VF SS/SSV Sportswagon not available - Order Possible??

[Number55]

Hi Guys
Its been a while since I have posted as I have had to move away from having fun with cars for while.
I am now in the position to get a new VF SSV sportswagon. The wagon suites me perfectly as I can throw surfboards, family and a dog in the back if I need to.
i am really keen on a manual transmission. I know the Autos are great but I like to swap cogs myself

The HSV Tourer is available as a manual, but no Holden Sportswagon at all?

Does anyone have any advice on how to approach Holden and/or Dealers on possibly getting a special Order through?

I have heard rumours of things like this happening in the past, so I thought I wouldask the question.

Cheers

Timmy

[Plenty]

Hi Guys
Its been a while since I have posted as I have had to move away from having fun with cars for while.
I am now in the position to get a new VF SSV sportswagon. The wagon suites me perfectly as I can throw surfboards, family and a dog in the back if I need to.
i am really keen on a manual transmission. I know the Autos are great but I like to swap cogs myself

The HSV Tourer is available as a manual, but no Holden Sportswagon at all?

Does anyone have any advice on how to approach Holden and/or Dealers on possibly getting a special Order through?

I have heard rumours of things like this happening in the past, so I thought I wouldask the question.

Cheers

Timmy

Money talks mate, throw enough money at them i'm sure it would not be a problem. just ask your dealer.

[VendeTTR]

I've seen a few VF SS sportswagons getting around near the Elizabeth factory of late.

Edit: do they not come in manual?

[Number55]

Money talks mate, throw enough money at them i'm sure it would not be a problem. just ask your dealer.

I have had a few brief chats to Delers already and they dont seem to care, or want to help....
I can try but the reason I cant get a HSV Tourer which are available in a manual is due to budget

[Number55]

I've seen a few VF SS sportswagons getting around near the Elizabeth factory of late.

Edit: do they not come in manual?

No they are not available in a manual. No sportwagons at all through the Holden range will be available in a manual

[jaykay]

I have also been told...NO manuals...

[Wonky]

Money talks mate, throw enough money at them i'm sure it would not be a problem. just ask your dealer.

I doubt very much that will work. Many years ago when I was working (indirectly) for Holden and knew a few of the guys who look after new car sales and delivery fairly well I wanted my VY in a special Monaro colour and asked about. I was told that to basically stop the line to do a special order like that would cost me at least $5,000 back then even if they would contemplate it. A manual gearbox is a different thing I admit but they are still very reluctant to alter procedures already in place to do a special order.

[sjhugh]

I wonder what the thinking is behind not having a manual option for the SS & SSV wagons. The tech would already be there.

I guess Holden’s product surveys and sales figures say it's not warranted.

Still, being sports models you’d think there would be more than enough people interested in manuals to be viable.

It would be a deal breaker for me.

.

[Number55]

Thanks Wonky
That gives a good insight as to why. Its a real shame that due to Holdens research they think there isnt a need to provide the manual option
It cant be tooling or prodction line change as the HSV donor car still has to come through thtat same line

[Toddler78]

I wonder if it is to do with emissions testing? Ie wasn't tested in that config not ADR approved?

[swingtan]

Bit of a failed effort there. I'd been holding off on upgrading to get a VF Sportwagon but now that it's not available in a manual, I'll have to look at something different. I'm not interested in an auto, but wanted the room the wagon offered.

[Marco]

To me it just doesn't make sense not to offer something that was available on the old model and requires no engineering effort at all to carry over to the new one. I would have thought Holden needed every Commodore sale it could get - but then, there's effectively no competition so I suppose they figure we will just suck it up and order an auto wagon or a manual sedan instead.

[steve_t]

Guess you'll have to get an HSV Tourer ;)

[Jamolad]

If it can't be a factory option, I wonder if a dealer would be game enough to offer it as a pre-delivery dealer option.

Dealer would have cheap access to ordering in the manual gear from the factory, the auto gear they pull out will be new and able to be used/on-sold down the track, and if they are the only dealer in the country willing to take on the task and warranty the conversion they may pick up some sales from interstate.

[Plenty]

I doubt very much that will work. Many years ago when I was working (indirectly) for Holden and knew a few of the guys who look after new car sales and delivery fairly well I wanted my VY in a special Monaro colour and asked about. I was told that to basically stop the line to do a special order like that would cost me at least $5,000 back then even if they would contemplate it. A manual gearbox is a different thing I admit but they are still very reluctant to alter procedures already in place to do a special order.

Yeah very true mate, but surely there would be bugger all difference in installation as they do it for the sedan. Maybe the other option would be to do it aftermarket, probably get out of budget and into the HSV territory.

I reckon if he went into a performance based Holden like Patterson Cheney or the likes he may have more success.

[Marco]

How much is a manual HSV wagon now?

[Number55]

How much is a manual HSV wagon now?

About 72k apparently plus on roads. Which is plus LCT. Sadface

[MickStephens]

I sell new and used Holdens for a living. Putting an order through for a "Special" manual wagon wont happen.

Youre better of going auto, then waiting for a write off to come up and converting it yourself.

Cheers, Mick

[Marco]

Do you guys have any way of providing feedback to HQ about what customers are demanding but can't get?

[cashie]

I sell new and used Holdens for a living. Putting an order through for a "Special" manual wagon wont happen.

Youre better of going auto, then waiting for a write off to come up and converting it yourself.

Cheers, Mick

This is a bit sad if you need to do that.
Does anyone know the exact reason Holden have done such a stupid thing?

[Jag530G]

You might be better off putting together a list of who's interested and then Holden can do a bulk run. Perhaps Holden might at some point do a limited edition, say 100 SSV manual wagons.

Cheers, Matthew

[MickStephens]

This is a bit sad if you need to do that.
Does anyone know the exact reason Holden have done such a stupid thing?

Only reason is money. Building one gearbox option will allow quicker production times and less tooling which means less production costs which equal more profit.

We hardly sold Manual V8 wagons as the towing capacity is crap compared to the auto.

[Smitty]

Only reason is money. Building one gearbox option will allow quicker production times and less tooling which means less production costs which equal more profit.

bad logic... as those who want a manual will not buy at all from Holden ( a Colorado is NO equivalent) ....which equals a lost customer
means less profit


We hardly sold Manual V8 wagons as the towing capacity is crap compared to the auto.
I know of 3 individuals who bought SS/SSV auto wagons who ended up trading them in..on manual versions
as the auto versions are crap at towing on the highway. I sat with one who was towing his race car to PI
and the auto trans would not stay in one gear..up down down up...must of done several thousand gearchanges
on the way to the Island. He complained to the dealer's service people and was told it was normal when towing
heavy loads at high speed

He sold it/traded it and got a manual ...still has it and was waiting to see the VF model range before ordering
a manual SSV wagon. Looks like Holden will miss out on a sale unless a manual version is available...as he will not
have an auto wagon

[Smitty]

Do you guys have any way of providing feedback to HQ about what customers are demanding but can't get?


some people I know (inc me) are looking to start a letter writing campaign to Holden...aimed at Mike Deveraux
complainng that Holden will not make cars people want... All currently have SS/SSV manual wagons
and want to trade up to VF versions

They also intend going to the motoring press with letters asking why is Holden not making a vehicle
that people want...

[Hos]

I am not in a position to upgrade our auto wagon right now, 18-24 months and I hope to be. When I do, I want a manual. Simply to try and overcome the aftermarket exhaust headaches with an auto. I know of three other VE manual wagons bought brand new, and one lady who had an auto wagon for 3 months before trading it on a manual. To say there is no demand for them is crap. And the tooling at the factory is already there, from the VE sedan/wagon platform.

Listen to the consumers Holden, you need every sale you can get.

[jaykay]

This is a bit sad if you need to do that.
Does anyone know the exact reason Holden have done such a stupid thing?

I heard it was because of the lack of sales in the VE.......

[mjrandom]

LCT is included in the HSV price but you have to add the usual on roads like stamp duty rego and insurance.

[evil_ss]

some people I know (inc me) are looking to start a letter writing campaign to Holden...aimed at Mike Deveraux
complainng that Holden will not make cars people want... All currently have SS/SSV manual wagons
and want to trade up to VF versions

They also intend going to the motoring press with letters asking why is Holden not making a vehicle
that people want...
That is one thing that has really peeved me off about the later commodores, no individuality. I would love to see the days where you could option up any model with almost anything available to holden aka 6spd in VT exec 5.7.

[Marco]

We hardly sold Manual V8 wagons as the towing capacity is crap compared to the auto.

Really? I don't care about towing capacity but I just did a quick Carsales search for SS wagons - there are currently 76 autos and 43 manuals for sale nationwide. Can't have been that unpopular!

[farkford]

I am not in a position to upgrade our auto wagon right now, 18-24 months and I hope to be. When I do, I want a manual. Simply to try and overcome the aftermarket exhaust headaches with an auto. I know of three other VE manual wagons bought brand new, and one lady who had an auto wagon for 3 months before trading it on a manual. To say there is no demand for them is crap. And the tooling at the factory is already there, from the VE sedan/wagon platform.

Listen to the consumers Holden, you need every sale you can get.

What sort of issues do the autos have with an aftermarket exhaust?

... farkford

[Marco]

That is one thing that has really peeved me off about the later commodores, no individuality. I would love to see the days where you could option up any model with almost anything available to holden aka 6spd in VT exec 5.7.

Yeah. It's a little thing but it's annoying. Drove my Dad nuts a few years back as what he really wanted was a sedan with the 3.6 litre engine but a light interior. He didn't want to spend Calais V money; a Berlina with the 3.6 litre engine would have been just the thing. In his case he ended up buying a Calais and putting up with the black interior, so I suppose Holden might have a point about that, in that customers will buy something else from their range.

I can understand the point about production line complexity when your factory is flat out making cars to meet demand, but that's not exactly been Holden's problem of late...

[MickStephens]

Hey dont get me wrong. When we get a Manual V8 Wagon in we sell it for good money. Just takes forever to find a buyer in our used car lot.

Towing capacity is important to a lot of people and most of them only go by what the spec sheet says. A manual V8 wagon can tow 1600kg where an auto can tow 2100kg.

All those cashed up oldies who want to tow caravans go for the auto as the manual LEGALLY cant tow the brand new 1800kg caravan they just put a deposit on also.

[farkford]

Could be simple supply and demand, if enough people want a manual surely they could do a run it's not like they haven't got the bits.

... farkford

[JimmyXR6T04]

What sort of issues do the autos have with an aftermarket exhaust?

... farkford

More likely to drone due to AFM, especially the wagons.

[Marco]

Hey dont get me wrong. When we get a Manual V8 Wagon in we sell it for good money. Just takes forever to find a buyer in our used car lot.

Towing capacity is important to a lot of people and most of them only go by what the spec sheet says. A manual V8 wagon can tow 1600kg where an auto can tow 2100kg.

All those cashed up oldies who want to tow caravans go for the auto as the manual LEGALLY cant tow the brand new 1800kg caravan they just put a deposit on also.

I wouldn't have thought cashed up oldies would buy manuals in any event - but my thinking is that manual SS wagons would be bought generally by family guys. If the Sportwagon had been available when I bought my SS, I would have bought a manual one and would definitely have at least considered buying one when I need a new family car in a few years' time. Holden's decision not to offer a manual one effectively blows the field wide open and allows competing vehicles in - as if I have to have an automatic, which I don't enjoy driving, then I might as well cast the net wider to include other cars which I won't enjoy driving such as medium-large SUVs.

[Number55]

Glad to see Im not the only one who is frustrated by this! To make it worse I have to pay an extra 2k on what i would have paid for the wagon to have the (dis)pleasure of a sludgebox

[MickStephens]

Holden's decision not to offer a manual one effectively blows the field wide open

Not really. Ford have no hope. Toyota dont make wagons RWD, Nissan? Nope, Mazda? Nope.... Who would offer a manual V8 wagon? From memory, not many and not many are planing to. :( Shame really. they are a good thing in the used car market.

[Marco]

What I mean is that if I have to have an auto then I will look at other auto wagons, including ones that don't have V8s. I might buy an auto V8 wagon; but because I don't enjoy driving autos maybe I will decide instead to go the whole hog and buy, say, a Toyota Kluger instead.

[jaykay]

What I mean is that if I have to have an auto then I will look at other auto wagons, including ones that don't have V8s. I might buy an auto V8 wagon; but because I don't enjoy driving autos maybe I will decide instead to go the whole hog and buy, say, a Toyota Kluger instead.

http://www.greatwallmotors.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=21913&gclid=CM_eyuyy3rcCFQs5pgodHkQA4A there you go...

[Marco]

Where do I sign?

[cashie]

Only reason is money. Building one gearbox option will allow quicker production times and less tooling which means less production costs which equal more profit.

We hardly sold Manual V8 wagons as the towing capacity is crap compared to the auto.

No way, the line already switches between auto and manual for the utes and sedans, how is doing a manual wagon going to slow the production? Tooling, surely this also already exists as this section of the car would be common on all body types. I reckon I'm lucky to see 10-20% of VE Wagons with a towbar, can't see that being the reason.

[chocco]

Not that I will be getting rid of it any time soon but looks like the missus will be hanging onto the SSV G8 manual wagon for a while longer , 2010 with 25k on the clock !!

[sjhugh]

Not really. Ford have no hope. Toyota dont make wagons RWD, Nissan? Nope, Mazda? Nope.... Who would offer a manual V8 wagon? From memory, not many and not many are planing to. :( Shame really. they are a good thing in the used car market.

The boys and girls who currently own a manual VE wagon would be laughing.

In time it must be a good thing for the used value.

If I had one to sell, I’d definitely be asking a premium over the price of an auto.

.

[El Narros]

What a joke, I just bought a brand new Mazda 6 wagon, great car but its a bit small for my liking and has no guts. I am pretty keen on a SS Wagon manual but thanks to Holden I am no longer in the market. No way in the world would I buy a V8 in auto.

[jaykay]

Just read a VF SSV wagon pulled 216rwkw stock !! So 20% driveline loss from 270fwkw...

Oh and it was an auto !!!

[planetdavo]

In a "perfect world" people could buy whatever they want, and issues like balancing engineering, manufacturing and marketing costs vs return on investment wouldn't be an issue.
Why was there a VE V8 manual wagon, but no VF version?
The answer isn't that hard to find.
VE was developed in a period of prosperity for large local cars, when many thousands were still being sold each month. There was easily enough sales to justify covering many of the various sales possibilities- even the low volume ones like this one.
The large car class has since dived, and more and more people are migrating to auto's as well.
Some have gone to other brands. What have you missed out on doing so? No "grunt"? Bit small? Handles like a truck?
End of the day you ALWAYS have to weigh up what you gain and what you lose between different options. Rarely ever will one car tick every single box!

[swingtan]

So... I thought I'd do a bit of a comparison last night. Took the Omega wagon out but drove it in full manual mode. Taking just about driveability and shift feel, I guess it's acceptable, but only just. With some tweaks on the line pressure it's not too bad combined with some VVT tweaks it's not bad for a 3.0L. I guess with some more work, the shift feel might be improved more, but it'd still never match a manual for driver experience.

[Wonky]

Just read a VF SSV wagon pulled 216rwkw stock !! So 20% driveline loss from 270fwkw...

Oh and it was an auto !!!

Aren't the autos 260fwkw? If so that's only 17% loss which is pretty good considering the figures I typically see bandied about are mid 20s for A6. FWIW my L76 A6 ute pulled 201rwkw stock on Chev's dyno, a 23% loss.

[evil_ss]

216 RWKW is a good number for an A6, my M6 had a 18% power loss when it was stock (221 RWKW)

[MickStephens]

No way, the line already switches between auto and manual for the utes and sedans, how is doing a manual wagon going to slow the production? Tooling, surely this also already exists as this section of the car would be common on all body types. I reckon I'm lucky to see 10-20% of VE Wagons with a towbar, can't see that being the reason.

Only reason is money. Holden are hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Trust me, its money driven...

Sold 3 Auto V8 VF's today :)

[jaykay]

Aren't the autos 260fwkw? If so that's only 17% loss which is pretty good considering the figures I typically see bandied about are mid 20s for A6. FWIW my L76 A6 ute pulled 201rwkw stock on Chev's dyno, a 23% loss.

Thanks Gaz was my bad...260fwkw AFM in auto

[Marco]

In a "perfect world" people could buy whatever they want, and issues like balancing engineering, manufacturing and marketing costs vs return on investment wouldn't be an issue.
Why was there a VE V8 manual wagon, but no VF version?
The answer isn't that hard to find.
VE was developed in a period of prosperity for large local cars, when many thousands were still being sold each month. There was easily enough sales to justify covering many of the various sales possibilities- even the low volume ones like this one.
The large car class has since dived, and more and more people are migrating to auto's as well.
Some have gone to other brands. What have you missed out on doing so? No "grunt"? Bit small? Handles like a truck?
End of the day you ALWAYS have to weigh up what you gain and what you lose between different options. Rarely ever will one car tick every single box!

Come on. I know you think Holden can do no wrong and the customer is never right, but in this case people are not asking for a new variant or a hitherto unbuilt combination, they are asking for something for which all the components already exist and were regularly put together in that combination in the VE.

I could understand if there was some technical reason why it wouldn't work in the VF, or there was some engineering work needed to make a manual VF wagon work that couldn't be justified on sales, but none has been offered.

I cannot understand an argument that it would cost Holden too much to do something it was already doing, or that it is not worth Holden chasing a few hundred extra sales a year at a time when it needs every last sale and then some,

[powerd]

I could understand if there was some technical reason why it wouldn't work in the VF, or there was some engineering work needed e,

My understanding from talking to engineers at Holden and Mitsubishi (in the days of the 380) is that every model and drivetrain has to be engineered and certified separately if there are weight and other differences. Imagine the issues for NVH and durability testing etc. that multiple drivetrains in the SS would generate. Most people have no idea what goes into making a modern car work and deliver the class objectives and manufacturer standards for NVH, durability etc. And there are production complexities and marketing costs. Which is why most manufacturers are reducing complexity in their ranges. Particularly in low volume vehicles. Because of the low volume, Holden has little money to spend on development. And the Commodore is a ridiculously low volume for a mass market car. No wonder they want to reduce complexity.

Holden are now making say about 45=50.000 vehicles pa off their platform plus a modest number of Camaros which don't share a huge amount share the platform. VAG make about 4.5m vehicles of their Golf 5/6 platform pa (shifting progressively to MQB). They have an absolutely giant amount more to spend on development. The VF only has its great new electronic network with up to date systems because GM kicked in because of needing it to be competitive in the US. Holden have acknowledged that they could never have afforded to change the electronics of the Commodore to bring it up to date. They are only surviving because of handouts as it is.

Every variation brings complexity and cost. And very few people are interested in buying manual cars any more. Check out the sales. BTW, this forum does not represent the typical new Commodore buyer, not even close. How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.

BTW, I sat in a VF SSV today at the dealer, and boy is the interior a huge improvement over the sad VE. Not that keen on the interior style but the materials and equipment are so much better its not funny. Mind you, I thought the fit of a number of things in and out was poor with some poor colour matching also. On a white car! Hopefully will get better. Had this been available last year when I bought my new car, I would have give it serious consideration.

[Tre-Cool]

theres a simple solution to all those complaining about the auto's... buy a tuning package and modify the factory shift settings.

it's not that complicated really.

I honestly think driving a manual is just a novelty now and get's annoying fast.

[Hos]

BTW, this forum does not represent the typical new Commodore buyer, not even close. How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.


I did and plan to again.

[swingtan]

theres a simple solution to all those complaining about the auto's... buy a tuning package and modify the factory shift settings.

it's not that complicated really.

I honestly think driving a manual is just a novelty now and get's annoying fast.

Been there, done that (as you know) .......

Some of us just prefer a manual. I drive one every day in Melbourne traffic and it rarely gets annoying. I like knowing what gear I'm in just by where the gear stick sits, no need to look at the dash, you just know. I like that the gear I choose, is the gear I choose and I can skip gears if I feel like it and still know exactly what gear is in use. I like "preempting" the required gear when coming into corners etc and I like the additional engine braking.

I know that the A6 has manual shift mode, but it's still sluggish on the response to shifts. It's good, but not great. I also know that Holden need to build to the biggest market, so understand why they have done this. It's a better option to Holden going the same way as Ford.... I may just need to go a Redline sedan instead, but it won't be a really "happy" choice. On the other hand, the missus would love the auto, which just goes to show that autos are for girls...... :hide: oh, and drag racers.


BTW, this forum does not represent the typical new Commodore buyer, not even close. How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.


Seriously? Have you read the http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?163994-So-Who-Has-Ordered-A-VF-Gen-F thread? It's now into its second page.

[jaykay]

Seriously? Have you read the http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?163994-So-Who-Has-Ordered-A-VF-Gen-F thread? It's now into its second page.

Good thread that one !!!! :dance: No VF sportwagons on the list...1 x Tourer so far

[swingtan]

Good thread that one !!!! :dance: No VF sportwagons on the list...1 x Tourer so far

I was referring to "How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet." not specifically Sportwagons......

[Marco]

My understanding from talking to engineers at Holden and Mitsubishi (in the days of the 380) is that every model and drivetrain has to be engineered and certified separately if there are weight and other differences. Imagine the issues for NVH and durability testing etc. that multiple drivetrains in the SS would generate. Most people have no idea what goes into making a modern car work and deliver the class objectives and manufacturer standards for NVH, durability etc. And there are production complexities and marketing costs. Which is why most manufacturers are reducing complexity in their ranges. Particularly in low volume vehicles. Because of the low volume, Holden has little money to spend on development. And the Commodore is a ridiculously low volume for a mass market car. No wonder they want to reduce complexity.

I can understand this argument, and it's what I was getting at when I said "or there was some engineering work needed to make a manual VF wagon work that couldn't be justified on sales"; I just find it a bit hard to understand on a variant that already existed. The V8 engine and manual gearbox have not, as I understand it, changed at all from VEII to VF. HSV continues to offer this combination. I understand what you're saying, but it would make more sense as a justification for not offering, say, an SV6 manual wagon which had not been built before, not an SS manual wagon which was available last month.


How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.

I only buy new. (Old Beetle excepted, obviously!)


BTW, I sat in a VF SSV today at the dealer, and boy is the interior a huge improvement over the sad VE. Not that keen on the interior style but the materials and equipment are so much better its not funny. Mind you, I thought the fit of a number of things in and out was poor with some poor colour matching also. On a white car! Hopefully will get better. Had this been available last year when I bought my new car, I would have give it serious consideration.

Which dealer?

[planetdavo]

Come on. I know you think Holden can do no wrong and the customer is never right, but in this case people are not asking for a new variant or a hitherto unbuilt combination, they are asking for something for which all the components already exist and were regularly put together in that combination in the VE.

I could understand if there was some technical reason why it wouldn't work in the VF, or there was some engineering work needed to make a manual VF wagon work that couldn't be justified on sales, but none has been offered.

I cannot understand an argument that it would cost Holden too much to do something it was already doing, or that it is not worth Holden chasing a few hundred extra sales a year at a time when it needs every last sale and then some,

You can think what you want, but you would be da fool for thinking it.
Wake up to the meaning of "commercial realities".
Introducing a manual WAGON with L77 is NOT an existing product in VF! The box might be "existing", the tailshaft might be "existing" etc etc, but they are only parts. They are the cheap bits.
Introducing this option would require at the bare minimum a new wagon specific main wiring harness, new ESP program, and a new round of engineering validation. Wagon needs a different harness to sedan, and the HSV one isn't suitable either as it's made for different options.
So, MILLIONS of dollars!
For a handful of sales. Divide that across what, a couple of hundred sales a year AT BEST? 200 sales for (unrealistically) "only" one million dollars development cost would be $5000 per car in the first year before costs are covered. Two million would be $5000 per car for two years before costs are covered. Three million would be $5000 per car for three years before costs are covered. And finally, whereas HSV can charge a healthy premium for their cars to redeem costs over a small sales projection, Holden CANNOT.
Don't think it would cost 3 million to launch a manual VF V8 wagon option?
Think again!!!

[Brett240]

Good thread that one !!!! :dance: No VF sportwagons on the list...1 x Tourer so far

thats me :dance:

i was in a position before buying where my comfortable price range was right in the middle of the tourer and an SSV wagon. No SSv Manual literally forced my hand into the HSV and into a slightly uncomforble monthly repayment.

I was briefly in panic attack mode that there would be no Tourer manual either. Honestly if the tourer was auto only as well i probably would not have bough a commodore at all, previsouly i had an MY10 SSV wagon manual.

[sjhugh]

And suddenly the tone of another interesting thread turns for the worst.


.

[Marco]

You can think what you want, but you would be da fool for thinking it.
Wake up to the meaning of "commercial realities".
Introducing a manual WAGON with L77 is NOT an existing product in VF! The box might be "existing", the tailshaft might be "existing" etc etc, but they are only parts. They are the cheap bits.
Introducing this option would require at the bare minimum a new wagon specific main wiring harness, new ESP program, and a new round of engineering validation. Wagon needs a different harness to sedan, and the HSV one isn't suitable either as it's made for different options.
So, MILLIONS of dollars!
For a handful of sales. Divide that across what, a couple of hundred sales a year AT BEST? 200 sales for (unrealistically) "only" one million dollars development cost would be $5000 per car in the first year before costs are covered. Two million would be $5000 per car for two years before costs are covered. Three million would be $5000 per car for three years before costs are covered. And finally, whereas HSV can charge a healthy premium for their cars to redeem costs over a small sales projection, Holden CANNOT.
Don't think it would cost 3 million to launch a manual VF V8 wagon option?
Think again!!!

Thanks. I appreciate the effort you've gone to in order to better explain your point, and I agree that you might be right. I hadn't considered the wiring loom etc. This is the sort of constructive answer I was hoping someone would provide; it's a bit of a shame that you had to top and tail it with abrasive language but on the other hand, I probably didn't help with my opening remarks in reply to you. For the good of the forum and this thread in particular, I won't make any further comment. Thanks again.

[jaykay]

And suddenly the tone of another interesting thread turns for the worst.


.

As Pauline Hanson would say "Please Explain?"

[VYSHSV8]

As Pauline Hanson would say "Please Explain?"

I think it is directed at PD explanation
Not putting a manual in a wagon is absolute crap and pd explanation about this and that is crap...
It's the same bloody running gear as VE only interior and electronics changed inside

[Tre-Cool]

and considering the engine mangement and vehicle wiring looms are 2 ENTIRELY different systems...

If anything i think it's more due to the fact that the manual motors dont have the stupid DOD system in them. So they would need to have 2 different motors. (easily fixed if they put the bloody ls3 in)

[Wonky]

If anything i think it's more due to the fact that the manual motors dont have the stupid DOD system in them. So they would need to have 2 different motors. (easily fixed if they put the bloody ls3 in)

I think all engines now (L77) have DOD/AFM hardware in them, just that the manuals don't have it activated.

[Smitty]

I was referring to "How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet." not specifically Sportwagons......

personally...one
plus 11 for work :)

[cashie]

You can think what you want, but you would be da fool for thinking it.
Wake up to the meaning of "commercial realities".
Introducing a manual WAGON with L77 is NOT an existing product in VF! The box might be "existing", the tailshaft might be "existing" etc etc, but they are only parts. They are the cheap bits.
Introducing this option would require at the bare minimum a new wagon specific main wiring harness, new ESP program, and a new round of engineering validation. Wagon needs a different harness to sedan, and the HSV one isn't suitable either as it's made for different options.
So, MILLIONS of dollars!
For a handful of sales. Divide that across what, a couple of hundred sales a year AT BEST? 200 sales for (unrealistically) "only" one million dollars development cost would be $5000 per car in the first year before costs are covered. Two million would be $5000 per car for two years before costs are covered. Three million would be $5000 per car for three years before costs are covered. And finally, whereas HSV can charge a healthy premium for their cars to redeem costs over a small sales projection, Holden CANNOT.
Don't think it would cost 3 million to launch a manual VF V8 wagon option?
Think again!!!

Hardware like wiring harnesses surely could have been better thought out to save money, why not have a generic harness or at least a base harness with extensions to suit either manual or auto?
ESP would require work though, but surely in this day and age of computer modelling etc this is no longer a huge cost?
If it actually is millions of dollars to do, sadly this is why local manufacturings days are numbered.

[LJCHSV]

I loved my auto SSV Wagon as it made getting blowies from dates/girls that i was seeing whilst driving that much easier & will therefore be one of the main reasons why i'll never get a manual car for everyday driving ever again....i just wish holden would bring out a more slimline console to make it more comfortable for the girls leaning over making the whole experience even better again!!! I wouldnt be dissapointed at owning an Auto Tourer or SSV Wagon in the slightest. Broom Broom.

[macca_779]

The numbers Davo has put forward he no doubt pulled out his arse. But he does have a point. Holden is in the business of making money. Pleasing the minority of enthusiasts like us comes firmly after that.

Clearly they have evaluated the cost of developing and offering the M6 (as little or large as it may be) for the wagon as not being viable due to demand that was calculated from VE. Whether or not that changes is firmly in the hands of those walking into dealers and requesting it. Have enough people walk away and I'm sure Holden will change their view. Blame the bean counters on this one.

[sjhugh]

As Pauline Hanson would say "Please Explain?"


The members were involved in a discussion until again they are treated like children and lectured too by someone who wants us to believe they are a professional Manufacturing Engineer & Production Manager.

It’s the self-edifying tone that ruffles the feathers and there is a long history of LS1 threads being kill because of it.

But if it sounds good I guess most people will be happy to fall for it regardless of how poor the source is.



.

[sjhugh]

Holden is in the business of making money. Pleasing the minority of enthusiasts like us comes firmly after that.


This makes more sense to me.

My uninformed belief is that it’s no more than a cost saving born from market research and prior sales history. It’s as simple as that.

Manuals are not as popular as enthusiasts like to think.

Check out the who’s buying a VF thread. The auto option for the GTS is winning.
So far there are 4 x Autos – 2 x Manuals

Personally I would go for the manual even if it’s a bit slower as I’d prefer the additional driving involvement a manual offers. But that thread shows I’m clearly in the minority.


.

[ssv402]

theres a simple solution to all those complaining about the auto's... buy a tuning package and modify the factory shift settings.

it's not that complicated really.

I honestly think driving a manual is just a novelty now and get's annoying fast.


I entirely agree. The days of speed cameras, road hogs, and impatient morons make an auto very relaxing, so long as its well calibrated.

The vf box has been getting very good reviews, one I have read has rated it over the manual, I cannot remember if it was for the 6 or 8 though... Sport/Manual modes in the autos these days satisfy a majority of potential manual buyers in my opinion.

LJCHSV summed it up perfectly though! Good work! :P People have realised the benefits of auto.

[steve_t]

I'd also prefer a manual even if it's slower than an auto. I'd just get too bored in an auto and I prefer the sound of a manual (though a V8 auto is a million times more OK than a 4 pot auto). I'm lucky to live in a smaller city so traffic's OK. If I lived in a big city and had heavy traffic to deal with, I'd begrudgingly take the auto

[Brett240]

I'd also prefer a manual even if it's slower than an auto. I'd just get too bored in an auto and I prefer the sound of a manual (though a V8 auto is a million times more OK than a 4 pot auto). I'm lucky to live in a smaller city so traffic's OK. If I lived in a big city and had heavy traffic to deal with, I'd begrudgingly take the auto

I deal with 5 day a week Sydney peak hour traffic and still prefer manual. that 1% of the time I get to enjoy the manual makes it all worth it. Auto's for me don't feel like proper performance car's. I do think twice a lot while pushing the clutch in out 1000 times in stop start traffic though, so I can see the auto appeal...

[deanxr]

I mentioned this to the salesman today and he said the same thing..most bought autos

[jaykay]

I mentioned this to the salesman today and he said the same thing..most bought autos

I spend many hours on the M1..... And when I was driving a manual it annoyed the crap outta me so auto for me now

[Number55]

I would suggest the the wiring harness an excuse for extra cost would be false.
Given the Tourer is available in Manual....... where does the donor car come from... yes holdens production line.....
The only eason that has any credit for cost saving is testing costs.
There is no doubt holden need to make sacrifices to streamline the busniess, specially as we will get the very handy price drop. It just shits me to tears its the bloody model i wanted that had to be sacrificed!!

[steve_t]

I spend many hours on the M1..... And when I was driving a manual it annoyed the crap outta me so auto for me now

Many hours... getting old :hide:

[powerd]

Many hours... getting old :hide:

It happens to all of us..............at exactly the same rate!

I too enjoy driving a manual and I have been doing so for the last 3 years. But I wasn't commuting into inner Sydney either during that period. However, later last year I traded my car in and now I am driving a DSG equipped and wouldn't go back - better performance than the manual, better economy and changes faster (much faster than any manual or auto), precise and foolproof, and in Sydney's stop start traffic no tiresome clutch. Great!

If I want involvement, I'll ride the motorbike and really have fun and serious grunt. Frankly, unless I was buying an MX5, or a track car or a Clubman, I wouldn't bother with a clutched manual these days, much as I enjoyed my last car. Give me a auto-clutch manual anyday.

Each to their own. I think manuals will die completely though as they get replaced by auto-clutch manuals. Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc etc use them, and the enthusiast drivers buy them because of their efficiency.

[Smitty]

I would suggest the the wiring harness an excuse for extra cost would be false.
Given the Tourer is available in Manual....... where does the donor car come from... yes holdens production line.....
The only eason that has any credit for cost saving is testing costs.
There is no doubt holden need to make sacrifices to streamline the busniess, specially as we will get the very handy price drop. It just shits me to tears its the bloody model i wanted that had to be sacrificed!!

am going to the official VF (and Malibu) drive day with Holden in about 3 weeks
and yes I will be raising this issue...as I have had manual Holden wagons since a HZ 5.0 Prem in 1978
thru VB VC VH VN etc ...to VEs (at last count about 16 in all) ..as it also shits me to tears :)

[steve_t]

I too enjoy driving a manual and I have been doing so for the last 3 years. But I wasn't commuting into inner Sydney either during that period. However, later last year I traded my car in and now I am driving a DSG equipped and wouldn't go back - better performance than the manual, better economy and changes faster (much faster than any manual or auto), precise and foolproof, and in Sydney's stop start traffic no tiresome clutch. Great!


Joking about the old ;)

Not sure about foolproof :hide:
http://www.caradvice.com.au/235101/volkswagen-australia-recalls-25000-cars-over-dsg-defect/

[powerd]

Joking about the old ;)

Not sure about foolproof :hide:
http://www.caradvice.com.au/235101/volkswagen-australia-recalls-25000-cars-over-dsg-defect/

Unfortunately, Steve, what has been lost in all the kerfuffle over DSG is that only some transmissions, in just some cars, are potentially problematic. The recall is limited to 7 speed wet clutch DSGs in certain vehicles, because of the model of transmission used. Mine is a 6 speed dry clutch DSG of the model used behind the V6, so is not affected. Is actually a damn good thing to use and durable.

Yes, foolproof. Just needs servicing every 60,000kms with the correct (and not cheap) fluid and filter.

[steve_t]

Unfortunately, Steve, what has been lost in all the kerfuffle over DSG is that only some transmissions, in just some cars, are potentially problematic. The recall is limited to 7 speed wet clutch DSGs in certain vehicles, because of the model of transmission used. Mine is a 6 speed dry clutch DSG of the model used behind the V6, so is not affected. Is actually a damn good thing to use and durable.

Yes, foolproof. Just needs servicing every 60,000kms with the correct (and not cheap) fluid and filter.

You're obviously on to it. I've driven a 7 speed DSG Golf and it was bloody brilliant IMHO. Pity about the recall in regards to what it does to VW's reputation but these things happen. Good to know the dry clutch model is better