Stroking Chocco's Cross 8 - Fuel Economy Question ??????

[chocco]

Hi All,

Now sometime during winter I will assisting in the stroking of the Cross 8 to 383 during caravan downtime.

This will be a budget build as in no heads or cam(maybe), new springs, etc and as I am not chasing top end but Torque up to 4000 rpm, hopefully no injectors either. A set of Difilipo coated longs will be going on as well.

I guess the theory is more torque less pedal to the metal means less fuel.

Currently at the moment towing I am averaging around 21ltr and not towing around 11.5/12.5 at 100km/h highway, stilll not tuned.

If i am going to get the same or less all good but if its going to go up by heaps well sought of defeats the purpose.

Basically after other people out there with stroked LS1's with their fuel economy figures.

Cheers

[XUV]

you should try a tune first, to at least know what's possible and then maybe a 215 to 218 cam , b4 stroking.

[chocco]

I already know a cam is not going to give me what i want and either is a tune.

Blower or stroking will give me the torque i am after, cannot afford a blower so this is it.

[Micks]

Just my opinion, though would only go down this path if your ride is a keeper? There's no investment in stroking! Also no real point unless considering @ least a baby cam! Otherwise you'll be disappointed!!
I don't reckon your fuel economy will change considerably by stroking if anything with a good tune it should be better as there's less effort to do same job.
Reckon I'd be looking @ heads & cam or some form of FI instead. Less down time & probably better result on the old 5.7L.
I sold my VY & opted for a VZ 6L as I was also looking for slightly more power & a bucket load of torque which I now have :)
Good luck with it.

[peter b]

Stroking the motor and leaving factory cam will be crap to be honest
You will use more fuel no ifs or bits and to build a stroker with all machining and replacing everything needed will met you around same coin as a blower.
Wouldn't worry about stroking the motor unless you were chasing big numbers in both hp and torque in which would involve heads cam etc.
my opinion put the money into a harrop 1900 blower and be done with it however that is my opinion take it as you wish

[chocco]

Just my opinion, though would only go down this path if your ride is a keeper? There's no investment in stroking! Also no real point unless considering @ least a baby cam! Otherwise you'll be disappointed!!
I don't reckon your fuel economy will change considerably by stroking if anything with a good tune it should be better as there's less effort to do same job.
Reckon I'd be looking @ heads & cam or some form of FI instead. Less down time & probably better result on the old 5.7L.
I sold my VY & opted for a VZ 6L as I was also looking for slightly more power & a bucket load of torque which I now have :)
Good luck with it.

Thanks Mick,

Yes its a keeper and I am on a tight budget and would not have even entertained the idea had help been offered to do it.

Have done the research with how much torque I should get and where and I wont get that with a cam//tune, remembering I need this torque available from start to 3000rpm and I dont go more than 100 with the van so I need it down low.

If budget allowed yes I would do FI but dont have the money.

Thanks for your advice.

[bozodos]

a small cam should give you that low end torque that you're after, have you had a look at the Comp 212/218 options? Don't know about head options, but could be worth looking into rather than trying to stretch your budget to FI or stroking.

[chev]

Harrop have good deals sometimes. You might be supprised:nyuk:

[Drizt]

Harrop have good deals sometimes. You might be supprised:nyuk:

Do go on :)

[chocco]

Harrop have good deals sometimes. You might be supprised:nyuk:

When I say tight budget, I mean tight.

Could always take the kids out of private school, then not so tight.

[Souljah]

Trying to do it on the cheap is only going to cost you more in the long run. I can't imagine fuel economy, stroker, towing and tight budget all go in the same sentence.

[Drizt]

Oztrack FE cam sounds like it would be what you are after.

http://www.oztracktuning.com/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3_23&products_id=88

[duke5700]

You won't save fuel..

It will go faster however.

[swingtan]

If you're towing, want more "go and on a very tight budget, do the diff gears and get it tuned. Actually, I'd probably aim for the following...



Decent exhaust: might be a tad tricky if it's used "off road" but certainly worth the effort.
Decent intake: Two Hole Mod works fine, don't be overly swayed to pay out $500 for an OTR unless you want the look.
Tune: Big changes here to suit the above.
Diff Gears: Makes a significant change to how the car drives, especially towing. With an appropriate tune, you won't loose economy.

if the budget can stretch...

Cam and springs: move the torque range to where you want it. A mid 220's cam with gentle lobes will pick up power without risking longer term issues.



If you got all the work done in a shop, you could probably allow $3K for stage one and the same for stage 2. If you're handy with the spanners and get a bargain in the classifieds, Stage 1 could come down to $1500 and stage 2 to $1000.

Just something else to consider.

Simon

[Souljah]

Do they make front and rear gear sets to suit the Cross 8's?

[IJ.]

Do they make front and rear gear sets to suit the Cross 8's?

Haven't found alternates for the Fronts, stock is 3.46:1.

[swingtan]

I thought the front ring and pinion were the same as the rear, it was a pretty big assumption though....... :hide:

[IJ.]

Pretty sure the Front is a ZF Part Simon,Holden used 2 rears depending on IRS or Live axle, been trying to track down a Quaife centre for mine, I "believe" it's used in some of the BMW X cars..

[QldKev]

Without knowing a budget amount I can only guess.

Stokers add up to $, and without external mods may not be the best idea. Every stroke of the engine on a stroker will consume more air in, and produce more exhaust. Without the external mods you are restricting the power from day 1.

Blowers cost a few $, but they are pretty easy to bolt on; and remove. So later if you decided to sell the car, you could unbolt it and recoup a good chunk of your money or use it on your new toy.

I would be looking at what Swingtan said. Do the intake, exhaust and tune first.

The other thing is what fuel are you currently running? Most tuners opt for 98 octane. I've found whilst I do get better L/100, the extra cost of the fuel balances it back out; but I do have at a guess 30-35% more hp than stock.

QldKev

[XUV]

I already know a cam is not going to give me what i want and either is a tune.
.

I think you're wrong and you should look harder, re read the cam debate threads, chev did some work for you, talk to him.

Question is how many torques are you after ? You should dyno your rig so that you have a base number .
Dyno tune it so that it's doing it's thing at what 2500-3000 rpm in 3RD .

[chocco]

I think you're wrong and you should look harder, re read the cam debate threads, chev did some work for you, talk to him.

Question is how many torques are you after ? You should dyno your rig so that you have a base number .
Dyno tune it so that it's doing it's thing at what 2500-3000 rpm in 3RD .

Yes I am planning on taking the car down to VCM for a power run to see where it is at before I do anything.

Torque Numbers I am after 600 -650nm but low in the rev range, its no good to me high up, the auto should be fine as I dont flog it.

Tuning might get me some but correct me if I am am wrong, its not going to move it to where I want it.


swingtan
Re: Stroking Chocco's Cross 8 - Fuel Economy Question ??????

If you're towing, want more "go and on a very tight budget, do the diff gears and get it tuned. Actually, I'd probably aim for the following...

1.Decent exhaust: might be a tad tricky if it's used "off road" but certainly worth the effort.
2.Decent intake: Two Hole Mod works fine, don't be overly swayed to pay out $500 for an OTR unless you want the look.
3.Tune: Big changes here to suit the above.
4.Diff Gears: Makes a significant change to how the car drives, especially towing. With an appropriate tune, you won't loose economy.
if the budget can stretch...
5.Cam and springs: move the torque range to where you want it. A mid 220's cam with gentle lobes will pick up power without risking longer term issues.

If you got all the work done in a shop, you could probably allow $3K for stage one and the same for stage 2. If you're handy with the spanners and get a bargain in the classifieds, Stage 1 could come down to $1500 and stage 2 to $1000.

Just something else to consider.

Simon

Thanks Simon,

1) The exhaust I have is a dual 2.5inch off a VZ Crewman Thunder, guy I got it off reckons it dyno'd 6rkw less than his name brand, still better than the crap that was on their. Currently have HM shortys these will be replaced with DiFilipo Long Tube Black Cermic coated, from what I have google these headers will move the peak Torque lower in the rev range, comparing dyno sheets and reduce bonnet temps cause it gets real hot.
2) Two hole mod already done using HSV Lower Air Box.
3) Yes Tune after I do what I need to first, whatever that ends up being.
4) Diff gears no-no as it will push up the revs at cruising.
5) Cam would be the best option, but to a extent its a unknown exactly how lower the peak torque will move in the rev range and what I will get out of it. I have one chance to get this right.


Souljah
Re: Stroking Chocco's Cross 8 - Fuel Economy Question ??????

Trying to do it on the cheap is only going to cost you more in the long run. I can't imagine fuel economy, stroker, towing and tight budget all go in the same sentence.

Probably didnt explain my self properly, I dont really care that I get 21ltr towing, just dont want 30ltr towing. We have 2 V8's in the family wouldnt have it any other way.

If I do a stroker or CAM/springs it will be parts only, cost. Otherwise I would just do tune and leave it. The car only does 5000km a year max.


Thanks everyone for your input, if anyone has any CAM only dyno runs with a stock LS1 with headers/exhaust only with grind they used let me know, remembering that the auto is stock and will be left stock.

PS - I know FI is best, god only knows I know it, but it aint going to happen, ever.
Cheers

[Micks]

Not trying to be a downer but chasing that torque figure @ low noise will be pushing shit up hill to achieve it!
But if you do will eat my words!!

[swingtan]

6.0L

Untuned, just the DiFillipo 4>1 longs and 2.5" exhaust.

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/173/484835769_c9a23ced31.jpg

And then with a tune.....

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2259/2128043649_f7241e2818_z.jpg


The 6.0L may be a better option.

As for raising RPM, what's your thinking with that? You do realise that any increase in fuel usage from the higher RPM is more than offset by the increase of torque from the gear ratio. Most people I've seen have increased economy after fitting diff gears (and tuned to suit).

[chocco]

Not trying to be a downer but chasing that torque figure @ low noise will be pushing shit up hill to achieve it!
But if you do will eat my words!!

600 is my aim anything over that will be a bonus.

[macca_779]

Use a small duration cam like a 216/216 .600 .594 112LSA from camtech. You'll get big torque gains and loose no fuel economy

[Micks]

Agree with you, my L76 with baby cam could achieve 600nm & 278rwkw @ full noise. That's with the great flowing L92 cylinder heads that the 5.7 doesn't have!

[Micks]

600 is my aim anything over that will be a bonus.

Hope you get there mate, just remember whatever the result you'll have no slouch as any LS engine is far superior & most economical than it's predecessors or any Ford for that matter!!

[IJ.]

pokes Choc in da PM...

[chocco]

6.0L

Untuned, just the DiFillipo 4>1 longs and 2.5" exhaust.

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/173/484835769_c9a23ced31.jpg

And then with a tune.....

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2259/2128043649_f7241e2818_z.jpg


The 6.0L may be a better option.

As for raising RPM, what's your thinking with that? You do realise that any increase in fuel usage from the higher RPM is more than offset by the increase of torque from the gear ratio. Most people I've seen have increased economy after fitting diff gears (and tuned to suit).

Sorry Simon, I just assumed a drop in ratio means higher rpm = more fuel at cruise instead of cruising at 2000rpm i would be cruising at 2300.

I am not worthy !

As for the 6ltr, my eye is on ebay but i would have to change the reluctor adds to the cost

[chocco]

Reckon the missus would notice if I swapped motors with the SSV

[IJ.]

Reckon the missus would notice if I swapped motors with the SSV
Not if we don't tell her ;)

Can send her off with mine shopping or something ....

[macca_779]

Agree with you, my L76 with baby cam could achieve 600nm & 278rwkw @ full noise. That's with the great flowing L92 cylinder heads that the 5.7 doesn't have!

Don't need L92 heads to do that. A good cathedral will make far more than that. I've seen 780nm off hand ported 853 heads and a 216/226 cam ;-)

[Micks]

Don't need L92 heads to do that. A good cathedral will make far more than that. I've seen 780nm off hand ported 853 heads and a 216/226 cam ;-)

No worries but what RPM?? Certainly not between 2500-3000 as the Op requires!

[peter b]

L92 heads are too big for the 6 litre just sayin.....

[bush_basha]

how much do you think the stroker setup will cost you? I'm thinking at least $6-7 K. probably more

[chocco]

how much do you think. the stroker setup will cost you? I'm thinking at least $6-7 K. probably more


Cost of parts $4000, but I have found some dyno figures of the comp cam 220 on a standard ls1 with headers and exhaust and otr.

Would be a good compromise, shld get most of the torque were I want it.

[bush_basha]

what about balancing and machining, is your pricing including new bolts, bearings and fluids etc.

[chocco]

i am going to eat humble pie

After spending frickin hours googling last night looking for dyno runs with LS1 cams I found the comp cams 220 from Oztrack which I believe is similar to Oztracks FE cam couldn't find any real dyno figures for the FE cam only simulated figures. Trying to find the dyno runs to quantify what you are after is bloody hard.

While it won't move the torque like a stroker going by the torque figures it should do almost what I am after at a cheaper price.

[brenten88]

oztrack also has the adventra/cross8 camshaft which is slighlty better with torque again over the FE camshaft pritty much the same though

if you want true torque you need to add cubes plus a small camshaft with a tight lobe seperation for example something like a 212/218 or there about on a 108-110 LSA will be extremely torque would make peak power at about 5000rpm and would pull like a train off idle and would probably still make 250+ awkw to boot

[XUV]

Cost of parts $4000, but I have found some dyno figures of the comp cam 220 on a standard ls1 with headers and exhaust and otr.

Would be a good compromise, shld get most of the torque were I want it.

Look at the truck cams for the 5.3/5.7 the 206/212 in the yank forums for consistent torque over 400 ft/lbs 550nm at your rpm .

It's actually perked my interest in getting cammed , group buy for the 206/212 , lol

[IJ.]

Look at the truck cams for the 5.3/5.7 the 206/212 in the yank forums for consistent torque over 400 ft/lbs 550nm at your rpm .

It's actually perked my interest in getting cammed , group buy for the 206/212 , lol
Sent Choc specs for a USA "RV Cam" last night ;)

[XUV]

Sent Choc specs for a USA "RV Cam" last night ;)

So are you saying I should have known this or that great minds :p ........ RV Cam, Caravan Cam or CCC , Chocco's Caravan Cam, lol

[IJ.]

So are you saying I should have known this or that great minds :p ........ RV Cam, Caravan Cam or CCC , Chocco's Caravan Cam, lol

Would say "Great Minds" but we both know that's not quite right ;)

[XUV]

a few dyno graphs here http://www.ls1truck.com/forums/dynodata/37827-desktop-dyno-numbers.html

[chocco]

Would say "Great Minds" but we both know that's not quite right ;)

I am going to try and chase up some dyno figure pictures for that :bow:"CCC" cam this weekend while at the same time trying to learn more about what all the cam figures mean.

IJ suggested I post a pic of the carvavan to put it into perspective, the car and the van are over 40ft together, VAN GVM 2490kg + Cross 8, Its not the most aerodynamic setup !!!!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Me5sEurg1MI/TpVCvJGgMSI/AAAAAAAAAUY/F2iCmI1eEG4/s640/2011-10-12%252013.24.21.jpg?gl=US

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uKN-_t-uTm0/TpVDJMqGnAI/AAAAAAAAAUc/6QcF19hfykE/s640/2011-10-12%252013.23.47.jpg?gl=US

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OfF8BuzZUVI/TqzIEGi4vhI/AAAAAAAABCY/bgqqu9-ElFM/s640/2011-10-29%252012.43.48.jpg?gl=US

[IJ.]

That there ^ my idea of "Hell on Earth" ;)

[XUV]

That there ^ my idea of "Hell on Earth" ;)
lol, we know you prefer the slip on
http://www.fishingmonthly.com.au/app/webroot/img/uploads/69410e919435a707bd258f2fc168aa1a_Ozcape_5.jpg

[IJ.]

lol, we know you prefer the slip on

LOL you'd need to strap that on so it didn't fall off ;)

[XUV]

the ultimate sleeper , strap that on , don a beret and take fpv bois at the lights, lol

[IJ.]

Anyway getting back to the point at hand, looking at the Choc Van you can now see why low end Tq is needed. :)

I'm still leaning towards Headers and an RV style cam.

[chocco]

Heres Steves Sim software for his Adventra/Cross 8 cam using longs and hi flow mufflers.

Alot of torque available from 1000rpm.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j45/oztrack/feuleconomycam1.jpg

Going to go and have a chat with Clive Cams during the week as well on the way home one night.

[IJ.]

Heres Steves Sim software for his Adventra/Cross 8 cam using longs and hi flow mufflers.

Alot of torque available from 1000rpm.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j45/oztrack/feuleconomycam1.jpg

Going to go and have a chat with Clive Cams during the week as well on the way home one night.

NOT Tuesday night ;)

[v8fazz]

600 is my aim anything over that will be a bonus.

Like this?

http://upit.cc/i/46449eb8.jpg

HDTCQ cam designed for low and mid range torque, although with otr, exhaust system, and 3.9's in a manual as well.