PD Supercharger & heat issues.

[Usdrothek]

I'm looking at getting PD blower (Harrop TVS) and have been talking to a few workshops about it. I think my VE needs the instant response down low in the revs.

While all of them said they will fit any supercharger I like, some have given me their honest opinions and spoken of their dislike of the topmount PD blowers for VE's. They told me that, even with an OTR and intercooler, the intake temperatures get rather high (90 degrees) and lead to a reduction in performance. Something about every 3 degrees above a certain temp = a loss of 1HP. Also that the replacing of the L98 plastic manifold with a metal blower causes faster heat soak and more heat problems.

Their summary is: although the PD blowers work, the 'bang for your buck' is not as big as you may expect. A dyno run from a cold engine may be great, but once the engine is hot, they don't perform optimally. These Harrop superchargers ain't cheap and I want to know what I'd be in for, before dropping that much cash on one.

Is this true? Anyone with a educated opinion on this?

[Evman]

For starters, forget Harrop and just get the Magnuson one. With regards to heat, they certainly warm up but 90 degrees is a crock. If you get your temps to 90 degrees then your intercooler water pump has failed. Having said that, on boiling hot days in traffic mine (albeit a VY but still an L98) will hover around 60 degrees, if not even a little bit more. On a cool night like tonight here in Perth whilst cruising along a 60km/h road it'll be sub-40deg (ie in the 30s). Water to air intercoolers are simply not as efficient with the volume of airflow these suck in. Remember that the heat exchangers that matter the most are between the blower and the heads. There's not much room in there for a heat exchanger!

Overall given the chance I'd supercharge my car again. If I bought a new car the first thing I'd do is supercharge it, it makes that much difference even with it showing 60deg intake temps. The lowest mine has dynoed was on a Mainline on a stinking hot day with a stinking hot engine and a stinking hot blower, and it still reeled off 495rwhp.

[heavyduty1340]

Evmans on the money

They are awesome Bang for Buck, and Id do it again without hesitation!!

And as Ev said - grad a Maggie, you cant go wrong .

[Usdrothek]

Why Magnuson over Harrop?

[heavyduty1340]

Same performance at much less $

Internal rotors are identical IIRC

[Usdrothek]

Thanks.

Are they equally quiet? Stealth is important for me.

[heavyduty1340]

Certainly are

Both have a whine to a small extent, but its not too in your face.

[CALDIR]

Same performance at much less $

Internal rotors are identical IIRC

Hi

Even though I wish the above comment were true but wouldn't it be more appropriate to say: similar performance at much less $$..."
I thought the Harrop kit's were a little more refined over the other Magnuson kits.

regards,

Richard
HRTSEN

[Usdrothek]

I thought the inlets were slightly different.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I do wonder then, why the performance shop told me about this supposed heat problem. They sell all kinds of superchargers including Harrop, Magnuson, Vortech and procharger, so I doubt they are trying to sell one brand over another. The shop owner did say he didn't care, but this was their assessment from their testing and none of them liked the PD chargers.

[Evman]

Hi

Even though I wish the above comment were true but wouldn't it be more appropriate to say: similar performance at much less $$..."
I thought the Harrop kit's were a little more refined over the other Magnuson kits.

regards,

Richard
HRTSEN

I've asked for proof a thousand times and never received any. The only thing that will make a difference that is even half noticeable is the heat exchangers under the blower. If Harrop somehow managed to squeeze exchangers that were twice as large as the Magnuson ones then I'd believe their advertised improvements. This simply isn't the case though. The big R&D is in the rotors and they both have the same pair. Harrop without a doubt have some fantastic engineering capabilities, but it's not like they're the world leaders in supercharger design. Magnuson design and produce a far larger range of blower kits than Harrop do so it's not like Magnuson are some backyard company just throwing the kits together. Couple that with the fact that Harrop charge us a pretty hefty premium when compared to the same kits they sell to the US and opinions start changing pretty quickly.

Fact of the matter is, if the Harrop kit was noticeably more efficient it would have been measured, documented and advertised loudly to gain a market advantage. They may well be more efficient, but it's obviously not by much if they are.


Usdrithek, they do heat up but like I said before mine still pulled just shy of 500rwhp on a stinking hot day. Side mount blowers simply wont have the same heat soak but they also have a different power delivery. The choice is entirely yours, but I'd be more than happy to go a PD blower again. If you want complete stealth then (I'm sorry to say) a TT kit is what you need. They will net more power and they're a lot better hidden, but they're not without their own problems.

[1BEAST2NV]

magnusun MP1900, 570rwhp, still has good street manners and power on tap, would def do it again.

[jimco]

Hi.
I had a Harrop HTV 1900 fitted to my VY LS1 5.7 about two years ago. At the time my tuner was surprised at the lower intake temps this unit produced,some 20 degrees lower than other forms of FI he had tuned.But ls1's seem to produce high under bonnet temps and heat soak is the problem. I can cruise mine for hours,stop and flip the bonnet and the blower is cool too the touch but in heavy stop start traffic it certainly heats up and gets as hot as the rest of the engine. I have an OBD2 scan guage fitted that shows intake temps and cruising shows intakes as low as 40 degrees all the way up to around 90 degrees on a hot day in heavy traffic. Heat robs power but once you start to move temps drop rather quickly,besides what good is all that HP in traffic anyway!.Regardless if it's an air to air or water to air intercooler it only works at it's best if you are moving. 470rwhp/850 rwnm.
Regards.

[Evman]

Wow jimco I'm really amazed you see up to 90deg IATs in traffic. 90deg is roughly what the coolant temp will be unless the aircon is on on a hot day, in which case it can rise to over 100deg quite quickly. The IATs should only reach the same temp as the coolant (ie 100% heat soak) when the [intercooler] coolant pump has failed and there's no flow through your intercooler system. Any ideas what your engine water temps were at the time?

[jimco]

Wow jimco I'm really amazed you see up to 90deg IATs in traffic. 90deg is roughly what the coolant temp will be unless the aircon is on on a hot day, in which case it can rise to over 100deg quite quickly. The IATs should only reach the same temp as the coolant (ie 100% heat soak) when the [intercooler] coolant pump has failed and there's no flow through your intercooler system. Any ideas what your engine water temps were at the time?
Hi Evman.
Yep up to 90 degrees in Sydney traffic,engine temps usally around 90 degrees to tops of 102 degrees before fans kick in. I usally monitor both coolant temps as well as intake temps on the one gauge and in heavy traffic the difference can be as little as a couple of degrees. Remember sitting still or crawling the intercooler pump is just circulating ever increasing hot water until you begin moving at a resonable pace or your engine temps trigger your fans. But that's an extreme example given a cool day and cruising can see 50 degree differences in intake / engine temps. A recent early morning trip from Sydney to Goulburn saw engine temps of 88 degrees and intake temps of 35 degrees with an outside ambient temp of 14 degrees. But even after 2 years it still brings a smile to my face when you bury your foot, lots of power /torque and 9.41 ltr/100k when cruising.
Regards.

[Evman]

My fans kick in at 90deg, which must be where the main difference there is. I think I've seen 70deg intake temps once on a 40deg day here in Perth after driving the car for half an hour, parking it for half an hour then driving it again. It didn't really want to get below 60deg for most of the drive home.

[Tre-Cool]

i have 2 harrop powered cars at home at the moment. both sit with a minimum 60 degree intake temp once the car is warm. sit still idling and it easily goes to 80-90 degrees. one even has a seperate fan on the intercooler. onc you get moving the otr blown car drops 10degrees instantly.

[evl.346]

i have a maggie 2300 on my ve.
i have a temp sensor in the actual intercooler coolant line just before it enters the sc and normally sits about 5-8 degrees above ambient air temp.
my IAT are normally about 6 degrees above the intercooler coolant which on avg is about 11-15 degrees above ambient. They do hold alot of heat once you turn the car off though and stay hot for a long time.
so many different variables but mine are normally 30-50degrees

[Evman]

I think it'd be worthwhile getting more feedback from others with Magnuson blowers with regards to IATs after what Dave (Tre) has said. The only time I've seen close to 90deg IATs is right after start up on hot days, but that quickly drops down to the normal 60deg once it's been running a bit. Today I was in a crawl for about 15 minutes due to a crash and the IAT only just hit 70deg before I got going again, by which time it dropped well down. Maybe I've lucked out and got a good kit :confused: If my IATs get into the 60s with the aircon off in normal traffic then I consider it out of the ordinary.

[jimco]

Hi.
Try Sydney peak hour traffic!. It's like letting your car idle for 30 minutes in a carpark.
Regards.

[VY-SV8]

i can vouch for that, i was stuck in sydney traffic a few weeks ago for over an hour moving about 1km every 15-20mins and i saw IAT's close to 50*C and mine is naturally aspirated.

[Evman]

Begs the question if there's anything wrong with getting intake temps that high in peak hour traffic in the first place then doesn't it. It's not like the power is needed.

[VY-SV8]

i totally agree with you on that point, even on a stinking hot day and i've been sitting in traffic for ages it makes almost no difference once i open the taps, that fresh cold air comes rushing in and IAT's drop right down.

the thing that works in our favour is once air actually enters the intake, it's barely ever touching anything hot (the only way heat can be exchanged between mediums) as it's really only in the intake manifold for under a second before being burned.

[1BEAST2NV]

I had my fan temp adjusted to come on at 75 deg to help with cooling earlier.

[dnos]

i have 2 harrop powered cars at home at the moment. both sit with a minimum 60 degree intake temp once the car is warm. sit still idling and it easily goes to 80-90 degrees. one even has a seperate fan on the intercooler. onc you get moving the otr blown car drops 10degrees instantly.

be interesting to compare IAT with a top mount blower, with cooler vs a vortech (or similar) with a front mount air-air cooler?

[ls2 cruiser]

Remember some of those intakes temps when at idle or in traffic will be a false high reading because the sensor itself is being heated by heat transferred from the engine and not only from the air passing the sensor. I would not expect the air that passes by the sensor to reach an actual temp of 90c . That temp i would think is false. In other words it is the engine temp and not the intake air temp. I have seen a few other types of blowers. The procharger that I saw had intake air temps that were not much above ambient. 35c. A turbo set up I saw was about 35c. Both had air to air intercoolers and made much better top end power than my Harrop htv2300. Most PD blowers need fuel to cool down the combustion temps. Fuel like E85 or methanol will do the job but in street situations may not be practical at all. All PD dragsters use fuel to cool and that is what we need as well.

[jimco]

Hi Guys.
Tech sheet on engine cooling fans Gen3 V8 engine management.
The PCM determines operation of the two speed engine cooling fans based on A/C request,A/C system pressure,engine coolant temperature and vehicle speed signal inputs.Each engine cooling fan motor has four terminals,two negative and two positive terminals.The two negative terminals are the relay controlled circuits for the fan operation.The two positive terminals are the direct power feed from a fusible link to the fan motors.When a earth signal is applied to one of the negative terminals,the fan motors will operate at low speed.When an earth signal is applied to both negative terminals,both fans will operate at high speed.
ENGINE COOLING FAN LOW SPEED.
The engine cooling fan low speed relay is energised by the BCM.
The cooling fan low speed relay will be turned ON when:
* The A/C request indicated (YES) and either:
* The vehicle speed is less than 30 km/h.
or
* A/C pressure is greater than 1500 kPa.
or
* The coolant temperature is greater than 98C.
or
* If the coolant temperature is greater than 113C,when the ignition is off,the relay is energised for approximately four minutes,this is known as Low Fan Run On.
or
* If an engine coolant temperature sensor fault is detected.
The cooling fan low speed relay is turned OFF when any of the following conditions have been met.
* An A/C request is not indicated (NO) and the coolant temperature is less than 95C.
or
* An A/C request is indicated (YES) and the vehicle speed is greater than 50 km/h and A/C pressure is less than 1170 kPa and the coolant temperature is less than 98C.
ENGINE COOLING FAN HIGH SPEED.
* The engine cooling fan high soeed relay is controlled by the PCM.The PCM will only turn ON the engine cooling high speed relay fan if the engine fan low speed relay has been "ON" for two secondsand the following conditions have been satisfied.
* There is a BCM message response fault which will cause a PIM DTC B2002.
* An engine coolant temperature sensor fault is detected.
* Coolant temperature greater than 108C.
* The A/C refrigerant pressure is greater than 2400 kPa.
IF the low speed fan was OFF when the criteria was met to turn the high speed fan ON, the high speed fan wil come ON 5 seconds after the low speed fan is turned ON.If both the engine cooling fan relays are ON, the PCM will turn OFF the high speed relay when:
* The engine coolant temperature is less than 102C.
* A/C request not indicated (NO).
* A/C request indicated (YES) and A/C pressure is less than 1900 kPa.
Note: All cooling fans will be turned OFF if the vehicle speed is greater than 104 kp/h.

Regards.

[Ken]

Unless the air temp sensor is mounted in exactly the same position, comparing the various systems is absolutley misleading.
The Harrop IAT sensor is near the head next to port #1.
The Magnuson is mounted more central in the manifold.
ProChargers & turbos are typically pre-manifold.

[jimco]

Unless the air temp sensor is mounted in exactly the same position, comparing the various systems is absolutley misleading.
The Harrop IAT sensor is near the head next to port #1.
The Magnuson is mounted more central in the manifold.
ProChargers & turbos are typically pre-manifold.
Hi Ken.
I agree that different positions will give different temp readings but what was the reasoning behind Harrop putting the IAT in that position. I would have thought that pre-manifold in the intake pipe as per stock would give the ECU readings that I would imagine did not need to be re-calculated with a tune. Was there any advantage or disadvantage with the move.
Regards.

[alian]

Thought as much with some of the low Air temp readings some are saying they are seeing.
Ian

[Kingston_99]

i have an HTV2300 fitted on a VY. i live out in the desert and sometimes drive her as a daily.
in summer cruising temps are at 60-70, winter time its sits at 45-55. my fans are setup to be on all the time unless im driving around. but while im sitting still the fans are on.

yes PD blowers do suffer from heat soak, but you realy dont notice the difference when you stomp on it.

[Evman]

So which is giving a more accurate reading of the intake air temp then? As far as I know there's nothing unsafe about the IATs reading high, it just means there's a lot of lost power due to the decrease in ignition advance.

[ls2 cruiser]

Harrop puts their sensor where it should be - in the manifold next to the intake port. That way the temp of the air is known as it enters the combustion chamber. If you measure the air from an intercooled turbo or procharger at the same position then the Harrop is hotter in comparison. Thats why you cant run as much advance in the Harrop set up as compared to turbo or procharger. If you ran methanol or other cooling high octane fuel with the pd blower then the increase in power would be unbelievable.

[Tre-Cool]

my biggest concern with harrops is the difference in fuelling to middle cyclinders compared to the rest and fuel mixture variance from side to side. my own and brothers cars have between .5 to 1.5 afr difference once warm.

[ls2 cruiser]

Tre cool, how do you measure the afrs for each cylinder. Is it a fuel delivery pressure issue or a Harrop blower flow issue? I would like Ken to comment on this.

[jimco]

Hi Guys.
From the tech sheet "The IAT sensor signal voltage is used by the PCM to assist in calculating the fuel injector pulse width,idle speed,canister purge and electronic spark timing.
Regards.

[Ken]

Hi Ken.
I agree that different positions will give different temp readings but what was the reasoning behind Harrop putting the IAT in that position. I would have thought that pre-manifold in the intake pipe as per stock would give the ECU readings that I would imagine did not need to be re-calculated with a tune. Was there any advantage or disadvantage with the move.
Regards.
There is a tuning parameter for predicting the speed of the air from the IAT sensor to the cylinder but not a parameter for predicting temperature, so I placed the sensor near the port based on the logic of being able to set the predictive dwell-time to 0. In the (early) controllers, there were no FI parameters at all so we had to be sure we were measuring actual charge temp (unable to calculate predictive). If we placed it pre-charge-air-cooler the tune would have needed to be very soft.


my biggest concern with harrops is the difference in fuelling to middle cyclinders compared to the rest and fuel mixture variance from side to side. my own and brothers cars have between .5 to 1.5 afr difference once warm.
Are you registering high or low AFR's in the centre?
I spent MANY hours logging individual cylinder AFR's and EGT's (on both chassis & Engine dynos) & tweaked the CAC cores to near-eliminate variation across the cylinders - effectivley using the CAC's as diffusers.
- Are you sure the difference is not due to fuel supply (rails or injectors)?.
- Does the differnce vary across the RPM range?

[SilverVH]

Ken:
Is there a worthwhile benefit from fitting a water or water/alcohol injection setup to a PD supercharger? Was this tested during the R&D stage of the Harrop kit at all and if so, what were the results?

[Ken]

Yes, there will typically be some power gains if the installation is done right.
However: There will often also be some resonably significant durability issues - both to the engine & the supercharger.

[Tre-Cool]

Are you registering high or low AFR's in the centre?
I spent MANY hours logging individual cylinder AFR's and EGT's (on both chassis & Engine dynos) & tweaked the CAC cores to near-eliminate variation across the cylinders - effectivley using the CAC's as diffusers.
- Are you sure the difference is not due to fuel supply (rails or injectors)?.
- Does the differnce vary across the RPM range?

Most of the variation is around idle and cruising rpm i.e upto 2000rpm. wot mixture's have a variance aswell but that could be the firing order. 1 car has the harrop dual pump system feeding a rail each with a crossover. mine has the kpm dual pump using the factory fuel line and feeds both rails at the back.

Lean mixtures on the drivers side are more noticable on hot starts.

[Woodchukka]

I think this link has been posted somewhere here before.

http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf

An interesting read about superchargers and heat.

[Ken]

Most of the variation is around idle and cruising rpm i.e upto 2000rpm. wot mixture's have a variance aswell but that could be the firing order. 1 car has the harrop dual pump system feeding a rail each with a crossover. mine has the kpm dual pump using the factory fuel line and feeds both rails at the back.
Lean mixtures on the drivers side are more noticable on hot starts.
If the variation in non-boost and boost situations is different, it is unlikely to be the supercharger causing the issue - the difference in flow characteristics from side-to-side to cause the variation you are seeing is very unlikely.
It would be interesting for you to do the same test on the same engine with a NA manifold.
What method of measure are you using?


I think this link has been posted somewhere here before.
http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf
An interesting read about superchargers and heat.

A VERY misleading & Kenne-Bell-serving article. It compares 1980 Roots technology with 2010 twinscrews. The SAE has recently done an independant study that was commisioned by an OEM, and the Eaton TVS was the clear choice in every catagory except for boost greater than 2.5Bar (>20psi).
I have designed twin-screw & Roots - I can also say with absolute certainty that many of the statements made in the Kenne Bell article are not correct when comparing todays technology.

[VY-SV8]

A VERY misleading & Kenne-Bell-serving article. It compares 1980 Roots technology with 2010 twinscrews. The SAE has recently done an independant study that was commisioned by an OEM, and the Eaton TVS was the clear choice in every catagory except for boost greater than 2.5Bar (>20psi).
I have designed twin-screw & Roots - I can also say with absolute certainty that many of the statements made in the Kenne Bell article are not correct when comparing todays technology.

is that independant study available on the internet... would be a good piece of reading as i've been looking for a new path for my LS based vehicle.

[Ken]

I suspect it may be available ... but you would have to be an USA-SAE member & it costs (a few hundred from memory).
I only got to read a hardcopy while at the Eaton R&D facility.

[VY-SV8]

fair enough, you wouldn't happen to know the name of the study done would you? it's a public holiday in QLD today so i have the day off to research this move to FI and i have a few hours i can spend trolling the net to see if some good Samaritan has made it publicly available somewhere.

my PM box is clear if you don't feel it right to post publicly.

[Woodchukka]

I suspect it may be available ... but you would have to be an USA-SAE member & it costs (a few hundred from memory).
I only got to read a hardcopy while at the Eaton R&D facility.

Dead shame would have been a good read as I have always been told that the screw type is more efficient.

[VY-SV8]

i had the same issues, i tried doing some research to find this study, but alas all i found was people who had read it.. or heard of it but no actual copy was available.

i did find this tho. http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/2005-2010/145169-tvs-vs-twin-screw-2.html#post2502475 it is a ford forum but it is a pretty good comparison of the compressor maps for both tvs2300 and the 2.3ltr whipple.

[alian]

Yes, there will typically be some power gains if the installation is done right.
However: There will often also be some resonably significant durability issues - both to the engine & the supercharger.
Ken, Is that Water or a mix that may cause rotor problems
Thatnks Ian

[Brett SS]

So which is giving a more accurate reading of the intake air temp then? As far as I know there's nothing unsafe about the IATs reading high, it just means there's a lot of lost power due to the decrease in ignition advance.

That also depends on if your car is tuned to take out timing aggressively. My street tune does take out timing when the intake temps start rising but my drag tune doesn't pull any at all.

Now to be able to do this I keep an eye on temps so that they aren't getting too high and even push the car along the staging lanes if needed. Anyone serious about getting a time will do the same and not just hotlap it with the bonnet down etc.

I've been able to run consistant back to back passes within a few hundreds and within 1mph with this tune with a best so far of 10.75@130mph.

My setup runs a PWR122 blower and with the intake temp sensor in the rear of the manifold the sensor itself suffers from heatsoak and skews the figures. Once you realise your temperature floor with FI compared to N/A and tune to that you will be in a better place than trying to keep ideas from N/A when running a top mount blower...

[Ken]

Ken, Is that Water or a mix that may cause rotor problems
Thatnks Ian
Any induced medium can cause issues - but the degree (pun) of damage may not be of any real concern to many owners.
If I was chasing the last kilojoule of energy, I would probably add spray nozzles inside the manifold pre intercooler core ... and plan on replacing the core as/when it eroded.

[Evman]

That also depends on if your car is tuned to take out timing aggressively. My street tune does take out timing when the intake temps start rising but my drag tune doesn't pull any at all.

Now to be able to do this I keep an eye on temps so that they aren't getting too high and even push the car along the staging lanes if needed. Anyone serious about getting a time will do the same and not just hotlap it with the bonnet down etc.

I've been able to run consistant back to back passes within a few hundreds and within 1mph with this tune with a best so far of 10.75@130mph.

My setup runs a PWR122 blower and with the intake temp sensor in the rear of the manifold the sensor itself suffers from heatsoak and skews the figures. Once you realise your temperature floor with FI compared to N/A and tune to that you will be in a better place than trying to keep ideas from N/A when running a top mount blower...

Being that just about everyone on here who has a blower is running it on a street car I think I can pretty safely assume that all of their tunes pull timing.

[macca_779]

Being that just about everyone on here who has a blower is running it on a street car I think I can pretty safely assume that all of their tunes pull timing.

Don't assume to much mate. I know of one special individual (I'm sure you can guess) who has tuned cars with the iat sensor pre blower.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[Evman]

Ah ok, fair enough :lol:

[Brett SS]

Being that just about everyone on here who has a blower is running it on a street car I think I can pretty safely assume that all of their tunes pull timing.

Mine is a street car also but as I tune it myself I can choose when I run a safe tune to pull timing or an aggressive tune at the track. There is a massive performance difference between the two and I just think people are selling their combo's short by having ultra conservative tunes without the ability to change them.

Tuning with a sensor pre blower is definitely not supported by me, just need to understand the differences between your N/A and FI temps. ;)

[Evman]

Mine is a street car also but as I tune it myself I can choose when I run a safe tune to pull timing or an aggressive tune at the track. There is a massive performance difference between the two and I just think people are selling their combo's short by having ultra conservative tunes without the ability to change them.

Tuning with a sensor pre blower is definitely not supported by me, just need to understand the differences between your N/A and FI temps. ;)

Yeah fair call. I was talking to Tre-Cool at the drags the other day and he mentioned something very similar. From memory he went from 120 odd mph (like mine atm) to up around 130 odd mph by playing with a few of the temperature related maps. No idea which though.

[Brett SS]

Yeah fair call. I was talking to Tre-Cool at the drags the other day and he mentioned something very similar. From memory he went from 120 odd mph (like mine atm) to up around 130 odd mph by playing with a few of the temperature related maps. No idea which though.

Yeah there are definitely good gains there over pretty much any standard tune but you need to be tuning it yourself (or have the workshop at the track tuning it for you) with the right equipment etc to take advantage. :)

[Tre-Cool]

I dont start taking timing out till 70c (with my harrop combo's) and it's only 0.5 degree and then multiply the previous number by 50% for every 5 degree's in intake temps. so at worse im only removing 2.5 degree's at 90 degree's celcius.

mind you this is mainly because mine will start a 1/4 mile run at atleast 60'c and increase to around 72c by the end. obviously if i start a run at a lower temp it wont increase to 70'c+ but the E38 ecu is a different beast to the ls1 and has alot more fuel adder's than the ls1 ecu. i.e even on dyno runs i will wait for a specific IVT (inlet valve temp) to come up otherwise it richens up the fuel. I could fudge this for racing to make it lean out quicker but meh, i get in, start the car up, drive to the line and race, then drive home again.

even running water/methonal doesnt make a great deal of difference to iat reading's however powerwise it's huge once you get the ratio of meth to water and final fuelling right. :-)

[Brett SS]

I dont start taking timing out till 70c (with my harrop combo's) and it's only 0.5 degree and then multiply the previous number by 50% for every 5 degree's in intake temps. so at worse im only removing 2.5 degree's at 90 degree's celcius.

mind you this is mainly because mine will start a 1/4 mile run at atleast 60'c and increase to around 72c by the end. obviously if i start a run at a lower temp it wont increase to 70'c+ but the E38 ecu is a different beast to the ls1 and has alot more fuel adder's than the ls1 ecu. i.e even on dyno runs i will wait for a specific IVT (inlet valve temp) to come up otherwise it richens up the fuel. I could fudge this for racing to make it lean out quicker but meh, i get in, start the car up, drive to the line and race, then drive home again.

even running water/methonal doesnt make a great deal of difference to iat reading's however powerwise it's huge once you get the ratio of meth to water and final fuelling right. :-)

Definitely agree with what you are seeing as my baseline for temperature is around 60 degrees also and I usually gain around 9-10 degrees in a 1/4 mile run. Seeing that I can monitor the temps on the day I don't pull any timing in my drag tune and can have consistent results.

How much more power were you able to make with methanol? I was able to add more timing when I swapped to my LQ9 heads as they dropped the compression a bit but they also halved the amount of heat increase in a 1/4 mile compared to stock heads.

[Tre-Cool]

i havent played around with methanol on the new motor, but on the old 6lt i went from 540 to 580rwhp and you could do a dyno run after run and get the same result.

[Brett SS]

i havent played around with methanol on the new motor, but on the old 6lt i went from 540 to 580rwhp and you could do a dyno run after run and get the same result.

Wow that's pretty good. I'm at around 510-520rwhp at the moment but with the stock pistons I'm cautious at trying to sqeeze any more out of it. With E85 or Methanol I'm sure I could see gains like you did but I might wait for a day I forge the engine...

[ls2 cruiser]

Brett ss, what advance do you run at wot at high rpm with your safe tune and what is it when you change it for racing? what is the boost you are running at wot at high rpm? Just to give me some idea. Thanks Russ

[Brett SS]

Brett ss, what advance do you run at wot at high rpm with your safe tune and what is it when you change it for racing? what is the boost you are running at wot at high rpm? Just to give me some idea. Thanks Russ

In the standard timing tables I run about 18 degrees on my street tune and 21 degrees on the drag tune. My boost is also around 10-11psi. I have been able to run another 5-6 degrees of timing safely due to the LQ9 heads which drop the compression to around 9.6:1.

The other difference with my street tune is I shift the auto earlier (6200 compared to 6600) and I pull some timing with IAT's where in the drag tune I don't.

[Evman]

Did you notice much difference with the street tune using the LQ9 heads? Making a change like that will the tune require a pretty extensive overhaul or just a touch up?

[Brett SS]

Did you notice much difference with the street tune using the LQ9 heads? Making a change like that will the tune require a pretty extensive overhaul or just a touch up?

The tune didn't require a massive amount of work after the heads went on as the main part was adding the extra timing it could handle with the lower compression. I ran the blower with the standard heads and could only manage about 15 degrees of timing but with the LQ9 heads I could run 21 degrees with the same AFR's. An unexpected benefit was the amount of increase in IAT's during a run halved with them.

The only down point is when driving around at part throttle at lower rpms the car is definitely less responsive and more sluggish with the lower compression.

[Evman]

Aaah ok. Thanks mate, always good to get opinions on potential future upgrades ;)

[Brett SS]

Aaah ok. Thanks mate, always good to get opinions on potential future upgrades ;)

No worries, glad to help out. What is your setup at the moment?

[Evman]

L98, 224/228, M1900, manual, VY SS :)

[Brett SS]

L98, 224/228, M1900, manual, VY SS :)

Cool, mine is a stock bottom end LS1, 224/232 blower cam, Patriot Performance LQ9 heads, PWR122 blower, 4.11 gears, 4500rpm hi-stall (probably swapping back to a stock stall soon to see how it goes), Dus OTR etc

[Evman]

Ah nice. I've got 3.9s in the back. The best I've managed so far is 12.1@120mph with a passenger on my KU19 245 tyres :lol: Nothing super but meh, I'm just there for the fun. I'd love an 11 on street tyres but I think I'd need a bit more practice to get the skill level up ;)

Slightly on topic, the IATs are usually up around 60degC before the run. Maybe a little lower if I'm lucky. I've never really taken much notice after a run though, I'll have a look at my video footage and see if I can spot it.

Edit;

Just checked one of my latest runs. Started and held 59degC during the run :)

[ls2 cruiser]

Brett, thanks for the timing info. I am about to put my engine back together again and will keep an eye on the tuning. I do have hp tuners but have not used it my self yet other than to scan. My set up is not that much different to yours. 404 cubes 9.6:1 static, htv2300 11psi boost, trickflow heads,cam 220/224, so the timing should be similar. I personally would run a 3500 stall with your setup. I may as well ask what your afrs are at high rpm and wot. 11.7:1 to 12:1?

[Brett SS]

Ah nice. I've got 3.9s in the back. The best I've managed so far is 12.1@120mph with a passenger on my KU19 245 tyres :lol: Nothing super but meh, I'm just there for the fun. I'd love an 11 on street tyres but I think I'd need a bit more practice to get the skill level up ;)

Slightly on topic, the IATs are usually up around 60degC before the run. Maybe a little lower if I'm lucky. I've never really taken much notice after a run though, I'll have a look at my video footage and see if I can spot it.

Edit;

Just checked one of my latest runs. Started and held 59degC during the run :)

Good stuff, the newer blowers are definitely more efficient as mine goes from about 60-70degrees on a run. However some of that will be due to heat soak of the sensor itself and not actually the heating of the air. I believe the newer versions had the IAT sensor in a better location and aren't as susceptible to heat soak.

My best was 10.75@130mph so it's getting up there but I know it's still got a little left in it as on that day I was getting belt slip at the top of each gear and I was hitting overdrive before the traps. Swapping converters could be interesting also as the 4500rpm one was over 1000rpms past my peak torque so I would have been getting out of the hole slower than if it was a smaller converter. Also the bigger converter has more slip so I would be losing power over a smaller converter when unlocked.

[Brett SS]

Brett, thanks for the timing info. I am about to put my engine back together again and will keep an eye on the tuning. I do have hp tuners but have not used it my self yet other than to scan. My set up is not that much different to yours. 404 cubes 9.6:1 static, htv2300 11psi boost, trickflow heads,cam 220/224, so the timing should be similar. I personally would run a 3500 stall with your setup. I may as well ask what your afrs are at high rpm and wot. 11.7:1 to 12:1?

Your setup sounds a hell of a lot tougher than mine though lol. With 404 cubes and a 2300 it should be awesome and sounds like exactly what I want! How come you have such a small cam for those cubes? If you are building it from scratch I would be getting a bigger blower specific cam in the 230's for sure.

I have looked at a 3400 blower converter from the states but this car will probably end up as the tow car one day so I'm interested in trying out the stock stall and just seeing how it goes in the interim. As for AFR's you're on the money as I try to run them around 11.5-11.8:1 to also give me a little safety with the stock bottom end.

[ls2 cruiser]

Be carefull if you are getting a stock convertor as mine ended up all through the 4l65e (converter colapse). I now run a fully manual T400. The small cam was designed for the landcruiser ute that it is in and I am running a billet 2500 stall. You are running excellent times and 130mph is right up there.

[Brett SS]

Be carefull if you are getting a stock convertor as mine ended up all through the 4l65e (converter colapse). I now run a fully manual T400. The small cam was designed for the landcruiser ute that it is in and I am running a billet 2500 stall. You are running excellent times and 130mph is right up there.

The stock converter we are going to put in will be fully re-built beforehand so it shouldn't have any issues. Would you be able to tow with the converter you are running as at some point this car might end up being the tow car... ;)