Commodore dead by end of 2016?

[Jag530G]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/end-of-the-road-for-ford-falcon-and-holden-commodore-in-2016/story-fncvk70o-1226554833139

Bit earlier than what I thought. An interesting tidbit is that Holden would still have space in the factory to build the Caprice and Ute along side the Cruze and the "second model". Sounds like the VF ute would be like the XF Falcon ute, goes on for years and with no direct competition, why not? Same for the Caprice, since there is nothing in our market that directly competes with a Caprice, this side of a $200K+ S Class, 7 Series, XJ, it could go on for years with updated engines etc.

Lets hope the Chevy SS Performance is successful and GM chooses to build a new model in the US and at least export it here.

Another interesting article I read the other day is that Cadillac might be on its way here after the stillborn attempt in 2009. Got some great cars, the new ATS (3 series competitor), the new model CTS coming out soon (5 series competitor) and the SRX SUV would probably be the line up, maybe the XTS large car but it is V6 only, so I have my doubts about that. The new ELV Coupe (Caddy version of the Volt) would sell little but would be a hell of a talking point, striking looking car.

Cheers, Matthew

[jboy21]

An interesting tidbit is that Holden would still have space in the factory to build the Caprice and Ute along side the Cruze and the "second model". Sounds like the VF ute would be like the XF Falcon ute, goes on for years and with no direct competition, why not?

Because they have this thing called a colorado that they are trying to pump up everyones ass.

[macca_779]

Loosing Commdore and gaining CTS. Sounds good to me.

[Plenty]

Written by Joshua Dowling! Need i say more? This knob jockey has had a problem with the Australian car industry for years, especially the Falcon. I would only take what he says with a grain of salt...

I doubt Holden would invest so much into the VF to only sell it for 3 years, the VE has been around since 2006 remember!

The GM managers also said that the Corvette was coming here in RHD, yet the person in charge of the program said it was bollocks, sooooo

[CLUBRED]

VT was effectively around for 10 years. VE2 should have been VF just for marketing.

[macca_779]

Written by Joshua Dowling! Need i say more? This knob jockey has had a problem with the Australian car industry for years, especially the Falcon. I would only take what he says with a grain of salt...

I doubt Holden would invest so much into the VF to only sell it for 3 years, the VE has been around since 2006 remember!

The GM managers also said that the Corvette was coming here in RHD, yet the person in charge of the program said it was bollocks, sooooo

What makes you think the VF is a new platform. Think VX to VY. 10 years is the life cycle of a commodore traditionally. That puts it up to 2016 funnily enough.

Trust me, the car is dead. I've heard it from to many people in the know now to believe otherwise.

[VYSHSV8]

Loosing Commdore and gaining CTS. Sounds good to me.

Mmm I like and want one, but unless it comes I will be buying a Euro as my next v8

And to think why has the v8's brought the other variants in, maybe because they know the ford and Holden variants are dead after 2016 so it keeps the sport alive.....

[steve_t]

I'll be happy with whatever so long as it has a supercharged LT1 ;)

[Jag530G]

Because they have this thing called a colorado that they are trying to pump up everyones ass.

Well there is currently room in the market for the Commodore Ute and Colorado at the moment, they target two different markets. The Commodroe ute sales are biased in favour of V8s and once the Falcon goes it will have the V8 sport ute market entirely to itself. By 2016 the tooling and R&D for the VE/VF ute would be long since paid for, it would cost Holden only materials to make VF utes past this point. GM Powertain would keep up the supply of emission compliant engines over time and as Ford showed with the post 1988 XF/XG/XH, people still bought them even though the car dated back to the 1979 XD.

To Macca, I must admit I would have thought the VF sedan could have stretched out to 2018, I agree with you if we get ATS and CTS for equiv BMW prices it won't be so bad.

Cheers, Matthew

[Plenty]

What makes you think the VF is a new platform. Think VX to VY. 10 years is the life cycle of a commodore traditionally. That puts it up to 2016 funnily enough.

Trust me, the car is dead. I've heard it from to many people in the know now to believe otherwise.

I wasn't saying it wasn't dead, but 2016 is bollocks..... You can't compare the VT era to the VE/VF i the VF is not a new platform i never said that.

The VF will be released with the old Gen IV engine family and like the VE will be a continual line of improvements instead of a quick model cycle ala VT-VZ! Which will increase longevity.

Dowling is an idiot, always has been..... Every other journalist is saying 2020 some even stretching to 2024 all worked from quotes off of GM insiders, the new lifespan for a Commodore model will be 6-7years.

Believe what you want but investing so much coin to sell it for 3 years is just dumb and will not happen. Don't forget the VF is also being sold as the Chevy in the U.S. who generally see longer lifespans of cars.

[Jag530G]

Actually, I'm forgetting what Holden did in 1980, the Kingswood sedan and wagon stopped production and were replaced (earlier) by the smaller Commodore but Holden kept the LWB DeVille and Caprice and the ute, pano and one tonner in prodution with a mild up date. Got an extra 4 years out of the HQ platform. Perhaps this will be a guide as to what will happen in 2016.

HSV's future looks rather grim really and as for V8 Supercars, I can't see too many people watching a shilouette series of Mercedes vs Nissan, not enough to justify big budget racing teams, TV rights and sponsership deals.

Cheers, Matthew

[macca_779]

I wasn't saying it wasn't dead, but 2016 is bollocks..... You can't compare the VT era to the VE/VF i the VF is not a new platform i never said that.

The VF will be released with the old Gen IV engine family and like the VE will be a continual line of improvements instead of a quick model cycle ala VT-VZ! Which will increase longevity.

Dowling is an idiot, always has been..... Every other journalist is saying 2020 some even stretching to 2024 all worked from quotes off of GM insiders, the new lifespan for a Commodore model will be 6-7years.

Believe what you want but investing so much coin to sell it for 3 years is just dumb and will not happen. Don't forget the VF is also being sold as the Chevy in the U.S. who generally see longer lifespans of cars.

So you know how much they are investing then?

Believe what you want mate.. I think you'll be in for a surprise though.

[VYBerlinaV8]

I suspect Holden will redo a lot of its analysis over the next 3-4 years on light of what Ford do. The VF will last to 2016-ish, but whether they go for another full platform after that is debatable. The issue will be product planning, and working out what to replace the VF with. I wouldn't be surprised if the VF ute continued for a while.

At the end of the day, new car buyers are seeking a range of characteristics for their new vehicles. Advertising has been extremely successful in convincing people that 4WD is something they need (hence all the soft-roaders and SUVs), and is now telling people that low fuel consumption is important. People will buy what advertising tells them to buy, and they will love it.

[Plenty]

So you know how much they are investing then?

Believe what you want mate.. I think you'll be in for a surprise though.


hmmm whilst i don't know the figure at all going by previous face lifts i imagine there will not be much change from $300-400 million.

All new outer skins aside from the roof, all new interior panels and media interface, technology like GM’s Forward Collision Warning System, keyless remote start, electric power assist steering, electric bush button park brake and use of aluminium panels and tooling it's not hard to work out that it's a substantial investment, not to mention the new V8's development for later on as well.

2018 is more likely the reality.

[CLUBRED]

How much or does GM have any investment HSV? Could they build the "Commodore" themselves just as sports models?

I suspect the new SUV could be the Rodeo joint venture reincarnated.

[bonners]

Actually, I'm forgetting what Holden did in 1980, the Kingswood sedan and wagon stopped production and were replaced (earlier) by the smaller Commodore but Holden kept the LWB DeVille and Caprice and the ute, pano and one tonner in prodution with a mild up date. Got an extra 4 years out of the HQ platform. Perhaps this will be a guide as to what will happen in 2016.

HSV's future looks rather grim really and as for V8 Supercars, I can't see too many people watching a shilouette series of Mercedes vs Nissan, not enough to justify big budget racing teams, TV rights and sponsership deals.

Cheers, Matthew

Im not quite sure why HSV's future looks grim. Its not Commodore Special Vehicles after all..... As long as their is Holden im pretty sure HSV will stick around. Its just the cars will be different. Look at the Insignia VXR for example. That would have been a prime HSV vehicle had opel not come to Australia themselves....

[Smitty]

Actually, I'm forgetting what Holden did in 1980, the Kingswood sedan and wagon stopped production and were replaced (earlier) by the smaller Commodore but Holden kept the LWB DeVille and Caprice and the ute, pano and one tonner in prodution with a mild up date. Got an extra 4 years out of the HQ platform. Perhaps this will be a guide as to what will happen in 2016..........

as one who was working at GMH at the time...and had input into those decisions then , this situation with VE/VF and its life cycle (and a possible end date)
bears no comparison to 30+ years ago...

my 2c


cheers

[Marco]

Im not quite sure why HSV's future looks grim. Its not Commodore Special Vehicles after all..... As long as their is Holden im pretty sure HSV will stick around. Its just the cars will be different. Look at the Insignia VXR for example. That would have been a prime HSV vehicle had opel not come to Australia themselves....

...but every time HSV has tried something other than a V8 Commodore, the buyers weren't interested. Maybe it will be different if there is no Commodore to start with, but if I were HSV I would be having a long think about my business model right now. Perhaps there's an opportunity for HSV to cater for its customers by doing a nice line of Camaro and Corvette RHD conversions?

On the idea of the ute living forever, while I'd love to see it, isn't that going to give Holden serious production headaches by having three unrelated cars being built on the same lines? I suppose they could just run a batch of utes every few months or whatever but it seems like a long shot.

[Ausmartin1]

http://www.news.com.au/news/holden-ford-end-of-the-road/story-fnejlrpu-1226555305476

Well either get ready to purchase your last V8 powered Commodore, after who know looking at this article ...

Maybe pester for a Camaro / Corvette Stingray.

Can't believe they let the Nissans in to V8's to sell V6's, it's all getting a little strange don't you think?

[Angeldust]

well, at least the value of my v8 commodore just went UP!

[Plenty]

http://www.news.com.au/news/holden-ford-end-of-the-road/story-fnejlrpu-1226555305476

Well either get ready to purchase your last V8 powered Commodore, after who know looking at this article ...

Maybe pester for a Camaro / Corvette Stingray.

Can't believe they let the Nissans in to V8's to sell V6's, it's all getting a little strange don't you think?

Written by the same dropkick! Joshua Dowling....... He may as well be on the net burning an Aussie flag because he's always slagging of our industry.

[bouka]

Dead? Not looking good!

2016? A little early!

[C4B]

Im not quite sure why HSV's future looks grim. Its not Commodore Special Vehicles after all..... As long as their is Holden im pretty sure HSV will stick around. Its just the cars will be different. Look at the Insignia VXR for example. That would have been a prime HSV vehicle had opel not come to Australia themselves....

Whilst HSV does indeed stand for Holden special vehicles their track record with other models in the range has been ineffectual.

Clearly they will not go out of business overnight, but unless they can find another niche market in a motoring world that doesn't seem to be too concerned about outright performance in the way it was 10 years ago, they are going to struggle.

[Jag530G]

Im not quite sure why HSV's future looks grim. Its not Commodore Special Vehicles after all..... As long as their is Holden im pretty sure HSV will stick around. Its just the cars will be different. Look at the Insignia VXR for example. That would have been a prime HSV vehicle had opel not come to Australia themselves....

HSV haven't even bothered with an HSV version of the Cruze, and its been on the market for 4 years now. HSV don't seem to be acting like they have much of a plan post Commodore. Look at FPV, Prodrive have sold out and FPV have been bought in house by Ford. Basically FPV will just be a sub brand within Ford. I wonder if we see this happen with HSV, BTW what is the ownership structure of HSV nowadays? I know Holden don't own a majority, who has the rest?

[AVENGE]

Highly doubt commodore would die. esp with the amount of exporting they're starting to do with it. America's cheering that they're getting it back over there.

[bonners]

HSV dont 'have'to focus on other models at present because all effort is on the commodore base. To compare HSV of 2013 of that of the days of the HSV Jackaroo and Astra 1800 is simply laughable. Twenty plus years of a successful business model would prove this.

The VXR Astra is and was a good step for HSV. Problem is the donor car in Europe is highly priced which means by the time it arrives here and HSV add some numbers on it, the car simply wasnt worth the money it was sold for. Same as the Focus RS.

Mid size and slightly bigger (thus slightly smaller than commodore) are the true next niche vehicles and I think in the years coming before commodore 'dies' true HSV vehicles to take the mantle will apear.

[Party Pete]

Unfortunately I'll be guessing that if the Commodore goes, we are looking at a mid sized front wheel drive with 4 and 6 cylinder options only. I can't see them bothering to comply V8 versions of the Cadillacs with our likely sales numbers either. If they do, i will necessarily be $100,000+ so not exactly replacing the Commodore V8s. Let's hope for those that love affordable V8s in this country that the plan for the Commodore is longer than 2016 and the VF is an excellent vehicle which sells very well hear and overseas.

[BOSSVY]

Unfortunately I'll be guessing that if the Commodore goes, we are looking at a mid sized front wheel drive with 4 and 6 cylinder options only. I can't see them bothering to comply V8 versions of the Cadillacs with our likely sales numbers either. If they do, i will necessarily be $100,000+ so not exactly replacing the Commodore V8s. Let's hope for those that love affordable V8s in this country that the plan for the Commodore is longer than 2016 and the VF is an excellent vehicle which sells very well hear and overseas.

i just finished reading this article on the dailytele website ....

they said front wheel drive mid sized and cruze models and cadilacs , depending on how that goes possibly a v8 ute , i own a vyss03 ute so i am biased , but the love for everything ls1 v8 ute especially now has just soared this car wont be going anywhere luckily its only got 65 clicks ;)

ford will follow suit soon after (not really a problem lol )

but can they /will they really wind it up like that ??

why ?? pure sales perspective not selling enough as to cost per car to make ??

didnt carsales nationally recently increase ?? or should i just go back under my rock ??

[Angeldust]

the commodore originally was a replacement for the 'large' kingswood. It was meant to be a smaller more efficient car, and that it was.

Unfortunately it has grown to a 'behemoth' size, much much larger and heavier than the 'kingswood' line it replaced, and its a no wonder people don't want it. I mean i don;t even want one as its simply tooo big of a car and i don't need a car that big. Not only that, i dont feel comfortable in driving one, and much much prefer the VT-VZ cars.

The cruze is considered a 'small' car. Funny that, it weighs more than the VN-VS cars, and is almost not far off the VT-VZ cars in mass, and almost similarly sized.

SO why o' why didn't holden make a 'cruze' sized rwd sedan, with choice of 4cyl, v6 and v8 and called it a commodore? This would have been a car i would have desired, and a lot of people would also be attracted to it (think bmw 3-series). As it stands now, i wouldn't want either. (a cruze or a VE/VF).......

[Goggles]

Written by Joshua Dowling! Need i say more? This knob jockey has had a problem with the Australian car industry for years, especially the Falcon. I would only take what he says with a grain of salt... I exchanged tweets yesterday with Joshua on this. I asked him what cheap V8 sedan I could buy in 2017 when the Commodore and Falcon disappear. his response was a Chrysler 300C. I can't see GM leaving that market to Chrysler alone. I suspect that the Chev SS is a toe in the water exercise and if it sells enough, then Chev will develop a RWD fullsize sedan that could easily be sold in Australia as a Commodore replacement. as for what Ford will do, who knows and cares!

[Angeldust]

while on paper the 300c may look like a competitor, I (and probably many others) would not even consider it as an alternative to a v8 commodore. I simply do not like it, its way way to heavy (nearly 2 tonne) and the styling is just not for me.

[Pickles]

as one who was working at GMH at the time...and had input into those decisions then , this situation with VE/VF and its life cycle (and a possible end date)
bears no comparison to 30+ years ago...

my 2c


cheers
OK, some very good opinions in this thread, so, based on your experiences at Holden, what are your views on the future lifespan & other aspects of the Commodore's "future"?
Cheers, Pickles.

[steve_t]

while on paper the 300c may look like a competitor, I (and probably many others) would not even consider it as an alternative to a v8 commodore. I simply do not like it, its way way to heavy (nearly 2 tonne) and the styling is just not for me.

GTS - 1874kg
300C - 1940kg

Styling - horses for courses.

[Smitty]

OK, some very good opinions in this thread, so, based on your experiences at Holden, what are your views on the future lifespan & other aspects of the Commodore's "future"?
Cheers, Pickles.

Pickles...thats a tuffy.
In 1980, I was working in Forward Models and had access to the members of the Product Planning group (which included some of the company directors)
so i know why/how GMH made decisions on the Holden range (WB) vs the Commodore (and also the death of the Torana)

Now...??? its only what the media put up (or make up!) or what I read of Holden press releases (which probably have been edited too)
but having said that, in my opinion Holden as an organization is trying to provide new car customers/buyers with the choice of vehicle in most (not all)
vehicle categories (just look at the range...from Barina to Caprice) however that is being clouded by all the 'noise' about the Commodore ...and manufacturing it here.

I support vehicle manufacturing in this country (even if it needs my $ to prop it up just as other countries do with their vehicle industries) and I think ( I could be wrong)
that if Holden stop producing TOTALLY in this country, that will be a major error on their part. If they just stop producing the Commodore ( as a large car in sedan and wagon variants)
then they will lose those sales. Introducing a mid size Camry competitor as a Commodore replacement will not work. What will happen to the customers who buy V8 Commodores?
Holden will lose them ...totally (they will not get into a Colorado or mid size sedan ..even with a Holden badge)

I can only hope that the new deal with Chevrolet (for the SS) ...plus Australian demand keeps the Commodore being made here at least until 2018 and beyond.

[Smitty]

having thrown the above reply up...
have just read this ( I subscribe to GoAuto) -


http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/07CA8B767B04B979CA257AEC0013455F

worth a read in my opinion

[Pickles]

having thrown the above reply up...
have just read this ( I subscribe to GoAuto) -


http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/07CA8B767B04B979CA257AEC0013455F

worth a read in my opinion
Yes, definitely worth a read....some good positive stuff there.
So, you worked with Leo?
Cheers, Pickles.

[csv rulz]

I have to agree with others, commodore has gotten too big and too heavy. When I sold my VY SS I tried and tried to convince the wife for a new VEII but she didn't feel comfortable in it, she said it was just way way to big and that she would never be able to park it.
I lost the argument and we ended up with a small SUV as it has the space inside but is only 4.5m long.

I personally think the VT-VZ was as big as was ever needed.

Fingers crossed the yanks love the Chevy SS and out of it Holden get to design a new rwd version

[mjrandom]

This cut from Smitty's link is interesting...

"as Holden Vehicle Operations fine-tunes production preparations for its heavily revised VF Commodore that is due to be unveiled next month ahead of a June showroom debut.

GoAuto understands that production line changes for the new VF Commodore and derivatives such as the Statesman and Ute are scheduled to be completed during a shutdown around Easter, which falls at the end of March this year."

I was under the impression that the VF would be unveiled next month with sales starting in March. Wonder which is correct.

[Evman]

It's important to remember that the VE was designed during the peak right before the GFC, when all factors were pointing towards a larger car being suitable and preferable. The Zeta platform was also likely to be used internationally, which would have helped Holden recover a large portion of its investment in it. Then the GFC hit and not only was the the VE very much out of place, the Zeta platform itself was too as it was just too big for a shifted global requirement. The Commodore has done well to hold ground but ever since the GFC it's been the wrong car for the time. Very, very bad timing which is unfortunate.

[C4B]

Sadly I suspect HSV has all but missed the opportunity to re-invent itself before the demise of the Commodore.

What must be considered is that for the XBox generation, who has grown up on Civic's and Imprezas, HSV's are big, poorly built gas guzzlers for middle aged men with too much money. HSV's biggest asset, that being its brand recognition, makes it incredibly difficult for it to reposition itself into another place in the market.

Most existing HSV owners aren't that brand loyal that they will buy a 4 cylinder hot hatch just because it's got the fabled HSV logo on the bonnet so HSV must find a new market, and I'm pretty certain most of the XBox generation aren't going to buy a hotted up 4 potter with a badge that they associate with middle aged men.

If I was in charge of HSV, I'd be working out a way to produce a super hotted up buzzbox (and I don't mean just the usual stuff, I'm talking the W427 of 4 potters) to show the younger guys that HSV isn't just for middle aged men. It's going to take years for their image to change (Just like Volvo took years to shake it's image) and if they wait until the last Commodore rolls off the production line, I'd hazard a guess the horse will have well and truly bolted.

Either way, the resale value on those of us with collectible HSV's is only going to skyrocket once the Commodore ceases to be.

[Plenty]

GTS - 1874kg
300C - 1940kg

Styling - horses for courses.

GTS is relevant only to the 300 SRT-8 with a quoted kerb weight of 1983kg-2012kg, also whilst it's exterior dimensions are Caprice like massive it's interior packaging remains fairly small in comparison to the FG and VE, although it does represent awesome value for money when comparing with the locals.

The 300 is also no comparison for the GTS in handling, it did trounce the R-spec in PCOTY.

[Plenty]

I have to agree with others, commodore has gotten too big and too heavy. When I sold my VY SS I tried and tried to convince the wife for a new VEII but she didn't feel comfortable in it, she said it was just way way to big and that she would never be able to park it.
I lost the argument and we ended up with a small SUV as it has the space inside but is only 4.5m long.

I personally think the VT-VZ was as big as was ever needed.

Fingers crossed the yanks love the Chevy SS and out of it Holden get to design a new rwd version

It depends on your needs, for me there is nothing else out there with the rear seat width i require for child restraints. Even a Prado is alot narrower in the rear seat row then the VE, granted it has the extra row but that doesn't interest me, i want a sporty car that i can have fun with, not a soccer mum Cx-5 or Odysey.

[exwrx]

I thought the projected US figures for the US exports were 10,000 for the SS plus whatever cop car and el camino sales they can get - chickenfeed really.

The bottom line is this - 30,000 domestic sales of commodore and dropping is going to kill domestic production of holdens, and quickly.

Its a business - unless more people buy commodores, holden will stop making them, and soon. I would love to see it survive, but the long term trend is against it.

[mac06]

I was under the impression that the VF would be unveiled next month with sales starting in March. Wonder which is correct.

The article also goes on to explain that the reveal is in February only due to the Nascar race program with the VF starting in February. Sales will still likely only start in May/ June.


Run-out plans for the VE2 Commodore this year have been complicated by the need to reveal VF-based race cars ahead of racing seasons in both the United States and Australia.

The VF-based Chevrolet SS will spearhead the American manufacturer’s NASCAR race program from February, while the Australian version, the Commodore, will do the same for Holden in the Aussie V8 Supercar series.

[Smitty]

Yes, definitely worth a read....some good positive stuff there.
So, you worked with Leo?
Cheers, Pickles.

Leo...at various times yes, I supplied him and others in his Design team, information that impacted on their part of Product planning process
as well as Bill DeLong (Finance director and my boss) who was also on the GMH Product Planning Committee. I guess us guys in Forward Models
had an impact of what GMH did...especially as far as what cars it made. Not forgetting of course that GM Detroit also wielded a lot of power too :)

[aussiemuscle308]

HSV's future looks rather grim really
They couldn't they start importing Corvettes and Camaros? We have a FTA with USA.


Written by Joshua Dowling! Need i say more?
No. once he sees the back of Falcon, he'll put all his effort into dissing Commodore.

[Pickles]

Leo...at various times yes, I supplied him and others in his Design team, information that impacted on their part of Product planning process
as well as Bill DeLong (Finance director and my boss) who was also on the GMH Product Planning Committee. I guess us guys in Forward Models
had an impact of what GMH did...especially as far as what cars it made. Not forgetting of course that GM Detroit also wielded a lot of power too :)
They would've been exciting times.
Cheers, Pickles.
NB: I noticed that "Chuck" Chapman died the other day.....he was the guy that had to deal with the Brock saga.

[Hos]

A little bird told me that VF will be in full production and on sale in March, press and release cars out mid Feb.

[Angeldust]

.........

Either way, the resale value on those of us with collectible HSV's is only going to skyrocket once the Commodore ceases to be.



these are my thoughts too, but i think also that even normal SS based cars (or anything V8) will keep good value. The jap imports are pretty much dead, and there's just about isn't any good cheap jap turbo'd cars available after 2000, except Lsx and xr6T/Boss/5.0Sc cars and WRX(pre-2007). Monaro's will definetly keep their stupidly high prices.

[Angeldust]

They could sell the camaro here i reckon, badged as a hsv, but could they do it for <100K? (70-80K max i would think). Badge it as a HSV GTO and GTS... even holden could sell it as a Monaro SS or something at around 60K. It would be perfect in their line up next to the cruze etc..


(dreaming lol)

[bouka]

Anyone that thinks any commodore will be a collectors car is deluded.

Some rare HSV models maybe, but not for a while.

Anyone in the know have any info on what the designers and engineers are working on now (VF is all done)? Or what HSV is up to now that VF is done? Hmmm.

2018 is when the commodore will say goodbuy. IMHO.

[Angeldust]

Sorry didnt mean collectors cars, just keep good value as demand for a good weekend hoon mobiles increases etc like the jap imports kept their value and still do if in good condition/maintaines etc. doesn;'t make them collectable, just not completely worthless.

[Plenty]

Anyone that thinks any commodore will be a collectors car is deluded.

Some rare HSV models maybe, but not for a while.

Anyone in the know have any info on what the designers and engineers are working on now (VF is all done)? Or what HSV is up to now that VF is done? Hmmm.

2018 is when the commodore will say goodbuy. IMHO.

Yep 2018 is my pick too, not the end of Commodore though! The end of Commodore as we know it...... Maybe they'll start making it in the US for Chev and import them back over here.

The two and only two production line is the confirmed Cruze and the second seems likely to be a cruze/suv type, Mike Deveraux would not comment on the unconfirmed second line due to the VF coming out.

[bouka]

Sorry didnt mean collectors cars, just keep good value as demand for a good weekend hoon mobiles increases etc like the jap imports kept their value and still do if in good condition/maintaines etc. doesn;'t make them collectable, just not completely worthless.

The large numbers in circulation may negate it to some extent but I agree with you. Especially if the falcon and commodore go at similar times.

[Angeldust]

They're just going to slowly disappear from our roads. There's now less commodores on the roads then there has ever been
The VN-VS cars a re disapearing fast. In 10 years time, the VT-VZ cars will be as scarce as the VN's are now, and with only
a 'handfull' of VE/VF's out there, so will be scarce in 15 years time.. like the HQ-HZ's and torana's disapeared, almost overnight
it feels.. (damn ill be almost to old to enjoy driving my 30 year old car in 25years time..)

[macca_779]

Is a run of the mill V8 Kingswood worth anything much? Look to history to establish if a dead model holds any value.

[redvxr8clubby]

Looking back on Commodore History 1978 to 1988 VB to VL, 1988 to 1997 VN to VS, 1997 to 2006 (VT to VZ), all 9 to 10 year cycles. VE/ VF 2006 - 2016 is consistent with last 30 years model cycles, factor in the down turn of numbers being sold now and , I'd say 2016 is likely to be the end. Don't forget Malibu is coming, I assume Holden would be figuring that mid size will be more popular than the big Commodore and only 2 models will be built here.

[Hos]

The info I have been privy to is that VF is all done, and there is nothing special from HSV (same engines etc as VE). When I asked about the 5.5L supercharged engine I was told no. Can't say much more than that, that's all I've found out.

[Smitty]

They would've been exciting times.
Cheers, Pickles.
NB: I noticed that "Chuck" Chapman died the other day.....he was the guy that had to deal with the Brock saga.

yes ..a nice write up on him here in this weeks GoAuto
http://goautomedia.cdn.on.net/goautonews/GoAutoNews_661.pdf .. see Page22

and it also covers Chapmans' involvement in the Brock saga.

its interesting that most of the senior guys/directors in his day were yanks and tuff nuts
although LeoP Bill DeLong and Chuck Chapman would actually say g'day to you as they
passed you in the corridor. That happened reasonably frequently as they all had to walk past
my upstairs office on the way to the Executive Dining room for lunch...

[Jag530G]

Is a run of the mill V8 Kingswood worth anything much? Look to history to establish if a dead model holds any value.

I'm sure there will be some try-hards who think their VF SS will be worth heaps. I think it will take time and will be heavily dependent on what else is around at the time. If there are plenty of affordable high performance cars, such as Golf GTi, WRX, cheaper Chrysler 300 then not so many will care about the demise of Falcadore V8s.

I don't think values will do much in this case because, sadly, many Australians don't really care about V8 Australian made cars any more. I've lost count over the years of guys who see my Monaro and strike up a conversation about the cars they used have, Torana, Falcon whatever and when I ask them what do they drive now? Hilux, Prado, Pajero...

That said in the mid 80's WB's, both utes and Caprices, certainly kept their value when Holden abandoned limos and (sedan based) utes in 1984. Even in the days of the VG-VS utes, WBs went for silly money really. It's surprising what V8 Kingswoods go for nowadays but that is becasue they are so rare, most have gone to the great highway in the sky.

Cheers, Matthew

[Angeldust]

Is a run of the mill V8 Kingswood worth anything much? Look to history to establish if a dead model holds any value.

only 180 V8 holdens from 1967-1980 on carsales at the moment. A couple of cheapies, but you would really need ~10K for a decent one.


http://www.carsales.com.au/car/brand%20new/dealer/demo/private/HOLDEN?base=1216&vertical=Car&page=1&eapi=2&N=246&silo=Stock&Range=Price:Min,Max~1|Year:Min,1980&sort=~Price

VB SL/E 5.0 the cheapsest on there is 17K.....


not completely worthless, and quite desireable.

[bouka]

The info I have been privy to is that VF is all done, and there is nothing special from HSV (same engines etc as VE). When I asked about the 5.5L supercharged engine I was told no. Can't say much more than that, that's all I've found out.

Their is something special from HSV. Both in terms of engine (gts) and features and gadgets. 5.5 doesn't exist. VF was done a while ago.

[Hos]

Sorry Bouka, I misread your earlier post. Regarding HSV, I was led to believe that drivetrain wise there was little difference, and features would upgrade as you'd expect. My source is not at liberty to disclose much info, but I gather they know a lot.

What do you know of the VF commodore and F series HSV's???

[bouka]

Sorry Bouka, I misread your earlier post. Regarding HSV, I was led to believe that drivetrain wise there was little difference, and features would upgrade as you'd expect. My source is not at liberty to disclose much info, but I gather they know a lot.

What do you know of the VF commodore and F series HSV's???

Nothing, just guessing!

Another guess, you are right and wrong about drivetrain. I guess there will be some cool new features. More euro bits and pieces. I would wreckon styling not as crappy as e2/3.

And if you like forced induction.............

[Ausmartin1]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/demise-of-holdens-commodore-and-fords-falcon/story-e6frea83-1226555410358

Check out the Graph, Dam those figures aren't good.

I'm totally surprised Ford Australia even bother to turn the lights on in the morning in the Assembly plant for that production amount, even with the Territory
US chiefs must be cleaning the barrels and polishing the bullets.
Sad state of affairs for the home grown cars.

[CLUBRED]

GoAuto understands that production line changes for the new VF Commodore and derivatives such as the Statesman and Ute are scheduled to be completed during a shutdown around Easter, which falls at the end of March this year.

Statesmans?

[W427GOT1]

sad to see the 'commodore' die, it has had its day, new age in automotive industry.
its mostly about what the consumer wants (cheap and throw away cars)......but ADR are limiting options as well
and with the Green energy research ,companies need a lot of money to do this research, with car sales down they cant research 10 years ahead
Green energy has a long way to go to make car afordable to every 1
as green energy comes in expensive the market will change and compounded with the GFC

so second hand cars may well be a big market or the cheap small cars (if the small cheap car makers can supply them)

limited model cars, as always will take a while to go up in valve as it will be mostly the next generation that will want to buy them.
the next generation the 20 year old cars they will want
as they where unrearchable to purchase when they have just started thier working lives....

just my throughts......history repeats it self just technology changes

[mickeyVX350]

I'm sad to see the demise of any local manufacturing, automotive leads to ancillary companies, then design and engineering...

Really though, we have ourselves to blame, environment aside, we price ourselves out of the market at all levels on labour (I mean, a production line worker wants 80-100K!!!). We then turn around with such ferocity in our middle-class snobbery that we rubbish our own product (I'n not talking here, but we are enthusiasts. Ask an average Joe what they think of Aus cars). If you don't believe me, look at the "beer" thread where everyone rubbishes Aus beer and goes for imports and boutique beers. The same is happening with cars. Australian is "bogan", but really, bogans are driving imports and drinking Heineken now.

I for one support Australian, my cars, and my beer! I'm proud to park my Holden in the carpark with my workmate's SAABs, Renault, Peugots, BMW and Mercs...

As for collectable, they probably wont be, but remember, spikes in value occur when people who idolised a car, but couldn't afford it when they were young finally have the means to purchase one. So these 19-25 year olds that want a GenIII, VE, HSV will buy one in 10-15 years, some guys will wait longer for a mint example. Think VL Turbo, SLE, Torana GTR, Older Monaros, GTHO, and now, Valiant Chargers... All lead by 30-50 something middle class people with some money, no kids and thinning hair!

[planetdavo]

Commodore is NOT ending at the end of 2016.
Anyone that reckons that's "the truth" has heard a rumour from a friend of a friend of a mate's sister at the pub who heard it at the footy from someone's brother's mate, and took it as gospel.

[bouka]

Commodore is NOT ending at the end of 2016.
Anyone that reckons that's "the truth" has heard a rumour from a friend of a friend of a mate's sister at the pub who heard it at the footy from someone's brother's mate, and took it as gospel.

I agree, it's not ending at the end of 2016.

And your information comes from where dave?

[Jag530G]

PD, fair enough, the article I linked to is the only source I have found that mentioned 2016 for the end of Commodore. Pretty much everything else I've come across mentions 2018. I'm actually more curious about the possibility of continuing with the Ute and Caprice, have you heard anything about that?

Cheers, Matthew

[IJ.]

"As predicted by the Mayans"...

[bouka]

"As predicted by the Mayans"...

And really hoping to be just as incorrect!

From where I sit, none of the guessing is done with any sort of joy. In fact very much the opposite. As a loyal and frequent supporter of Aussie made performance cars, this sort of talk is truly heartbreaking.

It would be the same for many of us.

[Jag530G]

And really hoping to be just as incorrect!

From where I sit, none of the guessing is done with any sort of joy. In fact very much the opposite. As a loyal and frequent supporter of Aussie made performance cars, this sort of talk is truly heartbreaking.

It would be the same for many of us.

Too true... A part of Australian motoring culture is going, going... Give it 25 years and V8 sedans will be like the hot rodding today, A reall small subculture of motoring.

[mjrandom]

I think the end of main stream large cars is inevitable. Sad but inevitable. As others have said that doesn't mean the end of HSV or the demise of the performance car. M3, C63 and a plethora of hot hatches. Lets hope GM loosens the reins on HSV and they deliver. TTV6 "Torana" anyone?

[pugz]

No matter what happens in the future u wont see me driving some 4 cylinder hatch junk box rice burning sushi roll.... I don't care how many turbos u put on it either...

[planetdavo]

And really hoping to be just as incorrect!

From where I sit, none of the guessing is done with any sort of joy. In fact very much the opposite. As a loyal and frequent supporter of Aussie made performance cars, this sort of talk is truly heartbreaking.

It would be the same for many of us.

The unfortunate thing about the media (like many in the community if we're being honest), is that people want to be the first to be able to say "I told you so" if they happened to get it right.
And, as always, if they don't get it right, you wont hear any apologies. :slap:
The saddest thing for me out of all this is just how much "Aussies" line up these days to belittle Australian engineering and manufacturing.
Getting hard to find decent old school Aussies these days that try to help their fellow Australians. The bogans are trying to be all posh, and really don't care who they hurt along the way to escape their humble origins. Bragging about internet deals from overseas, the imported brand you bought in Australia and spitting on locally produced items has a sting in the tail. It's called JOBS, and it WILL affect you, your family and/or your friends at some point in your lives. Short term gain and snobbery comes with long term pain for everyone.
Some advice for these types though...an imported car, a massive McMansion or some "designer" brands don't make you a better person...:teach:
This country REALLY needs the US and Europe to financially recover, as it will drop our dollar a fair bit and take the heat off. At the moment, we are a dumping ground for all the excess manufacturing capacity around the world, and people are lapping it up without any forethought of the consequences.

[redvxr8clubby]

Commodore is NOT ending at the end of 2016.
Anyone that reckons that's "the truth" has heard a rumour from a friend of a friend of a mate's sister at the pub who heard it at the footy from someone's brother's mate, and took it as gospel.

Davo, when you read this from the press article, if this quote from Mike Devereux is correct it certainly sounds like the current plan is end of 2016, it also fits with 9 to 10 year model cycles of the last 30 years, giventhe way sales are dropping it would be a brave move to make a huge investment in a similar replacement.


Yesterday at the Detroit motor show, Holden inadvertently confirmed the Commodore's run is due to come to an end in late 2016, the same horizon Ford has previously given for the Falcon.

In an interview with Australian journalists, the boss of Holden Mike Devereux said: "VF (Commodore) will run through to the end of 2016. We have a current plan to put a second (vehicle type) into the plant before 2017."

[VYBerlinaV8]

No matter what happens in the future u wont see me driving some 4 cylinder hatch junk box rice burning sushi roll.... I don't care how many turbos u put on it either...

Good to hear. Companies like Ford and Holden are relying on people like you.

[planetdavo]

Davo, when you read this from the press article, if this quote from Mike Devereux is correct it certainly sounds like the current plan is end of 2016, it also fits with 9 to 10 year model cycles of the last 30 years, giventhe way sales are dropping it would be a brave move to make a huge investment in a similar replacement.


Yesterday at the Detroit motor show, Holden inadvertently confirmed the Commodore's run is due to come to an end in late 2016, the same horizon Ford has previously given for the Falcon.

In an interview with Australian journalists, the boss of Holden Mike Devereux said: "VF (Commodore) will run through to the end of 2016. We have a current plan to put a second (vehicle type) into the plant before 2017."

This is the problem of reading too much into press releases and believing the rumour mill.
What he has done is state that VF production will run through until the end of 2016. What the press release does not say is that this means the axe drops on this date. This is a worst case scenario of insufficient local sales and exports being able to be achieved to justify continuing production into 2017.
The VAP in Adelaide has no issues continuing to produce the existing VF alongside a couple of other platforms for a period of time. I made no suggestion that there would be significant investment in any subsequent updates, so lets leave that scenario out of the discussion.
If sufficient sales continue, on what will be a fully paid for model, production will continue as long as it's justified- factoring in any emissions upgrades and associated costs. Time to vote with your wallet if you want it to continue longer.

[C4B]

Time to vote with your wallet if you want it to continue longer.

People are already voting with their wallets. That's why this thread exists in the first place.

[Plenty]

Davo, when you read this from the press article, if this quote from Mike Devereux is correct it certainly sounds like the current plan is end of 2016, it also fits with 9 to 10 year model cycles of the last 30 years, giventhe way sales are dropping it would be a brave move to make a huge investment in a similar replacement.


Yesterday at the Detroit motor show, Holden inadvertently confirmed the Commodore's run is due to come to an end in late 2016, the same horizon Ford has previously given for the Falcon.

In an interview with Australian journalists, the boss of Holden Mike Devereux said: "VF (Commodore) will run through to the end of 2016. We have a current plan to put a second (vehicle type) into the plant before 2017."

The article you are referencing was written by Joshua Dowling, even if Mike stated the car would be around till the end of time it would have been interpreted the same way, the guy is a flogger of the highest!

Remember the VE ran through to August of 2010 that is 4 years since release date before the series 2 was released...... It could be interpreted as that, as in the series II will follow afterwards.

Like i said he has interpreted the quote how he saw fit, not necessarily how it was meant!

[ryno]

Unfortunately for the Commodore and Falcon the market grew rapidly and the quality and bang for buck that the Japanese and now Korean vehicles have makes it hard for the average punter to walk past.

Add to that the unhealthy obsession for SUV's the commodore/falcon don't stand a chance in the long run.

When I started in the Fleet industry, fleets were generally made up of the commodore executive or falcon forte, the bosses got a berlina, fairmont etc, Now, a fleet has anything but a commodore/falcon in it. While they are great cars, there are cheaper, c02 friendly vehicles in the market that do the job - passion for a brand no longer exists.

Happens to all products, years ago you bought a Panasonic or Sony TV because they were reliable, now people go but the $299 Korean no name brand. It's cheap and does the job.

[Plenty]

People are already voting with their wallets. That's why this thread exists in the first place.

I disagree, i reckon they are buying with misinformed information and an 15 year old stigma.

The VE is as competitive as any car you would care to compare it against, same size etc. For the money there is no other choice that comes close!

[IJ.]

I disagree, i reckon they are buying with misinformed information and an 15 year old stigma.

The VE is as competitive as any car you would care to compare it against, same size etc. For the money there is no other choice that comes close!
As long as the import tarrifs remain in place..

[planetdavo]

People are already voting with their wallets. That's why this thread exists in the first place.

Maybe...maybe not. In a very simple world, yes, you are "correct".
The GFC and subsequent tanking of the US and European markets is what is killing our local product. The prolonged high Aussie dollar from the GFC hangover leading to cheap imports, and all the excess production capacity around the world being dumped into the Australian market. Once this is combined with badge snobbery from desperate bogans and people's belief they MUST have imported vehicles to be socially acceptable, another nail goes in the coffin. Doesn't matter how good the locals are if people have become this stupid.
Anyone who thinks this would have happpened so quickly in a market with far more expensive imports is either kidding themselves, or is exceptionally nieve.

[planetdavo]

The VE is as competitive as any car you would care to compare it against, same size etc. For the money there is no other choice that comes close!

One thing that's become obvious over the years is that even alleged Holden internet forum "fans" gain pleasure in talking down to Holden's these days. We see it every day on here.
One can see just how much society has changed...even though by far the best ever Commodore model is currently on sale at previously unheard of pricing...

[Troutman]

For all the 50+ brands that new car buyers have to choose from, no one seems to notice the elephant in the room.

Falcon and Commodore and derivatives are the only cars on the entire market which fully showcase the talents of local designers and engineers.
Falcon and Commodore are the only cars on the market with a vast and rich history unique to this country
Falcon and Commodore are among the few cars in the world to combine a traditional, rugged, affordable RWD formula with modern standards of safety etc
Falcon and Commodore are perhaps the only practical cars with genuine personality and rawness, as opposed to the contrived German approach showing off pointless technology which masquerades as personality
Falcon and Commodore are the envy of many enthusiasts around the world who regard Australians as lucky, unaware that to drive one here means being branded a 'bogan'

No amount of generic Fiats/Opels/Skodas/whatever, nor cute economy cars or SUVs will make up for a loss of this magnitude. So much for new car buyers being given choice.

[W427GOT1]

One thing that's become obvious over the years is that even alleged Holden internet forum "fans" gain pleasure in talking down to Holden's these days. We see it every day on here.
One can see just how much society has changed...even though by far the best ever Commodore model is currently on sale at previously unheard of pricing...

Its the way of the world, bad news has legs (ears pick up on any word so gains attention)
good news positive things are often short lived over bad Negitive news

[dnos]

My only thoughts with this topic are:

HQ's are stilling being pimped out to the max
Torana's are getting retro fitted with injected monsters
VC SL/E's are still gracing the pages of commodore magazines

No one makes those models any more. Even if the factory stop making them, doesn't mean we won't keep driving them and improving them.

Hopefully our kids will be putting a 2031 KERS hybrid engine with twin turbos into a VE exec and running it at Calder with Weld wheels and cheese cutters and it will be on the front cover of Street Commodores :)

[Goggles]

I did a long drive yesterday and was surprised to see how many SUV type vehicles were on the road. my SSV is a rare beast these days!! I see a couple of problems with SUVs - what is their purchase cost and running costs compared with traditional large sedans? Also given their lack of power and torque, it is no wonder long lines of traffic on highways build up - no one can pass. I might be old school and would only buy anything with a Holden badge, but I also want my daily driver to have a V8. there is no SUV that meets my needs. what do I do if I want to buy a cheapish new car with a V8 in post 2016/2018 when apparently the Commodore is going out of production? the 300c is not in my price range, but a SSV is.

[Smitty]

I did a long drive yesterday and was surprised to see how many SUV type vehicles were on the road. my SSV is a rare beast these days!! I see a couple of problems with SUVs - what is their purchase cost and running costs compared with traditional large sedans? Also given their lack of power and torque, it is no wonder long lines of traffic on highways build up - no one can pass. I might be old school and would only buy anything with a Holden badge, but I also want my daily driver to have a V8. there is no SUV that meets my needs. what do I do if I want to buy a cheapish new car with a V8 in post 2016/2018 when apparently the Commodore is going out of production? the 300c is not in my price range, but a SSV is.

..blame Paul Keating :)


he has always said his biggest mistake whilst Federal Treasurer
..was NOT taxing the S*#T of the (then increasing ) imports of 4WDs and them other funny 4WD thingies


ps..I refuse to call them SUVs (from them yankee marketing 'experts')
Sporty they ain't (we all know that) and..
Utility..there is only one type of REAL utility in Australia and its NOT a Prado

[C4B]

I refuse to call them SUVs (from them yankee marketing 'experts')
Sporty they ain't (we all know that) and..
Utility..there is only one type of REAL utility in Australia and its NOT a Prado

I agree it's such a stupid term.

I think it's just a name they made up for things like 2wd Rav4's, Klugers and Territories so their owners don't realise they've bought a car that looks like a 4WD but has the off road ability of a Sportwagon.

[Goggles]

I agree it's such a stupid term.

I think it's just a name they made up for things like 2wd Rav4's, Klugers and Territories so their owners don't realise they've bought a car that looks like a 4WD but has the off road ability of a Sportwagon. yep agree, which is why I asked the question, most look ugly and probably have the aerodynamics of a brick with no real redeeming features

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

that's NOT all true
we recently sold our GTO and got a TURBO DIESEL 392 nm / 135 KW 2lt A6 AWD sportage platinum SUV you can laugh BUT it DOES blow away 200 series land cruisers v8 , and stock 308 Holdens and 6cyl N/A falcons from the lights ( i do it on regular base's some guys line up to or three times ) the 392 NM is great
up to 80 km not sure how it would beyond that but it sure gets of the mark quick
we did a 1500k trip when it was new and it hits 160 km when passing with no problems so it doesn't hold up the traffic much ( i will admit some of the other brands we drove were awful ) lol

[Plenty]

that's NOT all true
we recently sold our GTO and got a TURBO DIESEL 392 nm / 135 KW 2lt A6 AWD sportage platinum SUV you can laugh BUT it DOES blow away 200 series land cruisers v8 , and stock 308 Holdens and 6cyl N/A falcons from the lights ( i do it on regular base's some guys line up to or three times ) the 392 NM is great
up to 80 km not sure how it would beyond that but it sure gets of the mark quick
we did a 1500k trip when it was new and it hits 160 km when passing with no problems so it doesn't hold up the traffic much ( i will admit some of the other brands we drove were awful ) lol


Sorry but i reckon your racing some old grandpa in a VN Commodore even though i reckon a VN would still smoke you!

Kia Sportage Platinum @ 1588Kg 135Kw 392Nm 0-100km/h = 9.6sec top speed 190km/h

FG Falcon G6E @ 1704Kg 4.0l 195Kw 391Nm 0-100km/h = 7.3sec top speed 200Km/h + limited

VE Commodore Omega @ 1690Kg 190Kw 290Nm 0-100km/h 7.7sec 200 Km/h + limited

And to quote a journalist opinion on it "Any suggestions of sporty is just a mirage, Thrifty turbo diesel impressive only on paper". Diesels have the perceived quickness because of their low down torque but in most of them it is only that perception!

Sorry mate just another traffic clogger.......

P.S. I'm still laughing btw....:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

[IJ.]

LOL @ "Traffic Clogger"..

in his defence though he did say to 80 ;)
(might hit a wall @ 80 and then take 4 seconds to get to 100)

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

LOL
FAIR ENOUGH
i wasn't referring to LATE model stuff , i should have said FROM WHAT YEAR
and yes it does hit a wall at about 50ks but at the lights its all over by then if i stay at the legal speed limit LOL

one thing i don't have to worry about smoking the tires lol , not like the ute

[mjrandom]

My issue with SUVs is the marketing that suggests they are a genuine alternative for a car AND a 4WD. I know we are in the lucky position to have both a nice car and a couple of modded 4WDs. Sand tacks around the Fraser coast this Christmas were pretty soggy given the lack of rain. We rescued 7 of these things in a week. Sure lack of driver skill plays a part but SUVs aren't as capable and that is that. A few made it through but chopped up the tracks badly in the process. Even had one tosser arrive in his Outback strutting around telling anyone in the camp who couldn't avoid it how good his Subie was and why waste money on a piece of **** 4WD. I didn't point out the cubic metres is sand pissing out of the plastic engine guards or the front valence panel which was torn and gaping from an impact with the sand at too many km/h. A bit like the drivers who question why I drive so slowly on the soft stuff. Because I can!

[C4B]

My issue with SUVs is the marketing that suggests they are a genuine alternative for a car AND a 4WD. I know we are in the lucky position to have both a nice car and a couple of modded 4WDs. Sand tacks around the Fraser coast this Christmas were pretty soggy given the lack of rain. We rescued 7 of these things in a week. Sure lack of driver skill plays a part but SUVs aren't as capable and that is that. A few made it through but chopped up the tracks badly in the process. Even had one tosser arrive in his Outback strutting around telling anyone in the camp who couldn't avoid it how good his Subie was and why waste money on a piece of **** 4WD. I didn't point out the cubic metres is sand pissing out of the plastic engine guards or the front valence panel which was torn and gaping from an impact with the sand at too many km/h. A bit like the drivers who question why I drive so slowly on the soft stuff. Because I can!

We do a lot of beach work (normally towing our off-road camper trailer) and hear the same sort of comments from guys in the soft roaders. And to be fair, they do (eventually) get almost everywhere we do, but some of the tracks that we literally idle through (towing over a tonne), they have to attack at 100mph and even then still only just make it.

People tend to think of 4WD's and AWD's as the same thing. And in the burbs that's pretty true, but the reality is an AWD is great if you're attacking a wet dirt road, but in powdery sand (say Indian Head) they're not worth a pinch of shit.

[Jag530G]

People tend to think of 4WD's and AWD's as the same thing. And in the burbs that's pretty true, but the reality is an AWD is great if you're attacking a wet dirt road, but in powdery sand (say Indian Head) they're not worth a pinch of shit.

I think AWD type cars like Klugers simply have the ground clearance that old Holdens and Fords had, good for driving down moderate dirt roads that you wouldn't take a modern Ford and Commodore because of the low ground clearance, low profile tyres and (maybe) low front spoiler.

BTW the Americans have another label besides SUVs. CUVs, Compact Utility Vehicle, basically RAV 4 et al. SUVs are more Kluger sized+

Cheers, Matthew

[Plenty]

I think AWD type cars like Klugers simply have the ground clearance that old Holdens and Fords had, good for driving down moderate dirt roads that you wouldn't take a modern Ford and Commodore because of the low ground clearance, low profile tyres and (maybe) low front spoiler.

BTW the Americans have another label besides SUVs. CUVs, Compact Utility Vehicle, basically RAV 4 et al. SUVs are more Kluger sized+

Cheers, Matthew

Ahh the Kluger, the one and only ever vehicle to roll over during the Wheels Car Of The Year program during ESP testing. lol

[bouka]

We just got back from nz and had a brand new kluger for a week. Leather etc and the 200kw v6. We drove over 2000klm in that week (family reunion, my wife is from unzud) and was ok. Cheap plastics and the v6 is gutless, but handled ok (plenty of twists and turns) for what it is. Our other car is tarago (I have a lot of kids) and that has been great.

I think we need to put all of these other vehicles into perspective. Having a dig at the other stuff doesn't make ours better and there are a lot of great imported cars.

I personally don't understand the suv phenomenon either, but the market is speaking and it ain't good for commo or falcon. Why? WTFK!

[Angeldust]

Amazing how many people willl this Australia day be putting on the Aussie flag on their Imported cars.

At least i will be 'hooning' past them in my 'Australian' car. I will be proud.

[VYBerlinaV8]

Amazing how many people willl this Australia day be putting on the Aussie flag on their Imported cars.

At least i will be 'hooning' past them in my 'Australian' car. I will be proud.

Will that the one with the yank engine?

[Angeldust]

Will that the one with the yank engine?

hey cmon now...better a commodore with a yank engine then no commodore at all.

[VH-COM]

hey cmon now...better a commodore with a yank engine then no commodore at all.

Better a commodore with a yank engine than an engine built by Tata or maybe Great Wall Motors .
(shouldn't speak too loud ... it might happen one day.)

[Evman]

Amazing how many people willl this Australia day be putting on the Aussie flag on their Imported cars.

At least i will be 'hooning' past them in my 'Australian' car. I will be proud.

I know where you're coming from. Sometimes I wish Australians had more patriotism. The people doing a lot of the supporting of Australia just get labelled bogans or whatever. It's disappointing.

[VYBerlinaV8]

hey cmon now...better a commodore with a yank engine then no commodore at all.

Fair point. I agree. In fact, it's like we can design and manufacture our own vehicles and still use good bits from elsewhere, so it's win/win.

[Angeldust]

I was drivivng behind a VK calais 5.0 to work this morning. It has been a while since ive seen any old commo's on the road.

I was blown away by how tiny the car was in comparison to todays 'small' cars.....

[Hi Octane]

People who say i wont own anything other than a Holden need to brush the mullet hair do & actually see what else is on the market, what if holden did a rebaged i-30, would you buy it. Some people are stuck in the 80's.

[BLACK 346]

I was drivivng behind a VK calais 5.0 to work this morning. It has been a while since ive seen any old commo's on the road.

I was blown away by how tiny the car was in comparison to todays 'small' cars.....

Yes, amazing how much cars have grown. The VK is only a smidgen bigger that my wifes Rex.

[IJ.]

I was drivivng behind a VK calais 5.0 to work this morning. It has been a while since ive seen any old commo's on the road.

I was blown away by how tiny the car was in comparison to todays 'small' cars.....
Commodore was based on the Opel Royale and while a "big" car in Europe it was mid sized here when compared to the Kingswooods/Falcons of the day (78/79)

For some reason Holden decided to ditch the IRS of the Opel and put a live axle in (think they failed at the Wilpena Pound test ground from memory) it's since bloated to the Full Size whale we all love today :)

(I miss my old VB)

[csv rulz]

Reading wheels the new Mazda 6 is only a smidgen smaller than the VE. Its amazing how quickly cars get bigger in size.

[steve_t]

Reading wheels the new Mazda 6 is only a smidgen smaller than the VE. Its amazing how quickly cars get bigger in size.

Is that length, weight, cabin size (litres)? VE definitely looks bigger but looks can be deceiving

[redvxr8clubby]

Is that length, weight, cabin size (litres)? VE definitely looks bigger but looks can be deceiving

VE 4903 long, 1899 wide, wheelbase 2915, height 1471. Combined fuel consumption 8.9 l/ 100km
Mazda 6 - 4865 long, 1840 wide, 2830 wheelbase, 1450 high. Combined fuel consumption 6.6 l/100Km

[Angeldust]

VE 4903 long, 1899 wide, wheelbase 2915, height 1471. Combined fuel consumption 8.9 l/ 100km
Mazda 6 - 4865 long, 1840 wide, 2830 wheelbase, 1450 high. Combined fuel consumption 6.6 l/100Km


Holy crap.. that is big.

The difference in running costs on fuel only would be like 10lt/400km. Or approx ~ $15 per tank of fuel.

I guess this is enough to sway people into the 'smaller' car. Lol, i spend that much on ciggy's a day.


The mazda is what, a 4cyl 2.xx litre engine vs VE's 3.0 V6. I would think the difference in fuel consumption would be less.


Whats the difference in vehicle weight of the base models?

[Angeldust]

i believe the commodore should only be around the size of a 3-series BMW (e46) or C63 Merc.
(we need a poll, to see what view everyone here has on the size necessity)

Can a car of that size(e46 3series) be built from the zeta platform?

Also, does the commodre after the VF need an all 'new' engeenered from the ground up chassis?
WHy can't they just use the current platform, just modified, with all new styling? I mean it is a
damn good chassis, so why the need to re'engeener for the next commodore? How much better can
a chassis get (excluding fit and finish etc) before they decide its not good enough anymore?

Look at the olf VB-BL, VN-VS and VT-VZ. I believ they used the same chassis, just extensively
modified (progress) before teh all 'new' VE. How come all of a sudden the 'zeta' platform is not good
enough after such a short (relatively) life-span????

[Marco]

You could build such a car on GM's Alpha platform. Question is will the market want a RWD mid sizer with less interior space than its competitors, or will Mr and Mrs Average look at it, look at how much more space they get in a FWD mid sizer or an SUV, and decide they don't want one?

I think the only way we will see a car - of whatever description - with anything more than a brief once-over by local engineers and stylists is if that car can do 80-100k units per year like the good old days. When we are now looking at 30k Commodores a year, and maybe 40 or even 50 if the market gets excited about VF - we will have to make do with a modified Malibu, Impala or Captiva five years from now.

Do thank your SUV owning friends next time you see them...

[Angeldust]

......

Do thank your SUV owning friends next time you see them...


lol, i do... and everyone that has an import of any kind...well lately anyway lol


I agree with what you say as well. Also back in the 100K a year days, the govement/business used
a very large propotion of these as fleet vehicles.

I think this is it. Last chance is for the VF to be popular in the US, and hopefully we would get an
imported RWD V6/V8 sedan badged as commodore. (Possibly also built here along with the cruze).

Now we just wait and see how it plays out.

[VL Executive]

I was drivivng behind a VK calais 5.0 to work this morning. It has been a while since ive seen any old commo's on the road.

I was blown away by how tiny the car was in comparison to todays 'small' cars.....

I reckon its a good feeling too. I was coming back home from a 100 km highway trip, when for about 40 of those km/s came across a very good, original condition VC SL/E 5.0. Just sat and cruised with it, doing 100 - 105 km/h. With the occasional squirt when overtaking slower vehicles. The 5-0 sounded good when he opened it up too. The old VC still held its own as a nice highway cruiser. Ended up parting with it when I had to go onto another highway. But yeah it was a good travelling companion, :cool: It is getting rare to see the older 1st gen Commodores on the roads, especially highway runs. That was 4 years ago and have not seen it or another one since.

[Woodchukka]

Commodore was based on the Opel Royale and while a "big" car in Europe it was mid sized here when compared to the Kingswooods/Falcons of the day (78/79)

For some reason Holden decided to ditch the IRS of the Opel and put a live axle in (think they failed at the Wilpena Pound test ground from memory) it's since bloated to the Full Size whale we all love today :)

(I miss my old VB)

I have a book somewhere and the results of testing the VB were sent to Germany and they said test again as the results from testing showed too much flex in the body when the same results were sent again they came out and after they were taken over the test route they said you can't do that with our car so it had to be engineered to suit Australian conditions (and drivers :evil:). I wonder where that book is...?

[VH-COM]

Whats the difference in vehicle weight of the base models?

Mazda 6 = 1462-1593kg
VE = 1,690–1,825 kg

[Plenty]

VE 4903 long, 1899 wide, wheelbase 2915, height 1471. Combined fuel consumption 8.9 l/ 100km
Mazda 6 - 4865 long, 1840 wide, 2830 wheelbase, 1450 high. Combined fuel consumption 6.6 l/100Km

VE rear hip room 1472mm, rear shoulder room 1499mm, front shoulder room 1501mm, cargo volume 496l
Mazda 6 rear hip room 1419mm, rear shoulder 1435mm, front shoulder room 1399mm, cargo volume 470l

Even though the Mazda is almost the same exterior, VE is packaged better with larger internal dimensions.

On a side not our mate Joshua Dowling has tried to back out of his slagging of the Aussie icons.

Have a read HERE (http://www.carsguide.com.au/blogs-and-stuff/carsguide-blog/media_are_not_the_problem)

[Angeldust]

Im kinda lusting after a VB-VC -VH, 253 (4.2ltr) auto, full pollution gear stock 100kw (or was
it 88kw? im unsure) V8 slug.

There's a certain beauty in having such a large engine, with such a pidly power
figure and so so performance by todays standards. Its kind of like the reverse
of having a 'real' performance pack model ie VC HDT Brock etc. I like...

[Angeldust]

We need another "V8 'till '98" campaign lol.


"Commodore till 2024" ???????? lol

[Evman]

This should be the next Commodore IMO

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/images/holden-aims-04-1-big.JPG

[Angeldust]

maybe this 'should have been' the next commodore (ie VE/VF)

[Jag530G]

VE 4903 long, 1899 wide, wheelbase 2915, height 1471. Combined fuel consumption 8.9 l/ 100km
Mazda 6 - 4865 long, 1840 wide, 2830 wheelbase, 1450 high. Combined fuel consumption 6.6 l/100Km


And a VT Commodore was 4882mm long, 1,824mm wide, 2,788mm wheelbase, 1,424mm high, 1,551kg base model.

So the new Mazda 6 is wider, higher and on a longer wheelbase than a VT and only 17mm shorter? Bloody hell!!!

Cheers, Matthew

[Smitty]

Commodore was based on the Opel Royale and while a "big" car in Europe it was mid sized here when compared to the Kingswooods/Falcons of the day (78/79)

For some reason Holden decided to ditch the IRS of the Opel and put a live axle in (think they failed at the Wilpena Pound test ground from memory) it's since bloated to the Full Size whale we all love today :)

(I miss my old VB)

oh my..how history gets distorted

The Aussie original Commodore was to be based on the Opel Rekord from around 1975/76 but it was found that the GMH engines would not fit
so the longer nose from the Opel Senator was stitched on..and we got the VA Commodore. Styling clinics gave it the thumbs down
(the 4 headlights in the design were a loser apparently) so we also the Rekord 'flat' headlight and what we all know now as the VB Commodore.

The Opel Rekord had a solid rear axle and in Opel spec caused problems when outback testing, with their shockers wearing out/stopped working
which punched the shocker thru the rear shocker tower..which also fractured the boot floor. Mods were made and the Australian rear axles
suspended via a new 5 link setup (which fitted into the modded.. read strengthened Rekord bodywork) for the Commodore we got.

The Opel also used a steering box setup mounted on the chassis just into front of the firewall (like a HG Holden) and that, also during Outback
durability testing, caused the chassis on the Opel test mule to break . The Opel had a double wishbone front suspension which also failed in testing
and GMH elected to use the Senator front strut suspension (which came with the Senator's long nose bodywork anyway)

You mention the Opel Royale. There was no such vehicle. However the Opel Senator was sold in the UK as the Vauxhall Royale

hth...

[IJ.]

oh my..how history gets distorted

The Aussie original Commodore was to be based on the Opel Rekord from around 1975/76 but it was found that the GMH engines would not fit
so the longer nose from the Opel Senator was stitched on..and we got the VA Commodore. Styling clinics gave it the thumbs down
(the 4 headlights in the design were a loser apparently) so we also the Rekord 'flat' headlight and what we all know now as the VB Commodore.

The Opel Rekord had a solid rear axle and in Opel spec caused problems when outback testing, with their shockers wearing out/stopped working
which punched the shocker thru the rear shocker tower..which also fractured the boot floor. Mods were made and the Australian rear axles
suspended via a new 5 link setup (which fitted into the modded.. read strengthened Rekord bodywork) for the Commodore we got.

The Opel also used a steering box setup mounted on the chassis just into front of the firewall (like a HG Holden) and that, also during Outback
durability testing, caused the chassis on the Opel test mule to break . The Opel had a double wishbone front suspension which also failed in testing
and GMH elected to use the Senator front strut suspension (which came with the Senator's long nose bodywork anyway)

You mention the Opel Royale. There was no such vehicle. However the Opel Senator was sold in the UK as the Vauxhall Royale

hth...
My Apologies, I was in the UK at the time and just use Opel/Vauxhall interchangeably thanks for the correction..
(actually got to drive a Royale while I was there as a cousin had just bought a new car)

[seldo]

oh my..how history gets distorted

The Aussie original Commodore was to be based on the Opel Rekord from around 1975/76 but it was found that the GMH engines would not fit
so the longer nose from the Opel Senator was stitched on..and we got the VA Commodore. Styling clinics gave it the thumbs down
(the 4 headlights in the design were a loser apparently) so we also the Rekord 'flat' headlight and what we all know now as the VB Commodore.

The Opel Rekord had a solid rear axle and in Opel spec caused problems when outback testing, with their shockers wearing out/stopped working
which punched the shocker thru the rear shocker tower..which also fractured the boot floor. Mods were made and the Australian rear axles
suspended via a new 5 link setup (which fitted into the modded.. read strengthened Rekord bodywork) for the Commodore we got.

The Opel also used a steering box setup mounted on the chassis just into front of the firewall (like a HG Holden) and that, also during Outback
durability testing, caused the chassis on the Opel test mule to break . The Opel had a double wishbone front suspension which also failed in testing
and GMH elected to use the Senator front strut suspension (which came with the Senator's long nose bodywork anyway)

You mention the Opel Royale. There was no such vehicle. However the Opel Senator was sold in the UK as the Vauxhall Royale

hth...Smitty - didn't the Rekord body also get an additional 50-60mm added longitudinally down the centre of the body?

[Smitty]

Smitty - didn't the Rekord body also get an additional 50-60mm added longitudinally down the centre of the body?
no..not to my knowledge

it was talked about when GMH went to VK (got that from LeoP) but widening? it never eventuated until VN
yeah..VN which is a widened VL body with VL front suspension :)

[Jag530G]

Smitty - didn't the Rekord body also get an additional 50-60mm added longitudinally down the centre of the body?

As per Smitty's comment it was the VN that was wider than the Omega A, but it wasn't widened down the centre it was added at the sills, hence why the VN has the tippy toe look, basically narrow VL suspension under the wider body.

BTW Smitty thanks for you comment, I've always wondered why we were lucky enough to get rack and pinion steering in the Commodore when the Opels didn't have it, now I know!

Cheers, Matthew

[Angeldust]

The VT-VZ had the most body styles and drivelines available then any previous model commodore or holden.
(sedan, coupe, wagon, ute, crewman, statesman lwb, + the AWD variants and HSV's.)(3.8 V6, 3.8S/C V6, 3.6 V6, 5.0 V8, 5.7 V8, LS1, LS1 C4B, LS2, L98/L76)
AT this point in time things were looking good for Holden. Then the GFC hit.

I love these cars. The VZ would have to be my favourite model commodore. Im my opinion its the perfect balance between size/weight/engine capacity, with the 6.0ltr variants taking the cake. The VZ clubbie still has a better power to weight ratio than the current VE GTS (only the w427 beats it). I will be intrested to see what the mass of the VF will be and hence its power to weight ratio. The VE is like an orphan at the moment..

I think the VH had/has? the record for the most amount of engine/driveline combo's available in the single model.

[IJ.]

You forgot the Tonners and AWD Tonners AD ;)

[Plenty]

The VT-VZ had the most body styles and drivelines available then any previous model commodore or holden.
(sedan, coupe, wagon, ute, crewman, statesman lwb, + the AWD variants and HSV's.)(3.8 V6, 3.8S/C V6, 3.6 V6, 5.0 V8, 5.7 V8, LS1, LS1 C4B, LS2, L98/L76)
AT this point in time things were looking good for Holden. Then the GFC hit.

I love these cars. The VZ would have to be my favourite model commodore. Im my opinion its the perfect balance between size/weight/engine capacity, with the 6.0ltr variants taking the cake. The VZ clubbie still has a better power to weight ratio than the current VE GTS (only the w427 beats it). I will be intrested to see what the mass of the VF will be and hence its power to weight ratio. The VE is like an orphan at the moment..

I think the VH had/has? the record for the most amount of engine/driveline combo's available in the single model.

All manufacturers have struggled with the huge weight increases needed to increase structural strength and technology in the cars, with new manufacturing processes and pressing techniques filtering down to the general industry, massive weight gains are now over we should now be able to see more "fruit" in the cars for less mass.

[Jag530G]

AT this point in time things were looking good for Holden. Then the GFC hit.

I think the VH had/has? the record for the most amount of engine/driveline combo's available in the single model.

SOmeone earlier has a link to an article showing the sales figures of COmmodores and Falcons going back to the 80's. The high point for the Commodore was the VX and at the same time there was the entusiasm for the new Monaro and around this time (prob a touch earlier) Holden began planning production of the various spin offs you mention, crew man, AWD, tonners. This was 2000-2002 and oil was still cheap. 2003 saw the Iraq war and rising oil prices and that is when the rot began to set in, sales fell from this point despite Australia being in great economic shape 2003-2007. In fact I can remember on this forum a popular thread at the start of 2005 or 2006 HSV doing $49,990 driveaway on clubsports which was a huge discount. To me that was a real eye opener at the time. You had plenty of guys making money in building trades and the mines yet HSV were discounting the crap out of their cars, something had changed and I believe the run up in oil prices from 2003 did it.

BTW although it was only a show car, you forgot about the VY SS Hatchback and if we got a bit interpretive about body styles maybe the Sandman Canopy on the ute.

Cheers, Matthew

[701let]

The VT-VZ had the most body styles and drivelines available then any previous model commodore or holden.
(sedan, coupe, wagon, ute, crewman, statesman lwb, + the AWD variants and HSV's.)(3.8 V6, 3.8S/C V6, 3.6 V6, 5.0 V8, 5.7 V8, LS1, LS1 C4B, LS2, L98/L76)
AT this point in time things were looking good for Holden. Then the GFC hit.

I love these cars. The VZ would have to be my favourite model commodore. Im my opinion its the perfect balance between size/weight/engine capacity, with the 6.0ltr variants taking the cake. The VZ clubbie still has a better power to weight ratio than the current VE GTS (only the w427 beats it). I will be intrested to see what the mass of the VF will be and hence its power to weight ratio. The VE is like an orphan at the moment..

I think the VH had/has? the record for the most amount of engine/driveline combo's available in the single model.

I didn't buy a commodore for years because I didn't like the vt-vz era. Yet I've bought 2 ve now.. The ve may be heavier and larger but the bottom line is that there really isn't that much in it as you and others here would suggest.. I think the whole GFC and people trying to cut their weekly overheads ie fuel , insurance and rego costs, which are no different vz-ve is what has contributed to the lack of sales, that combined with more competition that is of a higher quality and specification than what was around back in 2005. It's got nothing to do with people preferring the 'smaller' vz IMO.

[Jag530G]

I think the VH had/has? the record for the most amount of engine/driveline combo's available in the single model.

I reckon the HT had more powertrain combos. It saw the cross over of Chev to Holden V8s.

Sixes: 161,186, in both hi and lo comp, 186s,
Eights: 253 (lo/hi comp???), 307,308,350.
Autos: Powerglide and very late HTs have the trimatic
Manuals: 3 speed manual, 4 speed manual.

Perhaps the LH had more combos, engines were 1.9L 4, 173 & 202 6s, 253 & 308 L31 & 308 L34 V8s. Not sure if lo/hi comp 173 and 202 were available.

Cheers, Matthew

[planetdavo]

The ve may be heavier and larger but the bottom line is that there really isn't that much in it as you and others here would suggest...It's got nothing to do with people preferring the 'smaller' vz IMO.

Have to agree. The vast majority of punters out there that think a VE is big will think VT-VZ is big as well.

[IJ.]

You forgot the Tonners and AWD Tonners AD ;)

And I forgot the Adventras which is odd as I own one as well as the AWD Tonner!!

DOH