WL V6 Will only crank with key after starter being shorted

[SDH]

Hi,
I bought a WL '05 which has been used and abused. I'm in the process of getting it back on the road.
So when I got the car, it didn't have an ECU. I have since had a new set of computers (ECU, BCM and PIM) programmed for it.

The problem now is that when you turn the key to start after unlocking it, nothing happens. So I run a wire from the battery +ve terminal to the started wire that runs past the battery and the car comes to life. The car can then be stopped and restarted using the key as normal. It seems that once the car is locked, it goes back to requiring the shorting in order for the first start.

There are a few other problems that may be contributing but I'm not sure. they include ESP fault, Check Driveline and an exhaust leak which is causing an oxygen sensor error.

Would the computer refuse to start the engine if it knows there's an error??

[VTClubSprtR8]

So did we get a new key(s) with the new set of computers ???:confused:

[SDH]

Yes, the Automotive Instrumentation place programmed up 2 new keys for the bcm. Their suggestion was that the other faults were causing it but he sounded a bit like he was guesssing....

[VTClubSprtR8]

....to the started wire that runs past the battery and the car comes to life. ???

Whats this started wire? And what are these other faults, give us some fault codes so we can get a starting point.

Is the battery FULLY charged, have you checked EVERY fuse. I know these sound like dumb questions but we need to know where you've been so to speak, so we're not going round in circles.:) It sounds like an immobilizer, hi speed lan problem. Any codes? What goes on when it is running, dash lights, etc.

[SDH]

The starter wire is the wire that the Automotive Instrumentation guy showed me. It runs in a loom up passed the battery with a plug and socket that are right near the positive terminal. Quite convenient to just unplug it and use a short piece of metal to connect it to the positive to get the starter working.

Yes the battery is fully charged. It's only a few weeks old and has had the charger on it as well. It doesn't struggle to start the car at all though so I don't think there's any problem with it.

I haven't checked every fuse but I'll give that a go over the weekend.

I don't have a code reader so I don't have the trouble codes. I should of got them off the Automotive Instrumentation Repair joint. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I've borrowed an M.B Tech Cas810 autoscanner from a guy at work that uses it for his Subaru but I'm not sure it will work on the CAN bus.

When the car is running it displays the message ESP Error - contact dealer. and the check engine light stays on. I was told the errors were right hand rear abs sensor was not responding (which turned out to be because the sensor wasn't there which I have since replaced) and 1 of the oxygen sensors isn't working but I put that down to the leak in the exhaust.

I'll hopefully get the exhaust leak sorted on the weekend. It's leaking right near the manifold. I tried removing that section of the exhaust and cleaning the connection but it didn't make any difference. I'll have a look for a crack/split around the flange.

[VTClubSprtR8]

The scanner will be your best bet. Should be fine for the system in the vehicle if it is the CAN model. Should be able to read,clear codes. If you got the scanner for the weekend try this procedure in this order.

Ignition on clear all codes that have been logged in any control module that the scanner can access.
Swith off the igniion for at least a minute.
Without shorting the starter, with the scanner connected turn on the ignition and try to start the car.
If/when it doesn't start leave ignition on and then see what new codes are stored in all the modules that the scanner can access.
This should get us to see what the various modules are/aren't doing in regards to faults.

I'm thinking you might get some U codes, but I'm just guessing at the moment.

PS Have you checked the ignition slipring/key reader at the ignition barrel where the key head makes contact with the metal ring? Is that connected,may be worth a peek in the steering column to see if the key reader connector isn't off.

[SDH]

Thanks for the help VTClubSprt8!

All the fuses tested ok.

Ok, so I didn't have much luck with the scanner. I connected to the car but the error "Cannot connect to PCM/ECU" was the error that came up. I tried is on the VT and it wouldn't connect to the car at all.

Do you know of a scanner on ebay that will work?
Any of these better than any other?

MaxiDiag US703 GM/Holden Ford OBD2 Scanner Code Reader - ($219)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MaxiDiag-US703-GM-Holden-Ford-OBD2-Scanner-Code-Reader-/190396645333?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c54863fd5

MaxiScan MS509 OBD2 Scanner Code Reader Live Data - ($125)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MaxiScan-MS509-OBD2-Scanner-Code-Reader-Live-Data-/190437975611?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c56fce63b

AUTO Car Code Scanner Tool CAN BUS OBDII OBD2 Bluetooth Diagnostic Interface - ($24.99) & bOBD & ECU Tuning, Scanner & Reader Diagnostics SOFTWARE: Holden, GM, Cadillac - ($27.41) = $52.40 + Some mucking around with configuration.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AUTO-Car-Code-Scanner-Tool-CAN-BUS-OBDII-OBD2-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Interface-/130603079598?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e688cd7ae
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OBD-ECU-Tuning-Scanner-Reader-Diagnostics-SOFTWARE-Holden-GM-Cadillac-/251097108166?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3a768dcec6

I cleaned the slip ring with a bit of contact cleaner and checked the plug. No change though. I would've thought if it wasn't reading properly, the car wouldn't work at all. I'll unplug it and see if the engine runs.

[VTClubSprtR8]

Ok, bad luck with the scanner.

If i had a choice with the ebay items in your links i would try the first or the last option. The operative word here is TRY as if I buy anything on ebay I do so at my own risk, and be willing to lose what I forked out.:) Stung to many times I guess.

With the last link, software + a cable, by looking at the sales pitch there you would need the Elm327 adapter cable not the ALDL adapter cable, it's the cheaper option compared to the handheld too. Having never used these systems before, only GM or Snap-on diagnostic gear you gonna have to make a choice.
Mmm decisions decisions. :confused:

Good luck with whichever way you go. Hope I was some help.
If you go with any of the above options post up the results when you get them. :popcorn:

[vy2lx8]

I have an autel maxiscan ms609. Think I paid around $180 (can't remember) Reads and clears codes no probs. Also ABS compatible. Can log pid's and print data. I think it's a good bit of kit for the price. I've used it on a vy, a Ba falcon and a Mercedes ml320 so far without issue.

[SDH]

I think the Vz's are different to the VY's since when they moved to the Alloytec they use a different ECM. I've sent a message to the seller for the PC Software to confirm which cable I need just to be 100% sure. I'll order it when I get a response and see how I go getting it to work.

[vy2lx8]

Ms609 supports can bus as on vz too

[SDH]

Ms609 supports can bus as on vz too

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try the tight a$$ option first and then give the MS609 a go if I don't have any luck.

[SDH]

OK, so this was the reply from the seller... Looks like the MS609 it is. Unless anyone else has a cheaper option?

Short answer: Only 2 software in the world that MAY support your model are:

1) EFILive Tuning Tool (GM Cars only): http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=127

2) VCM Suite (GM and Ford Cars only): http://www.hptuners.com/products/vcmsuite_vehicles.php

IF your car is not included, then only OBD1 hardware handheld scanner will work.


--
Warm regards,

Andre V.
Sydney Car Mechanic and Engineer
www.TotalCarDiagnostics.com

[vy2lx8]

Hey mate, might have given you a bum steer on the 609, I just pulle it out and tried it on my vy adventra and no joy linking up???
I'm sure I have used it on my old vy ss... Definitely on the merc and BA.
Might pay to send autel an email before splashing out. I am doing the same now to confirm it's not my cable or car or something.

Sorry for the misinformation if I am wrong.
Cheers, Michael.

[SDH]

Cheers,
I've emailed Autel to find out.
In the mean time I'm going to give the cheap OBDII to USB adapters a go. For $12 with software it's worth the risk. Postage is slooooow but I'll let you know how I go.

[SDH]

OK, so the results are in. The errors are:
u0100 - lost comms with ecm/pcm - Not concerned about this as I assume it's because the device is not communicating on the high speed bus
p0030 - Heater control bank 1 sensor 1 - Oxygen sensor is not working. No problem, I'll swap them around and see what happens. Could just be the exhaust leak.
p0700 - Transmission Control Module (TCM) requested MIL - Not sure what the deal is here, the car seems to drive ok but I have another transmission sitting around so I'll swap whatever sensor are attached to the gearbox over.

But the problem still remains..... It wont crank unless the starter wire that runs past the battery is first jumped to the battery + terminal..... Any ideas??

For everyones information, I bought a bluetooth OBDII reader for $12.75 (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=Mini+ELM327+OBDII+OBD-II+OBD2+Interface+Bluetooth+V1.5+Auto+Diagnostic+S canner) and the software I used was the free Torque application for Android through the market place/google play! Even the free software reads and clears faults and has customizable displays. Awesome app so I bought the Pro version for $4.85

[VTClubSprtR8]

Ok, interesting. You are going to have to get the PIM linked to the PCM,BCM at a holden dealer I'm afraid. It's called an Immobilizer Function Programming procedure. Only a Tech2 can do this and is VIN specific with acces to GM info. I doubt the car came with it's security card in the glove box, unless the company that replaced your modules had access to the security info, just didn't do the security link procedure.

What modules were replaced?
ECM - (In the engine bay)?
BCM - (Up under the dash)?
PIM - (Attached to the fuse block panel under the dash)?

The P0700 DTC could be because of the emissions related Oxy sensor code.

Did you clear all codes then try to start the car or just hook up the scanner and read the codes?

[SDH]

The auto electrician replaced all the computers (Ecu, pim,tcm and bcm) and programmed new keys. He has a Tech 2 as well so surely if the they needed to relearn something he would of done it? I can always ask again though. He gave me the old computers so I'm sure he replaced them. Maybe he changed the VIN in some of the computers and not others.... He also gave me the BCM security code.

I tried to clear all the codes and the dash made a few peeping noises but on the next read, the errors were still there.

Next step I guess will be to fix the exhaust, muck around with the oxygen sensors, get a temp registration permit and take it back to the auto elec unless you have some more good advice?

[VTClubSprtR8]

Before you go and try and get a temp permit I would recommend getting your hands on a good service manual like Haynes or Gregory's publication for your model of vehicle. Repco or Supercheap Auto sells them. Personally i would get the Haynes published one as they go into more detail IMO than the Gregory's ones. This will give you wiring diagrams to check circuits with. This is if you want to go down the path of doing it yourself. if you do decide to get a manual for it, check for continuity of the serial data line from the BCM to the PIM. If this circuit is fine then the electrician may not have LINKED the modules.

IMO. without being there to see and look at the car it's hard to diagnose. I like to be hands on when it comes to this stuff.
Hope you have some success with it.

Oh and if you havn't one already get a digital multimeter.

[SDH]

I do have a general idea of what I'm doing although my experience has been with a vt previosly. I'm an electrical engineer so the usual electrical problems are no worries. But when it comes to the programming of the computer it's a bit of an unknown. Short of pulling out eproms and searching through pages of code and trying to disipher the crummy wiring diagrams the Haynes sell it's a lot of work for something that I'd hoped someone on here may have solved before.
I've got the genuine Holden CD for the VT's which is great. If only i was as easy as to get the newer cars.

[SDH]

Success! The oxygen sensor was broken. I replaced it and the exhaust is no longer leaking and the oxygen sensor error is now cleared. The car also starts up as usual now so it was nothing to do with the computers being linked.

Transmission error remains and I noticed it hesitated getting from 2nd to 3rd. But I'll drive it a bit more (after registration) and see how it goes, change it when I have a spare day.

Next step - replace a few globes, replace the drivers door trim and go for a road worthy.

[SDH]

I take it back... the problem has returned with the non starting business... I'm still working on the car so it doesn't get used much, but yeah, it still needs to be "hot wired" to start the first time.