Hole in Air Conditioner Line

[PJ Monaro]

Hi Guys, I have a LS1 engine. My blinkers stopped working and the Air Con wasn't working so I took it to a Auto Electic's bloke. Said he had to take the dash out and make repairs to the Hazard switch. Then he said he had to install a new high pressure switch, re-gassed it the Air Con, place a dye in the Air Con (thought great be able to it if I have a leak. He said only if you have special black light. Well I cary one of those all the time..). 3 hours labour $632. Thats what I said. Picked the car up, everything working great. Next day no Air Con. Took it back to him after the weekend. He showed me and stated that the Air Con line had leaked all the gas out near the top of the radiator. I said shouldn't that of bee picked upwhen you re-gassed it and what about the $30 for the Dye. He said well yes. He said I will get a quote for a new line, $303 you have to replace the whole line you can't replace part of it. I said what about a second hand one or getting it repaired and he said second hand ones are no good and you would have to find a special person to repair this line.
Guys can I have this repaired. The hole is on the silver pipe as it comes up from the ground to go over the radiator. Can I install a second hand one. Thanks for any info you can advise me of.
PJ

[one_and_only04]

I only just replaced my AC line on the VZ this weekend. Any welder capable of welding aluminium could fix it for you, I soldered mine up myself a while back but then it developed a leak somewhere else.

The AC pipe is one piece (as you were told) and it cost me $262 all up. Took me about 2 hours to change (I had to take my turbo manifold off) but would probably take an hour on an NA machine.

[PJ Monaro]

I'm not a welder but thats what I thought that are plenty of people who could weld it. I just came across a Atp Line Splicer Kit from usa. I am wondering whethering that would work as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9yj5UJSm4
Thanks for your info.

[vt748]

Said he had to take the dash out and make repairs to the Hazard switch.

The alarm bells would have been ringing right there!

I fail to see how he could have pulled a vacuum before he regassed the system and then it failed within 1 day. A couple of weeks fair enough, 1 day is a major leak.

He is having you on imho. Take it somewhere else.

[nate698]

The alarm bells would have been ringing right there!

I fail to see how he could have pulled a vacuum before he regassed the system and then it failed within 1 day. A couple of weeks fair enough, 1 day is a major leak.

He is having you on imho. Take it somewhere else.

I agree .. Another auto elec or mechanic not knowing the refrigeration rules .
"top up with gas he said, it will be fine he said"
Huge fines exist for putting gas in a system knowing it has a leak . And a leak that big would never pull the required by law 500microns vacuum .and if he put a die in and didn't find a leak so big so close to the service valves he shouldn't have a ticket !!

[nate698]

On another note it would probably cost about $1 in nitrogen to pump up the system and pressure test . Always a Better option than die . I never use die . Find leak repair, pressure test again, evacuate and regas . Although r134a has gone up with the new bullshit going on it would be minimal for a full system compared to topping it up

[JezzaB]

As mentioned it should have been vacced down and if it didn't hold then pressure tested with nitrogen and the leak fixed and then vacced again. Putting in R134a willy hilly is very very naughty

[JRS]

Got a pic of the whole? What model commodore? The line that your talking about is one peice and goes from the condensor across under the radiator to the compressor then back under the radiator again up to the firewall. It is a fidly thing to replace as it threads through the vehilce under hoses etc.

Should've been pressure tested first before being regassed as others have said, Ive heard alot of eastern states people only vac test, wich does find leaks the system never runs in vacuum. Sometimes operating temps can come into play, things mite not leak when tested at ambient temps but when up and running may start to leak.

[VX-SS-383]

The alloy line can be welded i just had mine done as it had a small pin hole
from welding the exhaust -headers to cat.
Took the hoses out had them repaired and i put them back in.
Then had them put new o rings and seals in and test it then gas it.
So far so good.So can be done.
New line would be quite expensive if you can get one.

[Big_Valven]

Amazing this pops up when it did, one of my power steering line flanges wore through my TX line shortly after buying the SV8. I removed the pipe yesterday and had the it cleaned up and TIG welded. Only a ~5mm fillet was needed. About 1 hour to remove the pipes and half an hour to re-fit, with no experience. The workshop I was at luckily contained a welder experienced in hydraulic manifolds and preparing alloy race boats, so was easy ;)

Remove:
Radiator shroud
Front plastic underside diffuser
Sump guard tray
Second plastic underside diffuser
passenger side turtle shell cover

Un-fasten
Coolant header tank (VY,) swing over onto inlet manifold
ECU, flip up onto strut tower
A/C line clamp, under middle of radiator
A/C lines, compressor (one nut. Wrap pipe ends in a rag and plug compressor with rags to preserve seals and surfaces)
TX line, firewall, behind passenger strut tower (one bolt)
Condensor line, passenger side top of condensor (one bolt, hose clip and sensor plug)

Pull out (in order)
Compressor end of lines, out under radiator
Condensor pipe, through next to chassis rail and radiator bottom hose
TX hose, same way, some twisting and maneuvering needed, I was surprised it all came out easily enough though without pulling more parts out. You'll need tall jack stands, a hoist or pit to get maneuvering space though.

Fix leak
I used pig's tail wrap on the big TX line where it rubs on the chassis rail under the ECU, and down near the chassis rail. I also ensured lines were tied / out of the way to prevent future issues.

Re-installation is the exact reverse - I ensured all seals, mating surfaces and fasteners were clinically clean before I bolted stuff down.

Just have to put a new receiver drier in and get it vacced then gassed.
The only question I was left with; will it be acceptable to have used the old seals again? All were in good order, no nicks, dirt, or issues. Very clean when it went back together. I can fit new seals if absolutely needed before it's gassed, if it's going to save me a repeat gas...

Amazing how much misinformation there is around air con systems. The yard I bought the car from said "it probably just needs a re gas, we can do it for $xx," They didn't seem to understand a system doesn't lose gas unless it's faulty "oh they would find any issues when you get your yearly re-gas" say what?

[Big_Valven]

Here are some pics from the process.

After removal.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HpT3Sy9h4NE/UJiQISvibkI/AAAAAAAAEUU/RIG69JytfQ4/s1024/IMG_7294.JPG

Here's the hose which was rubbing. The A/C pipes have already been removed.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vMEBHVGvrTE/UJiQJU5hpoI/AAAAAAAAEUc/AUMM0TGA2wU/s1024/IMG_7298.JPG

Hoses. Top left of the pic is the compressor end, then the under-radiator run, on the right is the condensor and firewall end.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KsBAW0a7wlI/UJiQHBphwLI/AAAAAAAAEUM/gtZnC7gqabk/s1024/IMG_7292.JPG

Hole

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KodddCm_gcE/UJiQFy2TMfI/AAAAAAAAEUE/u2pBQDIcTMo/s1024/IMG_7291.JPG

Weld

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6hEhkvRG2zc/UJiQKh9SbxI/AAAAAAAAEUk/nX--dfCOSGY/s1024/IMG_7301.JPG

=D

[PJ Monaro]

Thanks guys for all your info in this matter. I told the bloke that my air con was only re-gassed just over 2 years ago and I hardly use it. Yes I agree the bloke should of checked all the info I gave him. His name is Jack and I have recently found out people call him Dear Jack. While I was there the second time for him to see why it failed the second day, there was a old man there getting his car serviced, oil change extra. I lictened to what was done to his car and nothing out of the ordinary. Because I do mine I might have lost touch of prices but he was charged $339 for a service, to me thats a little overboard.
The other issue I did not like is when you get there, they take your car arund the back so you don't get to keep an eye on it and see what is going on. the place was so dirty I took a photo to show my wife how dirty the floor was. I went to the loo and it was so bad it mad Bathurst loo's look crystal.
He did state that he would re-gass it for free and so he should. I just have to remove the hose to get it fixed now. Thanks again guys for your input.

[axemurderer101]

what caused the hole? something must of been rubbing on it.
did a similar thing on my mates old ford ba v8 ute, powersteering line was rubbing on the aircon line which made a small hole. had it welded up as a cheap fix which worked fine. then a while later we had another ford ba with the exact same problem, only this time we just a new pipe on.

[VX-SS-383]

Sounds dodgy hey,i go somewhere else.
Place i went to did it all in front of me.
If you take the lines out you must replace the seals,in particular the compressor hose seals.

[HSV590]

With the price of R134a presently, I've noticed quite a few A/C threads popping up, I guess due to the costs of repairs. It would seem some A/C guys might be cashing in on it. Always be wary of anyone offering to "re-gas" your car, if it's out of gas, there's a reason why, simple as that..
The only thing that has changed with A/C repairs is the gas price itself, parts and labour haven't changed. Most passengers cars take about on average 800ishgms of gas, give or take a bit, so it pays to be vigilant as to what prices are being quoted, that said, R134a has tripled in price since Julia imposed a carbon tax, so even that small amount of gas is quite costly..

[VX-SS-383]

Price has jumped up,used to be $110 its now $165 but some places
charge in excess of $200.
They said it was due to carbon tax.

[HSV590]

Price has jumped up,used to be $110 its now $165 but some places
charge in excess of $200.
They said it was due to carbon tax.

It's absolutely due to the carbon tax. The A/C guys don't pay it. It's paid by the importers/distributors, but is then added into the price of the gas and passed on down the distribution line and ultimately, the end consumer pays through the nose for the stuff...

[boggers007]

At work we ordered some big chillers for a job I believe they are in excess of 900kW and well If I remember right the quote that was had before the carbon tax was something like 50-60grand less then what was paid due to the change in refrigerant in the chiller and nothing else.

[Hi Octane]

r134a bought april 2012=$355
r134a bought October 2012= $1452.

Same size/brand eveerything.

[one_and_only04]

r134a bought april 2012=$355
r134a bought October 2012= $1452.

Same size/brand eveerything.

Someone's having you on - I got a 12kg bottle on Tuesday for $850

[JRS]

No, thats the price for a 22kg bottle of R134a.

[Hi Octane]

^^ yep 22kg bottle didnt want to post sizes here because then people know what it cost to gas a system. Ah well too late.

[HSV590]

Someone's having you on - I got a 12kg bottle on Tuesday for $850

Yes, you're talking trade price..oops, now everyone knows...

[planetdavo]

It's perhaps worth pointing out that "re-gas" is a service term that can be easily price quoted. Any issues subsequently found will be at additional cost.
It's really no different to quoting on (for example) a minor service, with any additional work required coming at extra cost.
It's up to the workshop people to explain the theory behind why a/c systems lose gas- hence the potential for additional charges. If there's one thing I've found over many years though- it's that customers LOVE to hear a price in advance (and hope for the best (ie: cheapest) outcome. ;))

[white lie]

So why is it that AC systems lose their ability to cool over time? Serious question by the way!

Is it because they develop a leak somewhere, naturally leak over the years or does the gas eventually 'go off'?

[LSavvy]

So why is it that AC systems lose their ability to cool over time? Serious question by the way!

Is it because they develop a leak somewhere, naturally leak over the years or does the gas eventually 'go off'?

Pretty much all the above!

Some guys will tell you it must have a leak if it has lost gas which is BS (I'm not talking over a year or two here, probably 4-6+yrs), it is normal to loose gas over time. A system that doesn't last a year or two will most definitely have a leak but it may not show up on a vacuum test and most probably not on a pressure test, which is why adding dye is useful for those leaks that happen over a period of time.

Tyres need "topping up" every now and again but they dont have identifiable leaks.

IMO if a system needed a top up of 100 or so grams over a few to several years it won't generally have a leak.

I have seen jap systems run 5-10 yrs without a service and work better than many of the local systems.

[HSV590]

Pretty much all the above!

Some guys will tell you it must have a leak if it has lost gas which is BS (I'm not talking over a year or two here, probably 4-6+yrs), it is normal to loose gas over time. A system that doesn't last a year or two will most definitely have a leak but it may not show up on a vacuum test and most probably not on a pressure test, which is why adding dye is useful for those leaks that happen over a period of time.

Tyres need "topping up" every now and again but they dont have identifiable leaks.

IMO if a system needed a top up of 100 or so grams over a few to several years it won't generally have a leak.

I have seen jap systems run 5-10 yrs without a service and work better than many of the local systems.

Whilst what you say is essentially true, it could be argued that a system thats 4-6 yrs old thats lost some gas, perhaps has old and "weepy" hoses, admittedly due their age, but that does in fact constitute a leak..

[JRS]

^^ yep 22kg bottle didnt want to post sizes here because then people know what it cost to gas a system. Ah well too late.

Meh, its not just the gas that is involved in doing a, and i use the term very loosly regas. Youve got your time to actualy do the recharge and pressure test, soap the system,sometimes pull the glove box out to check the evap, nitrogen use even getting up on the hoist to check underneath, in vans sometimes even need to pull the inner trim to check joins etc. I realy could go on in what involved, people need to relaise it's not just smashing some gas in if your doing the job properly.

In regards to the OP, its also must take into account of what the workshop is able to do and that will vary from shop to shop. Some can and will weld up a rub through, some dont have the facilites to do it so may suggest changing the hose assy.

[LSavvy]

Whilst what you say is essentially true, it could be argued that a system thats 4-6 yrs old thats lost some gas, perhaps has old and "weepy" hoses, admittedly due their age, but that does in fact constitute a leak..

So are you saying to change all the hoses in this example and keep doing this every 4-6yrs because it lost 100gms of gas. Do we change our tyres every 3-4 months when we top them up.

[HSV590]

So are you saying to change all the hoses in this example and keep doing this every 4-6yrs because it lost 100gms of gas. Do we change our tyres every 3-4 months when we top them up.

I think we're both getting picky, my point is, the system lost "some" gas as the old hoses were weepy and leaking, hence a "leak". Whether the hoses get changed or not wasn't my point. If a system has lost A/C gas, it has a leak, even if that reason is aged hoses over many years.. How often do you have your fridge in the kitchen re-gassed?? Never I would suggest, unless it had a leak!!

[LSavvy]

I think we're both getting picky, my point is, the system lost "some" gas as the old hoses were weepy and leaking, hence a "leak". Whether the hoses get changed or not wasn't my point. If a system has lost A/C gas, it has a leak, even if that reason is aged hoses over many years.. How often do you have your fridge in the kitchen re-gassed?? Never I would suggest, unless it had a leak!!

Not being picky, more of a discussion.

Home fridges use more copper components and is generally less porus than rubber hose or aluminium pipes, they also don't operate under the harsh conditions that auto A/C do like higher ambient temps, vibration etc. I'm thinking the kitchen fridge doesn't work at the high pressures seen in auto system (i think).

Again the tyre that needs the top up, does it have a leak? Technically yes but no.

[HSV590]

Not being picky, more of a discussion.

Home fridges use more copper components and is generally less porus than rubber hose or aluminium pipes, they also don't operate under the harsh conditions that auto A/C do like higher ambient temps, vibration etc. I'm thinking the kitchen fridge doesn't work at the high pressures seen in auto system (i think).

Again the tyre that needs the top up, does it have a leak? Technically yes but no.

Kinda one of those "how long's a piece of string" questions really. We could go back and forth with many scenarios, I wasn't arguing your theory, I guess I was getting too "specific" with my take on it..
Cheers

[nate698]

Not being picky, more of a discussion.

Home fridges use more copper components and is generally less porus than rubber hose or aluminium pipes, they also don't operate under the harsh conditions that auto A/C do like higher ambient temps, vibration etc. I'm thinking the kitchen fridge doesn't work at the high pressures seen in auto system (i think).

Again the tyre that needs the top up, does it have a leak? Technically yes but no.

R134a has a low operating pressure that's why it is used in a lot of supermarket systems as its more efficient . More often than not most domestics now will be r134a or bang gas . Older will be r22 .

In regards to you leaking hoses .. The flexible lines on cars as you have pointed out are exposed to more stress . If a tyre leaks fine top it up when required, air isn't an ozone depleting gas nor does it have global warming potiential . If your ac system in your car leaks because of anything the part and leak must be fixed before the unit is vaced and gassed . It is illegal and big fines exist for topping up ac system when a leak is know . The leak must be fixed before regas

Ac system on a car is so small if you can't find the leak pressure testing then feck .

[LSavvy]

R134a has a low operating pressure that's why it is used in a lot of supermarket systems as its more efficient . More often than not most domestics now will be r134a or bang gas . Older will be r22 .

In regards to you leaking hoses .. The flexible lines on cars as you have pointed out are exposed to more stress . If a tyre leaks fine top it up when required, air isn't an ozone depleting gas nor does it have global warming potiential . If your ac system in your car leaks because of anything the part and leak must be fixed before the unit is vaced and gassed . It is illegal and big fines exist for topping up ac system when a leak is know . The leak must be fixed before regas

Ac system on a car is so small if you can't find the leak pressure testing then feck .


Mate my point was that a system will loose some gas although there may be no leak. The example of the tyre wasn't to compare air and refrigerant gases but to explain you don't necessarily have a leak if you loose some gas over several years. A leaking oring, crimp joint, compressor, condenser, evaporator etc I agree needs fixing.

When I say top up I am meaning a system that is low on refrigerant by about 10 - 20% not actually "topping up" the system without recovery.

[nate698]

Mate my point was that a system will loose some gas although there may be no leak. The example of the tyre wasn't to compare air and refrigerant gases but to explain you don't necessarily have a leak if you loose some gas over several years. A leaking oring, crimp joint, compressor, condenser, evaporator etc I agree needs fixing.

When I say top up I am meaning a system that is low on refrigerant by about 10 - 20% not actually "topping up" the system without recovery.

Your talking out your arse

Refrigeration systems are a sealed system . If you lose refrigerant you have a leak ... If the system is short by 10-20% it is still illegal to "top up" with refrigerant . And you still have a leak no matter how small . And if you know what your doing you will find it .

Car ac are a shit set up in a worse situation . Rubber hoses should never be used in refrigeration imo as they are obviously porus and deteriorate over time . But still they are a necessary evil on transport refrigeration

[LSavvy]

Your talking out your arse

Refrigeration systems are a sealed system . If you lose refrigerant you have a leak ... If the system is short by 10-20% it is still illegal to "top up" with refrigerant . And you still have a leak no matter how small . And if you know what your doing you will find it .

Car ac are a shit set up in a worse situation . Rubber hoses should never be used in refrigeration imo as they are obviously porus and deteriorate over time . But still they are a necessary evil on transport refrigeration


Haha, I'm talking out of my arse hey. Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the terminology of "natural leakage" when you get out of your perfect world.

When did I condone topping up a system, perhaps re read what I said, by topping up I was referring to a system that was low on a small amount of gas not necessarily the act of "topping up".

You just posted that rubber hoses are porous which was my whole point here so are we both talking out of our arses now or agreeing that auto ac will loose some refigerant over time?

[nate698]

Haha, I'm talking out of my arse hey. Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the terminology of "natural leakage" when you get out of your perfect world.

When did I condone topping up a system, perhaps re read what I said, by topping up I was referring to a system that was low on a small amount of gas not necessarily the act of "topping up".

You just posted that rubber hoses are porous which was my whole point here so are we both talking out of our arses now or agreeing that auto ac will loose some refigerant over time?

Sorry il stop having a dig and take this back to a discussion

I believe rubber hoses become porus yes . Which as you said I would say is a natural cause of refrigerant leak over time . But I read your post to say that if this was to happen then it's ok to top it up because it's only a really slow leak ?

If that's not what you meant then this is a pointless argument.

I would consider most refrigeration leaks as natural ... Pipes rubbing though from vibration creating a leak .. Natural .. Rubber control lines deteriorating from being exposed to to high temps or extreme conditions . Natural . Leaking o-rings - leaking shaft seals - all of these i would consider to be natural as its a break down in materials over time or a lack of proper maintenance. But these "natural leaks" cannot just be overlooked they must be repaired .

I know replace all deteriorated rubber hosed with plastic pressure control lines suited for r410a . I can't see why the automotive industry can't come up with a better solution to using rubber hoses . Plastic control lines have worked perfectly even on high pressures . To make these lines in refrigerant sizes suited to a car would be easy and simply add a loop to allow for twists vibrations stretches etc .

Again if we are agreeing on this let's just leave it there Ey , if not I'm happy to hear you out .

[Micks]

Looking through the thread is very common in our Holden's for these pipes to rub & cause leaks. Don't know how many
times have installed extra insulators & ties etc to overcome these issues!

[Big_Valven]

2002 VX Commodore = 8 years, no re-gas, perfect a/c
2003 Mazda 6 = 9 years, no re-gas, perfect a/c.

I think some people need to cool down (epic pun intended.) Haven't we learnt about arguing on the internet?

[JRS]

You do know that r134a hose is different to the old r12 hose? R134a stuff uses barrier hose which has a nylon liner down the inside due to the fact that 134 molacules are smaller than r12 so more chance of getting through porus rubber hose.

You are better of using your a/c all year round to keep orings and shaft seals lube to provent leaks. Although the delphi compressors used on commodores just love to leak.