VF Commodore revealed - Official details and pics- Part 2

[Speedy Gonzales]

Something must be wrong with my logic if BMW, Benz and Audi can build cars that appeals to Europe, Asia, American and Middle East

[Jac001]

Something must be wrong with my logic if BMW, Benz and Audi can build cars that appeals to Europe, Asia, American and Middle East

The biggest issue is that the commodore and caprice etc just don't fit into GM's global portoflio.

Very few regions are interested in large non luxury branded cars. If you look at GM Chevrolet brand world wide, in most markets the largets sedan is a malibu and in some countries its the cruze!

In these countires, the average family can't afford to run a large 3.6L or 6.0L car and the wealthythat can afford to run these cars will choose a luxury branded car.

Thus the market for the commodore is limited to where fuel is relatively cheap (with the exception of the UK where it is badged as a 'premium' badged' vauxhall an not as a chevrolet, and china where the caprice is badged as a buick).

For the commodore/ caprice to be global models it needs to be come an opel/ buick or if it stays as a chevrolet it needs to be merged with the impala.

[Jag530G]

The biggest issue is that the commodore and caprice etc just don't fit into GM's global portoflio.

Very few regions are interested in large non luxury branded cars. If you look at GM Chevrolet brand world wide, in most markets the largets sedan is a malibu and in some countries its the cruze!

In these countires, the average family can't afford to run a large 3.6L or 6.0L car and the wealthythat can afford to run these cars will choose a luxury branded car.

Thus the market for the commodore is limited to where fuel is relatively cheap (with the exception of the UK where it is badged as a 'premium' badged' vauxhall an not as a chevrolet, and china where the caprice is badged as a buick).

For the commodore/ caprice to be global models it needs to be come an opel/ buick or if it stays as a chevrolet it needs to be merged with the impala.

All true above. The other issue for the Commodre and Caprice to be sold world wide is that GM already has a premium brand that sells small and mid size (and in 2015 large) RWD cars, Cadillac. In much of the rest of the world there is simply no market for non-premium large RWD 6 and 8 cylinder sedans. If people want a big car they buy an SUV or they buy a premium badge, M-B S CLass, BMW 7 series, Audi A8, Jag XJ.

Cheers, Matthew

[empower]

All true above. The other issue for the Commodre and Caprice to be sold world wide is that GM already has a premium brand that sells small and mid size (and in 2015 large) RWD cars, Cadillac. In much of the rest of the world there is simply no market for non-premium large RWD 6 and 8 cylinder sedans. If people want a big car they buy an SUV or they buy a premium badge, M-B S CLass, BMW 7 series, Audi A8, Jag XJ.

Cheers, Matthew

that's simply because BMW and Mercedes don't gouge their customers in most markets.

[Party Pete]

I have to say that it is bit depressing that even some people on this forum are writing off the VF as not being good enough before they have even released them into the market. Give it a chance to see how much they have improved it over the VE. I have been a critic of the VEs interior since it was released but the new one looks good and promises much, so let's at least see how the VF actually turns out before we write it off.

Unfortunately the reason why we get gouged on both the Commodore and prestige Euro brands comes down to history and expectation. For many years we had a 50% tariff on imported passenger cards and more recently as the tariffs were removed (down to 5% now), our exchange rate wasn't particularly favourable. Now people simply expect to pay a premium price for the premium brands so why would the importers want to give up their margins. You only have to look at the prices charged for e-class mercs and 5 series BMWs compared to the SUV equivalents. Model for model you pay much less for the larger and more expensive SUV than the sedan on which they are based. This isn't the case overseas but then due to the lack of tariffs in the past on SUVs, people don't expect to pay as much of a premium. Unfortunately this trickles down the line to less prestiges brands like Holden. In the US, they are paying half the price for Merc E550 or a BWM 550i so Holden simply can't sell the Commodore for as much as they do here. It doesn't mean that I like it though as we are just being gouged.

[powerd]

I have to say that it is bit depressing that even some people on this forum are writing off the VF as not being good enough before they have even released them into the market. Give it a chance to see how much they have improved it over the VE. I have been a critic of the VEs interior since it was released but the new one looks good and promises much, so let's at least see how the VF actually turns out before we write it off.

Unfortunately the reason why we get gouged on both the Commodore and prestige Euro brands comes down to history and expectation. .................... In the US, they are paying half the price for Merc E550 or a BWM 550i so Holden simply can't sell the Commodore for as much as they do here. It doesn't mean that I like it though as we are just being gouged.

Thank you, Party Pete. At least someone here talks sense. Wherever you live, the price you pay for a non-commoditised product such as a car, is little to do with the cost of production(though that affects producers' margins), but everything to do with what the buyer is willing to pay for the item. And in the US, people aren't willing to pay much because most people don't earn that much (although some earn heaps) and they have had an oversupply of cheap but often crappy local cars for 50 plus years. Europe and other countries are not dissimilar. Have you noticed how, since tariffs have reduced and more brands launch here, imports have reduced in relative price and increased their competitiveness? That is a big part of why Holden has had to dramatically increase the perceived quality and technology of the VF otherwise it would have no future at all. Hopefully they have achieved that and will build it much better than the VE too - they need to.

Mid-late last year I went shopping for a larger wagon with good performance, lots of rear legroom (my teens turned into basketballers when I wasn't looking), good handling particularly for long trips and high equipment levels. I considered a SS Sportwagon (performance, ride and handling are great, I love the way it drives on Aussie roads), but was so put off by the crude interior and basic equipment, plus memories of my last Commodore's surfeit of faults, that I just couldn't do it. I ended up with a Skoda Superb V6 4x4 wagon and the quality and overall completeness is like chalk and cheese. The difference is volume - the platform is used in a huge number of VAG products so they can invest vast amounts of money in its development and the same goes for the CANBUS system, aircon, audio, seats etc, everything reflects having serious money to spend. Skoda alone produces over 500,000 vehicles off this platform(Octavia and Superb, closely related and sharing most major parts) with the rest of the VAG making hugely more sharing similar components. Holden makes, now, less than 40,000pa off the Commodore platform and only some components (engine, gearboxes etc) are high volume global parts. You can experience that investment difference in everything you see and touch, or drive on, in the Skoda. To drive and use, it has the same bank vault solidity and quality of switchgear and materials as a Merc or Audi, (though not the style of the latter). And this is the challenge for Holden - can it go on trying to compete on such dismal volumes by world standards. If you think that the VE is a world class car, then I think you have very little understanding of what that means these days. Building cars is a high fixed cost business, so high volume is the key to being profitable and able to invest for future product improvement.

Ford is caught in the same problem with the Falcon, as its "lesser" models (Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo etc) overtake the Falcon in engineering and technology terms. We can only hope that the Commodore after the VF is built off a fully global platform with decent quality and technology and my guess is that t won't be built in Australia, but that a different, more niche vehicle from the same platform will replace it at Elizabeth.

And by the way, they will equip it and price it however they think the market bear it. But ultimately, after a few months, no matter how hard they try, there will be significant discounts in order to move enough product to keep the plant running, and perhaps make a profit. It promises to be a much better car than the VE.

[jaykay]

I remember back to the release of the VE and we had a number of members that were "snapping" pics of mules on the roads prior to release...seems to be a lot different with the VF :(

Come on guys get out there and get some pics of the F Series HSV's......:toetap::yup:

[planetdavo]

Unfortunately Pete, this country is no longer what it once was. Once upon a time people would be proud of a new Holden model coming out, displaying their pride at what this country could achieve, yet these days alleged Holden "fans" are more likely to get on social media and b!tch their little vaginas off over everything "wrong" with it.
Of course without even seeing one in the flesh, or heaven forbid, driving it...:slap:

PS: Hope your Skoda is far more reliable than many other people have experienced with VAG cars in recent years. It's not all roses in that big organisation.

[Aus8]

I tend to agree with above posters. It is increasingly common to be looked down upon or laughed at for buying a new Holden. There seems to be a serious image problem. Even people in my family will say oh "not another Daewoo" when Holden adds are on TV. Times have definitely changed and we as V8 enthusiasts are in the minority. People are preferring to spend slightly more to get a better "perceived" brand of car. I don't know why this has happened but the "Holden means a great deal to Australia" TV adds don't cut it no more.

[jaykay]

Unfortunately Pete, this country is no longer what it once was. Once upon a time people would be proud of a new Holden model coming out, displaying their pride at what this country could achieve, yet these days alleged Holden "fans" are more likely to get on social media and b!tch their little vaginas off over everything "wrong" with it.
Of course without even seeing one in the flesh, or heaven forbid, driving it...:slap:

PS: Hope your Skoda is far more reliable than many other people have experienced with VAG cars in recent years. It's not all roses in that big organisation.

VAG cars.........they must be a **** to drive :lmao:

[IJ.]

VAG cars.........they must be a **** to drive :lmao:

Each one comes with a bucket of Sand in the boot ;)

[Plenty]

/ If you think that the VE is a world class car, then I think you have very little understanding of what that means these days.

In terms of handling and dynamics i would say the VE is a world class car! I definitely agree about interior quality and panel gaps, what is actually quite funny is that quite a selection of said VAG cars happen to make it into the top ten, for the most un-reliable!

The Skoda and the SS you mention are completely different cars in terms of drivetrain and size especially internally, i couldn't see myself looking at a relatively high powered RWD large sub $47,000 car to then choose a near on $60,000 sub 200kw 4WD V6! It makes no sense, i don't go looking at an Audi Q7 then go buy a VW Tiguan. Just sayin.....

[powerd]

The Skoda and the SS you mention are completely different cars in terms of drivetrain and size especially internally, i couldn't see myself looking at a relatively high powered RWD large sub $47,000 car to then choose a near on $60,000 sub 200kw 4WD V6! It makes no sense, i don't go looking at an Audi Q7 then go buy a VW Tiguan. Just sayin.....

Well Plenty, I guess you have never had a proper look or seriously driven a Superb then, particularly a V6 wagon. And then compared it closely to the SSV Sportswagon. Might be worth a try.

The two are quite similar cars and obvious competitors, particularly considering my car requirements. They are about the same size, they are roomy family wagons The Skoda is a bit narrower inside than the Commodore - not an issue as I only need to seat two people in the back for any distance. But the Superb has lots more legroom , as much as a Statesman but is more comfortable with heated seats and better seating etc - remember my basketballer kids and long trips. The boot is larger (not such a big issue) but the flexibility and finish of the rear is hugely better - luggage rails, adjustable solid and flexible barriers, multiple hooks and nets, magnetic bootlight cum rechargeable torch etc etc. Commodore is crude and unfunctional in the rear by comparison. The build quality, materials, equipment, level of thought and finish are worlds apart. An optioned up SSV Sportwagon would still not get near the equipment levels of the Skoda yet at retail is in the same rough price range(55,000-65,000). The Commodore is more powerful and faster accelerating, but the Skoda is quite quick particularly once the speed builds. In the wet, the AWD makes it very quick and all the power is useable without traction loss so it is a much better drive in the wet than the Sportswagon. The Commodore handles better in the dry, though the Skoda is very good and has high traction levels - it is set up more for comfort. It has a much superior gearbox to the Commodore, very fast and smooth - and please don't go on about unreliable DSGs, the wet clutch 6 speeds are proving very reliable. The Skoda is more economical. Its electronic and driver systems are well ahead of the VE, not to mention the interconnectedness of the CANBUS system. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

SO both cars perform similar functions and have their pluses , and there are few larger wagons at around the luxury car tax limit - ones like the Volvo V70 are too dated to consider. Cheaper ones like the Mondeo offer good space but lack sophistication.. The Skoda overall had a lot more pluses than the Commodore. As for reliability, well I have read Euro JD Power surveys for years, talked to owners in Europe etc I suggest you see how highly Skodas rate. I had less problems in 3.5 years and more than 80,000kms in my previous Octavia than I had on the first week of my last SS. 13000kms into the Superb and faultless apart from a loose puddle light - but I think I knocked it. In three years and 130,000kms, my Commodore SS had more problems than all four Japanese cars and a Landrover Discovery(used seriously offroad) had over the previous 9 years and more than 350,000kms. Later VEs may be better, but they still have their faults and I hate that.

Meantime the VF looks like a vast improvement in interior quality and technology. Exterior wise the SS looks good but not sure if I like the Calais so much. If they get the build quality and the reliability up to world standard I would consider buying one for my next car. They need competitive product to survive.

[mrtockley]

Unfortunately Pete, this country is no longer what it once was. Once upon a time people would be proud of a new Holden model coming out, displaying their pride at what this country could achieve, yet these days alleged Holden "fans" are more likely to get on social media and b!tch their little vaginas off over everything "wrong" with it.
Of course without even seeing one in the flesh, or heaven forbid, driving it...:slap:

PS: Hope your Skoda is far more reliable than many other people have experienced with VAG cars in recent years. It's not all roses in that big organisation.

I actually agree with Davo here. It's a bit silly writing it off before the full specs have been released. I for one can say that the interior and look of the finish looks amazing (at least in the V Spec variants shown) and although I'm not a fan of the rear, the over all lines do look very nice. The thing that might hurt sales is that there won't be a diesel on offer and in the time of rising fuel costs, I don't know how well the V8's will sell. The V6's are pretty lackluster and it doesn't appear that power or economy specs have changed. The main issue is that people have so much more to chose from now even since the launch of the VE and coughing up $60k is a lot to ask for a car. People expect and demand excellent build quality and service and companies like Hyundai are offering just that. Things like capped servicing and 5 year warranties are all becoming standard for Jap and Korean car makers and then add up resale value and you have to question local vs imported. Holden don't have the freedom they used to know with global architecture becoming the norm - they are very much told what to build now and it's not necessarily going to be for Australian tastes. I don't know the ins and outs of the price differentiation but it will anger people when they hear that we are giving the Chev SS to the states for 10k less and with more features than our cars. Brand loyalty is all but dead now so I hope that they have done this right. My 2 cents.

Kris

[Red CV8 R]

Well Plenty, I guess you have never had a proper look or seriously driven a Superb then, particularly a V6 wagon. And then compared it closely to the SSV Sportswagon. Might be worth a try.

The two are quite similar cars and obvious competitors, particularly considering my car requirements. They are about the same size, they are roomy family wagons The Skoda is a bit narrower inside than the Commodore - not an issue as I only need to seat two people in the back for any distance. But the Superb has lots more legroom , as much as a Statesman but is more comfortable with heated seats and better seating etc - remember my basketballer kids and long trips. The boot is larger (not such a big issue) but the flexibility and finish of the rear is hugely better - luggage rails, adjustable solid and flexible barriers, multiple hooks and nets, magnetic bootlight cum rechargeable torch etc etc. Commodore is crude and unfunctional in the rear by comparison. The build quality, materials, equipment, level of thought and finish are worlds apart. An optioned up SSV Sportwagon would still not get near the equipment levels of the Skoda yet at retail is in the same rough price range(55,000-65,000). The Commodore is more powerful and faster accelerating, but the Skoda is quite quick particularly once the speed builds. In the wet, the AWD makes it very quick and all the power is useable without traction loss so it is a much better drive in the wet than the Sportswagon. The Commodore handles better in the dry, though the Skoda is very good and has high traction levels - it is set up more for comfort. It has a much superior gearbox to the Commodore, very fast and smooth - and please don't go on about unreliable DSGs, the wet clutch 6 speeds are proving very reliable. The Skoda is more economical. Its electronic and driver systems are well ahead of the VE, not to mention the interconnectedness of the CANBUS system. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

SO both cars perform similar functions and have their pluses , and there are few larger wagons at around the luxury car tax limit - ones like the Volvo V70 are too dated to consider. Cheaper ones like the Mondeo offer good space but lack sophistication.. The Skoda overall had a lot more pluses than the Commodore. As for reliability, well I have read Euro JD Power surveys for years, talked to owners in Europe etc I suggest you see how highly Skodas rate. I had less problems in 3.5 years and more than 80,000kms in my previous Octavia than I had on the first week of my last SS. 13000kms into the Superb and faultless apart from a loose puddle light - but I think I knocked it. In three years and 130,000kms, my Commodore SS had more problems than all four Japanese cars and a Landrover Discovery(used seriously offroad) had over the previous 9 years and more than 350,000kms. Later VEs may be better, but they still have their faults and I hate that.

Meantime the VF looks like a vast improvement in interior quality and technology. Exterior wise the SS looks good but not sure if I like the Calais so much. If they get the build quality and the reliability up to world standard I would consider buying one for my next car. They need competitive product to survive.



Would the Skoda Superb be more of a competitor of the V6 Calais V wagon rather than an SS-V V8?

[mrtockley]

Would the Skoda Superb be more of a competitor of the V6 Calais V wagon rather than an SS-V V8?

The thing that scares me off about anything from VAG is the horrendous servicing costs. That and the DSG's are still shit to drive at low speeds. Well it was when I test drove a polo. Plus to get any decent options you get raped with the 'packs' like comfort pack, sports pack etc. The misses just got a new top spec Hyundai i30 and it's got pretty much everything plus capped price servicing and 5 year warranty. Yes it 'may' not be quite at the build level of the German offering but for the coin you get such a fantastic car with so many features. Keyless entry / start, panoramic roof, heated leather, sat nav on a 7" screen & 3 years of maps, Bluetooth and streaming, electric park brake, Xenons, reverse cam and sensors, auto lights and wipers, great little 6 speed auto and a
Diesel that gets over 700 kays. Holden I think have done a really smart thing by offering a heap of good tech on even the base models.

[C4B]

Have the new VF's all got keyless entry/start?

[mrtockley]

Have the new VF's all got keyless entry/start?

I'm not sure about all models but it is definitely listed as a feature. Once you've used keyless entry and start you'll never want to use a key again.

[C4B]

I'm not sure about all models but it is definitely listed as a feature. Once you've used keyless entry and start you'll never want to use a key again.

I would never buy a car without it. It's the best feature.......

[powerd]

Would the Skoda Superb be more of a competitor of the V6 Calais V wagon rather than an SS-V V8?

Yes, probably, Red CV8R, for most people, but for me it would need to be in V and V8 form (the V6 is pretty ordinary despite the power figure) though I prefer the SSV look and feel.

I agree that VW can be pretty bloodthirsty on equipment and pricing issues. But Skoda equipment levels are quite high and although some options are a bit pricey, my Superb comes with pretty much everything. As for the servicing, my Octavia cost a little over $300 for a 15,000 smaller service and a bit over $400 for a major each 30,000 - reasonable I think and my dealer was very diligent. A DSG service is expensive because of the unique oil and filters required($5-600?) but is only done each 60,000. My Superb will be a bit more because of the AWD and greater complexity. Hardly a horror story and pretty good if you have owned a BM, Merc or Alfa.

The low speed shunt that some DSGs have seems to afflict them seems to very with different engine/DSG combinations and even from one car to the next. If it is not good, it often can be improved with a software update. The V6 is quite good, and my car seems to have almost no shunt at all - in fact I would rate it better than most autos. Reversing updill in tricky situations eg into a drive or parking space just takes a bit of getting used to. But I have driven some small engined DSGs which were not so good, but you probably get used to it.

I agree with you Mr Tockley about how good value the Hyundais are these days - I have helped a couple of friends buy them and they are very happy with their choice. Well equipped and built and the drive experience is improving well too. Would be good to see the V8 Genisis here in the future, preferably with a suspension tune for Australia rather than the sloppy US setup.

Meantime, the VF can't come soon enough - I suspect it will have much more appeal to private buyers than the VE.

[jc_sv8]

I'm sitting on a 10 year old SV8 VY that has been a spectacular vehicle.

I had a replacement gasket seal on the right side of the rear wing and within the three years a driver side B-pillar plastic cover where the top clip snapped.
These were the only warranty items that I had, and were only picked up by the final examination by the Holden dealership in North Ryde, which was good of them.

Other than that, a power steering unit, a rear set of rotors and a single set of tyres, it's been all good.

I get the car services at 10K and apart from wiper blades and headlights ( I run them 24x7 ) that's about it.
So as far as reliable, I'd put it up against any car on the planet. Worst case, I've got a low coolant coming up on the dash which is the result of a cracked overflow bottle that never seems to require refilling. It's being doing that for 6 months and the temp gauge never goes past 2/3. Yes I"ve checked and it doesn't ever completely empty so one day I'll fill it.

So here we are 10 years on and the VF looks like a decent trade, bring it on!

[Wonky]

I've had 5 Commodores in exactly 10 years this month. A VY SV8, 2 VZ SSs, SSV sedan and now the ute. I guess I mustn't be fussy because in total 160,000km the only problems I've had are a) badly hung driver's door on one of the VZs which required it to spend a few hours at a panel beaters under warranty and a broken clip on the driver's seat side plastic trim on both SSVs - very common till they produced an uprated part. Again, each under warranty but only a $70 or so part anyway and a few mins to fix. So (touch wood!!) apart from my own mods which began with catback only on the SV8, increasing with each vehicle till the ute which has an almost endless list, I've not spent a cent on my vehicles apart from normal wear and tear items and services (every 7,500 on VEs).

I stated I must not be fussy but as everyone who has been in my cars will tell you, they run perfectly with no odd noises or clunks. :goodjob: I cannot complain at the Commodore quality at all!! :bow:

[planetdavo]

I stated I must not be fussy but as everyone who has been in my cars will tell you, they run perfectly with no odd noises or clunks. :goodjob: I cannot complain at the Commodore quality at all!! :bow:

Obviously local cars must, by necessity, be developed on lower budgets than global vehicles. It's both a blessing and a curse, as on one side it means a car developed with usually excellent comfort and overall performance for our big country, whereas on the other hand, cost is often saved on some of the finer details, like trim finish.
If people are happy driving around in their imported cars that don't ride very well or are rather noisy on our crap roads, but have nice soft touch plastics- good on you, but if people are happy to sacrifice a bit of nicer trim finish or a slightly less resolution dash screen or whatever for a superbly comfortable cruiser that employees Australians in great numbers- even better.
Most Commodore buyers have excellent runs with their cars, and in most cases, issues are reasonably cheap to fix when compared to imported options. What's so sad these days is just how much "Aussie bashing" has become a sport for elitist bogans desperate to escape their common roots. Sorry to say peeps, but you are still the same person inside, no matter what you spend...

[powerd]

Sorry guys, buty if ypou think the difference between Commodores and the rest of the world is about a few soft touch plastics and noise reduction on coarse chip on coarse chip surfaces, then you have really missed the point. You may not notice them, but the differences are much deeper than that. I don't think Commodres are rubbish to dreive - far from it. But these days there are so many products that far outrip the Commodore in every other way than dynamics and noise on coarse chip surfaces, that you have to ask the question, why have Holden fallen so far behind in a number of ways. And if you thing a VE reppresents quality in new cars, wel, frankly , you need to get out more.

Maybe people are happy to settle for lower qualiity allround engineering and design, but I suggest the sales figures tell a different story.Its not about people being dumb or anything else, i9ts about people vauing wehat they think is important.

Sso if you are happy with the qualuty of your Commodore, that is great. But lots of customers know they can getelsewhere. Bury your head in the sand while Rome burns, to mix metaphors badluy.

[Plenty]

, but I suggest the sales figures tell a different story

What a narrow minded and naive comment, is there even a Euro car in the top ten of sales? Comparing the Commodore to other vehicles being sold in the country, for a near on 7 year old car in the VE it still is right at the top of the list every month.

The declining sales are more a sign of the choice people now have, where they used to by the Commodore ute they now buy a Hilux, BT50, Ranger and Isuzu etc etc.

The market is fragmented and this has had more influence on the sales, not the finer details of automotive manufacturing your suggesting.
By the way wet or dry i reckon the VE SS would absolutely pants your Skoda dynamically, in steering feel and feedback, damping and rebound and well everything short of ride comfort.

The fact that your car cannot compete dynamically with an SS, does that mean that the Skoda is not world class?

[jboy21]

You may not notice them, but the differences are much deeper than that.

Like what? Some examples please. I suppose they could put in another 12 airbags in lieu of actual engineered safety and save a few bucks...

BTW learn how to spell.

[vessloveit]

Sorry guys, buty if ypou think the difference between Commodores and the rest of the world is about a few soft touch plastics and noise reduction on coarse chip on coarse chip surfaces, then you have really missed the point. You may not notice them, but the differences are much deeper than that. I don't think Commodres are rubbish to dreive - far from it. But these days there are so many products that far outrip the Commodore in every other way than dynamics and noise on coarse chip surfaces, that you have to ask the question, why have Holden fallen so far behind in a number of ways. And if you thing a VE reppresents quality in new cars, wel, frankly , you need to get out more.

Maybe people are happy to settle for lower qualiity allround engineering and design, but I suggest the sales figures tell a different story.Its not about people being dumb or anything else, i9ts about people vauing wehat they think is important.

Sso if you are happy with the qualuty of your Commodore, that is great. But lots of customers know they can getelsewhere. Bury your head in the sand while Rome burns, to mix metaphors badluy.

Seriously I can not comprehend this post????????????????

[C4B]

Seriously I can not comprehend this post????????????????

If you drive a lot of other new cars on offer it's very simple to understand.

[planetdavo]

If you drive a lot of other new cars on offer it's very simple to understand.

Really?
Depends what you actually WANT in a new car.
Drive most DSG equipped cars in city conditions and they are sh!t. Technology is "good" my @rse.
Drive many imported cars on crap Australian roads and they aren't comfortable long distance cruisers. Drive most imported cars on coarse chip Australian roads and they are poorly insulated, noise transmitting annoyances.
How many imports have sh!t radio reception just out of town? Apologies to the Apple generation, but most people still actually listen to the in-car radio.
Send most imported cars into a workshop for repairs and see how quickly your wallet empties compared to local cars.
Compare the real world fuel economy of much larger Aussie made cars to the much smaller, less comfortable imported cars, and convince me it's actually huge (particularly the newer generation of supposedly more efficient small capacity turbo'd petrol ones). Diesels? Pffft, for all the extra initial outlay, how many people ever recoup their costs, not to mention the constant laggy takeoff's and need to do DPF burnoff driving cycles in city driven cars for many owners. Diesel economy in traffic isn't that much better than petrol cars.
So yes, if you compare them by the brochure or a showroom sit, it is very simple to understand why Australian cars are often "inferior" to imports...

[planetdavo]

Sorry guys, buty if ypou think the difference between Commodores and the rest of the world is about a few soft touch plastics and noise reduction on coarse chip on coarse chip surfaces, then you have really missed the point. You may not notice them, but the differences are much deeper than that. I don't think Commodres are rubbish to dreive - far from it. But these days there are so many products that far outrip the Commodore in every other way than dynamics and noise on coarse chip surfaces, that you have to ask the question, why have Holden fallen so far behind in a number of ways. And if you thing a VE reppresents quality in new cars, wel, frankly , you need to get out more.

Maybe people are happy to settle for lower qualiity allround engineering and design, but I suggest the sales figures tell a different story.Its not about people being dumb or anything else, i9ts about people vauing wehat they think is important.

Sso if you are happy with the qualuty of your Commodore, that is great. But lots of customers know they can getelsewhere. Bury your head in the sand while Rome burns, to mix metaphors badluy.

Dude, you need to re-think what the hell you've written.
Besides the muddle of spelling errors, you have so many faults in your claims.
You claim "Maybe people are happy to settle for lower qualiity allround engineering and design". The engineering and design of VE is WORLD CLASS. It's been exported to many parts of the world, and VF will continue that. The GFC prematurely killed off most exports, NOT the engineering and design of the car.
So you claim that VE lacking engineering effort, yet defend noisy imports on our common course chip roads as having "superior" engineering? As you serious?!!! Why do they have so much trouble "engineering" superior noise reduction into their cars?
Again with engineering. I'll use VAG Group as an example (VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat). Why does that group suffer from so many DSG issues? So many engine failures and oil burning issues? So many expensive diesel injector failures? So many air conditioning failures? Most seem to happen just outside warranty...
Do I need to go on?
SO, I get back to my earlier point.
Having said just above why Commodore is still on the pace in many ways, and imports also aren't perfect, tell me WHY imports are so superior?
I mean, Holden introduced tighter body shut lines than nearly every import 7 years ago, and are STILL tighter than most of them. Tight shut lines needs strong design and manufacturing capabilities to come out in the final product, as most manufacturers wont go this tight as any variances are more easily noticeable.
If it's NOT down to saving a few dollars on trim finish, or the resolution of the in-dash screen, or what's included in the standard cost of the car, or whatever, then what is it?
Is Holden not using modern GM drivelines? Seems they are. Direct injection V6's, current spec V8's, 6 speed auto's, diffs from the highly respected ZF. Same with the steering rack.
Is it because they hadn't put radar adaptive cruise in their 40K large car? Most expected stuff appears to be in the upper luxury cars- with a small number of exceptions. Look at what you get for your 50 something K though in such a large and comfortable car that's surprisingly light on fuel for something so big.
Do they "need" a turbo 4 cyl so favoured by European manufacturers? Go have a look at Falcon sales with such an engine.
Still looking for ingrained engineering "problems", besides obviously plastic looking trim and lower resolution iQ screens.
The large car used to be the default choice for many buyers, private and fleet. Private buyers brought up on a diet of family Holden's and Ford's, combined with Aussie pride, bought them in huge numbers. Fleets ususally dictated these cars as the main options.
Now, we have around 60 DIFFERENT BRANDS competing for just ONE million sales. Most Aussies don't give a toss about Aussie Made anymore- someone elses problem. Large cars aren't "cool" anymore. SUV's are "cool". Small cars have perceived much lower running costs (reality often isn't close to the perceived savings). Crew cab tradie utes have exploded into the "family car" domain, even though most are still pretty rough around the edges.
I'm sure I could come up with more.

[Plenty]

Really?
Depends what you actually WANT in a new car.
Drive most DSG equipped cars in city conditions and they are sh!t. Technology is "good" my @rse.
Drive many imported cars on crap Australian roads and they aren't comfortable long distance cruisers. Drive most imported cars on coarse chip Australian roads and they are poorly insulated, noise transmitting annoyances.
How many imports have sh!t radio reception just out of town? Apologies to the Apple generation, but most people still actually listen to the in-car radio.
Send most imported cars into a workshop for repairs and see how quickly your wallet empties compared to local cars.
Compare the real world fuel economy of much larger Aussie made cars to the much smaller, less comfortable imported cars, and convince me it's actually huge (particularly the newer generation of supposedly more efficient small capacity turbo'd petrol ones). Diesels? Pffft, for all the extra initial outlay, how many people ever recoup their costs, not to mention the constant laggy takeoff's and need to do DPF burnoff driving cycles in city driven cars for many owners. Diesel economy in traffic isn't that much better than petrol cars.
So yes, if you compare them by the brochure or a showroom sit, it is very simple to understand why Australian cars are often "inferior" to imports...

I reckon I have to actually agree with you for once Davo.

[planetdavo]

I reckon I have to actually agree with you for once Davo.

I reckon you've actually agreed with me once before Plenty, so we're on a bit of a roll now...:lmao:

[kevin101]

Really?
Depends what you actually WANT in a new car.
Drive most DSG equipped cars in city conditions and they are sh!t. Technology is "good" my @rse.
Drive many imported cars on crap Australian roads and they aren't comfortable long distance cruisers. Drive most imported cars on coarse chip Australian roads and they are poorly insulated, noise transmitting annoyances.
How many imports have sh!t radio reception just out of town? Apologies to the Apple generation, but most people still actually listen to the in-car radio.
Send most imported cars into a workshop for repairs and see how quickly your wallet empties compared to local cars.
Compare the real world fuel economy of much larger Aussie made cars to the much smaller, less comfortable imported cars, and convince me it's actually huge (particularly the newer generation of supposedly more efficient small capacity turbo'd petrol ones). Diesels? Pffft, for all the extra initial outlay, how many people ever recoup their costs, not to mention the constant laggy takeoff's and need to do DPF burnoff driving cycles in city driven cars for many owners. Diesel economy in traffic isn't that much better than petrol cars.
So yes, if you compare them by the brochure or a showroom sit, it is very simple to understand why Australian cars are often "inferior" to imports...

+1

Comparing different cars can't simply be done by saying this one has this and that one doesn't etc etc.

[CLUBRED]

Got to agree with PD also, have been through a similar exercise helping a family member buy a new car and i have to say I'm far from impressed with the current crop of the popular sellers. Eventually she settled on an import (because it was cuter, waste of my time) but even the sales guy scoffed when she said she'd keep it for 8-10 years. I drove the demo and hated it, and drove the actual delivered car a few times now and still hate it - yet everyones buying them, and I really don't know why. And if there's no 15 year old commodores left to buy, what are all the kiwi's moving here going to drive.

[csv rulz]

Got to agree with PD also, have been through a similar exercise helping a family member buy a new car and i have to say I'm far from impressed with the current crop of the popular sellers. Eventually she settled on an import (because it was cuter, waste of my time) but even the sales guy scoffed when she said she'd keep it for 8-10 years. I drove the demo and hated it, and drove the actual delivered car a few times now and still hate it - yet everyones buying them, and I really don't know why. And if there's no 15 year old commodores left to buy, what are all the kiwi's moving here going to drive.

Out of interest what did she buy

[CLUBRED]

Out of interest what did she buy

i30 diesel. I didn't like the steering wheel, and the clutch pedal clicks everytime you used it (on both cars), rear vision was iffy, and it still had the gear throw of a late 90's excel - and my pet hate, not really a draw back I guess was, it tells you what gear to be in, if you want a car to tell you that buy an auto.

[macca_779]

i30 diesel. I didn't like the steering wheel, and the clutch pedal clicks everytime you used it (on both cars), rear vision was iffy, and it still had the gear throw of a late 90's excel - and my pet hate, not really a draw back I guess was, it tells you what gear to be in, if you want a car to tell you that buy an auto.

A few cars I've driven do that. It's actually not a bad feature from an economy perspective as a lot of drivers don't accurately gauge effective gear selection

Then again a lot of auto's don't gauge accurate gear selection well either

[planetdavo]

i30 diesel. I didn't like the steering wheel, and the clutch pedal clicks everytime you used it (on both cars), rear vision was iffy, and it still had the gear throw of a late 90's excel - and my pet hate, not really a draw back I guess was, it tells you what gear to be in, if you want a car to tell you that buy an auto.

Mate, so many drivers have either been dumbed down so much these days or are so damn selfish they can't even find the indicator stalk anymore, or stop before the white line at traffic lights- even when they can see pedestrians ready to cross. I, like many, see this stuff on a daily basis. I have no doubt at all that some drivers NEED this indication to know what to do next.

[csv rulz]

i30 diesel. I didn't like the steering wheel, and the clutch pedal clicks everytime you used it (on both cars), rear vision was iffy, and it still had the gear throw of a late 90's excel - and my pet hate, not really a draw back I guess was, it tells you what gear to be in, if you want a car to tell you that buy an auto.

Haven't driven a new I30 so can't really comment, they look alright and interior seems nicer than a lot on the market.

We too bought a car that a lot of people didn't agree with and bagged but after test driving close to 20 cars it was the best all round car for what we wanted. Since buying it everyone that has driven it has been surprisingly impressed with its drive, quality and features

[mrtockley]

Dude, you need to re-think what the hell you've written.
Besides the muddle of spelling errors, you have so many faults in your claims.
You claim "Maybe people are happy to settle for lower qualiity allround engineering and design". The engineering and design of VE is WORLD CLASS. It's been exported to many parts of the world, and VF will continue that. The GFC prematurely killed off most exports, NOT the engineering and design of the car.
So you claim that VE lacking engineering effort, yet defend noisy imports on our common course chip roads as having "superior" engineering? As you serious?!!! Why do they have so much trouble "engineering" superior noise reduction into their cars?
Again with engineering. I'll use VAG Group as an example (VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat). Why does that group suffer from so many DSG issues? So many engine failures and oil burning issues? So many expensive diesel injector failures? So many air conditioning failures? Most seem to happen just outside warranty...
Do I need to go on?
SO, I get back to my earlier point.
Having said just above why Commodore is still on the pace in many ways, and imports also aren't perfect, tell me WHY imports are so superior?
I mean, Holden introduced tighter body shut lines than nearly every import 7 years ago, and are STILL tighter than most of them. Tight shut lines needs strong design and manufacturing capabilities to come out in the final product, as most manufacturers wont go this tight as any variances are more easily noticeable.
If it's NOT down to saving a few dollars on trim finish, or the resolution of the in-dash screen, or what's included in the standard cost of the car, or whatever, then what is it?
Is Holden not using modern GM drivelines? Seems they are. Direct injection V6's, current spec V8's, 6 speed auto's, diffs from the highly respected ZF. Same with the steering rack.
Is it because they hadn't put radar adaptive cruise in their 40K large car? Most expected stuff appears to be in the upper luxury cars- with a small number of exceptions. Look at what you get for your 50 something K though in such a large and comfortable car that's surprisingly light on fuel for something so big.
Do they "need" a turbo 4 cyl so favoured by European manufacturers? Go have a look at Falcon sales with such an engine.
Still looking for ingrained engineering "problems", besides obviously plastic looking trim and lower resolution iQ screens.
The large car used to be the default choice for many buyers, private and fleet. Private buyers brought up on a diet of family Holden's and Ford's, combined with Aussie pride, bought them in huge numbers. Fleets ususally dictated these cars as the main options.
Now, we have around 60 DIFFERENT BRANDS competing for just ONE million sales. Most Aussies don't give a toss about Aussie Made anymore- someone elses problem. Large cars aren't "cool" anymore. SUV's are "cool". Small cars have perceived much lower running costs (reality often isn't close to the perceived savings). Crew cab tradie utes have exploded into the "family car" domain, even though most are still pretty rough around the edges.
I'm sure I could come up with more.

Again I agree with a lot of this Davo but differ on a few. Yes the VE is a great fantastic big comfortable Aussie cruiser. It can tow and fit big Aussies in it in relative comfort. It was benchmarked against the (at the time) BMW 5 series. It kicked a big goal for Aussie motoring and ticked a lot of boxes back in 06. That was then and a lot of things have changed. The VF isn't a new car by any means and adding new tech (that has been a long time coming anyway) has IMO only allowed them to just catch up to where a lot of other manufacturers have been for years. There are still a lot of weak points due to the apron strings that Holden are tied to being GM. The transmissions aren't world class and either are the engines. Because we now have to follow global (read American) motoring trends, Holden can only ever be as good as what GM let's them and we aren't high on their 'give a ****' list. The engineering simply can't be called world class when they don't back it up with a good warranty. More and more companies are offering 5 year warranty and capped servicing and that shows people confidence in the product. Like it or not (and I know you don't) Hyundai in the next 10 years will be one of the biggest car makers in the world. The fact that more and more people are switching to Diesel tells me 2 things - it's now cheaper than petrol at the pump (it was 1.47 yesterday vs 1.50 something for 91) and the 'gap' between petrol and diesel price at the dealer is minimizing because its no longer a niche market. Even the servos have moved the pumps and taken it away from the dirty corner of the servo. I for one am happy to trade 6 or 7 liters per 100 as opposed to 15 something from my V8 in stop start traffic. Which is exactly why I'm looking at a new Sante Fe. 420 Nm from a tiny variable direct injection diesel that costs less to service than my V8, does nearly 1000 kays off a tank and can fit 7 people, with all the bells and whistles for less than an SSV and peace of mind of a 5 year warranty. My SSV has been a great car, but it was strange how many things started to go wrong after the 3 to 4 year mark. Food for thought. Sorry for the long post!

[vessloveit]

If you drive a lot of other new cars on offer it's very simple to understand.

My comment was about the spelling etc not the gist of the post.

[mrtockley]

When did the edit feature disappear ?? Edit - the Sante Fe has 436Nm. The CX-5 has 420.

[jc_sv8]

Flame suit on...

I'm actually looking at the new Mazda6. Bigger all round, lots of tech (GT model, I wouldn't waste the extra money on the Atenza).
And gee what a good looking vehicle in the flesh, with those new front guards hinting at the RX8 in a sedan guise.

Otherwise the VF-SS will be my new car this year...

[mrtockley]

Flame suit on...

I'm actually looking at the new Mazda6. Bigger all round, lots of tech (GT model, I wouldn't waste the extra money on the Atenza).
And gee what a good looking vehicle in the flesh, with those new front guards hinting at the RX8 in a sedan guise.

Otherwise the VF-SS will be my new car this year...

Test drove the new 6 the other day. Nearly as big as a Falcon but only
weighs 1500 odd. Beautiful gearbox with paddles and a heap of awesome tech and 5.7 liters per hundred. It has it's downside too but overall it is a beautiful car. One main negative is the 10,000 Kay service interval. Wtf?

[Alex(AUS)]

Obviously local cars must, by necessity, be developed on lower budgets than global vehicles.

Funny that ... considering the price and features being sold in US VF vs what we are offered here ie ... less for much more ... There is plenty of "meat" in the margins for development and plenty of scope to sell the (Australian developed and funded) VF in Australia for much less ... That would make a much greater value proposition for Aussies with great comfort and overall performance ...

Alex

[Speedy Gonzales]

Flame suit on...

I'm actually looking at the new Mazda6. Bigger all round, lots of tech (GT model, I wouldn't waste the extra money on the Atenza).
And gee what a good looking vehicle in the flesh, with those new front guards hinting at the RX8 in a sedan guise.

Otherwise the VF-SS will be my new car this year...

It is a very nice looking car, saw one drive by the other day and wow, it stands out in that red, almost Dodge Charger like from front with the open grill, wouldnt surprise me if it won family car segment for the year

[Plenty]

Flame suit on...

I'm actually looking at the new Mazda6. Bigger all round, lots of tech (GT model, I wouldn't waste the extra money on the Atenza).
And gee what a good looking vehicle in the flesh, with those new front guards hinting at the RX8 in a sedan guise.

Otherwise the VF-SS will be my new car this year...

Huh? I'll have what your smoking!

Whilst external measurements are "close", internally there is a vast difference in size in the the VE/F favour.

How can one shop for a sloooooow Mazda 6 and then say if not that it'll be a high powered V8? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

[Plenty]

Funny that ... considering the price and features being sold in US VF vs what we are offered here ie ... less for much more ... There is plenty of "meat" in the margins for development and plenty of scope to sell the (Australian developed and funded) VF in Australia for much less ... That would make a much greater value proposition for Aussies with great comfort and overall performance ...

Alex

I don't believe the Chev SS pricing has actually been released yet, it was all just speculation from the media.

[mrtockley]

I don't believe the Chev SS pricing has actually been released yet, it was all just speculation from the media.

There's been a hell of a lot of speculation though. The fact is, even if the price was on parity, the Chevy SS gets a 6.2, Brembos, paddles for the gear box and other tech and features that we don't. Which is basically saying that us dumb Aussies can get the shit version and we'll happily pay more for less.

[C4B]

There's been a hell of a lot of speculation though. The fact is, even if the price was on parity, the Chevy SS gets a 6.2, Brembos, paddles for the gear box and other tech and features that we don't. Which is basically saying that us dumb Aussies can get the shit version and we'll happily pay more for less.

You look after your priority clients first and foremost. I guess when final pricing is released we'll know who that is ;-)

[Plenty]

You look after your priority clients first and foremost. I guess when final pricing is released we'll know who that is ;-)

GM will always look after home first, USA that is!

It may even be a case of GM stipulating price for Chev SS and Holden have no say in the matter, who knows.

[jc_sv8]

Huh? I'll have what your smoking!

How can one shop for a sloooooow Mazda 6 and then say if not that it'll be a high powered V8? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

That would be my jekyll n' hyde coming out. Seriously though it's the only car I have considered other than the VF.
I've also got a project I'm working on that will take care of my V8 urge... :yup:

[C4B]

It may even be a case of GM stipulating price for Chev SS and Holden have no say in the matter, who knows.

This would almost certainly be the case. GM would work out a price point and specification level - if Holden could meet both requirements they would get the green light.

[Alex(AUS)]

I don't believe the Chev SS pricing has actually been released yet, it was all just speculation from the media.

It sounds a lot like kicking the can down the road ... the problem will come if it is not addressed ... with the lower spec and stronger AUS dollar, AUS VF SS list price must be significantly cheaper than US VF SS list price.

Alex

[Alex(AUS)]

This would almost certainly be the case. GM would work out a price point and specification level - if Holden could meet both requirements they would get the green light.

Even if it is a loss making activity for Australians? Or, only if it makes business sense?

Alex

[powerd]

Guys, sorry about the spelling. If you looked at my earlier posts you would know I can spell. Always been a spelling nerd. My excuse for the typos is that I had just completed a very hard and fast 500km motorbike ride in the heat in the Snowys - if you know the Tawonga to Bright road or the Snowys generally you will understand my state. And I had consumed some medicinal amber transfusions to settle the nerves. Plus I was typing on my little netbook in the semi-dark. But thanks for the advice!

I refer you to MrTockley's post above - he stated a number of good reasons why the Commodore doesn't measure up. None of what he said is news to many, including motoring journalists, industry people and car people who aren't one-eyed Holden enthusiasts. And I have had similar conversations with a development engineer from Holden. No news to him either. Holden do a great job for the money they have and the budget and technology available. But that is the problem, not the dedication or talent of the people.

And why do imports mostly transmit more noise on our coarse chip surfaces? Because other countries don't use that coarse surface, and for the very small numbers they sell here(relative to elsewhere), why invest a large amount of money to do something which may cause problems to other parts of your setup. My car, like most medium/large imports is very quiet on other surfaces. not bad though on coarse chip just not as good as the Aussies. And handles extremely well on rough country roads. In January, I did a 3000km trip on mostly poor rural roads, including much the same route that Peter Robinson drove a V8 Commodore Adelaide-Sydney, and at similar speeds - 140-160km/h, effortlessly. My car would have been equally stable and easy to drive at speed, supple, though more suspension travel for high speeds on our crap roads would help. The Commodore's ride would have a bit less impact harshness, I think. Small differences. But both very good. But my fuel consumption was somewhat less than his for the same speeds. And the interior, equipment, audio, legroom etc etc are streets ahead. Read the story in the latest? Wheels - a good read as always from Robbo.

[C4B]

Even if it is a loss making activity for Australians? Or, only if it makes business sense?

Alex

If Holden could meet both. If they couldn't (ie: no profit margin) deal dead...

[mac06]

Maybe I'm just reading between the lines, or hoping, but the Cruze just got a price reduction to be more competitive. Could that mean we'll also see a "relative" price reduction on the VF, bearing in mind the extras the VF gets over the VE? The VE has paid for itself and although there have been development costs for the VF they haven't been as high as the VE. Perhaps there will be a pleasant surprise when the pricing is released.

[jaykay]

Show us an example of a new model Commodore being priced cheaper than its predecessor....

[falcom]

Maybe I'm just reading between the lines, or hoping, but the Cruze just got a price reduction to be more competitive. Could that mean we'll also see a "relative" price reduction on the VF, bearing in mind the extras the VF gets over the VE? The VE has paid for itself and although there have been development costs for the VF they haven't been as high as the VE. Perhaps there will be a pleasant surprise when the pricing is released.

You have to remember that the Commodore is selling well below RRP whereas the Cruze isn't.

A SV6 has a RRP of approx $42,700 plus on roads but is selling for about $36k drive away. So even if Holden dropped the price of the VF SV6 to $39,990 plus on roads it will not be sold any cheaper than a VE. The only good it will do is for marketing where Holden can say they have dropped the price by $3k when realistically they haven't.

[CLUBRED]

If Commodore was selling like hot cakes I doubt the RRP v actual would be so wide either. As a buyer getting a 50k car for 40 seems like a great deal, getting a 45k car for 40 doesn't seem so much.

Problem is by time VF is released to public, the hype will be gone - other manufacturers have had enough time to prepare a price assault, they have their work cut out for them.

[sjhugh]

I think the new Commodore looks alright and it’s good to see Holden heading in the right direction tech wise and fingers crossed it sells well in the US and keeps the RWD V8 alive for us to enjoy.
Still I don’t understand why they don’t go all out with the local product and offer the same spec as the USA bound vehicles. It would show loyalty towards the home market who by purchasing the vehicles for all these years have made it possible for the VF to even exist.

I’ve not had one second in 35years where I haven’t had at least 1 Holden V8 living in my driveway, yet these days if Holden didn’t produce a V8 I wouldn’t give a Commodore a second glance.
There is such a variety of cars available now, it’s no wonder Aussies are looking for vehicles that match their needs better. And why wouldn’t they, there is so much on offer.
It’s a fact of life the fanboys need to fathom, if today’s Aussies don’t need a V8, they possibly don’t need a Commodore.

.

[C4B]

I think the new Commodore looks alright and it’s good to see Holden heading in the right direction tech wise and fingers crossed it sells well in the US and keeps the RWD V8 alive for us to enjoy.
Still I don’t understand why they don’t go all out with the local product and offer the same spec as the USA bound vehicles. It would show loyalty towards the home market who by purchasing the vehicles for all these years have made it possible for the VF to even exist.

I’ve not had one second in 35years where I haven’t had at least 1 Holden V8 living in my driveway, yet these days if Holden didn’t produce a V8 I wouldn’t give a Commodore a second glance.
There is such a variety of cars available now, it’s no wonder Aussies are looking for vehicles that match their needs better. And why wouldn’t they, there is so much on offer.
It’s a fact of life the fanboys need to fathom, if today’s Aussies don’t need a V8, they possibly don’t need a Commodore.

.


Like you, I have continually owned at least 1 V8 Holden for the past 16 years (and at times have owned 2 simultaneously). When I was growing up, a Commodore was an aspirational vehicle (yes even a 6 cylinder), but it's now 2013 and kids have Subarus and Mazdas and Nissans on their wish list.

It sucks, but that's just the way it is.....

[Drizt]

yet these days if Holden didn’t produce a V8 I wouldn’t give a Commodore a second glance.

This is so very true. As a package the Holden VE / V8 is fantastic. The V6's don't interest me at all any more.

[mac06]

There has never been a new Commodore priced lower than it's predecessor, but in the past the Commodore has sold well. Now the playing field has changed and Holden need to do something to help flagging sales. The new features of the VF will certainly help, perhaps a lower RRP will help even more.

I realise that a $50k Commodore for $40k sounds better than a $45k for $40k, but that just tells me that either the RRP was too high to start with or the manufacturer is hurting with lower sales. Most people will just use the RRP as a starting point. If that starting point fits their budget then they are more likey to go into a dealer to have a look. The motoring mags always use the RRP in their comparisons as advertised specials are not always around. In that sense a lower RRP will be better than a high RRP with big bonuses.

Anyway this is pure speculation, time will tell.

[jaykay]

Which VF model will you be driving Andrew ? :stick:

[mac06]

Probably the SV6 again John. I'm not much of a car tart. :hide:

[Wonky]

.......yet these days if Holden didn’t produce a V8 I wouldn’t give a Commodore a second glance.

:yup: Me too!!

[Jonesy40]

If Commodore was selling like hot cakes I doubt the RRP v actual would be so wide either. As a buyer getting a 50k car for 40 seems like a great deal, getting a 45k car for 40 doesn't seem so much.

Problem is by time VF is released to public, the hype will be gone - other manufacturers have had enough time to prepare a price assault, they have their work cut out for them.

i think this may be a issue of holden there was a buzz surrounding the launch and now nothing. i know the drip feed of information is suppose to keep everyone interested until they come on sale but i think they have made a mistake buy launching the car so long before the sales release (yes i know they had to do this for the us market).

if i could buy a v8 sedan for under 50k from another make i would probably be driving it already. but i cant so i will wait for the release of the vf and hope it is worth the wait.

[powerd]

:yup: Me too!!

Fair enough. But that is why the Commodore is starting to really struggle. The mainstream and fleets who, in the past, would buy a family six, have gone elsewhere in droves because, as others have noted, there is so much more competition and choices. Leaving the die-hards to buy V8s or maybe SV6, plus a modest proportion of private buyers who find a Commodore still suits their needs or can't be bothered changing. Note that a sizeable percentage of the much reduced sales are V8s. Regardless of whether the Commodore is still in the top 5, its total number of units sold is probably becoming unprofitable against vehicles produced and sold in very large numbers globally.

But the VF looks like a huge improvement - the interior looks very attractive to me in the photos and big leap in the obvious tech may be enough to lift the private (read profitable) sales and help it survive. A better gearbox and V6 would help further, and quality needs to lift. Anyway, many buyers of ordinary cars are not that discerning about sophisticated engineering or fine quality, but judge cars on looks, perceived value, showroom appeal and so on. Or even colour or what the neighbours will think. Any car salesman will tell you enthusiasts are few except when dealing with cars like HSVs etc.

I hope their plans for the VF work.

[macca_779]

This is so very true. As a package the Holden VE / V8 is fantastic. The V6's don't interest me at all any more.

I think that would be the overall opinion of this forum too. Frankly the V8 is the only reason I ever bought commodores.

[jaykay]

I think that would be the overall opinion of this forum too. Frankly the V8 is the only reason I ever bought commodores.

You remember the 4cyl Commodore days ? :spew:

[C4B]

You remember the 4cyl Commodore days ? :spew:

Ah the good old VB's.

[korrupt]

Ah the good old VB's.

You mean VC's, right

[C4B]

You mean VC's, right

Yep.... Doh!

[IJ.]

"MissFire 4"....

[jc_sv8]

Should have been the VD :lol:

[jc_sv8]

Coz no one wanted it!

[C4B]

Even more exclusive than 6 cylinder HSV's.

[Smitty]

Should have been the VD :lol:

there are already VDs out there!



a number of VCs got mis-stamped ( a mate has one)

[Smitty]

Even more exclusive than 6 cylinder HSV's.

what about the hot 4 cyl ones...???

like the Astra? :lol:

[Drizt]

Hmm, wonder if HSV regret those pearlers ?

[mrtockley]

One has to pose the question - does Australia want / need a rear drive V8 anymore? Where else now can you even buy a rear drive V8 that doesn't cost north of 100k? Even if it is a forced evolution, it is what it is and what happens to Commodore when it eventually becomes fwd?

[Drizt]

One has to pose the question - does Australia want / need a rear drive V8 anymore? Where else now can you even buy a rear drive V8 that doesn't cost north of 100k? Even if it is a forced evolution, it is what it is and what happens to Commodore when it eventually becomes fwd?

No one really 'needs' any car capable of more than getting your from point A to B. Not really the right question (no offence).

The real question is would anyone (or enough people) buy a V8 rear wheel drive car? Given the number of people on this forum I would say yes. Not many here would bother with a V6 commodore.

[powerd]

You remember the 4cyl Commodore days ? :spew:

I do. But the smaller body and a 4 cylinder Commodore may not have been a complete mistake for the market of the time. The execution, not the idea, was the problem. Part of the failure was that the 4 cyl engine was a dud - nothing more than an asthmatic Red motor with two cylinders chopped off - the Starfire, neither a Star nor with any Fire! Not good enough when Japanese cars etc had much more efficient engines. Remember this was the time of the Oil Crisis with rocketing prices and the real fear that oil would run out. But the Commodore four often got worse economy than the six and that was pretty bad anyway, and the four was even more of a slug. I nearly bought a VB Commodore 2850, the smaller engined 6 in the first model that wouldn't pull a sailor off your sister! Holden was trying to meet the challenge, and had a good car - a revelation to drive by Aussie larger car standards - but the engines were not up to the task of good performance with the much needed economy. The V8 had decent performance but spoilt the balance with its weight in front, and the economy of the 308 was terrible unless you had the very tall diff which killed the performance.

I am so glad the good old days are gone.

[powerd]

there are already VDs out there!



a number of VCs got mis-stamped ( a mate has one)

Yes, I had heard that Miss Stamp, my grade 6 teacher, had got VD in the back of a Commodore. We must have grown up in the same suburb, Smitty! :)

[Party Pete]

Actually plenty of people are making rear wheel drive V8s now and not only BMW and Mercedes including Chrysler, Hyundai, Infinity and Lexus. To me, the trick that the Germans have got right is that they make rear wheel drive cars capable of taking a V8 for those who want them but also put in economical diesel engines for those who care more about economy. Unfortunately the US market has a thing against diesels which flows onto their Australian arms including Holden and Ford. A 3 litre 6 cylinder engine would be fantastic in the Commodore and would take it from a fuel guzzler to more economical than a petrol Mazda 6 in real world driving.

Having said that above, the reason why I am currently driving a second hand BMW 550i and not something like a VE Senator is that the interior that Holden chose to fit to the VE was way below par for a car of its price and engineering standards. It always seemed to me that Holden went to the trouble designing their most ambitious car ever in the VE and then decided to penny pinch on the interior to save some money. The effect was they ruined what should have been a great car. Hopefully the VF will redress this and this model can finish off on a high. Even better, hopefully the all new model post 2016 is a rear drive model with common architecture to other world cars rather than being an Australian Malibu.

[C4B]

A 3L diesel would have been nice. Large car without the large car fuel economy.

[macca_779]

Nothing wrong with a good 4cyl. The Eco boost in the falcon is extremely under rated. Willall has done a bit of work on one and tune only it apparently goes like a stock xr6-t. Can't get a tune only sv6 going like that let alone the thrashy 3.0l. So perhaps holden should look into smaller capacity turbo charged solutions

[Party Pete]

The problem with the 4 cylinder Falcon is like all small petrol turbo motors in heavy cars they only produce good fuel economy on paper in the government tests. Great for satisfy US CAFE rules but not much benefit for the owner. At least diesels really do produce the economy in a heavy car. Throw in V8 torque (or better in many cases) and the turbo diesels start to make a pretty good case for themselves. If only they could make them sound like a good V8!

[mrtockley]

Nothing wrong with a good 4cyl. The Eco boost in the falcon is extremely under rated. Willall has done a bit of work on one and tune only it apparently goes like a stock xr6-t. Can't get a tune only sv6 going like that let alone the thrashy 3.0l. So perhaps holden should look into smaller capacity turbo charged solutions

On a completely different note, is Martin still around? I sent him a PM and emailed Willall about the tuning they did a while ago for the i30 and haven't heard back from either. Not meaning to hijack but I haven't been on the forum for a while.

[powerd]

The problem with the 4 cylinder Falcon is like all small petrol turbo motors in heavy cars they only produce good fuel economy on paper in the government tests. Great for satisfy US CAFE rules but not much benefit for the owner. At least diesels really do produce the economy in a heavy car. Throw in V8 torque (or better in many cases) and the turbo diesels start to make a pretty good case for themselves. If only they could make them sound like a good V8!

Party Pete - I disagree with you. Read the reviews where they have compared the Ecoboost to its 6 cyclinder brothers and the Commodore six in real world driving. Ask owners what their actual consumption is. Yes, few owners will replicate the official figures because they are done in a laboratory under easier conditions. But that applies to any vehicle, be it a Toyota V8 Landcruiser, a Commodore V8 or an Ecoboost Falcon. But the Falcon does provide very good real world consumption, noticeably better than the 6 and performance is much the same. Check out the torque figure, including how low it hits max torque(2000rpm) and then holds it over a wide band. That is what makes a car economical and great to drive everyday. And it handles and steers better than the bigger engines. I think Wheels even got it to 100kmh in under 7 seconds. And it was the 3.0 Commodore that did poorly economy wise in many conditions, and often badly against claimed figures.

Having owned a modern turbo 2.0 four, I know what they are capable of. Brilliant.

As for diesels.......The head of VW, who have some very good diesels which sell well, even said that he believed turbo diesels in cars(not so much commercials and 4WDs) had a limited future. The combination of tightening emissions (diesels are poor on NOx and particulates), the poorer overall driving experience, overall costs of ownership and the rapidly improving turbo petrols were leading to a decline in diesel sales. And the US market doesn't like diesels. He pointed out that some of their turbo petrols were now virtually as economical as diesels, drove better and cost less to service.

And the head of Ford Australia, around the time they introduced the Territory diesel, said they were introducing it because their research showed it would sell well - and it has. What he didn't admit was that it would help keep the Territory alive, so it needed it. And they got the 2.7 cheap because Landrover/Jaguar were making it redundant as it was dated. But he also pointed out that the research showed the extra costs would not be recouped by the great majority of the buyers, and the petrol was a nicer drive. He didn't really understand why buyers wanted it.

Holden could call on VM Motori for an excellent 3.0 turbo-diesel as in the Jeep Grand Cherokee. But it would be expensive and still sell in modest numbers, almost certainly losing them money. Why would they do it?

[mattnsw]

Holden dropped the ball a long time ago. It’s the old IBM syndrome where a market leader has such a strong following it forgets how to compete with the new players believing its loyal customers will never forsake it. It reminds me of the old folks who once would say if the Government said so then it must be true. The western world is far more savvy these days and hype means little.

I do see the Commodore getting a flurry on when it finally hits the market, there will be punters who will want the new thing but after that the market will die.

Not giving all the tech available is incompetent. What is new to the VF is old news for the competition, customers ain’t that stupid. In a year or so it will still be seen as the same old dinosaur.

If you want a V8, go for it. It comes with an old wrapper in a different colour.

And for those who say Australians are unpatriotic for not supporting the local industry, boo hoo. Where is Holden’s loyalty to their customer base when imports offer more and their own export is a better car for the money compared to the local offering.

[Speedy Gonzales]

Holden dropped the ball a long time ago. It’s the old IBM syndrome where a market leader has such a strong following it forgets how to compete with the new players believing its loyal customers will never forsake it. It reminds me of the old folks who once would say if the Government said so then it must be true. The western world is far more savvy these days and hype means little.

I do see the Commodore getting a flurry on when it finally hits the market, there will be punters who will want the new thing but after that the market will die.

Not giving all the tech available is incompetent. What is new to the VF is old news for the competition, customers ain’t that stupid. In a year or so it will still be seen as the same old dinosaur.

If you want a V8, go for it. It comes with an old wrapper in a different colour.

And for those who say Australians are unpatriotic for not supporting the local industry, boo hoo. Where is Holden’s loyalty to their customer base when imports offer more and their own export is a better car for the money compared to the local offering.

Therein lies the awful truth. They should scrap the Commodore and import the Camaro, Corvette and Silverado which will sell easily given the market that those cars target. Wouldnt cost GM much due to their production volume to make a few rhd versions.

Or the government should buy back Holden from GM, tax payers are already subsidising Holden, might as well buy the rights back and make it a public enterprise, use the taxes to support local manufacturing, technology and employment, tax deductions for citizens and perm residents to buy and support locally made cars, get Holden to build and support infrastructure besides automotive, ie rail, steel works, aviation, defence, robotics, logistics, mass transport, last but not least, housing

[C4B]

And for those who say Australians are unpatriotic for not supporting the local industry, boo hoo. Where is Holden’s loyalty to their customer base when imports offer more and their own export is a better car for the money compared to the local offering.

The whole "patriotic" argument is as much of a fallacy as the "brand snob" line. Great at making you feel better about why people aren't buying your product, but doesn't do anything towards getting you back on track.....

[planetdavo]

I get the distinct feeling that some of the younger members are perhaps too young to understand what actually makes the Aussie car uniquely "Australian".
The Aussie car has never been cutting edge, and it's never tried to be. It's always been simply an honest, comfortable family car that traded some final polish for overall good value, and it still is that car.
The main reason Australia has been able to continue producing a unique vehicle (primarily) for this market is because it didn't really have much existing international competition from within their own respective internationally owned organisations. Enough people wanted the sort of car we designed for this country to prevent the big bosses shutting it all down.
Australia these days is rapidly becoming a country that doesn't give a sh!t about Australian business. Care factor about Australian manufacturing is heading toward non-existant by many. Some intentionally avoid Australian made- no matter what the benefits are.
So, people are buying many other choices made overseas, ignoring the still unique benefits of the Aussie designed and made vehicle for some of the different benefits of the imports. So, what I keep hearing is that people basically want Aussie cars to be the same as an import, and since it isn't, they buy an import.
As they are entitled to do, but there will be a price to pay one day, just as there will be a price to pay one day for the explosion in overseas internet shopping.
It might be gold TODAY with the high Aus dollar...BUT.
Just remember that in the future, once the US and Euro markets finally recover, our dollar will go DOWN. Everything imported will go up in price- just like it used to be much more expensive, and by then, peoples current habits will have killed off Australian manufacturing, and a big chunk of Australian retail.
Both the above are HUGE employers.
Good luck to your kids all finding jobs as you get older. They can "thank" those that slagged off "Aussie" as inferior- when they still had a chance to save it...

[Micks]

Totally agree Davo, bloody good post, exactly the reason I bought GM instead of something Euro! :goodjob::goodjob:

[planetdavo]

Or the government should buy back Holden from GM, tax payers are already subsidising Holden, might as well buy the rights back and make it a public enterprise, use the taxes to support local manufacturing, technology and employment, tax deductions for citizens and perm residents to buy and support locally made cars, get Holden to build and support infrastructure besides automotive, ie rail, steel works, aviation, defence, robotics, logistics, mass transport, last but not least, housing

As many have said a hundred times, every country financially supports their car manufacturing operations. They just do it in different ways. Stop the assistance, they shut down, the workers go on the dole for ages. From a purely political perspective it is cheaper to subsidise the manufacturers than to let them shut down. Manufacturing employs vast numbers of Australians.
Most manufacturing will disappear from this country in the future. Unfortunately, the best we can realistically hope for is that we don't lose the "talent" along with it.
Governments for decades have been offloading their assets. Buying Holden will never happen.

[Evman]

:slow clap:

[macca_779]

O cry my a river Davo. We are all consumers here. Patriotism can only stretch so far. How dare you try and give the gilt treatment to those that use their brains to spend thousands of dollars of their hard earned over blindly dropping quite large sums of money on a product purely because its made here

People are starting to get annoyed with the premium we pay in this country. Sure I can justify it too as overall our wages are higher so it has to come from somewhere.

Where that gets messy is when we pay a significant premium for a lesser product made here that is sold cheaper overseas. Now I have no problem with that if the local demand is there. Where I do have a problem with it is if the demand isn't there and the blame is put on to the consumer as you so bluntly put it.

How about instead of blaming the consumer for walking away from the precious company you think can do no wrong. Look at Holden for their poor sales performance. The Australian public aren't the complete idiots you and the company work for assume they are. It's clearly evident by the amount of people walking into dealerships who aren't buying your cars.

[Plenty]

You are correct in some respects Macca but if you look at the sales they are not bad when compared to the test of the market they simply reflect that there is now more choice for people and Holden and Ford just don't get the exclusive market they used to in their hay day.

[planetdavo]

Think you should re-phrase that to "people like you" macca_779.
We get high wages in this country, yet short sighted people b!tch about the price of stuff in this country. The translation, of course, is that people want their cake and eat it too. How about you start comparing all sorts of purchases as a percentage of weekly pay between different countries, and get back to me about just how "poorly off" we are on this little island.
You can buy whatever you want. I'm not stopping you. But if you spend your whole life saying how sh!t, under-developed, expensive or whatever else locally developed products are, the future for you, your friends, your family and your kids deserves whatever comes from the choices you currently make.

[zacaxel1975]

Or the government should buy back Holden from GM, tax payers are already subsidising Holden, might as well buy the rights back and make it a public enterprise, use the taxes to support local manufacturing, technology and employment, tax deductions for citizens and perm residents to buy and support locally made cars, get Holden to build and support infrastructure besides automotive, ie rail, steel works, aviation, defence, robotics, logistics, mass transport, last but not least, housing

Comrade, the government should issue the vehicles to people based on their needs and length of service in the proletariat.
Of course this cannot be done until we overthrow the evil bourgeoisie...

[steve_t]

How much is 98 in 'straya now? It's around $2.40 a litre here in New Zealand currently :bawl:

[macca_779]

The point is Davo people are walking away. If holden wants to survive with local development and manufacture they need to step up their game. The VF looks to me to be a step in the right direction. Is it enough... I hope so, but time will tell.

[planetdavo]

How much is 98 in 'straya now? It's around $2.40 a litre here in New Zealand currently :bawl:

Paid $1.59 at a BP about a week ago.

[planetdavo]

The point is Davo people are walking away. If holden wants to survive with local development and manufacture they need to step up their game. The VF looks to me to be a step in the right direction. Is it enough... I hope so, but time will tell.

They are limited by what is affordable.
Holden don't have an open cheque book. Head office in the US signs the cheques.
If Australia tries to make a copy of an import, it will always be at a huge disadvantage cost per unit wise, as we have a very small market in the big scheme of things.
However, perhaps it's time to remind some that there are now approximately 60 different competitive brands available, way more than there used to be during Commodore's "glory days". Those days will NEVER, EVER return, no matter how brilliant Commodore (or Falcon for that matter) is. Many sales have been lost simply due to so many options being available.
The unfortunate thing is that these are ALL imports, ranging from cheap, disposable Chinese sh!t through to more people being able to afford Euro brands due to Australia's overall financial health.
People can buy what they want, but it is wrong to say most sales have been lost due to a notably inferior product. Commodore is better than it ever was in the past.

[D_BLOCK]

How much is 98 in 'straya now? It's around $2.40 a litre here in New Zealand currently :bawl:

And that's exactly why I couldn't afford to run my V8's back home when I wanted and how i wanted. Sad to hear it hasnt changed for the good yet.

[zacaxel1975]

The unfortunate thing is that these are ALL imports, ranging from cheap, disposable Chinese sh!t through to more people being able to afford Euro brands due to Australia's overall financial health.
People can buy what they want, but it is wrong to say most sales have been lost due to a notably inferior product. Commodore is better than it ever was in the past.

All imports? I thought Toyota not only manufactured cars in Aus, but also exported these cars overseas?
I am not sure how an improvement in Commodore quality proves any change in relative quality to other vehicles or that there is no correlation between relative quality and a decline in sales volumes?
However, I think it is more likely that the Commodore, in some of its variants, are no longer products that are relevant in this market.

[701let]

The point is Davo people are walking away. If holden wants to survive with local development and manufacture they need to step up their game. The VF looks to me to be a step in the right direction. Is it enough... I hope so, but time will tell.

Seriously there are 60 different brands for people to choose from now. As much as you constantly hate on them ve was and is a fantastic model and far better than any model commodore that went before it and to sell as many as it did for 6 years is a testament to that. As Davo has said the glory days are long gone and that wouldn't change no matter how good or bad a new model commodore is.

[vessloveit]

I was listening some co workers discussing their options for a new car recently, two of them have a couple of young ones the other has no kids at home all adults, not one of them was contemplating a commodore sedan or wagon all had been looking at the mid sized SUV although not one of them will ever need or use the four wheel drive or the extra ride height.
Not once did they consider the extra running costs of these vehicles compared to the commodore variants.

[C4B]

Not once did they consider the extra running costs of these vehicles compared to the commodore variants.

Maybe there wasn't any?

My Prado costs hundreds less a year to register than my GTS, $1000 less a year to insure, gets 5+ litres per 100km better fuel economy and the tyres last 3 times longer.

With a 6 cylinder the costs would be closer in all areas but still wouldn't break even.

[CLUBRED]

I think Austalian drivers have forgotten how to drive. All these SUVs may have 5 stars but I's rather have a car with a better chance of avoiding a crash to be honest, and not saying that as pro-commodore, they just don't offer the driver teh same experience..

[Speedy Gonzales]

As many have said a hundred times, every country financially supports their car manufacturing operations. They just do it in different ways. Stop the assistance, they shut down, the workers go on the dole for ages. From a purely political perspective it is cheaper to subsidise the manufacturers than to let them shut down. Manufacturing employs vast numbers of Australians.
Most manufacturing will disappear from this country in the future. Unfortunately, the best we can realistically hope for is that we don't lose the "talent" along with it.
Governments for decades have been offloading their assets. Buying Holden will never happen.

The US gov bought GM using billions of tax dollars, the Aus gov could do the same with Holden, instead of everything going offshore, at least it is back in Australian hands.

Im sure Holden made things besides cars before, during and after the second world war, which means that it can be done.

[Plenty]

The US gov bought GM using billions of tax dollars, the Aus gov could do the same with Holden, instead of everything going offshore, at least it is back in Australian hands.

Im sure Holden made things besides cars before, during and after the second world war, which means that it can be done.

Even if the government did buy it I doubt gm would let it go and if it did where does Holden get its materials from as we tend to use global parts to minimise cost.

[Speedy Gonzales]

Even if the government did buy it I doubt gm would let it go and if it did where does Holden get its materials from as we tend to use global parts to minimise cost.

If it was bought back, there has to be an incentive to support local manufacturers, suppliers and customers, so the profits stays local and doesnt go offshore, it requires an overhaul in how things are done, prices will come down due to volume, you have volume, you get discounts.

[C4B]

I think Austalian drivers have forgotten how to drive..

I'm sure the new Commodore will help that situation with its self parking feature.... I'll stick with my ABS and nothing else equipped GTS. Nice to still have a car that you actually need to drive.

[macca_779]

I'm sure the new Commodore will help that situation with its self parking feature.... I'll stick with my ABS and nothing else equipped GTS. Nice to still have a car that you actually need to drive.

Absolutely. I enjoy the simplicity of my car in that regard

[powerd]

I get the distinct feeling that some of the younger members are perhaps too young to understand what actually makes the Aussie car uniquely "Australian".
The main reason Australia has been able to continue producing a unique vehicle (primarily) for this market is because it didn't really have much existing international competition from within their own respective internationally owned organisations. ..

Davo, I am, sadly, no longer one of the young'uns Nowhere near. But I do remember the history of automotive manaufacturing in Australia, even studied it at uni.

You gloosed over the citical reasons why we have indigenous cars, and still do. Post WW11, we had the manufacturing capability from building planes etc in the War, and the Govt recognised that an effective way to exploit that and build Australian capability, independence and jobs was to develop our own cars. Naturally, they would be more suited to our conditions and much better than the Pommy crap and and American larger, heavier and less fuel efficient cars. So we did, and what a hige success they were in a newly properous Australia. Following that, with strong Union encouragement, an intensive import tariff was developed to help the fledgling industry continue to develop and grow, by keeping out or reducing competition. Unfortunately, the industry grew up but became lazy and rather than following global changes and more competitive makers with global interest, and hid behind the protection barriers. The government finally realised that massive barriers and uncompetitive products costs the country and consumers huge money and less competitive product. But the industry has remained highly protected and supported most of its life and still been slow to respond. It is acting like a mature player, but in a newly youthful market, and that's not enough. As GM and Chrysler found in the US. Nissan and Mitsubishi realised that the future lay in high volume global production in lower cost countries and became more profitable importers here.

Tariff barriers were reduced, but support remained strong to enourage adaption. However, the reality, more competition, has only started to bite hard in the last 10-15 years. But consumer preference has changed dramatically, and the rugged, more basic and "honest Aussie hack" car is no longer what many buyers (fleet or private) want. We are affluent. Most interstate trips happen on a (now much cheaper) plane trip. If people go on a long trip, it is probably up the Pacific or down the Hume, mostly freeway. Reps and farmers don't automatically drive Falcodores anymore, other vehicles fo the job required. Fuel costs, high prosperity, smaller housheolds, better roads, user chooser fleets, lots of choices, global design and development, much more overseas travel by Aussies and seeing/driving other cars there, etc etc, all add up to a completely different market. They are no longer all that interested in the Falcodore type car. And it makes sense, when you stand in their shoes. Buying a car is a mainly pragmatic purchase for some, an emotional purchase for others, a business decision for others. Like many products and services in an affluent society.

Value perception is based on many and varying factors. I am one of the few people I know who would regularly benefit from the performance and rugged Aussie-road suited characteristics of the new SSV Sportsback I considered last November. I am a spirited driver who regularly drives poor country roads. But as a package, it had too many downsides for me, and I found better value elsewhere - yes an import, but where it was made was not directly relevant. And my decision has proved right for me.

I have never seen a business succeed long term by thinking the customer's failure to prefer their product was wrong, or for that matter, by begging them to be patriotic. Holden's only successful answer is to build a product enough Australians (and overseas buyers to get volume up) actually want now at the price they will pay, and will turn a decent return on investment.

Forget "football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars", that's failed.

The big improvements in the VF will make it more competitive for some private or user chooser buyers. Had it been available last November, it would have been closer for me.But I would still have had issues with some other parts of the car not being up to scratch, as others have referred to here, so I can't say if I would have bought it.

Make the product people want, at a price they are willing to pay, and they will come. Just ask Hyundai, Toyota, VW etc.

[mac06]

It all comes down to ecomomics of scale. The reason imports are getting cheaper is a combination of the strong AUD and, more importantly, volumes produced. Remember that a year ago GM and PSA Peugeot Citroen created a global alliance. The reason was that they could share platforms, components and modules. That would mean lower costs and improved competitiveness over time. Post VF we will have to get a world car, whatever that is, for Holden to be competitive. In the meantime let's enjoy what we've got, a uniquely Australian car.


Under the terms of the agreement, GM and PSA Peugeot Citroën will share selected platforms, modules and components on a worldwide basis in order to achieve cost savings, gain efficiencies, leverage volumes and advanced technologies and reduce emissions. Sharing of platforms not only enables global applications, it also permits both companies to execute Europe-specific programs with scale and in a cost-effective manner.

Initially, GM and PSA Peugeot Citroën intend to focus on small and midsize passenger cars, MPVs and crossovers. The companies will also consider developing a new common platform for low emission vehicles. The first vehicle on a common platform is expected to launch by 2016.

http://media.gm.com/media/no/no/opel/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/no/no/2012/opel/0229_psa_europe.html

[mattnsw]

Consumerism is forever changing, what is popular today is long forgotten tomorrow.

As consumers most of us look around for value in products that best suit our needs.
Not all but most of us do this. Then there are those who stick to what they know and never seriously consider something else. It’s a bit naive but that’s their prerogative

You’d have better luck teaching my daughter’s new puppy the theory behind Quantum Psychics than persuading someone like PD that there may be another car on the planet offering better value than a Holden.

That is until Holden goes belly up and the dealership he works for starts selling Chery. Talk about Economics Of Scale, now there’s a car for the people, a lot of people. The J1 is $9,990 drive away and you don’t have to worry about its resale value, it doesn’t have any.

Even I couldn’t argue against the value for money that price offers.

Get one now and you’ll have a classic as a keeper. The day is coming when the Chinese will dominate the market as they do with most other things these days and the first Chery’s will be the FJ’s, EH’s, HQ’s of the future motoring world.

Cashed up bogans buying early model Chery’s for their car collections, life doesn’t get any better.


.

[mrtockley]

they just don't offer the driver teh same experience..

Or costs involved like low profile tyres, servicing of a V8, premium fuel or insurance.. Seriously, in our Nanny state, who can exploit 260+ kW now anyway?

[steve_t]

Consumerism is forever changing, what is popular today is long forgotten tomorrow.

As consumers most of us look around for value in products that best suit our needs.
Not all but most of us do this. Then there are those who stick to what they know and never seriously consider something else. It’s a bit naive but that’s their prerogative

You’d have better luck teaching my daughter’s new puppy the theory behind Quantum Psychics than persuading someone like PD that there may be another car on the planet offering better value than a Holden.

That is until Holden goes belly up and the dealership he works for starts selling Chery. Talk about Economics Of Scale, now there’s a car for the people, a lot of people. The J1 is $9,990 drive away and you don’t have to worry about its resale value, it doesn’t have any.

Even I couldn’t argue against the value for money that price offers.

Get one now and you’ll have a classic as a keeper. The day is coming when the Chinese will dominate the market as they do with most other things these days and the first Chery’s will be the FJ’s, EH’s, HQ’s of the future motoring world.

Cashed up bogans buying early model Chery’s for their car collections, life doesn’t get any better.


.

Quantum Psychics eh? :hide:

Don't forget that PD's position is not a completely unbiased on :stick:

[powerd]

Mattnsw

Agree completely. By luck, I went to the Shanghai Motorshow last year - now the second largest in the world. I was staggered at the range of local carmakers and how quickly they are catching up. Sure, there is some junk, but don't be fooled - those ones are cheap(or funny "copies") so the locals can buy them in big numbers. Only the smaller, cheaper locals had interiors of lower quality than the VE, paint seemed quite good and plenty of locally made cars(some of which were remakes of imported cars) were better. Some had more technology. If this is what they are like now, and how fast they are improving, what will they be like in 5-10 or even 15 years time? And don't forget the Indians TATA and Mahindra.

It won't be ordinary Cherys at $10k, it will be fully equipped mid sized cars at <$15k, and larger cars at <$20k. Who wouldn't look seriously and probably buy? The big Euro names who build cars there now will also start bringing in their Chinese built cars - silly not to. And most Chinese makers are dead keen to sell internationally, but are overrun with buyers at home and know their safety and technology is not quite there yet. But they are all preparing for their global stampede. What sort of stoush will there be in the market then?

[Alex(AUS)]

I get the distinct feeling that some of the younger members are perhaps too young to understand what actually makes the Aussie car uniquely "Australian".
The Aussie car has never been cutting edge, and it's never tried to be. It's always been simply an honest, comfortable family car that traded some final polish for overall good value, and it still is that car.
The main reason Australia has been able to continue producing a unique vehicle (primarily) for this market is because it didn't really have much existing international competition from within their own respective internationally owned organisations. Enough people wanted the sort of car we designed for this country to prevent the big bosses shutting it all down.
Australia these days is rapidly becoming a country that doesn't give a sh!t about Australian business. Care factor about Australian manufacturing is heading toward non-existant by many. Some intentionally avoid Australian made- no matter what the benefits are.
So, people are buying many other choices made overseas, ignoring the still unique benefits of the Aussie designed and made vehicle for some of the different benefits of the imports. So, what I keep hearing is that people basically want Aussie cars to be the same as an import, and since it isn't, they buy an import.
As they are entitled to do, but there will be a price to pay one day, just as there will be a price to pay one day for the explosion in overseas internet shopping.
It might be gold TODAY with the high Aus dollar...BUT.
Just remember that in the future, once the US and Euro markets finally recover, our dollar will go DOWN. Everything imported will go up in price- just like it used to be much more expensive, and by then, peoples current habits will have killed off Australian manufacturing, and a big chunk of Australian retail.
Both the above are HUGE employers.
Good luck to your kids all finding jobs as you get older. They can "thank" those that slagged off "Aussie" as inferior- when they still had a chance to save it...

Great! So by applying the same business case to the US, Holden must sell the (Aussie tax payer backed) VF at the same price so the US variants. That way Australians will have 10k more in their pockets to spend on other Australian businesses. That will be great for the Australian economy and Aussie jobs.

Alex

[701let]

Mattnsw

Agree completely. By luck, I went to the Shanghai Motorshow last year - now the second largest in the world. I was staggered at the range of local carmakers and how quickly they are catching up. Sure, there is some junk, but don't be fooled - those ones are cheap(or funny "copies") so the locals can buy them in big numbers. Only the smaller, cheaper locals had interiors of lower quality than the VE, paint seemed quite good and plenty of locally made cars(some of which were remakes of imported cars) were better. Some had more technology. If this is what they are like now, and how fast they are improving, what will they be like in 5-10 or even 15 years time? And don't forget the Indians TATA and Mahindra.

It won't be ordinary Cherys at $10k, it will be fully equipped mid sized cars at <$15k, and larger cars at <$20k. Who wouldn't look seriously and probably buy? The big Euro names who build cars there now will also start bringing in their Chinese built cars - silly not to. And most Chinese makers are dead keen to sell internationally, but are overrun with buyers at home and know their safety and technology is not quite there yet. But they are all preparing for their global stampede. What sort of stoush will there be in the market then?


So just to clarify, the Worst of the chinese (and indian) cars had interiors of lower quality than flagship holden models (and im guessing you mean flagship as you said you went and looked at an SSV wagon before you bought your Skoda)? And that because the interior and tech of the VE was so poor thats why it sold so little??

We have a VE R8 and a 2 year old Golf GTD. The Golf has all the warm and fuzzy bits inside you keep referring to such as soft touch dash, reverse park assist, touch screen, sat nav, heated seats, etc etc etc. We bought it for my Mrs. Its a shopping Cart and errand runner. When I looked at the R8 the last thing i was worried about was soft touch dashes and heated seats...And we would both take the R8 over the golf any day.

[C4B]

We have a VE R8 and a 2 year old Golf GTD. The Golf has all the warm and fuzzy bits inside you keep referring to such as soft touch dash, reverse park assist, touch screen, sat nav, heated seats, etc etc etc. We bought it for my Mrs. Its a shopping Cart and errand runner. When I looked at the R8 the last thing i was worried about was soft touch dashes and heated seats...And we would both take the R8 over the golf any day.

Why didn't you buy your Mrs an R8 as well then?

[701let]

Why didn't you buy your Mrs an R8 as well then?

Because we already have one.

[Party Pete]

For me the interior of the VE was the deal breaker and I tried to want one. And I am a car nut who really values the drive. Most people just sit there in traffic ignoring the world around them don't really car that much how something drives as long as it is acceptable so the interior they can touch and see every day ranks much higher for them than me. The fact that R8 sells for near double the price of a Golf GTD so the fact that the Golf's interior is notably superior in quality doesn't look great for the Commodore. I sorely hope that the VF redresses this.

[C4B]

Because we already have one.

But you both drive right? So if your Mrs loves the R8, why did you buy her a little Hatchback?

[701let]

But you both drive right? So if your Mrs loves the R8, why did you buy her a little Hatchback?

Because we needed a diesel for business purposes

[701let]

For me the interior of the VE was the deal breaker and I tried to want one. And I am a car nut who really values the drive. Most people just sit there in traffic ignoring the world around them don't really car that much how something drives as long as it is acceptable so the interior they can touch and see every day ranks much higher for them than me. The fact that R8 sells for near double the price of a Golf GTD so the fact that the Golf's interior is notably superior in quality doesn't look great for the Commodore. I sorely hope that the VF redresses this.

The GTD was 45k. The clubby was 60k. Both new.

[Party Pete]

Different deals on different days I suppose but the point still holds that the interior of the VE was out of step with its pricing and it only gets worse as you work up the price range. It was a deal breaker for me after 4 Holdens in a row despite the fact that I thought the HSVs were a great drive. Obviously I'm not alone because the sales reflect this. As I say though, hopefully Holden has redressed this with the VF which we will know soon enough once they hit the showrooms.

[701let]

Different deals on different days I suppose but the point still holds that the interior of the VE was out of step with its pricing and it only gets worse as you work up the price range. It was a deal breaker for me after 4 Holdens in a row despite the fact that I thought the HSVs were a great drive. Obviously I'm not alone because the sales reflect this. As I say though, hopefully Holden has redressed this with the VF which we will know soon enough once they hit the showrooms.

Mate the hsv has ap brakes all round, 19 inch wheels, a 6l V8 is just a much bigger car overall and was 15k more. What are just the brakes and rubber alone worth 10k?

You won't get a gtd with leather, park assist sat Nav etc for much if any cheaper than that.

And at the time the clubby with leather was that price.

I'm not trying to run down the golf, it is really a good car. Point I'm trying to make is that the holden/hsv is a lot of car for the money and some of the comments about how poor the interior is (comparing it to Chinese vehicles) are just ridiculous. And as this is a holden/hsv forum I thought that would be ok...

I think the 'low sales' has more to do with the fact the model was out for 6 years..

[C4B]

Because we needed a diesel for business purposes

I've had 4 V8's as company cars. What's the motivation behind a diesel?

[701let]

I've had 4 V8's as company cars. What's the motivation behind a diesel?

I'm not going to go into the ins and outs of it but we needed diesel vehicles. Hence the gtd.

[Party Pete]

I'm not criticising your choice of the R8 or knocking the overall value of the Commodore, just saying that the interior was not in line with the price, a problem that got more pronounced the further up the model range you went. For me it was a deal breaker and I have always believed that it is at least part of the reason why Commodore has been losing market share. Not the whole reason, but not helping the situation either.

[701let]

I'm not criticising your choice of the R8 or knocking the overall value of the Commodore, just saying that the interior was not in line with the price, a problem that got more pronounced the further up the model range you went. For me it was a deal breaker and I have always believed that it is at least part of the reason why Commodore has been losing market share. Not the whole reason, but not helping the situation either.

No worries mate I'm not offended just thought I'd put my 2c in

Cheers!

[Jag530G]

The US gov bought GM using billions of tax dollars, the Aus gov could do the same with Holden, instead of everything going offshore, at least it is back in Australian hands.

Im sure Holden made things besides cars before, during and after the second world war, which means that it can be done.

Building a car with a dry sump was too much for Holden (The W427, Holden built it with a wet sump LS3, HSV had to take it out and put in the LS7). How do you expect them to build anything other than conventional passenger cars?

At the time of WW2 and many years after, Holden had higher skills even on the production line because more things were done by hand (welding/painting) and also in house (The Woodville Tool Room as an example). Nowadays car factories are more about the final assembly of components bought in Just-In Time from suppliers and many other skills are out-sourced or replaced by machines.

About the only thing Holden has to offer in terms of manufacturing something other then passenger cars is a big factory space. Mind you Holden does possess very good engineering skills as can be seen by the development of the Camaro.

Cheers, Matthew

[Party Pete]

Holden is suffering the effects of a few doubtful calls over the last few years, a parent company who went bust (well saved by the govt but hardly in a strong position) and unfair market conditions. It shouldn't be forgotten that the rest of the world is busy pushing their currencies down in a dubious currency war at the expense of Australia's competitive position. Really, things couldn't be worse for Australian manufacturing than at the moment. The question is whether they can hold on until things get better, which they most likely will. Good product will help a lot though.

[powerd]

So just to clarify, the Worst of the chinese (and indian) cars had interiors of lower quality than flagship holden models (and im guessing you mean flagship as you said you went and looked at an SSV wagon before you bought your Skoda)? And that because the interior and tech of the VE was so poor thats why it sold so little??.

791let - the cheaper, and mostly smaller cars (typically 1.6L small sedans or hatches, often from makers not known outside China and there are plenty), tended to have interior quality similar to or a bit lower than the VE ie poor by world standards for non-luxury cars. Cars in the relatively more expensive and larger, by local standard, medium 2.0 class were better than the VE. I am excluding imports or their locally assembled version eg Audis, Skodas etc as of course as they are better again than the VE in these respects. I didn't refer to flagship VE models at all as the Omega and SSV, even the HSVs, are the same effective design and quality, so there is no practical difference. I didn't refer to any Indian cars as part of my comparison of interiors since I didn't see any there.

BTW, I am not just talking about soft touch plastics. I mean poor fit, excessive and inconsistent gaps, inconsistent textures, colours and finishes between supposedly the same materials (such as dash vs door capping mouldings), sharp moulding edges, design which tries to hide poor fit such as rolloff edges on dash mouldings rather than butted fit etc etc. Then there is the overall design and the way switches operate etc. All of these are obvious problems on the VE. Just check out the ridge under the handbrake grip and on the door pulls for a start. Even my 16yo son, when we were looking at the SSV Sportswagon pointed out the poor interior quality against the other cars we had looked at, and was able to identify specific problems on his own. Motoring journalists, a number of people on this forum, friends who have gone looking for a new car, even Holden people have acknowledged the problems. Again, not just the "warm and fuzzy bits" as you seem to dismiss people's genuine criticisms with. This is what most owners spend most time interacting with and value - so no wonder it is very important to them.

I said only that interior quality and design is one factor why people have opted for other choices, but there are numerous others. It was part of my choice to go elsewhere, a reason why some others on this forum have stayed away and several people I have helped to buy a car have been turned off it for that reason too. Holden know it, effectively admitted it at the launch of the VF, hence the big focus on the interior in the VF.

[seldo]

But you both drive right? So if your Mrs loves the R8, why did you buy her a little Hatchback?
Because he's a tight-arse but won't admit it...;)

[VYBerlinaV8]

The J1 is $9,990 drive away and you don’t have to worry about its resale value, it doesn’t have any.




This is a good point. About all I do with my car is drive to work and back these days. I don't think I'm ready to buy a Chery yet, but from a financial perspective it makes a lot of sense. I sure won't be spending $40k again for a daily drive - for me it just doesn't make sense.

[VYBerlinaV8]

Because he's a tight-arse but won't admit it...;)


I'm a tight-arse and freely admit it!

[JimmyXR6T04]

This is a good point. About all I do with my car is drive to work and back these days. I don't think I'm ready to buy a Chery yet, but from a financial perspective it makes a lot of sense. I sure won't be spending $40k again for a daily drive - for me it just doesn't make sense.

I'm the opposite.. It makes perfect sense to spend money on a car that i'm going to enjoy and drive every day. To me, what's the point in spending 40-50k on a nice car, only for it to sit in the garage, lucky to rack up 5000km a year? In saying that, i only do about 15,000 to 20,000km a year and the caprice averages 12-12.5L/100km so to me it's totally worth driving it.

If i didn't drive my car as my daily, I wouldn't actually ever get to drive it! It makes the drive to and from work a lot more enjoyable!

[powerd]

I'm the opposite.. It makes perfect sense to spend money on a car that i'm going to enjoy and drive every day. To me, what's the point in spending 40-50k on a nice car, only for it to sit in the garage, lucky to rack up 5000km a year? In saying that, i only do about 15,000 to 20,000km a year and the caprice averages 12-12.5L/100km so to me it's totally worth driving it.

It might depend on what your daily drive pattern is like. If it is just slogging on your own through traffic at lower speeds on clogged roads with lots of traffic lights, even a totally obsessed car nut like me would find a Chery(or maybe Kia/Up/Fiesta, whatever) attractive. Worse still, a BUS!!! THen something really interesting - most likely not a sedan, mostly likely a used Lotus, a Jag XKR or something along those lines - as my non-commuting fun car. Given how quiet, smooth , equipped with dawdling necessities (audio, aircon etc) and economical such commuter cars are these days, I doubt a large car would make the experience significantly better but is harder to park etc.

However, my commute isn't like that and still allows for enjoyment as well as one vehicle suiting most duties. But I understand where he's coming from.

[VYBerlinaV8]

My commute is about as exciting as watching grass grow.

[JimmyXR6T04]

It might depend on what your daily drive pattern is like. If it is just slogging on your own through traffic at lower speeds on clogged roads with lots of traffic lights, even a totally obsessed car nut like me would find a Chery(or maybe Kia/Up/Fiesta, whatever) attractive. Worse still, a BUS!!! THen something really interesting - most likely not a sedan, mostly likely a used Lotus, a Jag XKR or something along those lines - as my non-commuting fun car. Given how quiet, smooth , equipped with dawdling necessities (audio, aircon etc) and economical such commuter cars are these days, I doubt a large car would make the experience significantly better but is harder to park etc.

However, my commute isn't like that and still allows for enjoyment as well as one vehicle suiting most duties. But I understand where he's coming from.

I can see both sides, but i'm simply saying for me, most of my driving is done to and from work and school drop off etc, and very rarely with any real traffic. The rest of the time, i'm at home or popping over to see a mate/parents/inlaws etc... So, having a nice car to drive only on those occasions would be a waste of money for me...

95% of my driving and kms are done whilst commuting to work, and doing daily tasks... The only car i wouldn't use for this would be an old school muscle car, i'd reserve it for the odd stuff... Any new modern car, i'd much rather drive it more often and get my dollar value out of it before it depreciates to nothing, even with low kms on it.

[mattnsw]

Quantum Psychics eh? :hide:

Yeap it’s too much for me, I can’t even spell it. :doh:

[jaykay]

Yeap it’s too much for me, I can’t even spell it. :doh:

That's fukn hilarious :lmao:

[DMW]

Borrowed from FordForums.com.au

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/ChoppedPS/VfStripesFront_zpsf5b9817d.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/ChoppedPS/VfStripesProfile_zps8431d30a.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc468/ChoppedPS/VfStripesRear_zps48b99700.jpg

[jaykay]

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u164/jkgmh/clown_zps9104217c.jpg

[white lie]

There's already a thread on that monstrosity....
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=163250

[DMW]

Sorry fellas, I missed that thread. That clown pic cracks me up :lmao:

[Drizt]

That red looks hideous.

[jboy21]

The J1 is $9,990 drive away and you don’t have to worry about its resale value, it doesn’t have any.

.

Also allows people to save a bit of coin for the hospital bills / funeral when the 4wd hits them lightly.

[ti0350]

Also allows people to save a bit of coin for the hospital bills / funeral when the 4wd hits them lightly.

probably fit whats left of it after its been lightly hit by a 4wd in the boot of a Commodore

[Vulture]

Dear God, that white and red thing is grotesque.

[csv rulz]

Spotted this on my way home today. It was a V8 and wore HSV wheels with yellow centre logo.
Love the colour and from what I could see through the window I certainly liked

Why would it have hsv wheels? Potentially the new hsv...

[Troutman]

I've one Calais and one lower spec model in Melbourne. Also that V is looking better now according to more recent pics.

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4195057/commmodore_600-620x414.jpg

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/new-commodore-ssv-hits-the-streets-20130416-2hwxm.html

[korrupt]

Spotted this on my way home today. It was a V8 and wore HSV wheels with yellow centre logo.
Love the colour and from what I could see through the window I certainly liked

Why would it have hsv wheels? Potentially the new hsv...

Looks like the same one shown in this article - Spied: HSV VF Commodore (http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/spied-hsv-vf-commodore-20130417-2hz2n.html)

[SV300]

These aren't the full quid HSV cars. I believe these are Holden test cars with the HSV running gear etc.. minus specific bits that don't effect the mechanics....


J

[csv rulz]

Yep that's the one, exact same wheels.

[jaykay]

These aren't the full quid HSV cars. I believe these are Holden test cars with the HSV running gear etc.. minus specific bits that don't effect the mechanics....


J

You gonna post your pics up like from HSV Forum ?

[SV300]

2061
2062
2063
2064

[[Mitch]]

http://images-2.domain.com.au/2013/04/16/4196589/photo--12-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images.essentialbaby.com.au/2013/04/16/4196591/photo--14-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images-2.domain.com.au/2013/04/16/4196592/photo--16-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4196603/photo--6-_1024-940x628.jpg

[SV300]

http://m.smh.com.au/drive/motor-news/spied-hsv-vf-commodore-20130417-2hz2n.html

[korrupt]

Decent looking pipes on that silver one

[jaykay]

Big pipes on the silver car and I like the subtle bonnet bulge..

[axemurderer101]

why didnt the person taking pictures of those cars rip the covers off lol

[jaykay]

why didnt the person taking pictures of those cars rip the covers off lol

Or even lift them up for the pics then put back

Who else thinks the silver one with the big pipes is a blown GTS underneath ??? :idea:

[mickeyVX350]

A flock of them went through Bairnsdale last week. I was stupidly driving the car at the time...

[jaykay]

A flock of them went through Bairnsdale last week. I was stupidly driving the car at the time...

as opposed to driving sensibly ?

[Vulture]

Is it just my eyes or is there something interesting going on with the way in which the bonnet is interfacing with the headlights?

[[Mitch]]

Some more of the photos from drive.com.au

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4196587/photo--15-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4196596/CUphoto--10-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4196585/CUphoto--11-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4196594/photo--10-_1024-940x628.jpg

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2013/04/16/4196590/photo--11-_10243-940x628.jpg

[Goggles]

looks like the F-series is going to have round tailights.

someone needs to do a photoshop of the cars

[super coach]

the rear looks to be like a Nissan skyline or GTR with those big round lights.

[jaykay]

The more I look at the bonnet bulge the more it seems to be there for a blower.....

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

i would have thought they would have had turn signal lights in the mirrors by now ??

the front bar looks like it has square corners at the top and round at the bottom ??
not a fan at the moment
i think the calas looks better

[HZforMe]

The more I look at the bonnet bulge the more it seems to be there for a blower.....

It may be just me but the bonnet bulge doesn't look much different to the standard bonnet. I hope I am wrong as from what I have seen so far there doesn't look to be enough of a differentiation for the HSV. With the VE there are clear design differences which makes the HSV easy to identify. I really liked the tail lights on the VE but I don't see as much of a difference with the VF. Not that I matters as I can't afford one over here anyway.

[korrupt]

It may be just me but the bonnet bulge doesn't look much different to the standard bonnet. I hope I am wrong as from what I have seen so far there doesn't look to be enough of a differentiation for the HSV. With the VE there are clear design differences which makes the HSV easy to identify. I really liked the tail lights on the VE but I don't see as much of a difference with the VF. Not that I matters as I can't afford one over here anyway.

According to the article, it is the same. Too hard to change aluminum panels or something.

[SV300]

2065
2066

Just seen this pass me a left hand chev badged single dual exhaust car on Collins street Melbourne

[CLUBRED]

Not a fan of the centre bit on the grille..

Silver one I think is a Senator as it has the more wide open bumper.

[Vfzarb]

The HSV in blue looks nice. Has a nice stance with 20" rims.

[Troutman]

Not a fan of the centre bit on the grille..

When the VR Commodore got 'nostrils' in 1993, the look was said to be inspired by the '53 FJ. Perhaps they will be making another appearance.

[SV300]

Not a fan of the centre bit on the grille..

Silver one I think is a Senator as it has the more wide open bumper.

The centre bit could be a furfy....


J

[plonkerchops]

^^^^^^^
funny you should mention that cos I thought the taillights were a bit VR-ish
( that's for troutmans post above)

[CLUBRED]

Tail lights have a bit of FT86 flavour..

[VHSLE]

According to the article, it is the same. Too hard to change aluminum panels or something.

I read the same in the article, it's not like HSV modify each E3 bonnet, they are a different pressing.

It's also glossing over the fact that we only got the scooped hood on the E series HSV because it was already done and paid for by Pontiac for the G8, same goes for the VZ Monaro thanks to the Pontiac GTO. Earlier HSV's had the standard holden hood except for VL and VN Group A's which had a bolt on fibreglass scoop.

Unfortunately the Chev SS has the same hood as our Commodore so there's no freebies in the parts bin for HSV to use, not yet anyway.

[jaykay]

http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/mo...417-2hz2n.html

[VX2VESS]

dunno if posted already VE best car made in Australia http://www.news.com.au/national-news/holden-ve-commodore-named-best-australian-built-car-in-history/story-fncynjr2-1226621956105

[korrupt]

Omega replaced with Evoke ?

So says this article (along with price cuts over VE models) - Click here for article (http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2013/large-passenger/holden/commodore/holden-vf-commodore-evoke-from-under-35k-36111)

[jaykay]

http://youtu.be/S-kd82lF-nk?t=6s

[jaykay]

Omega replaced with Evoke ?

So says this article (along with price cuts over VE models) - Click here for article (http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2013/large-passenger/holden/commodore/holden-vf-commodore-evoke-from-under-35k-36111)

I will have an Evoke Evoke :lol:

[CLUBRED]

Wasn't evoke dropped for Alto grey?

[jaykay]

So I will have an alto grey evoke :lmao:

[Jamolad]

Think the only colours Evoke comes in are Executive, Omega and Vacationer.

[Quark]

Think the only colours Evoke comes in are Executive, Omega and Vacationer.
VF11 will expand this colour range to include Belmont and Kingswood.

[IJ.]

VF11 will expand this colour range to include Belmont and Kingswood.

Actually LOL here for real at this :D

[seldo]

VF11 will expand this colour range to include Belmont and Kingswood.
Don't forget that Belmont comes sans chrome or badges...;)

[IJ.]

Don't forget that Belmont comes sans chrome or badges...;)
No radio and rubber floor mats ;)

[Goggles]

No radio and rubber floor mats ;)

and if it had a manual tranny and a V8, it would be a real sleeper.

[IJ.]

and if it had a manual tranny and a V8, it would be a real sleeper.
Drum Brakes and no Armrests as well :D

[jaykay]

Bring back the traumatic gearbox :idea:

[IJ.]

Bring back the traumatic gearbox :idea:

3 speed column shift ;)

[Vulture]

Is it just me or is there very little excitement on the forum about the new HSVs? I recall back prior to the VE HSV release everyone was in a bit of a frenzy but this time it's all a bit meh.

[jaykay]

:sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:

Like the federal erection, it is dragging out....

[Troutman]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/thumb/640/321/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Holden-VF-Commodore-Ute-SS-1-625x359.jpg

Wearing Victorian number plates on its tailgate, the Holden VF Commodore SS V ute has been caught testing at the famous Nurburgring circuit, in Germany.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/226776/holden-vf-commodore-ssv-ute-testing-at-the-nurburgring/

[duke5700]

Why would they test it there?

[steve_t]

Awesome that even though there's not a huge difference from VE to VF mechanically (finally an AL bonnet and the 0.1L/100km saving via the electro PS LOL) they're at the 'ring trying to refine everything. Perhaps it's for better handling and performance. Perhaps they just wanted to go there... I know I do ;)

[jaykay]

Why would they test it there?

To break the 400 km/h barrier...

[Woodchukka]

Would be interesting to see the time it posted?.

[IJ.]

Why would they test it there?

Maybe to annoy James May ;)

[Brett240]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/thumb/640/321/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Holden-VF-Commodore-Ute-SS-1-625x359.jpg

Wearing Victorian number plates on its tailgate, the Holden VF Commodore SS V ute has been caught testing at the famous Nurburgring circuit, in Germany.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/226776/holden-vf-commodore-ssv-ute-testing-at-the-nurburgring/

Silver SS V badge and brembo's, definitaly coming standard then.

[LJCHSV]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/thumb/640/321/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Holden-VF-Commodore-Ute-SS-1-625x359.jpg

Wearing Victorian number plates on its tailgate, the Holden VF Commodore SS V ute has been caught testing at the famous Nurburgring circuit, in Germany.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/226776/holden-vf-commodore-ssv-ute-testing-at-the-nurburgring/

I like it! :driving:

[Jamolad]

Silver SS V badge and brembo's, definitaly coming standard then.

Maybe, maybe an option, but also may just be a test mule for Maloo running gear and they are using the SSV because the VF Maloo has not yet broken cover

[steve_t]

I really hope they do something amazing with the Maloo!

[seldo]

Why would they test it there? I was there at the Nurburgring last year on a manufacturers' test-day and it was full of all sorts of different makes and models testing, many of them half-covered in camouflage. The day I was there I saw at least 6 different sizes of Benzes, about the same in BMWs, Minis (in camouflage.....but nothing else looks like a bloody Mini) a couple of Astons, several Cadillacs including an STS wagon, a couple of Porsches, Range Rovers, Audis, Jags etc. And they all had one thing in common - they were all getting an absolute pizzling! All the big manufacturers have their own huge workshop/warehouse facilities at the track

[HSVREDSLED]

A lot of hype for a VE ute with a Mitsubishi Lancer front end..

[CLUBRED]

One thing has been bugging me since release, and not the naff aerial:

http://users.tpg.com.au/cmr05e//VFWHEELS.JPG

The wheels..

[1BEAST2NV]

poo...

E series chops this, if its the last commy released i feel sorry for them.

[Plenty]

A lot of hype for a VE ute with a Mitsubishi Lancer front end..

I can see Mercedes, I can see Jaguar but for the life of me I cannot see Mitsubishi anywhere.

[Troutman]

One thing has been bugging me since release, and not the naff aerial:

The wheels..


Not the first time in history this has happened.

http://www.marque.com.au/usedcars/images/2003%20Holden%20Calais%20VYII_2.jpghttp://www.fastlane.com.au/Features/AU-II_XR8.jpg

[RAWKUS]

Down Humphries Road in Mount Eliza/Frankston yesterday followed a silver VF SSV. Had duct tape covering the badge on the boot lid, but SS badges on lower rear doors etc there to see.
May have been a company exec as the rest of his family were in the car. It had great presence on the road. They have done well with the headlight and tail treatment. Would love to see what HSV is doing too, because the Holden models themselves look the goods IMO. Hope they don't stuff with it too much....we'll see.

[redvxr8clubby]

I can see Mercedes, I can see Jaguar but for the life of me I cannot see Mitsubishi anywhere.

I guess it was a general reference to the headlights tapering in towards the middle of the car. I don't see Lancer either. I thought similar when the VY was released, why would they want the back of it to look like a Magna, given the similar style of the tail lights.

[Vfzarb]

Anyone expecting Holden to at least increase the output of the SV6 and SS engines? Would be disappointing if the engines remain completely unchanged from the VE Series.

[Jac001]

Anyone expecting Holden to at least increase the output of the SV6 and SS engines? Would be disappointing if the engines remain completely unchanged from the VE Series.

No expected power changes. I don't know why you think it would be disappointing.

[Troutman]

Weight reduction > power increase.

[Plenty]

No expected power changes. I don't know why you think it would be disappointing.

I reckon the six will get a tweak.

[Plenty]

Weight reduction > power increase.

40-60kg gonna make fark all difference to straight line speed on a Street car. I reckon you'd have to knock at least a hundred to really benefit the power to weight.

[Marco]

By my calculations, removing 50kg from a 1770kg SS with 270kW is the same as giving a 1770kg SS an extra 8kW. So yeah, you may not notice a straight line speed difference but hopefully you will notice better direction changing ability, lower fuel consumption and reduced brake wear.

[Plenty]

It'll definitely point and turn in better, whether the electro mechanical steering is any good will be another topic I'm guessing.

Any weight reduction is welcome but potential buyers/upgraders may turn their nose at a "new" model with the same power as the previous one and not realising the real world benefits of the diet.

[6_litre_man]

This turned up on harrops facebook page, Quote "Look what we found on the weekend in country Victoria... US Spec Chevy SS (aka VF Commodore)... notice the steering wheel?"

2081

Cheers
Matt

[Woodchukka]

Good find there.

[Plenty]

Shame we don't get the paddle shifters!

[LJCHSV]

Shame we don't get the paddle shifters!

There better be on the HSV or there'll be some very pissed potential buyers of the car out there...We want up to date technology's or our performance cars!!

[Plenty]

There better be on the HSV or there'll be some very pissed potential buyers of the car out there...We want up to date technology's or our performance cars!!

Well they reckon it's too expensive for us! Yet they manage to put them on nearly every other make of car and previously in the VZ SV6.

[Red Beard]

Well they reckon it's too expensive for us! Yet they manage to put them on nearly every other make of car and previously in the VZ SV6.

I had the VZ SV6, they weren't worth it. I used them a few times on the putty road, but because they're fixed to the wheel, if your hands aren't positioned right all the time you fingers are trying to find the buttons. I usually ended up using the shifter.

[macca_779]

There better be on the HSV or there'll be some very pissed potential buyers of the car out there...We want up to date technology's or our performance cars!!

Doubt it. The men will be buying manuals

[Souljah]

Would rather the manual with paddle shifters.

[Troutman]

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k563/tom939c1/2014_SS_Part1_zpse71fd3f8.jpg

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k563/tom939c1/2014_SS_Part2_zpsa4f0ed3d.jpg

Interesting it has a transmission cooler. I don't think any Holden or HSV cars do?

[Jag530G]

Chevy SS gets a few new things.

Glove box light!!! :yahoo:

Other interesting thing are the 10 way power seats, not the current 8 ways. The Chev gets power lumber as well, wonder if our VFs will get that?

Heated exterior mirrors.

Flappy paddles.

Cheers, Matthew

[Troutman]

I think heated mirrors have been standard issue for some time (my WM has them).

Forgot to mention, the knee airbag has been fitted to the Caprice PPV for some time, but to my knowledge no civilian models for any market have been fitted with it.

Of course, history is repeating. The Pontiac G8 got features like AFM and remote engine start before Holden.

[Jag530G]

I think heated mirrors have been standard issue for some time (my WM has them).

Forgot to mention, the knee airbag has been fitted to the Caprice PPV for some time, but to my knowledge no civilian models for any market have been fitted with it.

Of course, history is repeating. The Pontiac G8 got features like AFM and remote engine start before Holden.

And tyre pressure monitoring too.

Its like the Chinese market Buick Park Avenue which is a CKD Caprice, it gets a lot more kit than what we do. The Chinese fit it with more woodgrain and power/heated/cooled/reclining rear seats as well.

Cheers, Matthew

[Ghosn]

On the brochure it says the Chevrolet is fitted with Summer only tires?? Semi-slicks? :hmmm:

Someone able to clarify?

[jc_sv8]

"Summer performance tires should not be used for driving in winter conditions. Doing so will adversely affect vehicle safety, performance, and durability. An alternate tire should be used in winter conditions. Summer-only tires tend to wear faster and are more susceptible to damage from road hazards or curb impact than standard profile tires. Use only GM-approved tire and wheel combinations. Unapproved combinations may change the vehicle's performance characteristics. For important tire and wheel information, go to gmaccessorieszone.com or see your dealer for details."

[cashie]

They also get staggered rims/tyres too....

[calais190]

They also get staggered rims/tyres too....

Standard HSV figment on the old clubbies. 6.2L gets the staggered wheels. I can't see this transferring across to the VF non-HSVs. Unless the SSV gets staggered as a way of differentiating the model from the SS. But I doubt it very much. Majority of people who buy SSVs would be pretty pissed off if they had couldn't rotate their tyres to save on tyre tread...

[Goggles]

from drive.com.au http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/vf-ute-caught-at-the-nurburgring-20130424-2idgo.html

"It is expected that VF SS variants, like the Nurburgring Redline ute, will still use the L98 6.0-litre V8 rather than the LS3 6.2-litre that will be in the Chevy SS (http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/holden-racing-for-nascar-success-20130219-2ep8r.html) and HSV (http://news.drive.com.au/motor-news/carmake/HSV) models.
But Drive understands that Holden has squeezed a little more power from the V8 which, considering all VF models will shed up to 80 kilograms (http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/new-vf-commodore-in-detail-20130215-2egi1.html) thanks to the use of lightweight aluminium components, will improve its performance, handling and fuel economy."

I'm sure there is a bit more than a squeeze available from the L98 without really trying too hard.

[Ghosn]

"Summer performance tires should not be used for driving in winter conditions. Doing so will adversely affect vehicle safety, performance, and durability. An alternate tire should be used in winter conditions. Summer-only tires tend to wear faster and are more susceptible to damage from road hazards or curb impact than standard profile tires. Use only GM-approved tire and wheel combinations. Unapproved combinations may change the vehicle's performance characteristics. For important tire and wheel information, go to gmaccessorieszone.com or see your dealer for details."

I read that part but I'm still confused. If I purchase the car and winter comes around, do I have to go and purchase new tires for winter???