View Full Version : Accidently hook battery cable up backward on a VE V6, what have I stuff?
Ok so I went to give a mate a hand who was changing the battery in his car (VE V6 auto), he had removed the old battery and the boot blew shut, we could not find the boot release cable, (when we got the boot open we found that someone had jammed the cable in behind the back of seat where you coundn't feel it when reaching in from the rear seat) anyways we got the new battery and connected it to the jump start posts under the bonnet to supply power to unlatch the boot but me be my usual idiotic self connected the battery cables the wrong way around. There was a small spark and I realised and connected them the right way (the ignition was off when they were connected wrong), after connecting the leads the correct way the boot unlocked fine, after he fitted the new battery he started the car and it made a funny clicking noise while cranking but still started, so we shut it off and tried again and it started as normal, no warning lights on or anything so I thought thank f##k I didn't stuff anything. But today I found out that the car has been shutting down and generally behaving strange so I am wondering what I might have damaged on the car? He told me his mechanic told him what I'd done had stuffed his car and it was going to cost heaps to fix, which is a pain in the a$$ as I'll be paying for it, I am going to go have a look at the car as one of the symptoms he has was "it just shuts down and looses everthing" so I'm hoping its just a loose battery lead or terminal but I doubt it."
So does anyone know what component are easily damaged or anything else I should look at?
BTW I already know I'm a dumb s##t for connecting them backward so there is no real need to point that out:doh:.
Toddler78
27-07-2012, 08:38 PM
That's why fuses are there. I could have effected the ecu but the conspiracy theorist in me suggests the mechanic has seen $$$$$ in his eyes when your mate told him what you had done. Me personally how can he say it's gooing to cost mega $$$ to fix of he doesn't know what is wrong with it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nutter
27-07-2012, 08:39 PM
The clicking while cranking sounds like the jumper leads weren't on well enough, especially since it started after.... You say it shuts down and looses everything are we talking all electrical function? Lights, doors dash etc? If you have fried something it could be as basic as a relay or as complicated as the bcm or pcm etc..... I would be first checking that all connections on the battery are correct and going from there.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk 2
The clicking while cranking sounds like the jumper leads weren't on well enough, especially since it started after.... You say it shuts down and looses everything are we talking all electrical function? Lights, doors dash etc? If you have fried something it could be as basic as a relay or as complicated as the bcm or pcm etc..... I would be first checking that all connections on the battery are correct and going from there.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk 2
Sorry I wasnt clear there, we didn't jump start the car, once we had the boot open he installed the new battery and started the car on that.
I havent go the full story yet but it sounds to me like everything electrical drops out thats why I am hoping its just a loose leed.
Nutter
27-07-2012, 08:48 PM
Again if the terminals were put on loose on the new battery the starter solenoid will click like crazy..... Might be as stated above the mechanic being shifty that's why I suggest starting with the battery and terminals just in case it saves you $
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk 2
Again if the terminals were put on loose on the new battery the starter solenoid will click like crazy..... Might be as stated above the mechanic being shifty that's why I suggest starting with the battery and terminals just in case it saves you $
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk 2
Heres hoping.
I'll find out when I go have a look at the car tomorrow.
macca_779
27-07-2012, 08:52 PM
That's why fuses are there. I could have effected the ecu but the conspiracy theorist in me suggests the mechanic has seen $$$$$ in his eyes when your mate told him what you had done. Me personally how can he say it's gooing to cost mega $$$ to fix of he doesn't know what is wrong with it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A fuze protects a circuit from an over current condition. Doesn't do squat if you reverse it.
Hard to say what's happened really. A random shut down is well.. Random.
A mechanic wont be any good here. An auto elec will be more appropriate.
VE's have some real quirks with their power routines. Checking the battery is properly connected would be a good start. Normally that wouldn't be an issue as the car will still run exclusively off the alternator, all be it not very good for it. But in a VE I can't say I'd be surprised if disconnecting the battery while running does some weird shit
Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk HD
JezzaB
28-07-2012, 08:14 AM
Usually you will blow the diodes in the alternator but you will know about that if it happened. Most cars will take a reverse polarity for a brief sparking moment.
JezzaB
28-07-2012, 08:15 AM
A fuze protects a circuit from an over current condition. Doesn't do squat if you reverse it.
Hard to say what's happened really. A random shut down is well.. Random.
A mechanic wont be any good here. An auto elec will be more appropriate.
VE's have some real quirks with their power routines. Checking the battery is properly connected would be a good start. Normally that wouldn't be an issue as the car will still run exclusively off the alternator, all be it not very good for it. But in a VE I can't say I'd be surprised if disconnecting the battery while running does some weird shit
Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk HD
The alternator is run by the ECM with PWM.
should've hooked up a projector battery charger to open boot ,
that way it would've sensed the fuk up .
Check battery' fully charged , low charge would explain clicking .
yes it's new , but who knows how long it's been sitting .
1BEAST2NV
28-07-2012, 12:10 PM
I'd go thrugh and check all the fuses for starters,
Dis-connect the battery and leave it off for afew minutes, and then connect it back up,usually it will reset the car as normal.
Nutter
28-07-2012, 12:50 PM
Aa blown fuse is not going to be intermittent which I think he said it was In the first post.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk 2
Woodchukka
28-07-2012, 02:12 PM
I'd go thrugh and check all the fuses for starters,
Dis-connect the battery and leave it off for afew minutes, and then connect it back up,usually it will reset the car as normal.
I agree with this. It is amazing what problems will be resolved when you do this.
brente1982
28-07-2012, 02:17 PM
Or just pull out the ECU fuse in the little black fuse box above the battery, turn the key to ON, but dont start it, then turn it off and replace the fuse.
swingtan
28-07-2012, 02:49 PM
Given there was no battery in the car at the time of the mistake, the normal damage caused by reversing the connections of a jumper cable won't happen. If the car had a battery installed and then another battery was connected in reverse polarity, you'd have a 24v battery with a dead short and a massive voltage spike. The spike would probably take out a few electrical components including the ECM and TCM.
Given there was no battery in place, a simple reverse polarity should not have had sufficient charge to do similar damage, as most all modern equipment has some amount of reverse polarity protection. If the car has times of "normal running", then it's unlikely that the ECM / TCM have been damaged. I'd be checking....
That the terminals on the battery were actually cleaned prior to installation. The batteries come with a protective oxide coating on the terminals which must be removed when it's installed. If the terminals were black or dark grey, then they were not cleaned. They should be bright and shiny if they are clean.
Check the terminals on the battery leads were actually cleaned. These also must be cleaned prior to fitting a new battery.
Check the terminals are tight, as well as all connections around the battery leads.
Check the fusable link, ensure it is still in good condition.
The initial "clicking" while cranking sounds like low voltage to the starter relay / solenoid. I'm going to guess that the terminals on the battery were not cleaned, many forget this basic step.
Then again if I'm wrong, you've fried the ECM / TCM / BCM.......
Simon.
brente1982
28-07-2012, 04:20 PM
I think the OP has now stated twice that the the car was never jump started. He put the battery in the car and connected the cables wrongly, IE positive to negative cable and negative to positive cable when the spark happened. He then rectified it and the car started fine albeit with the clicking noise.
steve_t
28-07-2012, 04:36 PM
I think the OP has now stated twice that the the car was never jump started. He put the battery in the car and connected the cables wrongly, IE positive to negative cable and negative to positive cable when the spark happened. He then rectified it and the car started fine albeit with the clicking noise.
Is that in response to Simon's post?
Given there was no battery in the car at the time of the mistake...
Simon.
brente1982
28-07-2012, 05:18 PM
yeh it was steve. Cheers :)
Update time.
Went and had a look at the car myself today and got the full story about what it is doing, initally he told me it was shutting down but it was actually stalling.
The current symptoms are as follows; the car runs rough, like its running on 3 cylinders, which make since since my scanner shows its logging fault codes P0300 (General misfire), P0302 (Misfire cylinder 2),P0304 (Misfire cylinder 4), P0306 (Misfire cylinder 6), initially the car smells very rich out the passenger side exhaust.
The car responds accordingly, after enough misfires it cuts fuel to the cylinders that are misfiring (you can scan the inj pluse width for each individual cylidner on an alloytec) and the the car ticks away on 3 cylinders with the check engine light on.
It is also logging a "crankshaft to LH intake camshaft position" fault but it has been doing this for a while apparently, is supposed to be common on alloytecs, something to do with a stretched timing chain or something.
With all this in mind I have checked the battery connections, I made sure the was a good earth at engine by running jumper leads from the engien block to the negative terminal on the battery, before anyone asks I double checked it was the negative first before connecting it:confused:.
I disconnected the ECU for 10mins and reconnected with no change.
Disconnected the battery for 10mins with no change.
Checked the fuses and they were ok, I found it has a fuse for ignition for odd cylinders and another for even cylinders, thought I was onto something but alas they both had 12 volts on each side, each coil plug was getting 12 volts from its respective fuse, I guess the ECU switches the earth to turn the spark on and off.
Had a good look over and wiggle of the harness for the coils and all appears ok.
Looks like I have fried the ignition driver in the ECU for the even cylinders (left bank), a good search show up a few people with the same issue but no concrete cause, I know a vacuum leak on that side or a blocked cat could cause misfires on one bank only but it was fine before the battery change.
Intersting that with it misfiring on all cyinders of one bank the O2 sensor voltage for both banks still stayed around 445mv, I've never logged a alloytec before so I dont know if this is normal, may have been because the engine was cold maybe.
Anyone know what a new ECU for a Allytec is gonna cost me?
swingtan
28-07-2012, 08:20 PM
I'd almost be temped to say you've blown a coil pack, all cylinders on one bank (2,4,6) makes me suspect it's just the coil pack.
Wish it were that simple, they are individual coil on plug so I doubt thats the issue but at this point I'm not ruling anything out.
V8_Power
28-07-2012, 09:07 PM
How did you get them the wrong way around? Apart from the + and - signs, the positive terminal has a larger diameter than the negative to stop average people putting the leads on the wrong way around.
redvxr8clubby
28-07-2012, 09:22 PM
How did you get them the wrong way around? Apart from the + and - signs, the positive terminal has a larger diameter than the negative to stop average people putting the leads on the wrong way around.
He was using jump leads, in the engine bay - no battery in the boot at that time, obviously didn't pay enough attention to polarity markings.
Gmfan
28-07-2012, 09:25 PM
How did you get them the wrong way around? Apart from the + and - signs, the positive terminal has a larger diameter than the negative to stop average people putting the leads on the wrong way around.
From what i can see he hooked jumper cables up wrong ie. clips not battery terminals. Diameter of terminal posts would not matter in this instance and could easily be done. Without the plastic covers on like new batteries have, there is very little to distinguish between positive and negative on some batteries. My optima batteries have just a raised + i think near positive terminal but it is same colour as rest of battery top.
mjrandom
28-07-2012, 09:51 PM
Cannot really suggest anything though it doesn't sound good. From your original description I would be surprised if the ECU is dead. Is disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes long enough? I have heard that to reset the brain it needs to be left disconnected for an hour or more, likely an internal battery in the ECU to keep the settings for simple battery replacements and it would have to last for more than 10 minutes I would think.
How did you get them the wrong way around?
Keep wondering that myself, they were the wrong way around on the jump start posts in the engine bay, I have jump started 100s of trucks/plant machines/boats/cars over the years and should know better, I guess I just got complacent.
brente1982
29-07-2012, 09:06 AM
Cannot really suggest anything though it doesn't sound good. From your original description I would be surprised if the ECU is dead. Is disconnecting the battery for 10 minutes long enough? I have heard that to reset the brain it needs to be left disconnected for an hour or more, likely an internal battery in the ECU to keep the settings for simple battery replacements and it would have to last for more than 10 minutes I would think.
I thought i read somewhere, that all you had to do was remove the ECU fuse from the fuse box above the battery in the boot, turn key to on but not start it, so that it does its system check on the dash. Then turn it off and replace the fuse. That should reset the ECU.
I did this same procedure with my car when i got a 'Contact Dealer' warning and could get rid of it prior to reading about this procedure.
redvxr8clubby
29-07-2012, 09:38 AM
Something that's always concerned me but never been a problem for me is when you go to start the car and the solenoid chatters due to insufficient volts/ current under load when the starter kicks in, is that when the solenoid is releasing you would have back EMF's coming off the solenoid coil as it operates and releases again. I have the problem with the solenoid chattering pretty often on the Clubby as it sits around for weeks and is common for the battery to be near flat by the time I go to start it. I've never had any problem though charge it up and all good to go. I do often wonder is this a problem, or perhaps as the battery is low and you have that load of the ignition being on perhaps the back voltage generated just isn't enough to cause a problem.
Update time.
Went and had a look at the car myself today and got the full story about what it is doing, initally he told me it was shutting down but it was actually stalling.
The current symptoms are as follows; the car runs rough, like its running on 3 cylinders, which make since since my scanner shows its logging fault codes P0300 (General misfire), P0302 (Misfire cylinder 2),P0304 (Misfire cylinder 4), P0306 (Misfire cylinder 6), initially the car smells very rich out the passenger side exhaust.
The car responds accordingly, after enough misfires it cuts fuel to the cylinders that are misfiring (you can scan the inj pluse width for each individual cylidner on an alloytec) and the the car ticks away on 3 cylinders with the check engine light on.
are all the spark plug leads connected , are the spark plugs o.k. , are the leads o.k. ........... the whole thing could be a coincidence .
are all the spark plug leads connected , are the spark plugs o.k. , are the leads o.k. ........... the whole thing could be a coincidence .
Its coil on plug so there are no leads to worry about, I didnt pull the plugs to check them although its possible it seem unlikely that 3 would go on one side at the same time. Something else I've been wonder is about the timing chain, The car is an 06 which had and issue with timing chain stretch, it has had a stretched chain for a while, thats apparently why it has a logged a "crankshaft to LH intake camshaft position" code, his mechanic told him other than the engine light been on it probably wont do any damage but I think if the chain stretched far enough it may have skipped a tooth on the exhaust cam gear putting the exhaust cam out of time (the lower rated alloytecs only have variable intake cams, the exhaust one is fixed and therefore its position is not mointered by the ECU), that would explain the all the misfiring only on one bank of cylinders. It out of my hands now anyway, I have told him to have it towed to an auto sparky on monday, if it turns out to be something electrical damaged from connecting the leads backwards I will fix him up for the bill.
Roonstain
29-07-2012, 01:11 PM
Out of interest, what battery did you replace the old one with? Just another simple thing to check...
Out of interest, what battery did you replace the old one with? Just another simple thing to check...
Not sure to be honest, I didnt check it, would have been a cheapy though, I was getting 14.3 volts at the fuses for the ignition coils with the engine running so I thought the battery and charging system was ok.
swingtan
29-07-2012, 03:25 PM
I just had a look at the the V6 fuse box. There's separate fuses for the odd and even banks. Try checking or replacing the lower 20A ( yellow ) fuse on the very left side of the fuse box in the engine bay ( when standing at the front of the car ).
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8285/7666515568_68182e76e3_o.jpg
The lower one is for the Even cylinders and may be blown. The upper one is for the ECM, so the theory is that if you just swapped them and one was blown / damaged, then the engine probably wouldn't start. The 20A fuse directly across those three relays, should be a spare so maybe just try swapping the lower fuse on the left with the spare on the right.
If that doesn't work, you may have blown the drivers in the ECM..... That'd be pretty bad.
Simon
Simon
Thanks Simon, those are the fuses I've checked. Its looking more like its an ECM, if thats the case at least there wont be lot of labour to replace it as they are easy to get to, its just the cost of a new computer and programming.
VTClubSprtR8
29-07-2012, 05:13 PM
.....The car is an 06 which had and issue with timing chain stretch, it has had a stretched chain for a while, thats apparently why it has a logged a "crankshaft to LH intake camshaft position" code,
Yep sounds like a timing chain problem not an ECM one. Reverse polarity of the terminals seems unlikely seeing as the car started and was ok after the battery swap out ailbeit the "ticking" noise. Have you checked the grounding point for 2-4-6 coils for those cylinders? It's attached to the side of the cylinder head below the coil harness runner. Run a line straight down from No. 6 coil attaching boltunderneath the harness runner down there is the earth point for this bank of coils. If this bolt is loose or the terminal has bad contact it will cause these symtoms, if it's tight and sound I would say you've got a slipped timing gear and it's going to be off with the front engine cover and the timing chains replaced.
.....his mechanic told him other than the engine light been on it probably wont do any damage but I think if the chain stretched far enough it may have skipped a tooth on the exhaust cam gear putting the exhaust cam out of time (the lower rated alloytecs only have variable intake cams, the exhaust one is fixed and therefore its position is not mointered by the ECU), that would explain the all the misfiring only on one bank of cylinders.
Sounds like you know more about this than his mechanic, Any possibility of the timing going out on these engines could result in bent valves, not saying that this has occoured but saying it wont do damage is a bit silly IMO.
abrowne70
29-07-2012, 05:40 PM
I suggest changing fuse 32, it does 2 things but i cant remember off the top of my head what they are(got a bulletin about it), but its easy to confirm its not that by just sticking a 20amp fuse in there like has been said.
Have you checked the grounding point for 2-4-6 coils for those cylinders? It's attached to the side of the cylinder head below the coil harness runner.
Found that one, it was tight, measured the resistance to ground for the coils and all were ok.
I suggest changing fuse 32, it does 2 things but i cant remember off the top of my head what they are(got a bulletin about it), but its easy to confirm its not that by just sticking a 20amp fuse in there like has been said.
I'll have him check that one, thanks.
brente1982
29-07-2012, 06:12 PM
While im not the most knowledgable when it comes to cars, just reading the problems from start to last post, its hard to imagine it being much more than a fuse or as suggest the timing belt/chain.
Is it a belt or a chain in the VE's???
Wonky
29-07-2012, 09:58 PM
Is it a belt or a chain in the VE's???
Chain. :yup:
brente1982
30-07-2012, 05:56 AM
Chain. :yup:
I see. I thought the idea of using a chain is that it wasnt meant to stretch like a belt and would therefore last a lot longer :S
I see. I thought the idea of using a chain is that it wasnt meant to stretch like a belt and would therefore last a lot longer :S
I believe initially the alloytecs had chains that were a bit noisy so GM updated the chains to lighter ones to to reduce the noise but the new chains werent strong enough and were stretching so they have since been updated again to stronger chains so they dont stretch.
Bit of an update, the car was towed to a Holden dealer and it turns out the issue was the timing chain on the passengers side bank, hence the misfire codes all on that side, it was just dumb luck that it failed the same time as we changed the battery.
steve_t
14-08-2012, 09:16 PM
Bit of an update, the car was towed to a Holden dealer and it turns out the issue was the timing chain on the passengers side bank, hence the misfire codes all on that side, it was just dumb luck that it failed the same time as we changed the battery.
Random. But glad you've got down to the bottom of the problem and it's getting sorted
Wonky
14-08-2012, 11:09 PM
Bit of an update, the car was towed to a Holden dealer and it turns out the issue was the timing chain on the passengers side bank, hence the misfire codes all on that side, it was just dumb luck that it failed the same time as we changed the battery.
Timing chain only affected one side of the engine??? :confused: Do they run one chain per side or something? :weirdo:
Woodchukka
14-08-2012, 11:21 PM
Timing chain only affected one side of the engine??? :confused: Do they run one chain per side or something? :weirdo:
Apparently so. Must be a weight off the shoulders.
http://www.justanswer.com/car/52fvi-timing-chain-diagram-2004-holden-vz.html
http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/vz-holden-commodore-2004-2006/182858-alloytec-without-timing-cover.html
macca_779
14-08-2012, 11:36 PM
Timing chain only affected one side of the engine??? :confused: Do they run one chain per side or something? :weirdo:
This should show you how GM excuted their masterpiece of an anchor Wonk. 1 chain wouldn't have been such a good idea. The way it is has turned out, is bad enough for reliability.
1432
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.