. Look at the coupe 4. It was not quick by any stretch as the hardware added a lot of weight.


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[zorro]

A vz body on a Nissan patrol chassis would of been pretty useful :D

[shaneooo]

Sooo yeah, um how about those Falcons and Commodores......and 2016.....

[macca_779]

A vz body on a Nissan patrol chassis would of been pretty useful :D

Until it bent at the first sign of some decent articulation.

[zorro]

Yeah true, they can't even go up a driveway without the thing twisting the doors :lol:

Used to see a few kings woods done on the 4x4 chassis, also a mob in Brisbane did 2 rolls Royce's for weddings on 4x4 chassis

[macca_779]

That's awesome


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[adr8]

Still waiting on a response as to why the majority of supercars are RWD not AWD? but anyway I must reiterate my point because it seems to got lost in the translation, most racers prefer the front wheels to do steering only as it provides better feedback/connection with the car hence why it is not in F1 and the majority of supercars... incidently if it were introduced in F1 I think you would see much more overtaking ie when it rains.

[mac06]

This has gone way off topic. It's supposed to be all about Falcon and Territory disappearing, not FWD vs AWD vs RWD.

[Martin_D]

Still waiting on a response as to why the majority of supercars are RWD not AWD?

What do you classify a Supercar?
Lamborghini?
Bugatti Veyron?
Porsche 911T?
GTR?
All AWD

Back to the point. Fords lineup looks good enough to live without Falcon here in Aus currently

[adr8]

What do you classify a Supercar?
Lamborghini?
Bugatti Veyron?
Porsche 911T?
GTR?
All AWD

Back to the point. Fords lineup looks good enough to live without Falcon here in Aus currently

Ferarri
Mclaren F1
Mercedes SLS
Pagani Zonda
Koenigsege
Jaguar
Maserati
Aston Martin
Alfa Romeo 8C
Lexus LFA
Gumbert
Porsche GT3
Lambo Balboni
All RWD.

Not a supercar but the 3 series has been the benchmark in driving dynamics since as far as I could remember...

Anywasys back to the point as this has got way off topic Falcon and Territory will be gone by 2016, the V8 supercars taking on more constructors could be indicative of what they think about the future of the Falcon

[Martin_D]

Not a supercar but the 3 series has been the benchmark in driving dynamics since as far as I could remember...

Is this for real? :lol:
VE Chassis is pretty good in comparison (better than the Falcons)

[macca_779]

Ferarri
Mclaren F1
Mercedes SLS
Pagani Zonda
Koenigsege
Jaguar
Maserati
Aston Martin
Alfa Romeo 8C
Lexus LFA
Gumbert
Porsche GT3
Lambo Balboni
All RWD.

Not a supercar but the 3 series has been the benchmark in driving dynamics since as far as I could remember...

Anywasys back to the point as this has got way off topic Falcon and Territory will be gone by 2016, the V8 supercars taking on more constructors could be indicative of what they think about the future of the Falcon

Then there is the ring. First AWD drive car comes in at # 13 that being the GTR. There is even a couple of corvettes in front of it. So I guess when it comes to hyper cars RWD doesn't do to bad.


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[Martin_D]

These are the most current times I can see -
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html
Have a look at power vs weight vs laptime. Its scary :)
GTR is in 10th the next car that carries the same weight is in 48th position
This is the beauty of AWD, you dont need to build a stripped out race to do stripped out race car times.

Its a shame Holden never delivered it to us in a competition orientated and manual transmission car. They could have
Coupe 4 proved how potent it was. Being able to use full throttle with > 400rwkw and no wheelspin added another dimension to a local car.

[planetdavo]

On real roads, with real tyres, performance AWD tears performance RWD a new backside.

I apologise now if you go through a set of rear tyres every 500km and hold 45 degree powerslides all the way to work in your Commy using all the - slow - entertainment RWD has on offer. Otherwise dont believe everything they tell you on Top Gear, there is a whole nother world out there :cool:

(Note: Nearly all of the impressive Commodores on this forum that could actually perform in street trim without special contrived track conditions, rubber, you name it, were AWD. Not one trick ponies)

So why are you on this forum Martin, assuming your only reason isn't just to gain amusement from baiting all these "poor" Holden owners who know no better...? :confused:
Surely the definition of a TRUE "enthusiast" is of someone who appreciates whatever vehicle they like to own and drive...:teach:
*
As "most" people will already know, the TYRES are the limiting factor, as an AWD car ultimately has no more available grip than a 2WD car. AWD is really only of benefit when one exceeds their or their car's ability, or, in the case of certain people from Adelaide, perhaps they are always looking for the best launch time between each red traffic light...:driving:

[macca_779]

These are the most current times I can see -
http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html
Have a look at power vs weight vs laptime. Its scary :)
GTR is in 10th the next car that carries the same weight is in 48th position
This is the beauty of AWD, you dont need to build a stripped out race to do stripped out race car times.

Its a shame Holden never delivered it to us in a competition orientated and manual transmission car. They could have
Coupe 4 proved how potent it was. Being able to use full throttle with > 400rwkw and no wheelspin added another dimension to a local car.

No doubt the GTR does well with what it's got. But the quickest it is not.

My list must of been an older one. Those Nissan boys do keep trying don't they




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[macca_779]

So why are you on this forum Martin, assuming your only reason isn't just to gain amusement from baiting all these "poor" Holden owners who know no better...? :confused:
Surely the definition of a TRUE "enthusiast" is of someone who appreciates whatever vehicle they like to own and drive...:teach:
*
As "most" people will already know, the TYRES are the limiting factor, as an AWD car ultimately has no more available grip than a 2WD car. AWD is really only of benefit when one exceeds their or their car's ability, or, in the case of certain people from Adelaide, perhaps they are always looking for the best launch time between each red traffic light...:driving:

Davo. Shhhhh the grown ups are talking.

Clearly you have no idea how an AWD pulling the front tyres around a corner actually gives it more usable grip


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[planetdavo]

Davo. Shhhhh the grown ups are talking.

Clearly you have no idea how an AWD pulling the front tyres around a corner actually gives it more usable grip


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Sorry mac, but most of the developed world knows that AWD only provides benefits when one EXCEEDS the 2WD car's capabilities, as I said before you jumped in rather hastily. The rest of the time it is dead weight that consumes more fuel, rather more important negatives to most buyers...:teach:

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[macca_779]

Sorry mac, but most of the developed world knows that AWD only provides benefits when one EXCEEDS the 2WD car's capabilities, as I said before you jumped in rather hastily. The rest of the time it is dead weight that consumes more fuel, rather more important negatives to most buyers...:teach:

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I agree most of the time it is a waste. So are airbags and seatbelts :teach:


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[Xjas]

Are there many AWD cars at the top of the ANDRA top 10 lists?
AWD and RWD doesnt define the performance of a car anyway, it is only one aspect of the car, the package as a whole defines the cars performace, the GTR is a cracker of a car because it is a well engineed package, a nissan patrol is also AWD but doent rate so highly in the performance stakes...until you go off road. Same can be said for the Mclaren F1, well engineered to achive the goals its designer had in mind despite "only" being RWD.

[Martin_D]

For those with > 350rwkw that can only but fry the tyres at full throttle AWD is a good thing.
Nothing with any grunt can put it down through two on normal street tyres.
Look at the times turbo and supercharged Coupe4s/Adventras have run on here - on street rubber - and realise that AWD SS was a missed opportunity. No use in crying about it though.

[Xjas]

For those with > 350rwkw that can only but fry the tyres at full throttle AWD is a good thing.
Nothing with any grunt can put it down through two on normal street tyres.
Look at the times turbo and supercharged Coupe4s/Adventras have run on here - on street rubber - and realise that AWD SS was a missed opportunity. No use in crying about it though.

That was probably the problem, the stock vy/vz ss sedans of the time were punching out a whopping 235fwkws which they could easily put down through 2 decent tyres (in the dry at least) so the engineers would have had a hard time putting together a case for an AWD SS.

[planetdavo]

I agree most of the time it is a waste. So are airbags and seatbelts


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For X dollars I would argue that premium tyres and premium brakes are of FAR more benefit to a ROAD driver than AWD. Just as airbags, seatbelts, ABS brakes/ESC are of FAR more benefit than AWD. Most people do not have the ability to utilise the benefits of AWD to prevent an accident macca. Many enthusiastic drivers simply end up having a much bigger accident because they THINK it will save them..
We could all go extreme and say that the best "safety" feature is not driving a car on the road at all...then you can't get into trouble to begin with... :confused:
Everything about road cars is about cost vs benefit. AWD simply does not stack up as being good value on most road cars.

Now back to the subject of Falcon stopping in 2016! :lmao:

[Martin_D]

Falcon and Commodore will both stop for the same reasons.
Cynical manufacturing for a lowest common denominator and GM raking the profits rather than putting enough of them back into further developing the car. These cars could both be so much better with a little effort and innovation. Take a lesson from Mercedes, over $1,000,000 a day spent on new model development.
Reality is we should be up to VG Commodore by now....if they hadnt already decided to kill it 10 years ago....

[planetdavo]

Falcon and Commodore will both stop for the same reasons.
Cynical manufacturing for a lowest common denominator. These cars could both be so much better with a little effort.
Reality is we should be up to VG Commodore by now....if they hadnt already decided to kill it 10 years ago....

TS Astra went from 98-05 with minimal visual changes.
AH Astra went from 04-09 with minimal visual changes.
The Honda Civic (just replaced) went from 06 to early 12 with minimal change.

Point is that many cars, including Euro's and Japanese, have a lifespan with minimal "visual" change for around 5-6 years. VE is currently about 5.6 years old. Seems about the same, or slightly under, the examples shown above to me...

[Jag530G]

Falcon and Commodore will both stop for the same reasons.
Cynical manufacturing for a lowest common denominator and GM raking the profits rather than putting enough of them back into further developing the car. These cars could both be so much better with a little effort and innovation. Take a lesson from Mercedes, over $1,000,000 a day spent on new model development.
Reality is we should be up to VG Commodore by now....if they hadnt already decided to kill it 10 years ago....

Pedant's Corner: We had the VG Commodore 1990-91 (it was the VN Ute)

It might be better to say that for anyone of moderate abilities an AWD car would be a better bet. If you are Mark Webber, maybe not.

Cheers, Matthew

[adr8]

Is this for real? :lol:
VE Chassis is pretty good in comparison (better than the Falcons)

Well you obviously have no answer to my question as to why so many Supercars are RWD?

[macca_779]

For X dollars I would argue that premium tyres and premium brakes are of FAR more benefit to a ROAD driver than AWD. Just as airbags, seatbelts, ABS brakes/ESC are of FAR more benefit than AWD. Most people do not have the ability to utilise the benefits of AWD to prevent an accident macca. Many enthusiastic drivers simply end up having a much bigger accident because they THINK it will save them..
We could all go extreme and say that the best "safety" feature is not driving a car on the road at all...then you can't get into trouble to begin with... :confused:
Everything about road cars is about cost vs benefit. AWD simply does not stack up as being good value on most road cars.

Now back to the subject of Falcon stopping in 2016! :lmao:

Can tell you've never driven a Subaru in big rain on a highway davo. I own both and know for a fact the benefits of AWD even in a straight line. You as usual have no idea or experience to comment.

Most annoying thing in a Subaru when doing 130km/h in torrential downpour is the cruise control disabling itself everytime the AWD bias' due to slip. it's a casual controlled sensation though that is not the same in a commodore I assure you. In fact while I can do 130 with total confidence in my subi in those conditions. Doing so in a commodore would be stupid even with good tyres.


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[Martin_D]

Well you obviously have no answer to my question as to why so many Supercars are RWD?

Of course there are more RWD Supercars....if you count Jaguars, Astons, BMW 3 Series, 15 year old cars as Supercars (Why not add VN Commodore to the list?)
Its hard to have a discussion about the relative merits of Supercars and AWD with someone thats gathered their entire knowledge on the subject from reading magazines/Xbox etc. Of course you are 100% wrong, but blissfully you will never know it, so really we both win :)

[Martin_D]

Can tell you've never driven a Subaru in big rain on a highway davo. I own both and know for a fact the benefits of AWD even in a straight line. You as usual have no idea or experience to comment.

Fact is an AWD car will run the same standing start acceleration times on street tyres on normal street surfaces....
as a RWD with slick tyres, specially prepped track, wind pointing the right way, right amount of shade etc.

Plenty of folks have 11 second drag strip Commodores that produce 14 second performance in the real world. There are a few however that can generate consistent performance regardless of the surface. NickS old Coupe was a good example
The closest we actually got to a performance AWD for the masses was the Territory Turbo, which FoMoCo have now killed, which shows that performance really isnt their long game. Thank god above though that Holden are basing their future on the most successful of Supercar chassis layouts :lol:

Slowly enough folks will learn they cant race their dyno sheet and that a traffic light grand prix cant always be postponed till you bolt on slicks. Then AWD takes over :cheers:

[Carby]

On real roads, with real tyres, performance AWD tears performance RWD a new backside.

I apologise now if you go through a set of rear tyres every 500km and hold 45 degree powerslides all the way to work in your Commy using all the - slow - entertainment RWD has on offer. Otherwise dont believe everything they tell you on Top Gear, there is a whole nother world out there :cool:

(Note: Nearly all of the impressive Commodores on this forum that could actually perform in street trim without special contrived track conditions, rubber, you name it, were AWD. Not one trick ponies)

You really are gifted in missing the point! You said FWD and RWD are crap - in what situations racing ? They have their attributes. SO Ferrari, Porsche, Astons, Maser's M3's C63's all crap! Ha - -not one of your best comments me thinks!!

Your attitude is typical of the AWD brigade. The esteemed Ian Luff came to our Club meeting a while back and regaled us on how many (mainly WRX) drivers on training days, when they lost it at the end of the straight were surprised on that a "AWD could do that!! Trouble is when a AWD loses it and then bites back (ie regains grip) it is often in a whole world of trouble.

Taking your myopic view on performance (for real performance) - tell me how many Top fuel, Alcohol , Funny cars or door slammers are AWD?

Oh and as for wearing tyres I got 51000 ks from my Rear OEM Bridgies and 72,000 from from the fronts -car was novated and can be verified by the leasing company - I have no complaints on those figures!

[shaneooo]

Well you obviously have no answer to my question as to why so many Supercars are RWD?

Most Supercars have been RWD with AWD limited editions. However, most modern supercars run a variable AWD system, usually RWD biased during acceleration with more AWD during the bends.

Also don't forget that supercars have a different weight setup compared to the Commodores and Falcons with the engines positioned in the middle or rear of the car.

I am pretty confident that a AWD Falcon with a tuned 5.0s/c motor would hammer pretty hard and be alot better to drive than the current setup!

[sjhugh]

It’ll never happen as Commodore and locally manufactured V8 powered cars are all but dead now but if Holden did produce a new AWD V8 in today’s market for $70k, I’d be all over it.
The potential of the vehicle would be my buying motivation.


AWD is a good thing, not a bad thing and if weight is a problem, so is the fact Holden still builds cars made from rocks and stones gathered from Fred Flintstone’s back yard instead of some of the modern materials that are available today?


Private buyers have proven they are smarter than old school manufacturers. That’s why Asia and Europe go forward with technology and innovation and the Yanks and their subsidiaries play catch up. Bye, bye Ford Australia.


Those who argue against AWD are the same as my sister telling me that because of speed limits her red Holden Cruze gets her to a destination in the same time as my V8 powered cars. My answer to her is, I don’t give a f@cK.

.

[adr8]

Of course there are more RWD Supercars....if you count Jaguars, Astons, BMW 3 Series, 15 year old cars as Supercars (Why not add VN Commodore to the list?)
Its hard to have a discussion about the relative merits of Supercars and AWD with someone thats gathered their entire knowledge on the subject from reading magazines/Xbox etc. Of course you are 100% wrong, but blissfully you will never know it, so really we both win :)

Here you go again failing to answer the question by making unsubstantiated assumptions/generalisations. Is making derogatory comments your way of avoiding the question or admitting that you are wrong

[zorro]

Over the years I've had some disagreements with Martin but I do respect that he has got a hell of a lot more knowledge and wheel time of different makes/models & levels of modifications than well pretty much most of the rest of us.

Re-write your argument, prove your points and see what happens

[Swordie]

Your thoughts ?

It’s a shame Ford U.S hasn’t tapped into Australian engineering talent like GM.

[Martin_D]

Over the years I've had some disagreements with Martin but I do respect that he has got a hell of a lot more knowledge and wheel time of different makes/models & levels of modifications than well pretty much most of the rest of us.
Re-write your argument, prove your points and see what happens

Thanks for the support zorro :lol:
I have raced FWD, RWD, and AWD cars. I have driven Gallardos etc. I am both old and fortunate to have had the opportunity. I will only race AWD cars these days as if you want to finish in the top 10 in most any club level event you have no choice. Unless you are spending $300,000+ on a RWD road car they just arent fast enough. There is no fun in being murdered by Evos, WRXs, and GTRs just to tell everyone your car is more fun to drive. This is what happens out there in club level motorsport, most every weekend somewhere in the country.

If you want to see the relative merits of AWD versus RWD (where RWD has a massive 100hp+ power advantage and 100kg+ weight advantage) it is proven quite clearly here with real cars and drivers of equal standard - (an oldy but a good with no journalistic spin from Clarkson et al)
Y66Co7FCNZI
This was an uncomfortable truth at the time, but still holds true now :)

P.S. Some Mid engined Supercars are built as homologation cars for the GT3 series in Europe where normally aspirated and RWD is the class ruling to control both cost and speed - ie Porsche GT3 (RWD atmo) is slower than both GT2 and 911 Turbo, but exists for this reason (hence the name GT3).

Territory underpinned Falcon and Adventra underpinned Commodore would have made these cars more popular. However the axe had more than likely fallen on them by then (around 2005) with the phase out already planned and signed off.

[Ghia351]

It’s a shame Ford U.S hasn’t tapped into Australian engineering talent like GM.
They have and for greater levels then Holden but it's not well advertised like red-team, for T6 Ranger, Figo, next Figo replacement, new crossover thingy off Fiesta, new wagon off Ranger (i.e. Prado-like), and a myriad of stuff for China...just not a RWD car...yet...

[Skedy]

ghia351 you no a hell of alot about Fords pd programs im going to take a stab and say you either work at fords pd or know someone who does!

[planetdavo]

They have and for greater levels then Holden but it's not well advertised like red-team, for T6 Ranger, Figo, next Figo replacement, new crossover thingy off Fiesta, new wagon off Ranger (i.e. Prado-like), and a myriad of stuff for China...just not a RWD car...yet...

Plenty of stuff is known about, but the thing with big flashing lights is that Ford HQ only uses Ford Aus technical abilities not manufacturing abilities, meaning no export potential for Australian made Ford's since they got burned waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the Capri to US days.
Once Ford Australian production stops, what do we all reckon might happen to the talented Aus technical team....?

[planetdavo]

Can tell you've never driven a Subaru in big rain on a highway davo. I own both and know for a fact the benefits of AWD even in a straight line. You as usual have no idea or experience to comment.

Most annoying thing in a Subaru when doing 130km/h in torrential downpour is the cruise control disabling itself everytime the AWD bias' due to slip. it's a casual controlled sensation though that is not the same in a commodore I assure you. In fact while I can do 130 with total confidence in my subi in those conditions. Doing so in a commodore would be stupid even with good tyres.


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Wow. I'm not sure whether we should be more impressed in the car's abilities, or the fact that you are still ALIVE.
Anyone that thinks it’s “safe” to do 130km/h in a torrential downpour on a public highway whilst suffering tyre grip/aquaplaning issues is, well, let’s just say that they are someone best kept away from everyone else that is happy living, no matter what wheels are being driven…
One thing I do have plenty of experience with is driving a car to the conditions, rather than carrying on like an f'n idiot with a death wish on public roads.

[planetdavo]

Over the years I've had some disagreements with Martin but I do respect that he has got a hell of a lot more knowledge and wheel time of different makes/models & levels of modifications than well pretty much most of the rest of us.


As have I. Often the "arguments" are about why he's still on here when he's clearly moved on and lives in a world so much better than our sh!t Aussie made, rear wheel drive one...:spew:
Yes Martin has plenty of experience, but his experience always comes up in posts as ways to maximise track times, track focussed handling, launch times at the track...track, track, track!
Most of us talk "road" cars, and often have VERY different requirements than simple outright pace around a........track. :)

[Ghia351]

Plenty of stuff is known about, but the thing with big flashing lights is that Ford HQ only uses Ford Aus technical abilities not manufacturing abilities, meaning no export potential for Australian made Ford's since they got burned waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the Capri to US days.
Once Ford Australian production stops, what do we all reckon might happen to the talented Aus technical team....?Exactly the same end result as will happen to Holden if assistance is turned off. Do you think Holden can maintain it's current build rate if no exports of decent size eventuate. Unfortunately that's not likely while the $Aust is 1.05 to the $US. This is not a Holden vs Ford thing, this is an Australian car industry vs the OS mob fight and I don't see any big bets for the locals sadly.

[Ghia351]

ghia351 you no a hell of alot about Fords pd programs im going to take a stab and say you either work at fords pd or know someone who does!I could tell you but would then have to inject you with memory loss inducing drugs.:jester:

[zorro]

Plenty of stuff is known about, but the thing with big flashing lights is that Ford HQ only uses Ford Aus technical abilities not manufacturing abilities, meaning no export potential for Australian made Ford's since they got burned waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the Capri to US days.
Once Ford Australian production stops, what do we all reckon might happen to the talented Aus technical team....?

Insider news an what you read in the latest motor mag on your lunch break are different things. Whilst I do not know what Fords program is nor Holden's I could make a comment like yours which is pretty general on the topic.

I had a casual in our workplace before Christmas who got offered a nice redundancy from Holden, including a cost price vehicle amongst other nutsack tickling things. He had some interesting things to say about information they were receiving from high up and he was in production with 25yrs service. Amongst them the doom and gloom is not as bad as one would think however the next decades forecast doesn't include much for GM AU operations.

Ford are miles ahead of GM in regards to their simplification of global models, they sell one brand car and will be doing global models, ad the new mondeo ain't a bad looking rig. The ranger platform is multiple use and then there are long term models like focus, fiesta etc. GM are only now catching up.

Ford may have done poorly with the Capri however you look at how popular Aussie models have been in the states, not very. If that's the case then why try force another large family car/ute/'SUV' into the already crowded market?? The people who count the beans aren't silly, they want returns for little outlay and if it ain't going to make money then don't do it. Simple really

[zorro]

The blokes with the brains here at ford? What any other businesses do, offer relocation with more money or redundancy...

[gmeup]

I don’t like to go off topic it is sad Ford and Holden is in the state. Our loss really we are not buying these cars in the volumes we use to.

With regards to RWD VS FWD VS AWD, there seems to be a lot of hostility over this topic. Each has there benefits and their place for cars. When it comes to performances based cars. I think RWD might have a small edge as the overall best platform for pure motorsport. AWD has its place is motorsport and has advantage in certain types of motorsport (thinks Rally)

RWD will always be

1. Lighter
2. More fuel efficient
3. More feedback from steering
4. Faster in some environments eg (drag strip)
5. Slower in other environments eg( snow, ice, dirt, cross country, wet tarmac)

There is no better or worse platform each platform is designed for different purposes.

For everyone’s information the top 10 fastest supercars in the world 9 are RWD and only one is AWD being the Veyron

http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/showtop10.cgi?13

I personally prefer RWD the way it drives but that’s personal preference. There is no better or worse or right or wrong in my opinion all serve a purpose at the end of the day. Also AWD in Australia is less relevant we do not have, ice, snow so performance cars in AU are fine with RWD.

[FOON]

For everyone’s information the top 10 fastest supercars in the world 9 are RWD and only one is AWD being the Veyron

http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/showtop10.cgi?13


How about giving us the acceleration and quarter mile figures instead of top speed ones, they tell a different story.

[Skedy]

I could tell you but would then have to inject you with memory loss inducing drugs.:jester:

hahaha dont worry im in the same boat lol

[the big fist]

How about giving us the acceleration and quarter mile figures instead of top speed ones, they tell a different story.

http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/top10.cgi

[FOON]

I prefer this one, seems more legit to the other one, no one offs or concepts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration

[gmeup]

How about giving us the acceleration and quarter mile figures instead of top speed ones, they tell a different story.

Hi Foon,

I just picked fastest cars as that is more relevant to a super car, either way I’m no biased I like AWD I like RWD but in answer your quote how does it give a different story?

http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/showtop10.cgi?26
as per your request fastest qtr. mile top 10.

1 car is awd other 9 are all rwd.

Cheers

[FOON]

That one left out the 2008 Lambo Murci LP670-4 at 10.9 sec and 2010 Koenigsegg Agera R at 9.30 Sec, doesn't seem accurate as no Koenigsegg in the top 30 Quickest but has 2 in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20 fastest (Top Speed), something doesn't ring right there.

[Ghia351]

hahaha dont worry im in the same boat lolCheers. Just to show it's whole industry, I have a business near me which is a metal parts supplier to Toyota and looking back now I remember a few trucks lined up on the road and in the loading bays waiting to collect parts continuously from 7:30am to about 3:00pm, fast forward to today and you see nothing in the street and occassionally something in the loading bay.

[Martin_D]

I prefer this one, seems more legit to the other one, no one offs or concepts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration

Out of all the cars made by actual car manufacturers (not kit cars or one off specials) the Top 5 are all AWD :)
Or for those that are road legal in Australia the Top 4 are all AWD

In true street trim at the drag strip - stick shift transmission, standard rear end, radial tyres, nothing beats an AWD. We raced one for years as the fastest of its type in Australia, running sub 9 second passes on a stick with a conventional foot clutch, and running on petrol......driving too and from the track in some instances. AWD is banned from top level drag racing, just like turbocharging, because its too bloody fast for a sport stuck in the 1950s.

Haters gonna hate, but why not actually try driving before forming an opinion. There a whole new world out there just waiting for you :idea:
Clicky - (watch from the 3:18 mark)
rNT2UijpCMs

RWD is nowhere for performance in a road sized and weighted car, its just cheap and simple. Far from fast.

[planetdavo]

Yep, haters gunna hate.
So, let's all get fully sik hectic Rex's and Lancers and do sum fukin drag races off the lights to impress the chicks with all our fully sik all wheel drive cars, cos the grip off the green lights is, like, fully sik man...:cool:

[Xjas]

Haters gonna hate, but why not actually try driving before forming an opinion. There a whole new world out there just waiting for you :idea:
RWD is nowhere for performance in a road sized and weighted car, its just cheap and simple. Far from fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlGMX8G3B4

[seldo]

Yep, haters gunna hate.
So, let's all get fully sik hectic Rex's and Lancers and do sum fukin drag races off the lights to impress the chicks with all our fully sik all wheel drive cars, cos the grip off the green lights is, like, fully sik man...:cool:Davo - give us a break. I actually thought you had a bit broader and more realistic outlook...:rolleyes:

[SUZUKI MALISHA]

Davo - give us a break. I actually thought you had a bit broader and more realistic outlook...:rolleyes:

only takes a few words to speak volumes....
the way i see it...ford will likely end up with an aussie fwd/AWD model made up of taurus and mustang glogal parts...or something similiar.
Would be good to see ford keeping production here with all the parts sent here for aus building..and jobs. Gives you a fwd car for the masses and an AWD for the sport models.....id imagine martin D will be very happy with that..haha

[gmeup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlGMX8G3B4

Yep comes down to hp at the end of the day. As I said AWD and RWD both have their own advantage and disadvantages none are the cure and the holy grail, but as i said before drag races are RWD forte and the more hp you give the better RWD can propel once it has traction of course :)

[Martin_D]

but as i said before drag races are RWD forte and the more hp you give the better RWD can propel once it has traction of course :)

For what? If you want to lose :lol:
Its not hard to understand is it, putting it down through 2 wont give you as much grip as putting it down through 4 wheels (twice the contact patch) :idea:
Slow and old fashioned, and more to the point cheap and simple to make is what makes RWD/FWD so popular

The ZR1 is a perfect case in point. Makes 30% more power and torque than the old model GTR its racing, weighs 200kg less, is delivered on race tyres and is only - just - faster in the hands of one magazine. If it was AWD it would be a lot faster of course.

[Martin_D]

Gives you a fwd car for the masses and an AWD for the sport models.....id imagine martin D will be very happy with that..haha

It wouldnt be too hard to improve on the wobbly old jelly filled Falcon.
Bring it on :lol:

[Martin_D]

Yep, haters gunna hate.
So, let's all get fully sik hectic Rex's and Lancers and do sum fukin drag races off the lights to impress the chicks with all our fully sik all wheel drive cars, cos the grip off the green lights is, like, fully sik man...:cool:

Remember Davo you were the one that posted drag racing episodes on the street from your Epica driving experience. Imagine if that TDi version was AWD. How cool....even get the trim to match your cardigan. Yes, 'chicks' ARE better than 'dudes' try it sometime :lol:

[Xjas]

Yep comes down to hp at the end of the day. As I said AWD and RWD both have their own advantage and disadvantages none are the cure and the holy grail, but as i said before drag races are RWD forte and the more hp you give the better RWD can propel once it has traction of course :)

I agree, there is alot more to it that which wheels have driveshafts. At the end of the day GM chose to spend there development dollars for the ZR1 on a more powerful engine rather than developing an AWD system and ended up with a faster car than the GTR, maybe its the power, maybe its the weight and polar moment of inertia benifits of RWD over AWD, maybe its the lower frontal area and less drag they could acheive with a RWD over AWD, or maybe its a combination of all these that make it faster but the fact remains it is faster.

[planetdavo]

Davo - give us a break. I actually thought you had a bit broader and more realistic outlook...:rolleyes:

Learn to develop a sense of humour Seldo (and a couple of you others too). :idea:

[planetdavo]

I agree, there is alot more to it that which wheels have driveshafts. At the end of the day GM chose to spend there development dollars for the ZR1 on a more powerful engine rather than developing an AWD system and ended up with a faster car than the GTR, maybe its the power, maybe its the weight and polar moment of inertia benifits of RWD over AWD, maybe its the lower frontal area and less drag they could acheive with a RWD over AWD, or maybe its a combination of all these that make it faster but the fact remains it is faster.

The main reason some types love AWD is because it's easier to help a muppet fulfill their world champion race car driver fantasies, rather than that repulsive thought of needing to develop a finely honed skillset.
AWD has it's place in society, but it's not the be all and end all.

[Martin_D]

The main reason some types love AWD is because it's easier to help a muppet fulfill their world champion race car driver fantasies, rather than that repulsive thought of needing to develop a finely honed skillset.
AWD has it's place in society, but it's not the be all and end all.

It might also stop your wife and children losing control on a low traction surface and plowing head on into a speeding Peterbilt coming the other way.
AWD = Primary Safety Feature

[planetdavo]

It might also stop your wife and children losing control on a low traction surface and plowing head on into a speeding Peterbilt coming the other way.
AWD = Primary Safety Feature

Martin, if you open your eyes, you would realise that modern electronics do far more for the population than AWD will EVER do. These electronics just don't help people achieve a fast "lap time". Your comments are severely biased toward high powered cars driven hard, or beyond what the road conditions safely allow. AWD does nothing to prevent the most common accident there is...the rear ender through lack of concentration. AWD only helps TRACTION- A car off the throttle still has exactly the same grip as a 2WD car, because the same tyres are doing the same job. Your favourite subject is mostly about allowing hard launches, attacking your favourite hilly back road if the skills aren't high enough, or for driving like a loony in the rain. For the rest of the population, it is over 100kg's of dead weight, adding to the fuel bill every single time you drive the car...
Premium tyres are the go. :)

[gmeup]

Martin, if you open your eyes, you would realise that modern electronics do far more for the population than AWD will EVER do. These electronics just don't help people achieve a fast "lap time". Your comments are severely biased toward high powered cars driven hard, or beyond what the road conditions safely allow. AWD does nothing to prevent the most common accident there is...the rear ender through lack of concentration. AWD only helps TRACTION- A car off the throttle still has exactly the same grip as a 2WD car, because the same tyres are doing the same job. Your favourite subject is mostly about allowing hard launches, attacking your favourite hilly back road if the skills aren't high enough, or for driving like a loony in the rain. For the rest of the population, it is over 100kg's of dead weight, adding to the fuel bill every single time you drive the car...
Premium tyres are the go. :)

I agree every new car has ESP and combine with TC and ABS, your average driver in Aus wouldnt have a clue if they are driving a FWD, RWD or AWD, with these electronics every car will handle in a predictable manner if there is an emergency. As I said australia doesn't need awd we do not have the climate for it we are a dry country with very little snow or ice or dirt or mud on our roads. Go to USA and Canada and lots of folks option their BMW and MERCs all Euro cars with AWD Merc, Bmw etc dont even sell their awd cars to Aus cause they know we dont need them. Thats not to say AWD isnt good and doesnt have it place it is good and it does have its place of course.

Martin, the fastest race cars on the planet are top fuel drag cars with 6000kw and 8000 nm of torque and qtr mile times of under 4.5 secs they are the most powerful race cars and the quickest cars in the world. Guess what they are all RWD. Do you really think they are RWD for saving money as you reckon? as i said RWD and AWD all they their place in motorsport.

[macca_779]

AWD is banned in top fuel drag racing. The cars would be quicker with it no doubt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[planetdavo]

AWD is banned in top fuel drag racing. The cars would be quicker with it no doubt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would they? Considering they often try to lift at least one front wheel off the track I have serious doubts...
AWD's advantage is when more performance is being asked for than the tyres can handle, as long as the weight penalty and increased parasitic driveline losses don't exceed the gains had from the extra grip.
Top Fuellers seem to launch "ok".

[C4B]

......... The cars would be quicker with it no doubt


Ummm, yeah ok....

[Martin_D]

Martin, if you open your eyes, you would realise that modern electronics do far more for the population than AWD will EVER do.

Driving at Buller last year in an XR6 anything above walking pace had the car flailing and sliding with TC on. Familys in Foresters looked on curiously as they sailed by. Then it couldnt get out the carpark as it had snowed overnight. Shocker of a thing in slippery conditions.

Traction is a handy thing if you are trying to get anywhere quickly in a car.

[BEARWOOD]

Driving at Buller last year in an XR6 anything above walking pace had the car flailing and sliding with TC on. Familys in Foresters looked on curiously as they sailed by. Then it couldnt get out the carpark as it had snowed overnight. Shocker of a thing in slippery conditions.

Traction is a handy thing if you are trying to get anywhere quickly in a car.

Ye iv often wished my car had AWD whilst racing in the snow, as thats what i often do...

[plonkerchops]

I agree, there is alot more to it that which wheels have driveshafts. At the end of the day GM chose to spend there development dollars for the ZR1 on a more powerful engine rather than developing an AWD system and ended up with a faster car than the GTR, maybe its the power, maybe its the weight and polar moment of inertia benifits of RWD over AWD, maybe its the lower frontal area and less drag they could acheive with a RWD over AWD, or maybe its a combination of all these that make it faster but the fact remains it is faster.

I suppose the 200 extra hp and 220 less kg in weight had nothing to do with it, even though the GTR beat them all out of the blocks

[zorro]

Davo you are right that a good percentage of the average joes don't need AWD on their daily commutes, and these average joes would have no idea what awd/fwd/rwd or even what engine is in their car.

The fact though is that their is a place for AWD and in application will walk on front & rear drive, I've been to club motorkhanas and all the serious blokes have evos/wrx etc and just kill anything else unless there is a lotus 7 or the like with someone who can steer.





Martin, the fastest race cars on the planet are top fuel drag cars with 6000kw and 8000 nm of torque and qtr mile times of under 4.5 secs they are the most powerful race cars and the quickest cars in the world. Guess what they are all RWD. Do you really think they are RWD for saving money as you reckon? as i said RWD and AWD all they their place in motorsport.

Don't forget to add the direct drive and multiple clutches that don't unleash all of the hp off the line, long wheelbase, VHT prepped track. Top fuellers are a bit more complex than the road cars we take to the 1/4 for a test & flog.

[BEARWOOD]

AWD is banned in top fuel drag racing. The cars would be quicker with it no doubt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you serious?

Interpret that how you will.

[gmeup]

Don't forget to add the direct drive and multiple clutches that don't unleash all of the hp off the line, long wheelbase, VHT prepped track. Top fuellers are a bit more complex than the road cars we take to the 1/4 for a test & flog.

Mate no deyning top fuel is a lot more complex than meets the eye, i was just saying that RWD has its place and application just like AWD some people choose to be ignorant.

[zorro]

All good mate :cheers:

[Martin_D]

Ye iv often wished my car had AWD whilst racing in the snow, as thats what i often do...

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD
Thats why the arguments here are from most of those with stockish cars, they have full traction in the dry cause they cant turn the tyres through lack of grunt rolling on in 2nd or 3rd gear :teach:

Ignorance comes through having driven slow cars all your life and thinking they are fast on the internet.....its a dumb argument

[Xjas]

I suppose the 200 extra hp and 220 less kg in weight had nothing to do with it, even though the GTR beat them all out of the blocks

It certainly helps, I would guess one of the reason its 220kgs lighter is because its not AWD, you could also say they had room in the front for a larger more powerful engine since they didnt have a front diff occupying limited engine bay real estate. Makes it a pretty fair comparison really.

[Xjas]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD

Just wondering how much power I need before its considered real power?

[Jamolad]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD
Thats why the arguments here are from most of those with stockish cars, they have full traction in the dry cause they cant turn the tyres through lack of grunt rolling on in 2nd or 3rd gear :teach:

Ignorance comes through having driven slow cars all your life and thinking they are fast on the internet.....its a dumb argument


Yeah but it all comes down to how and when you use your slowness and lack of power - I have flogged so many high HP cars on the street when they have not known we were racing (have even flogged AWDs that did not race me) :jester:

[FOON]

1041

1042

[BLACK 346]

................................................

[seldo]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD
Thats why the arguments here are from most of those with stockish cars, they have full traction in the dry cause they cant turn the tyres through lack of grunt rolling on in 2nd or 3rd gear :teach:

Ignorance comes through having driven slow cars all your life and thinking they are fast on the internet.....its a dumb argumentOver the years I've read many a tale of woe on here from guys who have been a bit injudicious with the welly in a variety of even stockish cars that have elected to spend bling dollars before practical dollars, and end up picking the pieces out of the scenery due to a litle bit of unforseen water on the road. Most common one I read is about guys who've spent a squillion making it go rooley fast on a dyno, and then want advice on which are the best $100 tyres to put on it.... A week later there's a tale of woe about how it leapt off the road of its own accord....:rolleyes:
To a large extent, AWD adds a huge security blanket to these guys.

[Martin_D]

It certainly helps, I would guess one of the reason its 220kgs lighter is because its not AWD, you could also say they had room in the front for a larger more powerful engine since they didnt have a front diff occupying limited engine bay real estate. Makes it a pretty fair comparison really.

Because its half the physical size, has half the room in it, and is made from twigs and tape - which is why all the trim/seats/fittings in a Corvette are shot in a couple of years, and ready for the crusher in under a decade. This has always been the way with Vettes, very cheap and nasty devices made of low quality materials.

[Martin_D]

Just wondering how much power I need before its considered real power?

When you can roll it on in second or third gear and boil the tyres to the rev limiter you have decent power
When you can do the above in fourth you are on the money - real power :cool:

[Xjas]

Because its half the physical size, has half the room in it, and is made from twigs and tape - which is why all the trim/seats/fittings in a Corvette are shot in a couple of years, and ready for the crusher in under a decade. This has always been the way with Vettes, very cheap and nasty devices made of low quality materials.

And yet despite all these shortcomings and the apparent RWD disadvantage the ZR1 is significantly faster than a GTR.

[sjhugh]

Both RWD & AWD make good platforms for performance cars with pros and cons, it’s a bit of name your poison and spend your money and there still will always be someone faster.
But to say the Vette is significantly faster than the GT-R is over the top.

Using the Norschleife as the fashionable benchmark for production cars, the ZR1 with 97Hp more and 206kg lighter did it in 7:19.63 at an average speed of 169km/h and the GT-R came in at 7:21.00 at 168km/h.

A difference of 1.37 seconds around a track that is 20.6km long. (1.37seconds over 20.6km)

Interestingly the new LZ1 Camaro (7:41.27) was about 22 seconds slower than the Vette and the Dodge Viper (7:12.13), 7 seconds faster.
I’d take any of these cars anyday, it’s a pity only the GT-R is available in RHD from the factory. I guess us Aussies just have to dream on and live with our 4 door LS powered taxis.

.

[zorro]

This is an unwind able argument, the gtr vs zr1 are two different machines. Corvette built to be lightweight an fast with a big hp v8, the gtr to beat Porsche 911 turbos :lol:

The reality is no two cars from different manufacturers are not identical so each in their own right have pros and cons to the other. They are both, to quote Lance Tran, "an amazing machine". If you believe that manufacturers lap Nordschleif with 'off the sales room floor' models then you are very much mistaken, the whole point is to hang shit aswell as show the cars potential so there will always be some secrets in them.

As I said earlier awd can make an average driver a not so average driver, if you bin an evo you probably shouldn't be driving then. Rwd is great fun and challenging, fwd is getting better with the quick ones like Renault, ford etc really making them work.

[plonkerchops]

It certainly helps, I would guess one of the reason its 220kgs lighter is because its not AWD, you could also say they had room in the front for a larger more powerful engine since they didnt have a front diff occupying limited engine bay real estate. Makes it a pretty fair comparison really.

ok , so a huge power to weigh difference is a fair comparison, then you'll think its fair that we compare the vette to the (AWD) Veyron which is 3oo odd kilos heavier but has more horsepower?
I reckon that would be pretty fair:D

[Xjas]

I was actually refering to video I'd posted of the GTR, Ferrari, Porsche and ZR1 but you are right it is also faster around the ring as well. I am neither for or against either car, just using it to illustrate the point that AWD doesn't automatically equal a faster car.

[planetdavo]

If Martin wasn't contributing to this thread it would probably still be about Falcon and Territory post 2016...:lmao:

Personally, I'd MUCH rather see 10 highly skilled race drivers mastering the (apparently ENORMOUSLY difficult) task of regulating engine output to just the one pair of wheels and tyres, rather than see 10 average race drivers looking like legends whilst some nameless computer geek from Japan's finest work is crunching numbers apportioning drive between the four wheels to maintain near perfect grip (til the same tyres let go, that is)
On road cars, as I said earlier, let the electronics nannies save people. Far cheaper than AWD, uses less fuel, and just as effective really (but maybe not as fast, for all those street bandits ;))

[plonkerchops]

yes , more hp and less weight does...generally

[BEARWOOD]

If you actually made any real power you would WISH you had AWD
Thats why the arguments here are from most of those with stockish cars, they have full traction in the dry cause they cant turn the tyres through lack of grunt rolling on in 2nd or 3rd gear :teach:

Ignorance comes through having driven slow cars all your life and thinking they are fast on the internet.....its a dumb argument

Ye my car probably is slow cause its a RWD Holden, its nothing special when compared to the mentioned supercars but this is a Holden forum so thats why im here, why are you here when it seems all you do is highlight there faults? Did you ever tell your customers how slow there car was going to be after it leaves your workshop because its a RWD Holden or did the scent of freshly folded notes refrain you from sharing this information. I cant understand why after you milked the LSx scene for years only now you tell everyone how ordinary they are.

[planetdavo]

Ye my car probably is slow cause its a RWD Holden, its nothing special when compared to the mentioned supercars but this is a Holden forum so thats why im here, why are you here when it seems all you do is highlight there faults? Did you ever tell your customers how slow there car was going to be after it leaves your workshop because its a RWD Holden or did the scent of freshly folded notes refrain you from sharing this information. I cant understand why after you milked the LSx scene for years only now you tell everyone how ordinary they are.

At least I'm not the only one who's asked the question. Some perverted form of "entertainment" comes to mind...
As many know, many more things affect ultimate traction than powwwwwwwwwwwwwwer or what wheels are driven. Tyre choice, tyre age, surface grip, suspension setup, tyre pressures, driver ability.....and we could all go on, and on, and on!

[VYBerlinaV8]

.....and we could all go on, and on, and on!

I think we already have!

[Martin_D]

Ye my car probably is slow cause its a RWD Holden, its nothing special when compared to the mentioned supercars but this is a Holden forum so thats why im here, why are you here when it seems all you do is highlight there faults? Did you ever tell your customers how slow there car was going to be after it leaves your workshop because its a RWD Holden or did the scent of freshly folded notes refrain you from sharing this information. I cant understand why after you milked the LSx scene for years only now you tell everyone how ordinary they are.

There are - many - fast Holdens out there.
Many fast AWD Holdens out there.
Seemingly you own neither of the above as you point out it is slow. If you own a slow one that is your choice.
Everything has faults, and understanding them is the key to making the car faster. Hiding them does nothing.

Whatever it is you drive. If you arent happy with it, improve it! All the options are there
I was racing against a Maloo yesterday that did pretty well out the track. Furby from the forum here. And yes we are going to work on making it even quicker around the track with him, by identifying and fixing its weaknesses - ie. HSV brakes that simply arent good enough etc. :cool:

[gmeup]

Fastest production car 0-100kph is RWD :) http://www.torquestats.com/index.php?car_id=102

[FOON]

Fastest production car 0-100kph is RWD :) http://www.torquestats.com/index.php?car_id=102

Thats not a true production car.

[jsme]

Who cares 0-100. Those cares have so much grunt it should be more like who's fastest 0-200 or something like that.

[VH-COM]

Just caught a bit of channel 9 news re: Ford considering more job cuts because of poor Falcon sales.

[bozodos]

it is interesting to see the falcon doing so poorly, despite the xr6t and fpv lineup logically being a better choice than what HSV / Holden have to offer.

That said, I was very tempted on getting a BF XR6T when I was buying my car, however the bad experiences with Fords with fleet vehicles in terms of reliability put me off!

[Jag530G]

Just caught a bit of channel 9 news re: Ford considering more job cuts because of poor Falcon sales.

Yes, the death spiral has well and truely kicked in. Sad really for the entire Australian car industry. Just think 25 years ago Ford were selling 10,000 XF Falcons a month, plus Fairlanes, plus LTDs, plus utes and vans all on top. Now they barely manage 3,000 a month of everything, Falcon, FPV, utes, Territorys.

Cheers, Matthew

[VH-COM]

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2012/06/13/332741_news.html

[Martin_D]

Falcon is leaving the building, Commodore is holding open the door for it.....
sad really

[VH-COM]

What happened to ecoboost .....it was going to be the saviour.
Maybe too early to rule out an ecoboost boost to sales?

[standup]

About two months ago when I was looking to buy a new car, I went to the local Ford / FPV dealer to have a look at the Falcon. They had no demos to drive (not even an XT), and their excuse was that they aren't selling enough Falcons to justify having any. The dealer was helpful and friendly, but I left feeling like they'd given up on the Falcon.

Went to the Holden dealer straight after that, and had a test drive of a Redline Calais and VE Clubsport. Guess who got my business?

[view55]

well i am very sad to see yet another aussie enterprise suffer at the hands of the "invaders"
all of us here you be proud that we made a choice to buy australian and keep us all employed
not sending our hard earned dollars overseas. double , triple , quadruple the import duty
for non aussie built cars !!!!!!!!

[Woodchukka]

The Ford dealer. :D


Sorry just could not resist.

[Pickles]

What happened to ecoboost .....it was going to be the saviour.
Maybe too early to rule out an ecoboost boost to sales?
Whoever decided "Ecoboost" in a Falcon was a good idea, would assist in "lifting" Falcon sales, was absolutely DREAMING...IMHO.
Haven't seen any sales figures etc, but as I've said before, I say that they will not even recoup their development costs on this "idea".
Cheers, Pickles.

[VH-COM]

Yeah it would be good to see ecoboost sales figures - but if they were good numbers we would know about it.


Goauto 24 April 2012
FORD Australia has conceded it faces a slow uptake of its new EcoBoost Falcon as it works to educate buyers on the merits of a locally built four-cylinder large sedan.

At this week’s launch of the much-anticipated new Falcon variant, Ford Australia president and CEO Bob Graziano revealed to GoAuto that the car-maker was targeting just 2000 sales to the end of this year.
This represents only about 12 per cent of total Falcon volume at its current slow sales rate..


Must have only been some of motoring media prior to the launch, who reported that it was going to be a larger part of Falcon sales.

[redvxr8clubby]

About two months ago when I was looking to buy a new car, I went to the local Ford / FPV dealer to have a look at the Falcon. They had no demos to drive (not even an XT), and their excuse was that they aren't selling enough Falcons to justify having any. The dealer was helpful and friendly, but I left feeling like they'd given up on the Falcon.

Went to the Holden dealer straight after that, and had a test drive of a Redline Calais and VE Clubsport. Guess who got my business?

I remember reading some ago ago that the XT was going to built to order as they were mainly fleet sales, you'd think they would at least have an XR6 demo, not to mention a G6 and G6E.

[Ghia351]

About two months ago when I was looking to buy a new car, I went to the local Ford / FPV dealer to have a look at the Falcon. They had no demos to drive (not even an XT), and their excuse was that they aren't selling enough Falcons to justify having any. The dealer was helpful and friendly, but I left feeling like they'd given up on the Falcon.

Went to the Holden dealer straight after that, and had a test drive of a Redline Calais and VE Clubsport. Guess who got my business?Isn't that like going to JB HiFi to look at a new Panasonic plasma and when they don't have one you go to Hardly Normal and buy a Samsung, never knowing how the Panasonic really compares, lol.

[kayman]

The Samsung was better already...

[Ausmartin1]

I concur the top lines of Samsung are better, the koeans are blowing away the japs sadly or happy for competion....
Our Sammy has got a sharp picture and hasn't missed a beat considering the oldies have it running 24/7 nearly.

Upgraded my phone to the sammy siii what a beut if can handle the size - which spares me the addition of a tablet.
Where is Sony?
That's right another 10,000 employees down and my beloved Panasonic - 17,000 down. The Koreans are killing them in product development and sales.
New Korea is the old Japan. Yes it's sad but Sammy is winning at the moment.

As long as there is competition you vote with your wallet - same goes with cars.
The point being world competion is so strong these days that any local manufacturer wouldn't be missed.
Other than more Australians loosing their jobs / skills / knowledge in manufacturing that other countries would die for.
If more Australians want more -cheap, don't expect Ford or others to be profitable or manufacture here.

[Ghia351]

lol, you obviously haven't seen a TH-P65VT50A

[Martin_D]

Its like the last 5 people in the world that care are posting here
No one really gives a toss out there in the real world about these cars. Let them die.
Have a look how the attendance on this forum has dropped off in the past five years..... :eek:
http://www.emeraldinteriordesign.ie/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/tumbleweed.jpg

[planetdavo]

Its like the last 5 people in the world that care are posting here
No one really gives a toss out there in the real world about these cars. Let them die.
Have a look how the attendance on this forum has dropped off in the past five years..... :eek:


Terribly negative input for a Holden "fan" there Martin. Cheer up old son! Maybe you need some Holden love in your life again. Holden hating seems to make you rather cranky the last couple of years...:bawl:
There are many reasons forum input could have dropped off. Since you suggest that no one is a Holden fan anymore, I'll add some extra possibilities...
a- people have gone and got a life.
b- people have realised there are better things to do with all their spare time than be on internet forums every morning and night wanksterbating over cars.
c- people are bored with the constant anti-Holden posting from the resident Ford fans and the rice fans- particularly those who "used" to love them when they once made huge sums of tuning money off them (before all the competitors killed his huge margins and he ditched Holden for Jap love of course).
d- time doesn't stand still. The new generation isn't into cars like the old generation. They are more likely to be on an Apple forum or facebook.
e- Holden have gone all European by extending model runs with almost no facelifting, sticking to mostly economy based improvements like the main market is asking for (with 3.6 V6 performance improvements @ SIDI of course). Since most enthusiasts prefer power over economy, they have far less to talk about.

:)

[planetdavo]

Whoever decided "Ecoboost" in a Falcon was a good idea, would assist in "lifting" Falcon sales, was absolutely DREAMING...IMHO.
Haven't seen any sales figures etc, but as I've said before, I say that they will not even recoup their development costs on this "idea".
Cheers, Pickles.

I get the distinct impression that the primary reason for Ecoboost 4 cyl Falcon being introduced is to "condition" the market for what is to follow it. It may not recoup it's investment in Falcon, but if it conditions the market into realising a 4 cyl Ecoboost large car can still have reasonable performance, what is to follow FG is likely to have a better chance of market acceptance.
All will be revealed of course, but it certainly sounds like any buyers of the current Ecoboost Falcon will be getting a car with pretty decent performance AND noticeably improved economy over the 6cyl petrol model.

[Ausmartin1]

Panasonic TH-P65VT50A plasma - Ah yes, Price and the main reason - running costs prevent me from purchasing it.
It's probably great in winter to heat the room, but in summer I don't wan't to pay twice for the carbon tax to cool it down !

[Martin_D]

Terribly negative input for a Holden "fan" there Martin. Cheer up old son! Maybe you need some Holden love in your life again. Holden hating seems to make you rather cranky the last couple of years...:bawl:
There are many reasons forum input could have dropped off. Since you suggest that no one is a Holden fan anymore, I'll add some extra possibilities...
a- people have gone and got a life.
b- people have realised there are better things to do with all their spare time than be on internet forums every morning and night wanksterbating over cars.
c- people are bored with the constant anti-Holden posting from the resident Ford fans and the rice fans- particularly those who "used" to love them when they once made huge sums of tuning money off them (before all the competitors killed his huge margins and he ditched Holden for Jap love of course).
d- time doesn't stand still. The new generation isn't into cars like the old generation. They are more likely to be on an Apple forum or facebook.
e- Holden have gone all European by extending model runs with almost no facelifting, sticking to mostly economy based improvements like the main market is asking for (with 3.6 V6 performance improvements @ SIDI of course). Since most enthusiasts prefer power over economy, they have far less to talk about.

:)

And of course the final reason
Holden havent freshened the car up in 6 - 7 years as they are waiting to run it out
Cynical indeed and Ford are every bit as guilty IMO.

The VE was a really good car in 2006. It struggles now, cmon Holden lets see the next generation (and it better not be a Daewoo!) :lol:

[adr8]

Well there might be some hope for large car sales yet, analysts are predicting that crude oil prices could tumble to $US50 a barrel by the end of the year in a 'worst case scenario' as the global downturn accelerates. Oil prices are already down 25% at an 8 month low of $US83 from a peak in March of almost $US110.

[ti0350]

Well there might be some hope for large car sales yet, analysts are predicting that crude oil prices could tumble to $US50 a barrel by the end of the year in a 'worst case scenario' as the global downturn accelerates. Oil prices are already down 25% at an 8 month low of $US83 from a peak in March of almost $US110.

Oil Prices coming down doesn't mean fuel prices will come down to far, look at the price of fuel now compared to when our dollar was in the toilet and oil prices were $150 a barrel the oil companies come up with an excuse to keep it high.

[Ghia351]

Well there might be some hope for large car sales yet, analysts are predicting that crude oil prices could tumble to $US50 a barrel by the end of the year in a 'worst case scenario' as the global downturn accelerates. Oil prices are already down 25% at an 8 month low of $US83 from a peak in March of almost $US110.Has that % drop been reflected in Singapore because our petrol wholesale price is pegged to the Singaporean wholesale petrol price while lpg is pegged to the Saudi Arabian propane/butance spot prices. I never understand why the local news quotes US oil prices when that has no direct connection to the price setting of our local fuel prices and also explains why they haven't dropped as much.

[shaneooo]

Its like the last 5 people in the world that care are posting here
No one really gives a toss out there in the real world about these cars. Let them die.
Have a look how the attendance on this forum has dropped off in the past five years..... :eek:
http://www.emeraldinteriordesign.ie/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/tumbleweed.jpg

I think another reason for forum attendance dropping off over the past 5 years is because the VE has been around for over 6 years and the posts have become very repetitious after 6 years of the same questions and queries...

I'm sure when the VF arrives, there will be a flood of topics and posts regarding the newish car...

Anyway I hope Ford can do something to keep manufacturing in Australia, I'm sure they are hitting their heads against the wall turning away the option to produce the Focus which now outsells the Falcon and has much larger potential in the future...

[adr8]

Oil Prices coming down doesn't mean fuel prices will come down to far, look at the price of fuel now compared to when our dollar was in the toilet and oil prices were $150 a barrel the oil companies come up with an excuse to keep it high.

True, same thing happening with the Big 4 banks not passing on interest rate cuts onto consumers.

[adr8]

Has that % drop been reflected in Singapore because our petrol wholesale price is pegged to the Singaporean wholesale petrol price while lpg is pegged to the Saudi Arabian propane/butance spot prices. I never understand why the local news quotes US oil prices when that has no direct connection to the price setting of our local fuel prices and also explains why they haven't dropped as much.

I have also wondered the same thing especially when they quote $US price of petrol per barrel then make the direct correlation to our petrol price. So I googled and found this "The benchmark for Australian fuel prices is the Singaporean Tapis Crude Oil contract. And while the Tapis price is derived from the Brent Crude oil price, it’s always slightly higher because it includes the ‘cost of carry’. A fancy economic term that factors in the cost of storage and transport."

So if going by the above then there is a direct correlation between the price of $US barrel of oil to what we pay at the bowser here in Australia, but I am no expert so dont hold me to that!
Cheers.

[185iboy]

Whoever decided "Ecoboost" in a Falcon was a good idea, would assist in "lifting" Falcon sales, was absolutely DREAMING...IMHO.
Haven't seen any sales figures etc, but as I've said before, I say that they will not even recoup their development costs on this "idea".
Cheers, Pickles.

Current edition of Motor the G6E ecoboost came out on top against the E-class and A6 4cyls. It doesn't mean much in the real world but Motor doesn't generally favour Ford much and it's good that the ZF6 beat the 7 speeds. Came out on top for braking and acceleration. Ford need to shout about this instead of letting these things fly under the radar if they want to suceed.

[Pickles]

Current edition of Motor the G6E ecoboost came out on top against the E-class and A6 4cyls. It doesn't mean much in the real world but Motor doesn't generally favour Ford much and it's good that the ZF6 beat the 7 speeds. Came out on top for braking and acceleration. Ford need to shout about this instead of letting these things fly under the radar if they want to suceed.
Yes, I did see & read that article, & I have to admit, I was surprised.
I also agree with you that Ford need to "shout" about this, but I reckon Ford forgot how to do that a long time ago.
Cheers, Pickles.

[planetdavo]

And of course the final reason
Holden havent freshened the car up in 6 - 7 years as they are waiting to run it out
Cynical indeed and Ford are every bit as guilty IMO.


Well, it's a cynical way for a poster to look at it anyway...:(
Whilst true that the GFC and near bankruptcy of the "old GM" has delayed VF a little, most of the lack of "refreshing" is purely down to item (e) of my post...
e- Holden have gone all European by extending model runs with almost no facelifting, sticking to mostly economy based improvements like the main market is asking for (with 3.6 V6 performance improvements @ SIDI of course). Since most enthusiasts prefer power over economy, they have far less to talk about.
The Euro's are masters at minimal cosmetic upgrading whilst performing significant running upgrades under the skin. For people addicted to fashion trends and boosting their ego by showing off their brand new facelift to the neighbours, it's a negative. For the more pragmatic buyers (as in most buyers), they usually prefer the money spent in other areas...:)

[bozodos]

If only we could all afford R35's!

Whilst amusing, it does seem that Martin only visits here for trolling purposes; however he wouldn't be the same Martin Donnon who writes for all of the car mags would he?

[Martin_D]

Well, it's a cynical way for a poster to look at it anyway...:(
Whilst true that the GFC and near bankruptcy of the "old GM" has delayed VF a little, most of the lack of "refreshing" is purely down to item (e) of my post...

Thats an old argument Davo - GM nearly went ass over tit in 2008 before the bailout. Now in 2012 they are one of the most profitable car companies in the world. Holden are backed by a) This economic power, and b) Massive government/taxpayer handouts. VF would and could of been on the showroom floor two years ago if long term survival of the model was the plan. And Bozodos, yes. What you consider trolling, I consider keeping both eyes open.

Dont bring R35s into it....people CAN afford Mazda 3s and they are buying them instead of Commodore. If that doesnt ring alarm bells, what does? :eek:

[mattnsw]

The Falcon and Commodore are dead simply because Ford and GMH didn’t read the signs and now don’t care and no doubt wish both models gone so they can concentrate more on vehicle types that buyers are now after.

Powerful engines may be the flavour of the car enthusiast but the average consumer (which is most) wants a car that is competitive on a wide range of levels and the local boys miss the mark on most. The market moves quickly and while new models and innovations are being released by other manufacturers, Falcon and Commodore continuously play catch up. Consumers are not fooled forever and sales figures prove that.

As far as the Euros keeping their customers happy by having long model runs while only doing running changes, that is an out-dated argument falsely used to try and justify the out-dated products of the local manufacturers.
The truth is, manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have released new engines, facelifts, models and model variants for their bread and butter entry level Series 1 and C Class models and they haven’t waited 6 years to do so.
Why?
Because their customers move on to other brands if something new isn’t available when warranties start to expire.
And now with such a wide range of entry level luxury passenger cars and SUV’s as well as cheap run arounds available from Europe and Asia, Falcon and Commodore are left wallowing in the tar pits with the dinosaurs.
They can’t compete on price, they can’t compete on luxury, they can’t compete on standard appointments, they can't compete with innovations, they can’t compete with SUV’s and they can’t compete with small shopping trolleys.
Their 0-100 figure in just over 5 seconds may be a turn on for some but not many, even those times are too slow compared to the Euro competition.

You’re all watching the slow motion demise of the Aussie car, don’t forget to take photos to show the grandchildren.

[bozodos]

Given how obvious you make it that you have no Holden love left Martin, it does beg the question as to why you are one of the regular posters on an LS Commodore orientated forum; and why not bring an 'affordable' sports car like the R35 into it? Thats what the V8 Commodores / HSVs / FPVs are for us working class types, however I see more and more people falling to the allure of used imports for such vehicles.

Unfortunately I can't see a very bright future for either manufacturer (without relying soley on local assembly of overseas models) without a decent export market.

Do you consider yourself unaustralian for not supporting the local offerings? ;)

[zorro]

Given how obvious you make it that you have no Holden love left Martin, it does beg the question as to why you are one of the regular posters on an LS Commodore orientated forum

Why would there be any love left? The gravy train has run out of stations, the VE is still the same car so can't flog any new product, VF is still basically the same car underneath so nothing new to offer anyone.

I've said in the past Martin when not beating his own drum is someone to listen to, but he isn't there to give anyone warm and fuzzies either, business is business.

[BA_XR6_TURBO]

It will be great if the Falcon goes. Reason being Ford has already made the decision to not make it a world car. If it stays it will always be an over priced half car. Car technology has come in leaps and bounds since the 80s. The 2000s saw the introduction of small cars and 4WDs that are now better than local large cars in many ways. Falcon and Commodore have been made into better cars, but not as rapidly as the world cars have. For one very simple reason, they have next to no budget in comparison because of the needle point market they are in. You can see the two household cars have gone from the flagship SS and the secondary economical car, to the economical car with all the luxuries and trim and the second car being the utility type car (ie serves it's purpose only, nothing special). Families get away with less outlay and less running costs and get everything the large car has with a little less space. No one cares about front or rear drive, I don't think most people really ever did, they were after the "package" as the HSV buyers now say. Now that package is there in smaller, cheaper cars. The smaller cars used to have no luxury in them, you would have to go Euro to get leather in a small or mid size car years ago, now you can get a fully decked out Mazda 3 with comparable goodies to a Calais and the similar safety levels.

Falcon sales and Commodore sales have dwindled away over the years and won't come back. The market share for large cars have fallen away and Holden being the more popular to the masses along with Ford reducing the models is seeing it prevail. Not because it is a better product, looks nicer or has fully sick flares. There are just less people seeing the value in these cars.

It will be interesting to see the future of the large car in Australia. The Mondeo is already Falcon size, but weighs less, as a commuter serves the same purpose as Falcon. The Falcon only betters it in the performance models.

[aussiemuscle308]

It will be great if the Falcon goes.

of course, no one has said it will go. 'One Ford' just means it has to use a common world platform. we can keep building them here off a platform like that. it'd also be a big cost saving to use common parts like wiring looms and other expensive stuff. That said, i think the current Ford CEO is actively trying to kill it off. (it was improving under martin burela and they shipped him overseas).

[Martin_D]

Do you consider yourself unaustralian for not supporting the local offerings? ;)

Not really I have purchased 1 x brand new VZ HSV and 4 x brand new VEs in the past seven years.
I have done my part to put enough money into Commodore to keep it afloat.
Have you done the right thing by Commodore?

More importantly are Holden going to do the right thing by the rest of us. Or is it all just bottom line for the US shareholders?

[VH-COM]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/yankeeclip/comm-1.jpg

This shows the technology advances Commodore achieved as it tries to keep up with world cars.
Where to next???

[planetdavo]

Thats an old argument Davo - GM nearly went ass over tit in 2008 before the bailout. Now in 2012 they are one of the most profitable car companies in the world. Holden are backed by a) This economic power, and b) Massive government/taxpayer handouts. VF would and could of been on the showroom floor two years ago if long term survival of the model was the plan. And Bozodos, yes. What you consider trolling, I consider keeping both eyes open.

Dont bring R35s into it....people CAN afford Mazda 3s and they are buying them instead of Commodore. If that doesnt ring alarm bells, what does? :eek:

I really don't get it Martin.
You haven't been a Holden fan for years. Almost without fail, you log on here every single day and every single night to tell Holden fans how sh!t their cars car, how sh!t they get treated, how stupid they are for not buying imported cars, how sh!t their cars perform in a racetrack situation, call every single non- VE/WM a Daewoo, and tell HSV fans their cars are either not special enough or are too expensive for what you get. And once you've finished doing that, you often throw in the odd ridiculous claim or 50! A few have come out in this thread alone...
Why the hell are you so depressingly unhappy on here? Do you genuinely not have anything better to do in life than to gain "entertainment" from this sort of carry-on at the expense of Holden fans? I can't even remember the last thread you posted in that actually provided positive help to a member, without being unable to resist some sort of rubbish to go with it.
Why, oh why...:confused:

[planetdavo]

The Falcon and Commodore are dead simply because Ford and GMH didn’t read the signs and now don’t care and no doubt wish both models gone so they can concentrate more on vehicle types that buyers are now after.

Powerful engines may be the flavour of the car enthusiast but the average consumer (which is most) wants a car that is competitive on a wide range of levels and the local boys miss the mark on most. The market moves quickly and while new models and innovations are being released by other manufacturers, Falcon and Commodore continuously play catch up. Consumers are not fooled forever and sales figures prove that.

As far as the Euros keeping their customers happy by having long model runs while only doing running changes, that is an out-dated argument falsely used to try and justify the out-dated products of the local manufacturers.
The truth is, manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have released new engines, facelifts, models and model variants for their bread and butter entry level Series 1 and C Class models and they haven’t waited 6 years to do so.
Why?
Because their customers move on to other brands if something new isn’t available when warranties start to expire.
And now with such a wide range of entry level luxury passenger cars and SUV’s as well as cheap run arounds available from Europe and Asia, Falcon and Commodore are left wallowing in the tar pits with the dinosaurs.
They can’t compete on price, they can’t compete on luxury, they can’t compete on standard appointments, they can't compete with innovations, they can’t compete with SUV’s and they can’t compete with small shopping trolleys.
Their 0-100 figure in just over 5 seconds may be a turn on for some but not many, even those times are too slow compared to the Euro competition.

You’re all watching the slow motion demise of the Aussie car, don’t forget to take photos to show the grandchildren.

Think you’ve got a little carried away with your view of the situation. It’s got NOTHING to do with NOT reading the signs! The only reason we have been able to continue a car industry capable of designing a car from the ground up unique for Australia is because we had often unique requirements (which the market previously liked a LOT), combined with government assistance to allow us to compete with the government assitance provided to many international competitors. Some overseas market’s also liked our flavour, which led to volume increasing exports and improved health for the industry. An industry that emplys thousands of people.
Since we’ve now become very international in our tastes these days (particularly becoming “little Americans” :spew:), combined with a massive Aus dollar, both the local and export markets for our large car product has been rapidly disappearing. Holden saw this a long time ago, and started local Cruze production to bolster production volumes. Ford was going to do the same with Focus, but canned it. I believe the reason for canning that will come out within the next 4 years…:bawl:
Every other car category is already well covered by international GM products, so Holden have no real hope in this era to design any other sort of car than Commodore. If people don’t want to buy large Aussie cars then they dont want to buy large Aussie cars, no matter what is done to them! We wont be designing other car styles that already exist in many forms around the world!
As for your claims that long model runs with little EXTERNAL change is outdated and an old argument is 100% false. VE in 2012 is a VERY different car to the one that launched in 2006, even if it looks familiar. Many different brands have model runs of around 6 years with little exterior change, but vast changes underneath the shiny paint. The Japs also do it quite a bit too- not just the Euro’s. VE simply joined them. You really do seem to fail to understand just how many things have changed!!!
Perhaps you are allowing your familiarity with the physical product and your desire to see regular facelifts as “necessary” to cloud your judgement on that one. If a buyer is determined to buy a small car for (often perceived) "considerable" economy gains, or for ease of driving in tight, congested city roads- or they want an "SUV" for the space, high driving position or (again often perceived) lifestyle choice for all those trips to the snow, beach and bush they will usually never do, then it is extremely difficult to convince them to buy a large local car. If they are that sort of buyer (and many are now), it really has NOTHING to do with the existing options being too expensive, too low on luxury features, too slow between updates or lacking innovation. The market is simply telling them their requirements have changed, and since Holden have to fit within existing international GM options, there is only so far as to what sort of car they can develop before they try to go down the path of what's already around! If people don't want enough large local cars anymore, and feel no desire to support local industry, then the inevitable will happen...but not for many of the reasons you feel.

[HSV Manta]

Think you’ve got a little carried away with your view of the situation..............

Long read but for my money on the mark.

Falcon and Commodore have a significant competition these days....something they didn't have even 10 years ago.

[Jag530G]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/yankeeclip/comm-1.jpg

This shows the technology advances Commodore achieved as it tries to keep up with world cars.
Where to next???

Where did you get this, not a bad chart. Mind you they are a bit out on the introduction of technologies. EFI and power mirrors were VK, Trip computer was VH, cruise control was VC. Electronic transmission was VL (on the 6 cyls), passenger air bag was VS, etc.

Cheers, Matthew

[Martin_D]

I really don't get it Martin.

I didnt think you would get if for a moment Davo. You work for the mothership, dont buy new cars, and think Cruze is a great thing.

I will have another brand new Commodore in the driveway if and when Holden can deliver a supercharged 5.5 litre powerplant in an alloy panelled VF, with the rear suspension problems fixed (or at least in line with the behaviour of any other MY2013 car), and a price tag that represents value for money. That is what I want to part with $50K plus. For christsake Ford VERY NEARLY did it.

If you consider demanding continuing improvement from a manufacturer to be belittling, ridiculous and rubbish, then you do truly represent one of the entrenched company reasons why Commodore is dead in the water and instead of meat pies warmed over Korean rebadges are the next menu. Maybe a fresh and innovative approach with young bright minds might have turned a different result for both companies?

Sadly, and genuinely very sadly we will never know. The spark that was kindled in 1999 with the VTII was allowed to burn out years ago now and those with the talent have moved on to other company projects.

[VH-COM]

Where did you get this, not a bad chart. Mind you they are a bit out on the introduction of technologies. EFI and power mirrors were VK, Trip computer was VH, cruise control was VC. Electronic transmission was VL (on the 6 cyls), passenger air bag was VS, etc.

Cheers, Matthew

It is a publication from AAAA (Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association)

Don't want to defend their accuracy but ....do they mean digital trip computer in VN?
Also....they may mean that EFI in the VK was not standard equipment and was in Calais only ? :)

[bozodos]

Martin, unfortunately with fleet buyers tearing the arse out of the second hand market (i.e the depreciation), and not wanting to swap cars every couple of years (with a novated leasing arrangement) I buy second hand (albeit from a dealer these days).

I do however, support the Aussie aftermarket industry. Speaking of which, do you still support Holdens at your shop, or are you R35 / Evo exclusive?

I find your posts amusing, but the enduring negativity would suggest that your motivations are trolling related rather than really giving a rats arse about anything to do with this here forum, or the Aussie car manufacturing industry, but yes it does pay to bear in mind that Holden is owned by a US based company. On the flipside, having a local car manufacturing industry has an associated flow on effect to the economy in terms of the suppliers / contractors etc (and is why they get bailouts!).

I also still think that Falcon / Commodore (and their HSV/FPV derivatives) still offer tremendous value and low total cost of ownership compared to most. This was one of the contributing reasons as to why I got a VZ over another Skyline, Evo or WRX. (other factors aside).



The biggest problem I find, at least to those in their mid 20s like myself, is the connotation of the above brands with 'bogans, blueys and burnouts', as well as the often tasteless modification scene and fixation on drag racing.

This does seem to be SLOWLY changing, and I'm starting to see more support anecdotally for the VE.

[Woodchukka]

Martin, unfortunately with fleet buyers tearing the arse out of the second hand market (i.e the depreciation), and not wanting to swap cars every couple of years (with a novated leasing arrangement) I buy second hand (albeit from a dealer these days).


People need to buy the second hand ones too. If they don't get sold then no one would buy new.

[VH-COM]

Territory looking good ..... not sure about Falcon .
Also .... when VF arrives, will it make the Falcon seem outdated and damage sales further?

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/CC8B5683C87D5550CA257A3E000B852B



Goauto

Australian production cut by 30 per cent as Ford Australia lays off 440 workers

17 July 2012

By MIKE COSTELLO

FORD Australia will cut another 440 workers from its local operations as it prepares to reduce production at its Broadmeadows manufacturing plant by almost 30 per cent from November due to slow sales of its Falcon large car.

The company said this morning most of the job cuts would come from the 1800 workers at its factories in Broadmeadows and Geelong.

The redundancies will be voluntary, but a compulsory program will follow if required.

Production at its Victorian plant will fall from 209 vehicles a day to 148, which Ford Australia president and CEO Bob Graziano said was because of the continuing decline in the large-car segment, with sales of the Falcon sedan down a further 24.6 per cent so far this year.

The production cuts mean the Territory SUV will account for almost half the vehicles rolling off the production line.

So far this year, Ford Australia has recorded 7695 Territory sales – up 52.5 per cent on last year –largely on the back of the popular diesel variant introduced last year. In comparison, Falcon sales for the first six months of the year sit at just 6846 units.

A decade ago, in 2002, first-half Falcon sales were almost four times that figure, at 23,921 units.

Ford center imageFrom top: Ford president and CEO Bob Graziano; Ford Falcon EcoBoost; Territory SUV.

News of the job cuts comes just two months after Ford Australia announced a record $290 million loss for the 2011 financial year, and seven months after it announced a $103 million co-investment with the state and federal governments that will guarantee local production to the end of 2016.

The $103 million is largely earmarked for engineering and design updates that are likely to be part of a 2014 facelift of the Falcon and expected to bring fuel efficiency improvements.

Ford Australia president and CEO Bob Graziano told GoAuto today that the investment remained on the table, and that the company had advised both Canberra and the Victorian government about its decision to downsize.

“We obviously are advising the appropriate folks in Canberra and elsewhere about the decision and the rationale behind the decision, and my sense is they understand the business factors that are driving this decision,” he said.

The redundancies are the second lot of job cuts in 15 months, after Ford announced 240 jobs would go at its Australian plants in April last year.

Mr Graziano said the company remained committed to Australian production until this date, but no decision on its post-2016 future had been reached.

Ford Australia believes it can stabilise Falcon sales, with Mr Graziano saying the company still expected sales of its EcoBoost four-cylinder variant introduced in April this year to pick up after a slow start.

The company projected earlier this year that it would sell 2000 EcoBoost Falcons by the end of the year, but according to a Fairfax report today, only 355 units were between the end of April and June, just 53 of which were to private buyers.

GoAuto is awaiting confirmation from Ford Australia that these figures are correct.

In a statement, Mr Graziano said the reductions were difficult but necessary, with “all affected workers to receive a competitive redundancy package, including training and career counselling”.

“We understand that, unfortunately, the impact on our employees will be significant, but implementing this structural change is essential to ensure the longer-term health of the business, which is important for our employees, our suppliers and the communities in which we operate,” he said.

Ford is not the only local car-maker to announce job cuts this year, with Toyota shedding 350 workers from its Altona plant in April.

The Japanese company faced criticism at the time for what were described by union representatives of heavy-handed tactics – a charge it strenuously denied.

[ellisjuan]

This is a sad day. I've long been a fan of the Aussie sedan.

Unfortunately, the writing is on the wall, and has been for some time.

Just 5 years ago, this forum was a busy hive of activity. If you missed a day or two, there would be dozens of new threads containing hundreds of new posts to read.

Those days are gone. :(

[CLUBRED]

Any truth to the rumour FPV are dropping the supercharged v8 into the territory?

On the flip side, if there's no local market to protect, what happens to all the import tariffs regs etc etc, will we end up like NZ. I'll have a $10k evo thanks (exagerated example).

[macca_779]

Any truth to the rumour FPV are dropping the supercharged v8 into the territory?

On the flip side, if there's no local market to protect, what happens to all the import tariffs regs etc etc, will we end up like NZ. I'll have a $10k evo thanks (exagerated example).

That would be metal if they did that. Would only be RWD though. Their front drive system won't be able to handle that engine by a long shot.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[offshore]

4cyl Falcon reminds me of the 4cyl commodore years ago totally useless and totally pointless. The people that signed off on that shouldn't be in the Industry full stop. But they did well in scamming money off Labor for the silly car.

[macca_779]

4cyl Falcon reminds me of the 4cyl commodore years ago totally useless and totally pointless. The people that signed off on that shouldn't be in the Industry full stop. But they did well in scamming money off Labor for the silly car.

Totally misguided mate. Drive one and you'll be surprised. Better than the 3l commodore by far

Bit like the ford 5l compared to an ls3. Yeah it's smaller, but with that blower it completely destroys it.

Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[silvervyss]

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/yankeeclip/comm-1.jpg

This shows the technology advances Commodore achieved as it tries to keep up with world cars.
Where to next???

Compare it to other makes, I'm sure you will find the same features were available in their cars a lifetime ago.

[Skedy]

ford marketing should be shot....
they dont advertise the falcon ecoboost or lpi at all on tv....
territory ads are on constantly and they are selling well

also having driven many ecoboost 4cyls in many ways they are better than the i6
just as quick and handle way better due to less weight over the front end.

they only lack in torque for towing and get crazy good fuel economy. they are definately not crap like the 4cyl commodore


they wont put the v8 in a territory
turbo territory was a fail and got canned due to slow sales. they wont go down that path again

[csv rulz]

The Eco boost and lpi falcons always seem to get a good review but as others have said ford marketing is terrible. I don't remember seeing a tv add for either of these two cars.
I personally think ford should have followed through with building the focus in aus. Like Holden has done with the cruze.

[CLUBRED]

they wont put the v8 in a territory
turbo territory was a fail and got canned due to slow sales. they wont go down that path again

My mail was the turbo was canned due to emmissions regs. And apparently the barra (I think) code name has been recently resurected. And the 8 fits as there's a handful of aftermarket guys doing it - relatively cheaply to.

I'm not sure ford marketing is to blame entirely, I don't know what budget they have to work with, that may be the reason.

[zorro]

My mail was the turbo was canned due to emmissions regs. And apparently the barra (I think) code name has been recently resurected. And the 8 fits as there's a handful of aftermarket guys doing it - relatively cheaply to.

I'm not sure ford marketing is to blame entirely, I don't know what budget they have to work with, that may be the reason.

Yep, if the 5.4l boss fits in one anything will :lol:

[Jag530G]

My mail was the turbo was canned due to emmissions regs. And apparently the barra (I think) code name has been recently resurected. And the 8 fits as there's a handful of aftermarket guys doing it - relatively cheaply to.

I'm not sure ford marketing is to blame entirely, I don't know what budget they have to work with, that may be the reason.


Turbo Terry canned because of emissions? That's a load of rubbish, Ford still use the engine in the Falcon. It was the low sales, no one's interested in a high performance SUV, Ford got sucked in by the car magazines pushing for a Turbo version. That's why Ford never bothered with the V8 in the first place. Outside of the extremely limited M63, X-5M market appealing to people with more money with sense, the idea of a high performance SUV is just chatroom product planning, there are bugger all real buyers interested due to the stupid fuel economy. As for the idea of a Miami powered Territory, no chance.

Cheers, Matthew

[macca_779]

Turbo Terry canned because of emissions? That's a load of rubbish, Ford still use the engine in the Falcon. It was the low sales, no one's interested in a high performance SUV, Ford got sucked in by the car magazines pushing for a Turbo version. That's why Ford never bothered with the V8 in the first place. Outside of the extremely limited M63, X-5M market appealing to people with more money with sense, the idea of a high performance SUV is just chatroom product planning, there are bugger all real buyers interested due to the stupid fuel economy. As for the idea of a Miami powered Territory, no chance.

Cheers, Matthew

Tell that to the Americans.


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[VL Executive]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-30/ford-expected-to-end-local-production/4164204?section=business

More bad news for Ford AU. The above stories were on the ABC's "Midday Report" and "The World Today" program

[planetdavo]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-30/ford-expected-to-end-local-production/4164204?section=business

More bad news for Ford AU. The above stories were on the ABC's "Midday Report" and "The World Today" program

Whilst looking quite probable, the toffs at the ABC seem to love nothing more than to stick the boot into troubled Australian car manufacturers, doing their best to kill them off in the public's eye well before it actually happens. Cue their Mitsubishi sales killing efforts within the last 5 years...:slap:

[Magnum9]

The first line of that story -

"There is rampant auto industry speculation that Ford will cease making cars in Australia sometime after 2016."

They must get their "facts" from this forum.