Who uses E85 in their V8 commodore?

[LTH-00L]

Hi guys, i just got an SSV Redline sportwagon in perfect blue and am loving it!

I know the car can run E85 fuel but i just wanted to know if there is anyone here who has been running it for a while and may have some insight they could share.

I've got a caltex down the road which sells it and the price is 20c per litre cheaper than E10.

Look forward ro hearing from anyone..

[brasher]

used eflex for 2+ years and 45k km's now in my VE2. With the odd 98 tank thrown in when out of Sydney.

On 98 octane I get 12.5L/100 avg speed 55kph
on eflex 15.2L/100 same speed. So you fill up a bit more, but the $$$ savings are there.

Take note this is with a Tuned ECM. I Have a Xcal3, so I can flip between "stock" map, tuned 98 and Tuned E85. I'm lucky that I have 3 Eflex servo's within close distance of me.

It's great stuff if it's available to you.

[macca_779]

used eflex for 2+ years and 45k km's now in my VE2. With the odd 98 tank thrown in when out of Sydney.

On 98 octane I get 12.5L/100 avg speed 55kph
on eflex 15.2L/100 same speed. So you fill up a bit more, but the $$$ savings are there.

Take note this is with a Tuned ECM. I Have a Xcal3, so I can flip between "stock" map, tuned 98 and Tuned E85. I'm lucky that I have 3 Eflex servo's within close distance of me.

It's great stuff if it's available to you.

You have a Series 2 with a flex fuel sensor. Why have two different tunes for 98 and E85 when one tune can incorporate both fuels and interpolate between the two even

[brasher]

You have a Series 2 with a flex fuel sensor. Why have two different tunes for 98 and E85 when one tune can incorporate both fuels and interpolate between the two even

Like you said, It still utilizes the flex sensor and just leave it in "stock" tune (modified to suit my mods) and I can throw any combo of fuel through it, theoretically when the tank is full of eflex and on the "stock" tune there should be no real difference between it and the dedicated E-flex one. However, the Eflex specific tune is a bit more aggressive and makes another 15rwkw.

[macca_779]

each map is specific for the fuel, so I can leave it on the stock map, make 260rwkw, about the same with the 98 map and another 15rwkw with the specific Eflex tune.

There are tables for both fuels though

[02PRUV]

I only run eflex in all my cars and my lawn mower. I'm being green and makes my daily driver make 1000hp on pump fuel

[white lie]

Still waiting to even get e10 over here... probably be another 5-10 years before we get the good stuff! :(

[LTH-00L]

Thanks for the responses so far, it's reassuring that everyone so far has had positive experiences with E85. Anyone experienced any sort of component failure? I mean the media and mechanics lead us to beleive ethanol is evil.. and i dont men from an environmental pospective. Im not too interested in that, i just want to know that by using E85 im not causing any future damage to my car at the same times, saving a few $.

[VendeTTR]

E85 will not cause any damage in your redline, Holden intended for you to use it in your car.

[XUV]

Still waiting to even get e10 over here... probably be another 5-10 years before we get the good stuff! :(
Fek ,I'm still waiting on e10 to make it to the Riverina , the N.S.W. Lib wankers veto'd e10 to replace standard ULP across the state.

[Troutman]

Main thing to watch for is that E85 doesn't last as long as petrol, so is not suitable for cars that are rarely driven. Good on you guys for supporting the local fuel industry though.

[HSVREDSLED]

I run Corn juice in my car 95% of the time...Its fine. Economy a little worse but with 20c litre savings I am in front.

[Angeldust]

does anyone worry at all about the amount of 'water' that could be dissolved in with the ethanol, particurarly if the servos don't service/clean their tanks etc???

[R8133]

I'm thinking of converting to e85 to my 08 ls3 clubsport, does anyone know what's involved apart from bigger injectors and tune?

[macca_779]

does anyone worry at all about the amount of 'water' that could be dissolved in with the ethanol, particurarly if the servos don't service/clean their tanks etc???

Not really no. People pay good money for water injection

[swingtan]

I've been running United E85 for 4 months now which includes a period of two weeks where the car sat and was not started. VZ L76, cam, exhaust, a bit of tuning........ I don't really understand the idea of running two separate tunes when you have a VE though. If you swap between ULP and E85, all you get is some unknown blend between the two, meaning neither tune is optimal. Use the Ethanol sensor (SII) or turn on the calculations, at least you have some chance of blending between ULP and E85 and getting the correct fueling / spark / etc.

Overall, the average fuel usage has gone from 14.5L/100KM to 21/100KM. The average price difference has been around 70% cheaper for E85 compared to 98 ULP. Doing the maths over the 4 months has seen a very slight improvement in cost per KM with the E85 and there is a significant improvement in power delivery.

With the ethanol based fuel, peak torque appears slightly lower in the RPM range compared with ULP. Other drivability has not changed at all and it's a very nice car to drive. The next task is to enable the flex fuel tables and play with blending, just because I can.....

Also, people should remember that Caltex E-Flex is not "E85". It's a blend with "up to" 85% Ethanol and from what I've heard, not many people have actually seen anything like that from the pump. Normally it's a bit more like E75, whereas the United E85 is pretty much dead on the money and has been consistent over the last 4 months.

[team illucid]

I am still not convinced that saving $10 a week is worth stopping 2 times at the servo for. If saving that little money is important, perhaps rethink V8 ownership.

[macca_779]

I've been running United E85 for 4 months now which includes a period of two weeks where the car sat and was not started. VZ L76, cam, exhaust, a bit of tuning........ I don't really understand the idea of running two separate tunes when you have a VE though. If you swap between ULP and E85, all you get is some unknown blend between the two, meaning neither tune is optimal. Use the Ethanol sensor (SII) or turn on the calculations, at least you have some chance of blending between ULP and E85 and getting the correct fueling / spark / etc.

Overall, the average fuel usage has gone from 14.5L/100KM to 21/100KM. The average price difference has been around 70% cheaper for E85 compared to 98 ULP. Doing the maths over the 4 months has seen a very slight improvement in cost per KM with the E85 and there is a significant improvement in power delivery.

With the ethanol based fuel, peak torque appears slightly lower in the RPM range compared with ULP. Other drivability has not changed at all and it's a very nice car to drive. The next task is to enable the flex fuel tables and play with blending, just because I can.....

Also, people should remember that Caltex E-Flex is not "E85". It's a blend with "up to" 85% Ethanol and from what I've heard, not many people have actually seen anything like that from the pump. Normally it's a bit more like E75, whereas the United E85 is pretty much dead on the money and has been consistent over the last 4 months.

Simon I can confidently say eFlex is ~74% all year round. I've tested it 4 times throughout a 12 month period every time I come down to melbourne and run on it and its very consistent.

While yes it isn't E85 and subsequently won't have the full octane rating of the united stuff. Its still well up there and in an N/A or low boost application you'll be hard pressed to see any power decrease.

The bonus is that because its got a smaller ethanol percentage you'll get better millage out of it. Take that into consideration and the fact that its pretty much on par with the united price and in my opinion its the better fuel to use in addition to it being far more available.

[macca_779]

I am still not convinced that saving $10 a week is worth stopping 2 times at the servo for. If saving that little money is important, perhaps rethink V8 ownership.

How about better performance and reduced carbon build up in the cylinder. Hell I'd pay more to run on it, the fact its cheaper is just a bonus

[team illucid]

I'd pay more to run on it, the fact its cheaper is just a bonus

I seriously doubt you would. If money wasn't an issue, you would be driving around on AVGAS.

I don't see many Commodores with more than 300000 KMs on the clock, so the carbon build up is a mute point. Better performance maybe, but not many of us race cars for a living, so a few extra ponies is hardly here nor there.

[macca_779]

I seriously doubt you would. If money wasn't an issue, you would be driving around on AVGAS.

I don't see many Commodores with more than 300000 KMs on the clock, so the carbon build up is a mute point. Better performance maybe, but not many of us race cars for a living, so a few extra ponies is hardly here nor there.

No I seriously would. How many guys run on 98 when 95 does just as good a job only sacrificing minimal power.. Plenty.

You think it takes 300 000k's to build up excessive carbon. How many engines you pulled down?

[benjo]

hi all :)

One thing to be mindful of with E85 is if you change your exhaust to a mild steel one it wont last to long.

[JimmyXR6T04]

From my calculations, eflex costs about as much as running 98. There was minimal cost savings from eflex. Eg: 98 returned between 12-13L/100km. Eflex returned between 15-16.5L/100km. Doing the maths, eflex worked out to be about 20-30c cheaper per 100km... I feel the car is more responsive, and pulls harder using eflex, the down side is that i drive it harder as a result, therefore using more than 15L/100...

Using 91 is the cheapest, as when i used it for a few tanks i still averaged between 12.5 and 13.5L/100... Making it a little cheaper than eflex....

I primarily use a mix of eflex and 95. Usually a few tanks of 95, then a tank of eflex.

[dogsballs]

I am still not convinced that saving $10 a week is worth stopping 2 times at the servo for. If saving that little money is important, perhaps rethink V8 ownership.
not about $$'s. better fuel higher octane etc. i run 12.0+:1 compression and it loves e85. only issue i have is dead cold starts i have to crank it a couple times (although need to take back to tuner for a fiddle). also an in tank aeromotive 340 died after 9mths.

[VendeTTR]

I love it, yeah have to fill up more often, but it's no real inconvenience. I average 21L per 100 with my combo. Pretty safe to say that I'm not goin to average 14.5 on 98 just to break even. No trouble with cold starting yet. I use the united fuel and it tests at E92

[macca_779]

not about $$'s. better fuel higher octane etc. i run 12.0+:1 compression and it loves e85. only issue i have is dead cold starts i have to crank it a couple times (although need to take back to tuner for a fiddle). also an in tank aeromotive 340 died after 9mths.

Fixable in the tune. Mine cold starts like stock

[bad88u]

ive been using it for 2 months now. went from 12L per 100kms on 98 to 17-18L per 100kms. saving of about 35cents per litre if filled on the right days..

driving ssv s2 ute.

[Tre-Cool]

I have switched to it recently, but i get it by the drum. Unfortunatly it appears my drum is not quite 85% ethanol. Atleast I haven't seen it over 71% through my new guage.

As mine is a series 1 it doesnt have the built in flex sensor, but this will be resolved soon thanks to the new sensor that will be wired into the ecu.

http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/VESS/flex-fuel-sensor.jpg

http://www.vyssute.com/downloads/VESS/zeitronix.jpg

[JimmyXR6T04]

ive been using it for 2 months now. went from 12L per 100kms on 98 to 17-18L per 100kms. saving of about 35cents per litre if filled on the right days..

driving ssv s2 ute.

So, you save 35c off the price of 98, but you do realise it's actually costing you more per 100km than running 98 right? Based on your figures of 12L for 98, lets assume that 98 is $1.60 so it's costing you $19.20 to drive 100km at 12L/100... On eflex/e85 at 17L/100 and assuming the price is 35c cheaper at $1.25 it's actually costing you $21.25 per 100km...

So, in actual fact, you're not 'saving' anything.

[white lie]

Thats a big increase in usage... I always thought it was around a 20% increase in consumption and a 30% cost difference so you end up saving around 10%.

[JimmyXR6T04]

Thats a big increase in usage... I always thought it was around a 20% increase in consumption and a 30% cost difference so you end up saving around 10%.

In Canberra, E10 is about $1.47, and eflex at 1.30... For those that want to run e10, there's no saving using eflex.

It's a rort, eflex should be closer to the $1.00-1.10 mark if e10 is 1.47, then it would certainly be worth it. But for the average motorist, who doesn't really care about performance, e10 is the way to go.

[bad88u]

So, you save 35c off the price of 98, but you do realise it's actually costing you more per 100km than running 98 right? Based on your figures of 12L for 98, lets assume that 98 is $1.60 so it's costing you $19.20 to drive 100km at 12L/100... On eflex/e85 at 17L/100 and assuming the price is 35c cheaper at $1.25 it's actually costing you $21.25 per 100km...

So, in actual fact, you're not 'saving' anything.


Was meant to write 14L per 100L

[JimmyXR6T04]

Was meant to write 14L per 100L

Cool, that's great economy for e85. I wish i could get 14L on eflex. I'm lucky if i get 15... Usually closer to 15.5 though.

[BLACKVE]

These figures for stock cam cars seem high, whats the avg speeds etc. My ute with 239/247 cam was getting 13>14L's on E85, avg speed was up at 70km/h for the drive to work though.

Love E85 runs smother than the 100 united i was using just cost to much for dual pump and injectors etc.

[ittwgn]

fark me with my setup i'm lucky to get 200km out of a full tank!!!!!

[JimmyXR6T04]

These figures for stock cam cars seem high, whats the avg speeds etc. My ute with 239/247 cam was getting 13>14L's on E85, avg speed was up at 70km/h for the drive to work though.

Love E85 runs smother than the 100 united i was using just cost to much for dual pump and injectors etc.

My driving is mostly 80-100km/h to and from work. 20km each way. But what kills me is when i have to do any school drop off/pick up. If i only had to drive to and from work i reckon i could average 13-14L on eflex. I reset my trip computer the other day, and driving only to and from work i am averaging 11.5L/100km, so eflex would be around the 13-14 for sure... Average speed is about 60km/h

[dogsballs]

Fixable in the tune. Mine cold starts like stock
the higher comp has a bit to do with it as well.

[brasher]

These figures for stock cam cars seem high, whats the avg speeds etc. My ute with 239/247 cam was getting 13>14L's on E85, avg speed was up at 70km/h for the drive to work though.

Love E85 runs smother than the 100 united i was using just cost to much for dual pump and injectors etc.

15.5L/100 avg 55kph for me, but thats a bit of "spirited overtaking" thrown in :)

stock cam, but the usual intake/exhaust/tune stuff

[Brett240]

I'm thinking of converting to e85 to my 08 ls3 clubsport, does anyone know what's involved apart from bigger injectors and tune?

a fair bit, Ethanol chews up standard fuel lines, so you need to swap over your entire fuel system, the car will be ok for a little while but not forever. E10 and 85 compatability is not about just having a flex fuel sensor. not worth it.
The Ethanol content in E85 will change throughout the year, in the winter months the Ethanol content is lower in order to help cold starts.

[VendeTTR]

That's largely false info really. I'd be pretty confident to just tune it on the fuel on a std fuel system. I've done it before and would do it again.

Caltex have locked in their ethanol percentage for a couple of years before they start varying it. Where united fuel is the same all year round. Nice and consistent.

[macca_779]

a fair bit, Ethanol chews up standard fuel lines, so you need to swap over your entire fuel system, the car will be ok for a little while but not forever. E10 and 85 compatability is not about just having a flex fuel sensor. not worth it.
The Ethanol content in E85 will change throughout the year, in the winter months the Ethanol content is lower in order to help cold starts.

Wrong wrong wrong.

[Brett240]

Well, ethanol degrades rubber, so I would be checking with holden before doing it.

i'f im wrong on both points, im happy to be directed to the facts you have.

[Dieselman]

Well, ethanol degrades rubber, so I would be checking with holden before doing it.

i'f im wrong on both points, im happy to be directed to the facts you have.

The VE has plastic fuel lines for start :)

[Brett240]

The VE has plastic fuel lines for start :)

your right that is a good start. so there is no rubber all the way through? all fittings, tank gaskets, fuel pump etc? zero rubber? You'd want to be very confident.

[Brett240]

That's largely false info really. I'd be pretty confident to just tune it on the fuel on a std fuel system. I've done it before and would do it again.

Caltex have locked in their ethanol percentage for a couple of years before they start varying it. Where united fuel is the same all year round. Nice and consistent.

Caltex state right on their website that they vary the percentage between seasons.

[VendeTTR]

Caltex state right on their website that they vary the percentage between seasons.

Then why hasn't it been at 85% yet since introduction? :idea:

[Brett240]

Then why hasn't it been at 85% yet since introduction? :idea:

the variance is between 70 and 85% according to Caltex, I cant see where they have specifically said it had to be bang on 85% during a specific season.

[macca_779]

Brett you clearly come across as someone who is basing all their information from 3rd part sources. Guys like Tom, myself and many others have been using this stuff for years.

The composition of all modern fuel lines is 100% compatible with ethanol. We've ran the stuff in our old VT's let alone new VE's no problems

Yes you are right that caltex does state eflex "can" vary between 70-85% it even states it on the pump. But the facts are based on samples done by Dale in Sydney, Martin in Adelaide and myself in Melbourne is that all year round samples taken at different locations around the country confirm that it's ~E74 all the time from introduction till now.

[VRIIClubby]

Hi guys, i just got an SSV Redline sportwagon in perfect blue and am loving it!.

Had ours for nearly 6 months now and still loving every moment in it! (Alto though)


Fek ,I'm still waiting on e10 to make it to the Riverina , the N.S.W. Lib wankers veto'd e10 to replace standard ULP across the state.

Petrol is BS out here, Just got back from a Sydney trip tonight, Left Riverina Friday night Shell V Power $1.74, Saturday morning Shell V Power in Windsor $1.60! back here tonight $1.75! Massive difference!

And still no sight of any E85 branded petrol! Im guessing it wouldnt be anywhere near as cheap if it ever lands itself here.

[Brett240]

Brett you clearly come across as someone who is basing all their information from 3rd part sources. Guys like Tom, myself and many others have been using this stuff for years.

The composition of all modern fuel lines is 100% compatible with ethanol. We've ran the stuff in our old VT's let alone new VE's no problems

Yes you are right that caltex does state eflex "can" vary between 70-85% it even states it on the pump. But the facts are based on samples done by Dale in Sydney, Martin in Adelaide and myself in Melbourne is that all year round samples taken at different locations around the country confirm that it's ~E74 all the time from introduction till now.

you are right I certainly don't have laboratory tested samples throughout various times of the year so ill have to take your word for it. It seems strange that Caltex state they vary the percentage if they don't.

I still don't think its right to promote using E85 in cars not originally designed for it, The fuel line may be compatible but you can't guarantee every link in the chain is. So you are taking a risk for hardly any benefit.

[macca_779]

you are right I certainly don't have laboratory tested samples throughout various times of the year so ill have to take your word for it. It seems strange that Caltex state they vary the percentage if they don't.

I still don't think its right to promote using E85 in cars not originally designed for it, The fuel line may be compatible but you can't guarantee every link in the chain is. So you are taking a risk for hardly any benefit.

I can guarantee that I and many others have experienced no ill effects from running high % ethanol fuels.

You hardly need a lab to test accurately for ethanol content either.

I fail to see how you see it as having hardly any benefit. More power, cleaner engine, cheaper/km and better for the greenies.

Only real con's to the fuel is increased consumption. But that's mitigated against the price so its a mute point.

[VendeTTR]

Seems the only people that bag E85 are the ones that have never used it.

[brasher]

Seems the only people that bag E85 are the ones that have never used it.

exactly, so much dogma and bullshit about this fuel. It's great stuff.

For guys with Blown applications, what increases are you making over 98 octane?

[jsme]

I love E85. Even in my standard ute. I can notice the difference. Better throttle response definately and a better shove in the back too. I hate watching that fuel gauge go down though.

[VZMaloo183]

Running 98 in a LS2 Twin Turbo was sitting on roughly 465rkw(Mainline)

Had the tune done by Martin on E85 and went on to produce 495rwk, on 10psi. Definately felt the diffrence and found boost comes on slightly sooner..


exactly, so much dogma and bullshit about this fuel. It's great stuff.

For guys with Blown applications, what increases are you making over 98 octane?

[ittwgn]

no direct comparison for me as setup was changed !!! but now I drive to the drags running pump e85 compared to $12 a litre c16 !!!

[feistl]

So question for E85 experts...

I'm getting closer to building my new engine and the question of E85 vs 98 has been raised.... (Engine is a 427ci LSX with a HTV2300 charger, car sees a fair bit if circuit work).

What happens if your car is tuned for E85 and you run 98? Will it be an issue for just putting around town or is it a bad idea regardless of how hard you drive.
See the thing for me is i will be doing some long distance road trips around Vic/Aus and E85 probably wont be available everywhere. I dont want to be stuck with a E85 tune and no fuel. Could i fill up with 98 and just say stay below 3000pm/25% throttle?

The thing is my fuel system should be good enough to support E85 so i wont cost me any extra to run it, its just the convenience factor i need to worry about.

Cheers

[VendeTTR]

Dual tune PCM from doubledip I think that's his username, I'm still yet to get one but when I get a bit more spare cash I will for sure. 2 tunes, run it low and fill up or drain the tank. Easy.

[swingtan]

It will all depend on the ECM being used.

For LS1B, a duel tune setup would be the go as there is no "flex fuel" settings to manage the change in fuels.

For E40 / E38, I'd run the standard flex fuel tables, unless other factors prevent this. Running a duel tunes is a massive compromise as neither will be able to compensate for a blended fuel composition. the Flex fuel settings on the other hand will blend fueling and spark tables between ULP and E85, exactly what you want in this case. When switching between fuels, you will not be running either ULP or E85, as some residual fuel will remain in the tank from the previous fill. To give an idea, if you were running ULP and then filled with 65L of E85, you will still have had 7L of plain ULP in the tank. Assuming you filled with actual E85, your fuel tank now contains closer to E76. That will result in a significantly richer mixture if run on a true E85 tune with no blending.

The newer ECM's are designed for flex fueling and from SII come with real Ethanol % sensors. It's there, make use of it!

Simon

[feistl]

Edit - Swington posted before i hit submit

Thanks for that info

[macca_779]

Dual tune PCM from doubledip I think that's his username, I'm still yet to get one but when I get a bit more spare cash I will for sure. 2 tunes, run it low and fill up or drain the tank. Easy.

A flash tuner like an autocal is another alternative. That way you can have a few different tunes with varying % of ethanol content.

[swingtan]

So what controller will you be using? As soon as I fix my cold dynamics tables, I'm going to try flex fueling mine using calculations as I don't have the sensor.

[Brett240]

I can guarantee that I and many others have experienced no ill effects from running high % ethanol fuels.

You hardly need a lab to test accurately for ethanol content either.

I fail to see how you see it as having hardly any benefit. More power, cleaner engine, cheaper/km and better for the greenies.

Only real con's to the fuel is increased consumption. But that's mitigated against the price so its a mute point.

Hi Macca, what method are you using to test for Ethanol content? just out of curiosity, no further points intended.

[macca_779]

Hi Macca, what method are you using to test for Ethanol content? just out of curiosity, no further points intended.

A test beaker and a bottle of water

[brasher]

I have one of these, an overpriced tube lol. at least it has lines on it

http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/specialty-parts/echecker---e85-fuel-test-tube.html

as said before, eflex ~75% but united I did a test and it was well over 85, closer to 90! Rocket fuel!

[feistl]

Ive ordered 2 of these kits a while back (Havnt used them yet).

http://www.fuel-testers.com/international_orders.html

Look pretty good for the price though

[bush_basha]

can a series one VE run the ethanol sensor like a standard series 2 and your right to go with mixing fuels E85 and ULP? or is it a little more involved

[swingtan]

The settings are in the tune, it's just a case of tapping the sensor into the fuel line and running the wires. I "think" the pins are still in the ECM sockets, but may not be in the existing look plug. So you might need to get that pin added as well.

On another note, I turned on the fuel trims last night (first time in 4 months) and averaged wel withing +/- 5% so I think I'll turn on the flex fuel tables tonight. It'll be a "calculated" ethanol percentage, as I don't have the sensor, so we'll see how it goes. I need to rest a number of fueling and spark tables to do this so will need to do it when the engine is hot and the O2 sensors ready to start correcting.

[Micks]

Simon are you using the std fuel pump & injectors with your setup? When I inquired @ my local shop was told it would be mandatory to upgrade for more power.
Not sure if this is really necessary & doubt an L77 engine would use a larger pump or injectors compared to an L76.

[brasher]

Simon are you using the std fuel pump & injectors with your setup? When I inquired @ my local shop was told it would be mandatory to upgrade for more power.
Not sure if this is really necessary & doubt an L77 engine would use a larger pump or injectors compared to an L76.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has an upgraded pump. Don't take that as gospel.

[macca_779]

Simon are you using the std fuel pump & injectors with your setup? When I inquired @ my local shop was told it would be mandatory to upgrade for more power.
Not sure if this is really necessary & doubt an L77 engine would use a larger pump or injectors compared to an L76.

The L77 cars do run a much larger capacity fuel pump

[IJ.]

Great thread guys, mine is a VZ/E38 car if I were to consider this I'd have to add a Sensor due to the nearest e-85 being a 150km round trip.

The Tables are all there so is it still just a case of wiring the Sensor to the PCM?

[swingtan]

Running stock fuel system on a cammed L76. I did max the injectors out very early on with E85, but I was running too rich up top. Once I pulled back some fuel it's running fine.

[Micks]

Thanks Simon in an L76 std injectors, std pump what's the est pwr figure without an upgrade?

[dogsballs]

mine was 276rwkw with exhaust and mafless tune on e-flex.

i run a bit of comp and a ls2 cam, then changed to e85, maxed fuel pump then injectors, so swapped to Ls9 52lb and an aeromotive 340 intank (which recently died so replaced with walbro), making ~300rwkw thru big stall.

[swingtan]

I'm not really sure about the real power figures mine is running ATM, but I'd think it was up around 290-300.

[Alex(AUS)]

Running stock fuel system on a cammed L76. I did max the injectors out very early on with E85, but I was running too rich up top. Once I pulled back some fuel it's running fine.

How is it going Simon? Works well?

Alex

[lease1]

Why bother with E85? I have my SSV running the ICOM JTG Liquid Injected LPG, 108RON of goodness, usage within 5% of petrol equivalent and paying less than 50% of the price for fuel. $4750 install price, 32k and 10 months to break even and LPG available at 1000's of more servo's than E85. LPG is a no brainer for those in the know!

[bad88u]

So good news for me, they opened up a united down the road from my place.
I Have both eflex and e85 both 7 km either direction. I was running 98 for about 10 months until
Caltex got eflex in.. Used that for 2 months, then united got e 85..

My figures


98 ILP: 14.5-15L per 100 Kms $110 per tank..
Eflex : 17-18L per 100kms $75 -$80 per tank
United : 15-15.5 per 100 Kms $ $70 - $75 per tank

[Micks]

Why bother with E85? I have my SSV running the ICOM JTG Liquid Injected LPG, 108RON of goodness, usage within 5% of petrol equivalent and paying less than 50% of the price for fuel. $4750 install price, 32k and 10 months to break even and LPG available at 1000's of more servo's than E85. LPG is a no brainer for those in the know!

Sensible if doing high K's!! But I ain't. E85 setup won't cost me $4,750 either!!

[macca_779]

Why bother with E85? I have my SSV running the ICOM JTG Liquid Injected LPG, 108RON of goodness, usage within 5% of petrol equivalent and paying less than 50% of the price for fuel. $4750 install price, 32k and 10 months to break even and LPG available at 1000's of more servo's than E85. LPG is a no brainer for those in the know!

Yep it is good stuff. I just can't justify the initial outlay for a car that's not a daily.

[swingtan]

How is it going Simon? Works well?

Alex

Works very, very well. Needs some tweaking of dynamics, but otherwise pretty quick to get going tune wise.

[fullysikk]

Went from 330rwkw to 390rwkw. An aftermarket fuel pump was also added which helped too.

[RRR888]

Went from 330rwkw to 390rwkw. An aftermarket fuel pump was also added which helped too.

Damn that is a serious gain, great work - What are the specs on your setup?

[LuisS]

Damn that is a serious gain, great work - What are the specs on your setup?

would want to be boosted :P

[Micks]

What options does one have regarding upping the pump with a tonner/crewie fuel tank setup?

[HSVREDSLED]

Checked my fuel usage today. 3 out of 5 tanks is E85...and a lot of freeway driving...13.1l /100. (Untuned and un thrashed)

[LTH-00L]

With normal city driving im getting about 18L/100km. Untuned..

[Micks]

Checked my fuel usage today. 3 out of 5 tanks is E85...and a lot of freeway driving...13.1l /100. (Untuned and un thrashed)

That's excellent Sled! Your wagon is an A6?

[Drasius]

http://www.news.com.au/business/gridlock-danger-jump-out-of-your-car-to-keep-australia-moving/story-e6frfm1i-1226589072119

Granted they aren't using V8's, but it's interesting info nonetheless.

E85 vs E10 vs P98

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2011/02/04/2167260/graph1a.jpg

"Still, the E85-fuelled car proved 0.3 seconds quicker in the sprint to100km/h compared with the E10 Commodore. As expected, the car running premium unleaded was quicker again (by 0.3 seconds), suggesting it's the fuel of choice if performance is your goal."

So for bog stock cars, is it possible that 98 is a better bet than E85 and that it's only when getting serious compression/blower/turbo that E85 pulls ahead? What's the breakeven point though, that's the real question.

[calais190]

Why bother with E85? I have my SSV running the ICOM JTG Liquid Injected LPG, 108RON of goodness, usage within 5% of petrol equivalent and paying less than 50% of the price for fuel. $4750 install price, 32k and 10 months to break even and LPG available at 1000's of more servo's than E85. LPG is a no brainer for those in the know!

In my VEII SSV, E85 is a no brainer as it costs me nothing in mods to run. And still delivers around 105-108 octane...

[Drasius]

http://www.news.com.au/business/gridlock-danger-jump-out-of-your-car-to-keep-australia-moving/story-e6frfm1i-1226589072119

Granted they aren't using V8's, but it's interesting info nonetheless.

E85 vs E10 vs P98

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2011/02/04/2167260/graph1a.jpg

"Still, the E85-fuelled car proved 0.3 seconds quicker in the sprint to100km/h compared with the E10 Commodore. As expected, the car running premium unleaded was quicker again (by 0.3 seconds), suggesting it's the fuel of choice if performance is your goal."

So for bog stock cars, is it possible that 98 is a better bet than E85 and that it's only when getting serious compression/blower/turbo that E85 pulls ahead? What's the breakeven point though, that's the real question.

Wrong Link: http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/ethanol-put-to-the-test-e85-v-e10-v-premium-unleaded-20110205-1ahgx.html

[BLACKVE]

Anyone noticed E85 prices of late, went in to servo seen $1.38 for unleaded expecting E85 around $123 and noticed it was a$1.33 only 5cents cheaper, has woollies changed its price or was this servo just out of whack???

[dogsballs]

united has e85 fixed to 25c cheaper than unleaded. i filled up yesterday $1.10 /L

[tacka007]

Anyone kno about new e3 clubby guy from hsv told me they are only e10
Not e85

[BLACKVE]

i'll check out my united then, $1.33 is the most I've ever paid.

[macca_779]

Anyone kno about new e3 clubby guy from hsv told me they are only e10
Not e85

HSV's are not compatible from factory with E85. Bit disappointing that when every other commodore is

[brasher]

yeah regularly copping 1.25 to 1.30 for eflex, load of shit considering I was paying 97c/L when I first got my ute.

[jono0309]

United is better fuel and its cheaper.
Paid $1.16 yesterday for it.

[HSVREDSLED]

Anyone know of a way to find out which United servos in NSW sell E85. Website says nothing, customer service didnt answer any emails.

[macca_779]

United is better fuel and its cheaper.
Paid $1.16 yesterday for it.

Debatable. Unless you need every ounce of octane which you won't then really due to the higher ethanol percentage its worse off for economy compared to eFlex. Of course that would be if the price was the same.

[white lie]

Anyone know of a way to find out which United servos in NSW sell E85. Website says nothing, customer service didnt answer any emails.

Do you have something similar to fuel watch over there? Govt run over here, can search for prices on every fuel at any location or brand and they release the next days pricing around 2-3pm so you can see if its going up or down.

[HSVREDSLED]

Do you have something similar to fuel watch over there? Govt run over here, can search for prices on every fuel at any location or brand and they release the next days pricing around 2-3pm so you can see if its going up or down.



Cheers buddy, Nah didnt help. Just checked the WA site and it doesnt show E85 either unless I read wrong? Thanks anyway.

[HSVREDSLED]

Debatable. Unless you need every ounce of octane which you won't then really due to the higher ethanol percentage its worse off for economy compared to eFlex. Of course that would be if the price was the same.

Macca is there E85 near Wagga? I cruise through there heading to the oldies place on the Murray.

[macca_779]

Macca is there E85 near Wagga? I cruise through there heading to the oldies place on the Murray.

I wish mate. I only get to use it when I venture away from home.

[white lie]

WA doesn't have e85 yet.
United have only just started selling e10/P100 this month, that's how far we are behind the times!

[VZ_V8]

WA doesn't have e85 yet.
United have only just started selling e10/P100 this month, that's how far we are behind the times!

On this topic...

I have just started using the United P100 (98 + 10% ethanol) for the last two tanks in my ute. It feels much better to drive, cold running is noticeably smoother and the engine just feels more responsive overall. My ute just has a tune, exhaust and OTR. Is it going to be fine to continue using this fuel without changing anything? My tune is not overly aggressive and my AFRs range between 12.5-12.8. I have been monitoring my knock retard using the Torque app and am getting none.

My fuel door says E10 suitable which is essentially the same as P100 as they are both 10% ethanol but I am not sure if this is still the case now the car is tuned or not?

Any thoughts. Looking at you macca... :lol:

[LuisS]

On this topic...

I have just started using the United P100 (98 + 10% ethanol) for the last two tanks in my ute. It feels much better to drive, cold running is noticeably smoother and the engine just feels more responsive overall. My ute just has a tune, exhaust and OTR. Is it going to be fine to continue using this fuel without changing anything? My tune is not overly aggressive and my AFRs range between 12.5-12.8. I have been monitoring my knock retard using the Torque app and am getting none.

My fuel door says E10 suitable which is essentially the same as P100 as they are both 10% ethanol but I am not sure if this is still the case now the car is tuned or not?

Any thoughts. Looking at you macca... :lol:


Q:Were those AFR's before or after the United P100? And if after , how many tanks have you done since the switch. In my experience switching to E10 fuel generally leans the mix by almost 1 point.

[swingtan]

I'm going to guess the AFR's quoted, are the "commanded" values from the ECM, not measured from the tail pipe.

Assuming LTFT's are switched one, I doubt that any "damage" would be done. The stoichiometric point of E10 based fuel is about 14.0:1 vs. 14.7:1 for plain ULP, so you are always about 0.7:1 AFR lean on commanded fueling with E10. The LTFT's should cover this, but remember that when going WOT, the LTFT's are a "best guess" correction. The last time I played with E10, I found the fueling was different enough from straight ULP that a re-tune saw significant benefits.

Regarding knock, if the tune was correct for ULP, then using a higher RON fuel is not going to show up any KR. You may be able to add some more timing though, to take advantage of the new fuel.

Simon.

[macca_779]

I'm going to guess the AFR's quoted, are the "commanded" values from the ECM, not measured from the tail pipe.

Assuming LTFT's are switched one, I doubt that any "damage" would be done. The stoichiometric point of E10 based fuel is about 14.0:1 vs. 14.7:1 for plain ULP, so you are always about 0.7:1 AFR lean on commanded fueling with E10. The LTFT's should cover this, but remember that when going WOT, the LTFT's are a "best guess" correction. The last time I played with E10, I found the fueling was different enough from straight ULP that a re-tune saw significant benefits.

Regarding knock, if the tune was correct for ULP, then using a higher RON fuel is not going to show up any KR. You may be able to add some more timing though, to take advantage of the new fuel.

Simon.

Simon I'm not sure about the LTFT grid on the E38. But on the LS1 its a 4x4 table.

The highest being the 2200rpm/77kpa cell. If that is getting hit it will carry over to all WOT scenarios above that range.

The caveat is that only positive trims are applied to WOT. Negative trims will be ignored out side closed loop

[blow thru]

When I was doing my cam swap I asked Chris at HT how much would I benefit from e85 at 10.30 comp and he said I will achieve bigger all.THis one mod that's played on my mind as I see most people making good gains, but I'm not the tuner.But considering I'd have to retune with larger injsectors pump etc prob not worth the gains on a asp 5.7

[macca_779]

When I was doing my cam swap I asked Chris at HT how much would I benefit from e85 at 10.30 comp and he said I will achieve bigger all.THis one mod that's played on my mind as I see most people making good gains, but I'm not the tuner.But considering I'd have to retune with larger injsectors pump etc prob not worth the gains on a asp 5.7

Yeah your relatively low comp will see little gains. The biggest perk to E85 is the window it opens up for tuning. You can shove so much bloody timing at the stuff and the motor simply won't care. Not that you will get any more power out of it doing so, but it makes tuning a lot easer to get maximum gains.

You can also fatten it right up and watch a good gain in torque. I've ran as rich as .77 Lambda and it loves it when you really load up the car.

[IJ.]

Yeah your relatively low comp will see little gains. The biggest perk to E85 is the window it opens up for tuning. You can shove so much bloody timing at the stuff and the motor simply won't care. Not that you will get any more power out of it doing so, but it makes tuning a lot easer to get maximum gains.

You can also fatten it right up and watch a good gain in torque. I've ran as rich as .77 Lambda and it loves it when you really load up the car.

Found in the past more timing usually means more power??? Isn't this the case with E-85?

My Composition Sensor should arrive tomorrow so I'm getting a bit excited about running 85 now :)

[macca_779]

Found in the past more timing usually means more power??? Isn't this the case with E-85?

My Composition Sensor should arrive tomorrow so I'm getting a bit excited about running 85 now :)

Once you are past mean best torque you'll go backwards with more timing. With E85 it won't drop off as much or as early once you exceed optimal timing of mbt

[IJ.]

Once you are past mean best torque you'll go backwards with more timing. With E85 it won't drop off as much or as early once you exceed optimal timing of mbt


Ok got ya now :)
( a bit like petrol but better )

This was a 100% serious question as I have 0 experience with E-85 so NFI!

[macca_779]

Ok got ya now :)
( a bit like petrol but better )

This was a 100% serious question as I have 0 experience with E-85 so NFI!

Soon though yeah. Once you play with it you'll love it

[VZ_V8]

Q:Were those AFR's before or after the United P100? And if after , how many tanks have you done since the switch. In my experience switching to E10 fuel generally leans the mix by almost 1 point.


I'm going to guess the AFR's quoted, are the "commanded" values from the ECM, not measured from the tail pipe.

Assuming LTFT's are switched one, I doubt that any "damage" would be done. The stoichiometric point of E10 based fuel is about 14.0:1 vs. 14.7:1 for plain ULP, so you are always about 0.7:1 AFR lean on commanded fueling with E10. The LTFT's should cover this, but remember that when going WOT, the LTFT's are a "best guess" correction. The last time I played with E10, I found the fueling was different enough from straight ULP that a re-tune saw significant benefits.

Regarding knock, if the tune was correct for ULP, then using a higher RON fuel is not going to show up any KR. You may be able to add some more timing though, to take advantage of the new fuel.

Simon.


That is the range of AFRs from my dyno printout. The curve sits between those values. So they are prior to using the P100 from when I had it tuned originally. So I am not sure where they come from?

I think I will go see my tuner tomorrow and see what he has to say.