Windows 8 Tablets

[whiteknight2211]

I've just placed an order for a Dell Lattitude 10 Windows 8 Tablet.

Who else is buying a Windows 8 tablet?

[bozodos]

got an MS Surface on pre order for evaluation purposes at work, hopes are not set high lol.

[whiteknight2211]

got an MS Surface on pre order for evaluation purposes at work, hopes are not set high lol.

Yeah, I am not too sure on Windows RT myself at the moment.

The Dell runs full Windows 8, has an SD Card slot, USB port, 3G and a 3 year warranty for the same money I paid for my 'new' iPad.

If the battery life is 10 hours and I can have a spare battery (this one is actually interchangeable) life will be good.

I use Windows 8 on my Laptop already so I am getting used to the differences.

[team illucid]

Been running Windows 8 on a tablet for about 8 months now.

I actually don't see anything on the market yet that comes near the Samsung Slate.

Surface RT without handwriting recognition (i.e. no palm rejection) is a massive fail.

Surface PRO is probably the next device that will get my interest.

For me, no Atom, no ARM and no AMD. Sandy Bridge+ only :)

[bozodos]

we had Windows 8 since the developer preview on a Latitude XT, old hardware aside, it was a craptastic experience.

Most exciting tablet I've seen thus far has been the Galaxy Note 2 'phablet'.

[team illucid]

we had Windows 8 since the developer preview on a Latitude XT, old hardware aside, it was a craptastic experience..

Not surprised that sucked. You would have had zero driver support without trying really hard to hack some on.

Lenovo X220T was ordinary without hacked drivers - and the DP and CP version of Windows 8 were clunky compared to the RTM.

On a purpose designed slate with full Wacom pen, it is a pretty smooth experience.

[Stewge]

I'm running an ASUS EEE Slate (E121, 4GB ram, i5-470,64GB SSD) as a work demo (we can show clients what a full Windows8 tablet will look like before it's released). However, it's an older model tablet that shipped with Windows7 originally. Took a bit of stuffing around with drivers and such but it's now running dual-boot with Windows 8 Pro installed on the internal SSD and Ubuntu Linux on an SD card. This is using the RTM (Release to Manufacturer) edition, which is essentially the fully functional release edition except for possible bug fixes.

Beware when picking Windows 8 tablets, there are 2 types of Windows 8!

Windows 8 RT is for low power ARM processors. These are the same processors you see in iPads and Android tablets. The key distinction here, is they are NOT compatible with regular Windows applications you're used to. You'll be limited to Metro Apps which is essentially the same deal as the AppStore or Google Play Store. They really should've called this "Windows for tablets" or similar to avoid confusion. I get the feeling there will be a lot of people buying "Windows 8 tablets" under the impression they can run all their usual programs on it and I'll be having to deal with it (being in the IT industry).

Windows 8 (Home/Pro/Enterprise). These are the FULL x86 Windows editions with Desktop Mode (ie. I hate Metro mode :P) so you can run all of your usual desktop programs and full games. This is what I've been using and what people will get with a "Windows Slate Pro" or similar full fledged devices (e.g. Samsung series 7.

My experience (with the desktop version) has been that they've made significant strides in the backend while completely screwing up the front-end. Things like tossing out Aero Glass and fully hardware accelerating the GUI elements is brilliant. It is an undeniably fast system, even with slower hardware. The task manager is completely god damn awesome and the new copy dialogs are incredible (pausing! resume broken copies without restarting the whole thing! network speed graphs!).

Unfortunately, that's entirely where it ends. The constant switching between Metro and Desktop mode is a complete workflow breaker. Most applications (even MS Office 2013) still dump you back to the desktop mode. However, some programs like Chrome "can" run the Metro interface depending on where you open it, which is where the problems begin. Metro and "Desktop" have individual task/window managers. So while sitting in desktop mode, you can't see what metro apps are running and vice-versa.

The onscreen keyboard has issues, especially with the number/symbols mode. It doesn't follow the established standard of swapping out the top row with the number row, instead electing for a "symbols on the left, numpad on the right" approach which is horrible for people used to typing on other touch devices. There's no other reason other than "they could" to abandon the established standard for keyboards.

While I suspect Windows RT will greatly benefit from Metro, the desktop editions feels "unfinished". As far as I'm concerned the "perfect windows desktop" would be the Windows 8 with regular windows 7 style front-end. Hell, I'd even pay more money for it if it existed.

All that aside, I only have Windows as dual-boot for gaming on my desktop and laptop and use Linux full-time at work.

[team illucid]

@Stewge

How does Ubuntu go on the ASUS?

Office 2013 doesn't dump back to the desktop - it only works in the desktop, same as now. The keyboard was a given since it copies the keyboard developed for Windows Phone. Once you get used to it, it is fine, but is an adjustment.

The back and forth can be painful, but really, when I am using it on my laptop, I sit in desktop mode (typing this now) and for the whole work day don't move out of it. At night on the couch when I relax, with the tablet I stay in the Modern UI interface (the old Metro) and don't worry about the desktop mode.

When in desktop mode, you can split your screen to see the metro apps running - as an example I have a video running now on the side in metro, but am typing this on the desktop portion. The split screen function is excellent.

[bozodos]

Most of the Windows 7 drivers worked, it was more a case of it being fairly old hardware now that was the issue for the XT.


as stated by Stewge, if it had a Windows 7 front end, I'd be all over it like a rash. Don't like the whole MS App store idea either due to the amount of restrictions on it etc, when traditionally Windows has been the happy medium between OSX and Linux. Server 2012 is a LOT faster than 2008R2 as well, but why did they have to extend the silly UI to their server OS as well!

[VTSSDUDE]

got an MS Surface on pre order for evaluation purposes at work, hopes are not set high lol.

How do you find the surface? The presentation that Microsoft made it look real good. Be interesting to see how it is in reality.

[whiteknight2211]

Most of the Windows 7 drivers worked, it was more a case of it being fairly old hardware now that was the issue for the XT.


as stated by Stewge, if it had a Windows 7 front end, I'd be all over it like a rash. Don't like the whole MS App store idea either due to the amount of restrictions on it etc, when traditionally Windows has been the happy medium between OSX and Linux. Server 2012 is a LOT faster than 2008R2 as well, but why did they have to extend the silly UI to their server OS as well!

Does that tablet have a resistive touchscreen? Because I can imagine how frustrating that would be - it's bad enough in my Carputer with Windows 7 and a resistive touchscreen.

I think a choice to have either 'Metro style' or 'Windows 7' with the improvements would really go along way.

Remember though that you can still install your Windows 7 programs on Windows 8 provided it's not the RT edition. I like the snap function of the metro interface, it's quite handy and now that I have shutdown/restart shortcuts that's one less annoyance.

The broken links however are annoying and I'd like to hope they'd be fixed before too long.

I actually went to the Windows 7 released thread and it was funny to see some of the comments from a few years ago... here begins the rollercoaster again.

[team illucid]

Server 2012 is a LOT faster than 2008R2 as well, but why did they have to extend the silly UI to their server OS as well!
at least server 2012 boots straight to the desktop. I have hardly even looked at the modern UI interface in server.

But yes it is quick. I have mine set up as a NAS and media container, on a cruddy core i5.
Sent from my Windows 8 Tablet

[bozodos]

yeah resistive, single touch, I wasn't accounting that in my judgement since it's now a fairly archaic technology for touch screens!

I'm well aware of the ability to use my Windows 7 programs etc, it's more a case of intensely disliking metro, and the forced removal of the start button.

It's also going to be hard to migrate again from a corporate point of view - we've spent the last 2 years migrating from Server 2003, Server 2008, Windows XP, to Windows 7 32 bit (initially for compatibility reasons), and then x64 and Server 2008R2. I still know of quite a few places (usually bigger enterprises) who are STILL on XP.

IMO the server UI should have been left as it was - it's just meant to be usable, not pretty! Getting used to SCCM 2012 after finally taming 2007 was interesting as well lol.

[whiteknight2211]

yeah resistive, single touch, I wasn't accounting that in my judgement since it's now a fairly archaic technology for touch screens!

I'm well aware of the ability to use my Windows 7 programs etc, it's more a case of intensely disliking metro, and the forced removal of the start button.

It's also going to be hard to migrate again from a corporate point of view - we've spent the last 2 years migrating from Server 2003, Server 2008, Windows XP, to Windows 7 32 bit (initially for compatibility reasons), and then x64 and Server 2008R2. I still know of quite a few places (usually bigger enterprises) who are STILL on XP.

IMO the server UI should have been left as it was - it's just meant to be usable, not pretty! Getting used to SCCM 2012 after finally taming 2007 was interesting as well lol.

Metro on a server? That's a bit stupid.

Have you seen Samsung have a little dock on the bottom of the screen? Looks a bit like the Apple OSX bar thing... I am sure it's not as cool though..

[bozodos]

not the full metro, but its redesigned in that windows 8 'flavour'. Pity as it's really fast otherwise.

Haven't got the Surface yet, pre order lol. The latest awesome gadget in the office is the Samsung Galaxy Note 2. Seriously puts iOS and Win Phone to shame in terms of sheer functionality out of the box. Also the first Android phone I've seen that is totally fluid and responsive with the stock ROM on it (Galaxy S3 aside).

[duke5700]

Do you guys use them as serious work tools? I'm not sure I could ever move away from a real laptop.

I have a tablet, but its just a Motorola Xoom running Honeycomb (I think). I use it for basic stuff on the couch. It updates itself and I have never ever even had the urge to tinker with it at all.

[team illucid]

Do you guys use them as serious work tools? I'm not sure I could ever move away from a real laptop. all.
I use it day to day. Pentesting, coding, Photoshop, Office, Acrobat Pro.
Even for the odd game like Red Orchestra 2.

I took my wife's laptop away and gave her a win 8 slate about 5 months ago. She uses it daily as well as a teacher an it is a really neat tool for that. The iPad stays in the drawer.


Sent from my Windows 8 Tablet

[whiteknight2211]

I use it day to day. Pentesting, coding, Photoshop, Office, Acrobat Pro.
Even for the odd game like Red Orchestra 2.

I took my wife's laptop away and gave her a win 8 slate about 5 months ago. She uses it daily as well as a teacher an it is a really neat tool for that. The iPad stays in the drawer.


Sent from my Windows 8 Tablet

I was recently doing work on Power over Ethernet devices on a microwave link installation, to have a Windows Tablet and a USB/Ethernet adaptor would of saved me some serious screwing around. I also went on R&R from this job needing to download an email from my web server, edited it in word and send it back.

Any tablet can play games and watch movies (in fact nearly any phone can do that) but I can't use my iPad for work as easily as i'd like. I'm looking forward to seeing how a digitiser pen will integrate with AutoCAD too.

I see the potiental is there - lets see if it can be realised though.

[bozodos]

The only real business use I've seen for tablets thus far is from the directors / higher management who use them to review and give brief replies to email, reading minutes for meetings (vs printing them all the time) etc.

that said, our cabling/comms guy finds them extremely handy for conducting business on the go, so I guess it's dependent on what you're doing.

[Stewge]

yeah resistive, single touch, I wasn't accounting that in my judgement since it's now a fairly archaic technology for touch screens!

I'm well aware of the ability to use my Windows 7 programs etc, it's more a case of intensely disliking metro, and the forced removal of the start button.

It's also going to be hard to migrate again from a corporate point of view - we've spent the last 2 years migrating from Server 2003, Server 2008, Windows XP, to Windows 7 32 bit (initially for compatibility reasons), and then x64 and Server 2008R2. I still know of quite a few places (usually bigger enterprises) who are STILL on XP.

IMO the server UI should have been left as it was - it's just meant to be usable, not pretty! Getting used to SCCM 2012 after finally taming 2007 was interesting as well lol.

One thing I have found is that Server 2012 is NOT touch friendly. This is particularly worrying when MS are pushing the new features of RDS (such as RemoteFX and RemoteApp) to get people to shift processing off to servers. When you RDP in, the server isn't aware you're on a touch/slate device so you get only basic mouse passthrough (with Pen) and no on-screen keyboard. On top of that, once you can find the on-screen keyboard, it's only a reskinned version of the old Windows 7 one which needs to be manually repositioned and doesn't support hand-writing pass-through.

[Stewge]

Darn edit time limit. Was going to add these for the techys among us:

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200_1438&products_id=20522
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200_1438&products_id=20520

They're both "mini" wifi routers powered by USB or battery in the case of the second one. I'm thinking of getting the tiny $25 one and taping a USB rechargeable battery pack to it so it can hang off switches in work server racks without me having to stand there as well. This would be especially useful as it removes the dependency on having an ethernet port on your laptop/slate which is becoming increasingly rare in favour of smaller size and weight saving.

[bozodos]

One thing I have found is that Server 2012 is NOT touch friendly. This is particularly worrying when MS are pushing the new features of RDS (such as RemoteFX and RemoteApp) to get people to shift processing off to servers. When you RDP in, the server isn't aware you're on a touch/slate device so you get only basic mouse passthrough (with Pen) and no on-screen keyboard. On top of that, once you can find the on-screen keyboard, it's only a reskinned version of the old Windows 7 one which needs to be manually repositioned and doesn't support hand-writing pass-through.

Hadn't even thought of trying that yet!

[duke5700]

Interesting, couldn't even imagine pentesting with one.

I'll need to have a bit more of a play.


I use it day to day. Pentesting, coding, Photoshop, Office, Acrobat Pro.
Even for the odd game like Red Orchestra 2.

I took my wife's laptop away and gave her a win 8 slate about 5 months ago. She uses it daily as well as a teacher an it is a really neat tool for that. The iPad stays in the drawer.


Windows 8 Tablet

[team illucid]

Interesting, couldn't even imagine pentesting with one.

I'll need to have a bit more of a play.

That is the mindset that MS need to change .. just because it looks like an iPad, it is not an iPad. It is really a laptop that you do whatever you do now, but in a form factor you can move around easily with.

[Stewge]

Interesting, couldn't even imagine pentesting with one.

I'll need to have a bit more of a play.

I can't see any pen-testing tools being particularly touch-friendly. That being said, I made myself a fully encrypted bootable SD card with Backtrack5 on it which runs nicely with the "Orca" onscreen keyboard package.

[duke5700]

Yeah none of the govy issue cd/tools I can see being that friendly, but in saying that haven't tried it.


I can't see any pen-testing tools being particularly touch-friendly. That being said, I made myself a fully encrypted bootable SD card with Backtrack5 on it which runs nicely with the "Orca" onscreen keyboard package.

[team illucid]

Yeah none of the govy issue cd/tools I can see being that friendly, but in saying that haven't tried it.
what tools in particular?
Sent from my Windows 8 Tablet

[duke5700]

The disk that comes from Attorney General's office? Do you know the one I am talking about? Mostly the same as Backtrack really not that I use a lot of them. I use Wireshark mostly due to the nature of my work, mostly the control systems on the other end and how to structure packets for injection. Does it work ok on the tablet?



what tools in particular?
Sent from my Windows 8 Tablet

[team illucid]

The disk that comes from Attorney General's office? Do you know the one I am talking about? Mostly the same as Backtrack really not that I use a lot of them. I use Wireshark mostly due to the nature of my work, mostly the control systems on the other end and how to structure packets for injection. Does it work ok on the tablet?

I don't touch any of the script kiddie tools like BT or Pentoo et al .. too much risk. I do run a customised Ubuntu build in VMware and it works well enough.

Wireshark works fine .. as does Burp, Core Impact, Acunetix, WebInspect etc.

The beauty of the desktop experience is the use of the digitised pen - helps to get to places where fat fingers don't go.

* edit * There are some places that just don't allow any external devices into their environment - in those environments, you specify what you need (software, hardware) and all is provided when you rock up for work. Non-commercial pentesting tools are strictly forbidden (BT etc).

[duke5700]

Excellent, looks like I will be investing in one.

[team illucid]

Excellent, looks like I will be investing in one.

If you want to have a play with one that is setup, drop me a PM - I am working in ACT CBD and have it with me most of the time - happy to catch up over a coffee and let you get your hands dirty (ooer) :lol:

[Stewge]

I don't touch any of the script kiddie tools like BT or Pentoo et al .. too much risk. I do run a customised Ubuntu build in VMware and it works well enough.

Wireshark works fine .. as does Burp, Core Impact, Acunetix, WebInspect etc.

The beauty of the desktop experience is the use of the digitised pen - helps to get to places where fat fingers don't go.

* edit * There are some places that just don't allow any external devices into their environment - in those environments, you specify what you need (software, hardware) and all is provided when you rock up for work. Non-commercial pentesting tools are strictly forbidden (BT etc).

BT is just a collection of tools in a linux distro, hardly script kiddie tools given that a large majority of them are still CLI only. Not sure what you mean by risk, unless you mean the risk of not knowing exactly what is in the code (even if it's open source, it's a lot of code to check) which is understandable in a corporate environment. But at the same time, I'd trust free software developers a hell of a lot more that commercial locked-down software packages when it comes to security and pen-testing.