Choice dilemma..new vf ssv redline or 2011/12 s3 r8 clubbie [Archive]

offshore

09-07-2013, 09:20 AM

I made the choice and got the VF redline because I just preferred the interior and the car overall am a bit disappointed we didnt get the LS3 where as the one that went to the US got it. But I plan on getting the Harrop FDFI 1900 or 2300 installed so I wont be short on power. Im not planning a massive amount of mods maybe wheels and brakes and fuel system and exhaust to go with the supercharger.

Interceptor

09-07-2013, 09:26 AM

I had the same dilemma so i drove them back to back at the local dealer
The HSV definitely has the better more aggressive road presence but the interior of the VF is just so so much better i felt i couldnt part with all that money for the 'old' HSV.
Additionally, performance wise there was nothing in it between the two judged by my wife and I.. The VF redline really is an amazing package for the coin.

Interesting that SmH Drive and performance drive(youtube) have got between 4.8 and 5.1 sec for the 0to100 for the VF redline which is line ball with the E3 HSV's.. Also the latest Wheels has the new Gen F 340kw R8 'only' getting 5 sec for 0to100.. Seems odd.

team illucid

09-07-2013, 11:08 AM

Additionally, performance wise there was nothing in it between the two judged by my wife and I.. The VF redline really is an amazing package for the coin..

So the VF SSV out-brakes the E3 ?

Interceptor

09-07-2013, 11:39 AM

So the VF SSV out-brakes the E3 ?

Driving around town it wasn't an obvious difference but im sure on the track you'd notice the extra braking of the hsv

AD07

09-07-2013, 12:15 PM

Driving around town it wasn't an obvious difference but im sure on the track you'd notice the extra braking of the hsv

"IF"........you ever take your car to the track.

Interceptor

09-07-2013, 12:40 PM

"IF"........you ever take your car to the track.

Yes well whilst i'd love to take my car to the track its very unlikely to happen and therefore I'd happily take the front brembos on the redline

team illucid

09-07-2013, 01:06 PM

Driving around town it wasn't an obvious difference but im sure on the track you'd notice the extra braking of the hsv

Yep, I do get your point but I recently had to hit the brakes in a situation that prevented physical harm (school zone - 40kms). I have no doubts the big HSV brakes prevented a tragedy that cheaper brakes would not have.

So for me it is not always about the track.

XUV

09-07-2013, 01:42 PM

Yep, I do get your point but I recently had to hit the brakes in a situation that prevented physical harm (school zone - 40kms). I have no doubts the big HSV brakes prevented a tragedy that cheaper brakes would not have.

So for me it is not always about the track.

If It's one thing HSV do do well , it's brakes, but 355 mm brembo's ain't to shabby.

I's say , depends what you future power needs or wants are. 6.0 VS 6.3.

The Redline does seem to be a good bang for ya buck , but the HSV prices should fall too, offering great value and hey a HSV is a HSV .

Interceptor

09-07-2013, 02:04 PM

If It's one thing HSV do do well , it's brakes, but 355 mm brembo's ain't to shabby.

I's say , depends what you future power needs or wants are. 6.0 VS 6.3.

The Redline does seem to be a good bang for ya buck , but the HSV prices should fall too, offering great value and hey a HSV is a HSV .

Agreed.. I'd still prefer a new Gen F HSV :)
I tell ya one thing which intrigues me is the power figures we are seeing out of the new VF's vs E3 HSV's (haven't seen gen f dyno results yet).. There's a clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG1yBr3k6DE which shows a new VF SS run 235kw stock. With the addition of a Ramjet and a tune it goes up to 259kw on 91 octane fuel and stock exhaust.. damn impressive!

XUV

09-07-2013, 02:43 PM

nice numbers.
He touches on the electric steering adding to power, holden should go electric water pump too and maybe a KERS in the future.

Wonky

09-07-2013, 02:55 PM

Agreed.. I'd still prefer a new Gen F HSV :).
:yup: :drool:

There's a clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG1yBr3k6DE which shows a new VF SS run 235kw stock.

I've seen quite a few VE 6.0 run 235rwkw and slightly higher stock on Chev's dyno, which is not a happy dyno.

JimmyXR6T04

09-07-2013, 04:02 PM

I'm in a similar dilemma, except i'm tossing up between an VF SSV, a demo/low km FPV GT or new/demo GS. I really want the GTS, but due to other commitments right now it's not plausible. It will be in 12-24 months though. My lease is up in March next year, so my options are either pay out my caprice which i'm considering, or lease an SSV or GT for 24 months until i have the funds for the GTS.

If go the SSV i will have it cammed/tuned with full exhaust prior to picking it up, and it will end up costing just shy of 50k i reckon. A GT will be about 50-55k and the GS 45-50k. Love the new VF, but also keen for the supercharged ford... Leaning towards a cammed VF though... Thought about camming the caprice, but not sure it would really suit, plus due to AFM it becomes even more costly and all money will be out of my pocket, not the lease company!

It's great to have such variety. But keen as on the GTS down the track, unless the new FPV significantly lifts its game!

Any thoughts on which way i should go?? sorry for thread hijack, but sort of on topic haha

185iboy

09-07-2013, 05:24 PM

To the OP I reckon go LS3 HSV...

JimmyXR6T04 you don't need an over-teched VF when you can get a S/C GT!

Troutman

09-07-2013, 05:40 PM

In light of the price reductions, personally I would aim to buy new rather than secondhand from this point. Especially considering Holden needing our support to stay in business.

As an aside, the VF SS has weight reduction that would probably make it surprisingly competitive with an older HSV in overall performance. Then you've got the full warranty, improved technology and the latest-and-greatest factor...

offshore

09-07-2013, 07:04 PM

To the OP I reckon go LS3 HSV...

JimmyXR6T04 you don't need an over-teched VF when you can get a S/C GT!

Yea but you can do what im doing get an over teched SSV Redline and supercharge it haha

redvxr8clubby

09-07-2013, 07:09 PM

As much as I like a HSV, I think the Redline would probably be my choice, unless perhaps you don't want leather and sunroof.

Brett240

09-07-2013, 07:23 PM

I sat in a VF SSV redline wagon on the weekend and its a no brainer - go the VF, they are amazing. it might not have the straight line grunt of the clubbie and a little softer but its just a MUCH nicer car! and I thought the photo's were impressive...

JimmyXR6T04

10-07-2013, 05:48 AM

To the OP I reckon go LS3 HSV...

JimmyXR6T04 you don't need an over-teched VF when you can get a S/C GT!

I really don't know what to do... i suppose if i opt for the GT or GS with its inferior tech/interior then i'll really appreciate the GTS further down the track... if i go the VF now, the GTS might only feel like an engine upgrade in comparison...

JimmyXR6T04

10-07-2013, 05:50 AM

Yea but you can do what im doing get an over teched SSV Redline and supercharge it haha

I thought of that, but to S/C an SSV i'll be up for close to 60k... Hence the reason i'd probably just cam and exhaust it...

Interceptor

10-07-2013, 07:57 AM

I thought of that, but to S/C an SSV i'll be up for close to 60k... Hence the reason i'd probably just cam and exhaust it...

cam and exhaust in a fantastic package like the VF redline would be the ultimate bang for your buck.. Hhmm has got me thinking, maybe i should do that!! How much for a cam package these days??

team illucid

10-07-2013, 08:43 AM

I've seen quite a few VE 6.0 run 235rwkw and slightly higher stock on Chev's dyno, which is not a happy dyno.

Spot on mate, those VF power figures are expected, not exceptional.

Similarly I think the LS3 will be slightly higher than the E1-E3 series as they seem to have already dropped a better tune in. Tuned with OTR will still net around the 290-300 rwkw mark.

team illucid

10-07-2013, 08:45 AM

How much for a cam package these days?? under 3K for a VE so wont be much more for the VF

whitels1ss

10-07-2013, 09:11 AM

under 3K for a VE so wont be much more for the VF
:yup::yup::yup: Yeah plenty of workshops are doing supply, fit and tune for under $3.000
and I would expect a workshop to charge around the same to do a VF also.;)

brasher

10-07-2013, 09:31 AM

including DOD delete and associated hardware?

JimmyXR6T04

10-07-2013, 09:43 AM

including DOD delete and associated hardware?

I think DOD delete is an extra ~$1000 or so... If i was to go this route, i'd opt for a manual SSV and that would save me the hassle of the DOD delete.

Very tempted to go the SSV with cam, tune, OTR and full exhaust... Should be able to get away with it for about 6-7k... Making my total spend with my lease company about 48k... to go redline will be about 52k, which would also be a sweet package.

brasher

10-07-2013, 09:58 AM

I think DOD delete is an extra ~$1000 or so... If i was to go this route, i'd opt for a manual SSV and that would save me the hassle of the DOD delete.

Very tempted to go the SSV with cam, tune, OTR and full exhaust... Should be able to get away with it for about 6-7k... Making my total spend with my lease company about 48k... to go redline will be about 52k, which would also be a sweet package.

unfortunately, VE S2 and VF manuals are L77 so you have the AFM junk in it no matter what the transmission :(

team illucid

10-07-2013, 09:59 AM

I think DOD delete is an extra ~$1000 or so... If i was to go this route, i'd opt for a manual SSV and that would save me the hassle of the DOD delete.

Very tempted to go the SSV with cam, tune, OTR and full exhaust... Should be able to get away with it for about 6-7k... Making my total spend with my lease company about 48k... to go redline will be about 52k, which would also be a sweet package.

If you are leasing, why not go the Clubsport and do the same thing?. Better yet, get a personal loan @ around 7% fixed, do the log book method, and smile heartily every tax time ;)

Interceptor

10-07-2013, 10:00 AM

:yup::yup::yup: Yeah plenty of workshops are doing supply, fit and tune for under $3.000
and I would expect a workshop to charge around the same to do a VF also.;)

Wow didn't know it was that cheap - anyone you can recommend in Sydney?

team illucid

10-07-2013, 10:05 AM

Wow didn't know it was that cheap - anyone you can recommend in Sydney?

Check the sponsor section - plenty of choice for you in Sydney.

JimmyXR6T04

10-07-2013, 10:20 AM

unfortunately, VE S2 and VF manuals are L77 so you have the AFM junk in it no matter what the transmission :(

oh spewing, didn't realise that... So you'd still need to upgrade the parts even though AFM isn't active?

If you are leasing, why not go the Clubsport and do the same thing?. Better yet, get a personal loan @ around 7% fixed, do the log book method, and smile heartily every tax time ;)

Unfortunately i can only do a novated lease, and due to my employer any car that comes in over the luxury car tax bracket means i need to cough up cash up front. For example, the GT 335 is listed at about 62k through the lease company, but i'd be expected to come up with about 5k of my own... A clubby will def be over the luxury car tax bracket, especially once i include mods. That's why i need to find a second hand, demo GT or something under the LCT bracket. I could use the wife's employer but she has a lease in place until 2015, and i'm impatient...

When the time comes to buy a GTS i won't be leasing it, or if i do lease, it won't be through my employer, i'll use the wifes!

team illucid

10-07-2013, 10:31 AM

Unfortunately i can only do a novated lease, and due to my employer any car that comes in over the luxury car tax bracket means i need to cough up cash up front. !

Fair enough.

Vulture

10-07-2013, 10:36 AM

I have no doubts the big HSV brakes prevented a tragedy that cheaper brakes would not have.

Sorry but this is totally wrong. The big brakes on performance cars only really help with heat dissipation. The actual braking force on any modern vehicle can easily apply for one emergency stop. Where big brakes excel is in repeated application without fade. Far more important in your emergency stop in a school zone would be the tyres and weight of the car along with suspension setup etc.

team illucid

10-07-2013, 11:05 AM

Sorry but this is totally wrong. The big brakes on performance cars only really help with heat dissipation. The actual braking force on any modern vehicle can easily apply for one emergency stop. Where big brakes excel is in repeated application without fade. Far more important in your emergency stop in a school zone would be the tyres and weight of the car along with suspension setup etc.

That doesn't make sense. Having upgraded brakes previously on cars, they all pull up in a shorter distance with better brakes, or am I missing some point. The size helps with spreading the heat over a wider system (faster cooldown) and the vents help with removing heat, but surely more rotor, better clamping == stopping in a shorter distance?

Vulture

10-07-2013, 11:10 AM

That doesn't make sense. Having upgraded brakes previously on cars, they all pull up in a shorter distance with better brakes, or am I missing some point. The size helps with spreading the heat over a wider system (faster cooldown) and the vents help with removing heat, but surely more rotor, better clamping == stopping in a shorter distance?

Have you actually measured it?
Not unless you're braking from very high speed. Performance cars will tend to pull up shorter on a single brake mostly due to sticky tyres. The brakes probably have a lot better 'feel' but usually won't stop in a shorter distance for one application, especially from sane speeds. It's a very common misconception. Jump into any car and see how easy it is to apply max braking.

team illucid

10-07-2013, 11:19 AM

Have you actually measured it?
Not unless you're braking from very high speed. Performance cars will tend to pull up shorter on a single brake mostly due to sticky tyres. The brakes probably have a lot better 'feel' but usually won't stop in a shorter distance for one application, especially from sane speeds. It's a very common misconception.

No, I have never taken a scientific approach. It has always been SOP testing (i.e. closer to the corner on my private road that I needed to brake to achieve the same result from previous braking efforts). Obviously a very common misconception.

So for day to day driving, the spending of 6-10K is wasted on better brake kit packages and should instead go into suspension and tyres?

Vulture

10-07-2013, 11:27 AM

So for day to day driving, the spending of 6-10K is wasted on better brake kit packages and should instead go into suspension and tyres?

For sure, but who doesn't love the look of big brakes and for track days would come in handy.

I've only experienced fade on the road a couple of times but I was driving at highly illegal speeds. I recall in my old SAAB 9000 turbo years ago, a couple of high speed applications and the pedal went all soft and I shat myself trying to slow down. But you can experience fade on just one application of the brakes from high speed, definitely. So always a good investment in a performance car but the honest answer would be not from legal speeds in a modern car for one application.

Interceptor

10-07-2013, 12:10 PM

For sure, but who doesn't love the look of big brakes and for track days would come in handy.

I've only experienced fade on the road a couple of times but I was driving at highly illegal speeds. I recall in my old SAAB 9000 turbo years ago, a couple of high speed applications and the pedal went all soft and I shat myself trying to slow down. But you can experience fade on just one application of the brakes from high speed, definitely. So always a good investment in a performance car but the honest answer would be not from legal speeds in a modern car for one application.

I tend to agree, for average joes on average roads keeping the tyre as well connected to the road and with the biggest contact patch has always been my thoughts on optimum handling and braking. That being said if I was regularly doing high speed braking then I would sign up for the biggest bloody brakes I could find haha

jc_sv8

10-07-2013, 12:24 PM

ABS would be the telling factor. Who jumps on them so hard every day that ABS even cuts in?
Better tyres and suspension would be more beneficial than bigger brakes, unless you've done all this, the brakes will be the least of your problems.

Wonky

10-07-2013, 01:08 PM

Sorry but this is totally wrong. The big brakes on performance cars only really help with heat dissipation. The actual braking force on any modern vehicle can easily apply for one emergency stop. Where big brakes excel is in repeated application without fade. Far more important in your emergency stop in a school zone would be the tyres and weight of the car along with suspension setup etc.

From all I've read that's partly correct. Big brakes do actually help on initial application from moderate speeds too, hence the VE HSV stopping figures being thrown about as a selling point when the VE was first released. However, where they really shine is in repeated high speed applications.

amckiwi

10-07-2013, 01:08 PM

:yup: :drool:

I've seen quite a few VE 6.0 run 235rwkw and slightly higher stock on Chev's dyno, which is not a happy dyno.

Yup 237 here with very low k's

redvxr8clubby

10-07-2013, 07:12 PM

I would be very confident my VX R8 will stop quicker than a standard brake Commodore, my VE SV6 has crap brakes, as did my VX II 5.7 Calais before it and VS Exec. I've only got to drive the SV6 a few hundred metres down the road to be reminded of the crap standard brakes. I also have an 06 Lancer, and a drum (rear) brake Fiesta and they both stop much better than a Commodore. I recall a road test some years ago comparing brakes of a Clubsport to standard Commodore and while the Clubsport was better, it wasn't by much. Can't remember now where I read this, but I think it would have been a Wheels or Motor test.

Brett240

10-07-2013, 07:40 PM

At the slow speeds we drive at day to day on the roads, modern cars are limited by traction, not brake size. If you can engage ABS in a commodore with standard brakes at those speeds then bigger brakes wont help, only more traction will help it slow down.

Only at high speed or repeated hard stopping do giant brakes become an advantage

Youngy789

10-07-2013, 08:48 PM

I would personally for the VF redline, I don't think you would be disappointed, you are also getting a new car which I guess could be argued as a negative (ie losing value when you drive out the showroom door). The interior of the VF is miles ahead of the VE and given you spend most of the time in the car when driving it I think this is fairly important. I think if you went for the VE you would miss the tech and the interior of the VF

Good luck with the decision

Cheers
Youngy

SimonNQ

11-07-2013, 11:41 AM

As someone that has upgraded from the standard brakes on a VE SSV ( non Redline ) to the Bigger HSV brakes, I can let you know that the biggest change is in pedal feel !. The HSV Brakes require far less pressure to slow the car down on a day to day basis. I would never go back to the standard brakes again. Not only is the stopping substantially increased, but the amount of travel the brake pedal has to go through before any slowing down of the car has also been substantially reduced. This gives an immediately available feeling of confidence that the brakes will be able to stop the car successfully.

Big brakes are not just for stopping the car while racing, the feeling in the pedal and confidence is felt every time you drive the car.

Vulture

11-07-2013, 12:03 PM

It is a tough choice. The HSV has taken its first big depreciation hit but the SSV hasn't.
Brand new car Vs second hand.
HSV vs Holden

HSV: big brakes, the LS3 (more power with equal mods), unique exterior, different diff (shorter) ratios, EDI, different body kit. It's an HSV.
Holden: minor brake upgrade, much nicer interior, HUD, it's a new car, now has staggered wheels. Auto supposed to be a lot better.

Very hard choice!
I never warmed to the look of the E2-E3 (other than the Senator which I bought). I'd probably go with the SSV Redline but it is very close.

Crusty

11-07-2013, 12:43 PM

Just drove a manual Redline edition VF, we pulled up in my mates VE SSV and the VF felt 2 cuts above, getting back into the VE was certainly a step backwards.

XUV

11-07-2013, 01:32 PM

Buy the Clubby, drive it for a year and then trade it in on a year old SSV Redline.

Drizt

11-07-2013, 01:59 PM

Buy the Clubby, drive it for a year and then trade it in on a year old SSV Redline.

I don't know if the change over costs make it feasible or not (I have no idea) ????

But that is not a bad idea.

XUV

11-07-2013, 02:14 PM

I don't know if the change over costs make it feasible or not (I have no idea) ????

But that is not a bad idea.

I was thinking the VE HSV's price slide to stabize and be less then a new VF's instant devaluation , just a thought , best of both worlds and a way to compare.