No more Holden V8?

[GR346]

Would certainly be the end of a long and glorious era if it were true - will be interesting to see what else comes to light in the next few weeks

http://www.news.com.au/business/companies/top-secret-report-reveals-newlook-holden-with-no-v8/story-fnda1bsz-1226754495206


THE Holden V8 is set to disappear from showrooms for the first time since 1968.

And the new Holden Commodore - if it gets built - will be a front-wheel-drive car with about as much pizzazz as a Toyota Camry.

A confidential South Australian Government report into Holden's manufacturing future - leaked to The Adelaide Advertiser - makes grim reading for Holden fans.

It says the company is not likely to have a rear-wheel-drive car - and therefore a V8 - beyond 2016, or 2018 at a stretch.

"The true impact of not retaining this offering is not clear. However GMH is likely to experience some sales erosion sand migration to other brands," said the report prepared by University of Adelaide Professor Goran Roos for the SA Government
When the Falcon and its performance models bow out in 2016, Ford will import the Mustang coupe from the US to appeal to the enthusiast market.

"The next gen model mix also excludes the ute variant," the report said, confirming a News Corp Australia exclusive from a fortnight ago.

If Holden keeps making cars in Australia from 2016 to 2022 it will be the first time since the first ever Holden - the 1948 "FX" - that its flagship model will be front-wheel-drive.

The front-wheel-drive car that Holden says it will call the "Commodore" will be made with mostly imported parts, the report says, putting further pressure on local parts suppliers.

That in turn is expected to force Toyota Australia's hand with a factory closure in 2017, a year after Holden and when the Camry model cycle is due to come to an end.

[Drizt]

The front-wheel-drive car that Holden says it will call the "Commodore" will be made with mostly imported parts, the report says, putting further pressure on local parts suppliers.

I will never buy a FWD holden.

Holden may as well shut up shop if this is true.

[GR346]

I dare say Ill look elsewhere (another make) too

Wonder how much this will affect the used car pricing - some of the Fords are getting stupid money for their 8's now

[Aus8]

We all know its going has been disucessed a plenty. Moral of the story is buy a brand new VF V8 and enjoy it and Keep it in immaculate condition because you will want to keep it for a very very long time!

[VYBerlinaV8]

Have a look who wrote the article.

I'm seriously considering a move back into a V8 around 2015-16, depending on whether they really will stop selling them here. If they do, a good one will hold its value well.

[BLACKVE]

Hope the US still wants rear drive cop cars.

Really V8's with afm use about the same as all the popular medium petrol SUV's around now.

Direct injection 5l would be nice

[CLUBRED]

If not RWD then they have to retire the nameplate. The heritage is more important than the marketing.

They may aswell call it the Sunbird, it will sell aswell as it did.

[GTS LSA]

I will never buy a FWD holden.

Holden may as well shut up shop if this is true.

Yep, what you said

[Marco]

Not really interested in a FWD Commodore. As I've said before, if Holden sells a Camry type of thing then I might as well go looking at other Camry types of thing, and I might decide I prefer Honda's Camry or Kia's Camry instead of Holden's Camry.

The saving grace might be that Holden's engineers do a pretty good job of making anything they touch drive well - look at the work they did on the Cruze recently for example.

Who knows, maybe in five years time this will look like the smart play, can't sell V8s forever I suppose.

[Jag530G]

And the end of HSV too. The current GTS will be one hell of a collector's item in years to come. It will benefit from having no better replacement the same way the Phase 3 didn't have a better replacement.

[SSer]

Have a look who wrote the article.

He is loving this isn't he?

:shiner:

[GTS LSA]

He is loving this isn't he?

:shiner:

Yep, same sh*t different day, having said that, i think we all know the writing is on the wall..... but standard journalism all negatives, no positives..... might get Camaro or Caddy to make up for it.

That wont replace the jobs or businesses that go bust if Holden do

[team illucid]

"ooh, I much prefer the Sporty Camry over the old Holden V8" - said by poofs Australia wide.

[Plenty]

He is loving this isn't he?

:shiner:

Do you know what I haven't even read the article but I already know it's written by Joshua Dowling.

Why would they retire the V8? It's the biggest seller of all the range. If it goes FWD the nameplate will change and in all honestly how is it going to save the Commodore anyway? There is just to much choice out there for a small scale manufacturer. Chevrolet need to take over the manufacturing side and let "Holden" design it.

[C4B]

I really hope they retire the nameplate when Commodore as we know it is put out to pasture.

Imagine driving your Commodore in years to come seeing FWD Camrydores with Commodore badges on them.... Even worse..... Camrydore "SS"

[Xjas]

Camrydores with Commodore badges on them.... Even worse..... Camrydore "SS"

Surely the first thing any self respecting FWD commodore owner would do is swap out the badges for chevy ones.

[GR346]

and what will become of the great race round Panorama??

[Jag530G]

and what will become of the great race round Panorama??

Probably not a bright future there either. Unless we get the Camaro and then we can have Camaro vs Mustang vs ???

[GTS LSA]

Probably do what Nissan does, if we have a V8 somewhere in the range of anything anywhere they will let it slide

Or go full silhouette something or other

[Red CV8 R]

Much like others have said I cant see Holden lasting much longer if they go down the path of FWD and no V8. It will not only lose them the V8 market (plus HSV) but a percentage of the guys buying SV6 because its RWD and the halo effect of the V8 and HSV models. The point of difference is gone, I see no reason to buy a GM FWD 4 or 6 over any of the other similar cars on the market, to these buyers the Holden badge is probably more of a turn off than a turn on!

It all seems very short sighted to me, it points to the fact (sadly) that they would probably be better off killing the brand then importing Chevs and selling them for cheap, only way to get market share with that product I think. I had wondered if what GM are thinking is that the Camaro will come in as the halo car for Holden and help sell all those v6 FWD sedans. However I thought they were against putting a Holden badge on a Chev performance product so then a Camaro makes no sense either. I am not even sure the Camaro would sell that well here.

[shaneo68]

same here,ive been a holden man all my life but if this is true....

[bozodos]

I really hope they retire the nameplate when Commodore as we know it is put out to pasture.

Imagine driving your Commodore in years to come seeing FWD Camrydores with Commodore badges on them.... Even worse..... Camrydore "SS"

maybe we'll get the all new Cruze SS-V lol.

Geez that guy is a wanker, only ever writes articles trashing the local car industry. Unfortunately crap like that helps mould public perception which then influences sales. That and people feeling a need to buy less safe and less economical than one would think "SUV"s.

[VNV8]

Personally I think they'd be better off stopping commodore (or Holden for that matter, but Australian assembly would be nice) production and importing other GM cars (Camaro, challenger, charger etc.), don't bother making a FWD econo-box which nobody will buy. This is what ford seem to have planned, and makes more sense to me than trying to flog a dead horse.

[korrupt]

importing other GM cars (Camaro, challenger, charger etc.)

um, only one of those is from the General...

[redvxr8clubby]

If Commodore becomes FWD I don't see myself buying one. If I was looking for medium size car ATM I think Mazda 6 most likely, or possibly Mondeo when the next model is released. If smaller I think SRI Cruze 1.6T or Mazda 3 or Focus. I have a Fiesta plus a VE SV6 and the Clubby, the Fiesta is a good drive for a small cheap car.
Edit - I been in Commodores since I bought a new VK 5 speed in 1984.

[Toddler78]

I really wish the media had something else to report on daily. neither, the consumer,GM or the government spell the end of holden (lack of support) but it will be the media's doing 100% all this negative jornalism does nothing for the confidence in the product. It was exactly the same in the 90s with Mitsubishi here in adelaide. They came up with a great car in the 380 and was the first to offer 10 year warrenty but it did nothing to save them, why? because the media had succeded in ruining the brand though daily bashings.

and this thread is a great example.... mention FWD and look at how many people that put up their hand saying oh id never buy that!. Fcuk give the guys a break and a chance and report on how good the VF is and watch sales grow

[GTSLOVER]

GM will do one of either two things.

First they will drop Holden and rebrand to their global brand, that being Chevrolet. My opinion is this will be most likely as only the die hard fan boys will punish them for killing Holden. The majority of the population could not care less. This way they will then save money as all of Holdens offerings are designed to wear the Chevrolet badge anyway. They are actually rebadged as holdens. For example the captiva, colorado, cruze, malibu, barina, spark, trax are all rebadged with the holden badge not the other way around. It makes sense for them to do this due to less cost for parts, one advertising campaign and global brand recognition for visitors to Australia, ie hire car company preferences etc.

Second option, GM will rebrand holden dealers as GM Dealers offering rebadged holdens as well as allowing the sale of other GM brands such as Chevrolet etchence the Camaro will land here as the next gen is likely to be developed for RHD markets as well. Mark Rouess or whatever his name is has already said that if the SS takes off in the States the next gen version will be American designed and made in order to appease the american public, if you have to give them something they are patriotic, so under this scenario we could see the next gen SS sedan sold here as well if it goes ahead.

GM will still offer a performance version for buyers to compete with the mustang. Yes they are coupes and may alienate some buyers but understand that these are american companies we are dealing with and in America coupes are the performance cars, always have been. The majority I think will not care and their sales will be adequate as the majority of buyers either already have the missus and kids car and the camaro, mustang is their toy car/daily driver second car or people will learn to live with the coupe as opposed to a sedan.

[Jag530G]

Reckon a move to Chev brand could well be on the cards in time. Was it on this forum many years ago where Holden's marketing department was asking about Chev badges/brand recognition? I remember something like that.

Cheers, Matthew

[C4B]

GM will do one of either two things.

First they will drop Holden and rebrand to their global brand, that being Chevrolet. My opinion is this will be most likely as only the die hard fan boys will punish them for killing Holden. The majority of the population could not care less. This way they will then save money as all of Holdens offerings are designed to wear the Chevrolet badge anyway. They are actually rebadged as holdens. For example the captiva, colorado, cruze, malibu, barina, spark, trax are all rebadged with the holden badge not the other way around. It makes sense for them to do this due to less cost for parts, one advertising campaign and global brand recognition for visitors to Australia, ie hire car company preferences etc.

Second option, GM will rebrand holden dealers as GM Dealers offering rebadged holdens as well as allowing the sale of other GM brands such as Chevrolet etchence the Camaro will land here as the next gen is likely to be developed for RHD markets as well. Mark Rouess or whatever his name is has already said that if the SS takes off in the States the next gen version will be American designed and made in order to appease the american public, if you have to give them something they are patriotic, so under this scenario we could see the next gen SS sedan sold here as well if it goes ahead.

GM will still offer a performance version for buyers to compete with the mustang. Yes they are coupes and may alienate some buyers but understand that these are american companies we are dealing with and in America coupes are the performance cars, always have been. The majority I think will not care and their sales will be adequate as the majority of buyers either already have the missus and kids car and the camaro, mustang is their toy car/daily driver second car or people will learn to live with the coupe as opposed to a sedan.

I suspect a move away from the Holden branding would be a wise move post Commodore. It's not like the other imported vehicles in the Holden range are known for their above average styling or overall quality, so a major rebranding could actually work in their Favour.

Sadly the common loser (regardless of what they do) seems to be HSV. They are the Commodore Hot up shop, and once Commodore in RWD V8 form ceases to exist, I believe HSV will go the way of Blockbuster Video store.

[Goggles]

Mark Rouess or whatever his name is has already said that if the SS takes off in the States the next gen version will be American designed and made in order to appease the american public, if you have to give them something they are patriotic, so under this scenario we could see the next gen SS sedan sold here as well if it goes ahead.

and guess what, the American designed SS will be exported, or built in Australia as the next generation Commodore.

I don't understand where this rubbish coming from that the next generation large Holden will be FWD.

Holden/GM have never confirmed this, and until they confirm what the next generation Commodore is, I will take any ramblings in the daily newspapers with a grain of salt.

I also doubt that even if Holden ceases manufacturing in Australia, that the Holden name will die. IMO, there is still too much value in the name. changing a few badges here and there is probably irrelevant to GM.

[Goggles]

and what will become of the great race round Panorama??

nothing. there are RWD V8 Camrys and Fusions (Mondeos) running around Nascar tracks at the moment.

[offshore]

nothing. there are RWD V8 Camrys and Fusions (Mondeos) running around Nascar tracks at the moment.

Its bullshit mate Camrys are boring as no one cares if there is a V8 Camry at Bathurst its a boring motors sport.

[GR346]

Had our HSV Club end of year dinner Saturday night and the CEO of HSV was there and gave a great speech - he also responded to the news paper articles and stated that he wouldnt be to worried just yet...

So doesnt look as bad as first made out

[Marco]

Well yes, but what else would the CEO of HSV say? Yeah, it's all true and we're closing our doors/shifting to hotting up Malibus and Captivas from 2016?

Either way, HSV needs to seriously consider its business model in the next little while. They've had many good years selling V8s but if the door is about to close on that, then it's time to leap into new markets. HSV Cruze for starters.

[C4B]

Either way, HSV needs to seriously consider its business model in the next little while. They've had many good years selling V8s but if the door is about to close on that, then it's time to leap into new markets. HSV Cruze for starters.

I personally believe HSV are so strongly tied to V8 RWD Commodores that when Commodore ends they would be better off killing the HSV brand and starting afresh.

I wouldn't buy a 4 Cylinder HSV any more than I'd buy a Laptop made by Dewalt or a Watch made by Tampax...... We're not talking about a company like Yamaha which does a multitude of product lines, we're talking about a text book "one trick pony". They are brilliant at producing High Performance Commodores..... And that's all!

[Jag530G]

And in trying to do hotted up 4cyl HSV are going to be competing head on with $40K VW GTIs and Subaru WRXs. A whole different ball game compared with selling GTSs for $95K that have a massive price advantage against its competitors that sell for $150K-$250K. The $40K hot hatch market is highly contested.

I suspect HSV know full well that a HSV Cruze simply won't sell against a WRX or GTI and isn't worth the development money doing so. I don't think HSV sold many Astra VXRs and they were just a rebadge of the OPC Astra. Perhaps the next all new Cruze due in 2015/2016 will be a better base for an HSV version but HSV's brand image of hotted up V8s won't help.

Cheers, Matthew

[Aus8]

Do the right thing and kill HSV with dignity with the VF. Same with the Commodore dont tarnish its legacy. Ford did the righty killing the Falcon name plate hopefully the same thing happens with Commodore and HSV. New cars new names!!

[Marco]

I'd agree with that actually. A FWD Commodore is not a Commodore.

[VYBerlinaV8]

Its bullshit mate Camrys are boring as no one cares if there is a V8 Camry at Bathurst its a boring motors sport.

How would it be any different from any car in the field? The V8 supercars badged as Ford or Holden are really nothing of the sort.

[C4B]

Do the right thing and kill HSV with dignity with the VF. Same with the Commodore dont tarnish its legacy. Ford did the righty killing the Falcon name plate hopefully the same thing happens with Commodore and HSV. New cars new names!!

IMHO HSV should have created an offshoot for non-Commodore based variants a long time ago. That way they could have built up a brand image for that specific market. The problem is they would've needed to divert resources away from the profitable Commodore variants and that's a tough decision to make.

I know many in 4 Cylinder Turbo Brigade and I can tell you without hesitation they would not buy a HSV branded 4 Banger even if it had double the power and handling and was half the price. In their mind HSV is a company that builds Overpriced Commodores for Bogans with too much money.

If they think they're going to crack the Hot Hatch market using the HSV nameplate they're gonna have a steep hill to climb.

[Goggles]

IMHO HSV should have created an offshoot for non-Commodore based variants a long time ago.

which they first tried as far back as 1988 with the Astra.

I don't understand why they didn't persist. surely they could have absorbed a bit of a loss on the 4cyl variants with the profits made on the 8 cyl cars.

[Micks]

Read most posts above & agree, there's no stopping HSV importing a brand from the States etc. & enhancing it like usual.
I don't really want a Commodore & every V8 I have bought are not "Commodores" even though they maybe variant related!!

[calais190]

Read most posts above & agree, there's no stopping HSV importing a brand from the States etc. & enhancing it like usual.
I don't really want a Commodore & every V8 I have bought are not "Commodores" even though they maybe variant related!!

If ford are keen to bring the mustang, will the V8 exist through Camaros here? I can't see HSV removing themselves from the performance sector entirely. Plenty of good American muscle cars that can be sold here. The costs are in developing the RHD versions. Surely with all of the cash they spend on developing the commodore, they could use a portion of it to develop RHDs for at least one performance model for Import to AUS. If they brought camaros and mustangs here I honestly wouldn't mind sacrificing the commodore and the falcon. No one drives big cars anymore anyway....

[redvxr8clubby]

I can't see HSV doing much with a 4 cyl. They might have some scope with the demise of Opel in Aus, but really I think it would be much like the Astra VXR, not exactly a raging success. Perhaps there will be some V8 offering post 2016 and of course they won't be making much info public 3 years in advance. I can't see HSV putting up Cruze competing against Golf GTI or Renault Megane even ST Focus etc.

[seldo]

I can't see HSV doing much with a 4 cyl. They might have some scope with the demise of Opel in Aus, but really I think it would be much like the Astra VXR, not exactly a raging success. Perhaps there will be some V8 offering post 2016 and of course they won't be making much info public 3 years in advance. I can't see HSV putting up Cruze competing against Golf GTI or Renault Megane even ST Focus etc.
Problem with the HSV Astra thingy was price. HSV thought they could apply their normal profit margin to the Astras, but they forget that all these little 4cyl things are ultra price-conscious, which is why people buy them in the first place - it's not usually a size thing, it's because they are ultra conscious of the fuel cost of running them.
If you take an average guy that does say 20,000km/pa, in a V8 that averages say 14.5/100 of 98oct @ $1.75, and compare it against a little sub 2 litre car that averages say 8.5/100 of 91 @ $1.65, your annual fuel bill difference is $2,095, or $40.28/week.
Now, I doubt that many actually do the sums, but if they did, they may actually reconsider the cost/benefit equation and re-think the $40/wk vs the comfort, space, safety and enjoyment of a proper car....
Yes, I know there are other costs like insurance, tyres etc, but let's not get too technical...

[C4B]

If ford are keen to bring the mustang, will the V8 exist through Camaros here? I can't see HSV removing themselves from the performance sector entirely. Plenty of good American muscle cars that can be sold here. The costs are in developing the RHD versions. Surely with all of the cash they spend on developing the commodore, they could use a portion of it to develop RHDs for at least one performance model for Import to AUS. If they brought camaros and mustangs here I honestly wouldn't mind sacrificing the commodore and the falcon. No one drives big cars anymore anyway....

HSV are currently using donor vehicles worth $40,000. The business case for importing high performance US vehicles just doesn't stack up because of the cost to land them here. A quick look at new Camaro prices in Aus shows a base price of about $90,000. Now HSV could probably get them cheaper but lets be realistic here, even if they could land/compliance them for $70,000 per unit, they're not gonna sell them for a dime under $100,000.

The fact that in its 20+ year history HSV have never done a single limited run US sourced V8 such as a Corvette suggests it's just not a viable proposition.

[calais190]

HSV are currently using donor vehicles worth $40,000. The business case for importing high performance US vehicles just doesn't stack up because of the cost to land them here. A quick look at new Camaro prices in Aus shows a base price of about $90,000. Now HSV could probably get them cheaper but lets be realistic here, even if they could land/compliance them for $70,000 per unit, they're not gonna sell them for a dime under $100,000.

I see your point, but I think your missing a something here. The Camaro's running around Australia are purchased at full retal price in the United States, imported over and slapped with compliance, levies and various taxes. This drives the price up to $90k. HSV would not have to a) pay retail for the vehicle and b) pay all of the import duties and taxes that we would for compliance (they could bring them over in parts and assemble a few pieces here). I don't think the cost would be anywhere near as high as 70k per unit. Keep in mind, we're not even talking wholesale prices here, we're talking parent company inventory.


The fact that in its 20+ year history HSV have never done a single limited run US sourced V8 such as a Corvette suggests it's just not a viable proposition.

You're missing one vital point here. In the past 20years, the Commodore has always existed. In 2016, it will no longer exist. This creates resources to fund the importation of vehicles that Holden previously never had the opportunity, due to the obligation of spending its funds on development of the Commodore.

[blackvussii]

HSV are currently using donor vehicles worth $40,000. The business case for importing high performance US vehicles just doesn't stack up because of the cost to land them here. A quick look at new Camaro prices in Aus shows a base price of about $90,000. Now HSV could probably get them cheaper but lets be realistic here, even if they could land/compliance them for $70,000 per unit, they're not gonna sell them for a dime under $100,000.

The fact that in its 20+ year history HSV have never done a single limited run US sourced V8 such as a Corvette suggests it's just not a viable proposition.

The reason we are getting the mustang is due to ford going to a global platform and for them to make it work here they are reportedly going to be priced close to 50k. The last time they bought them over they were closer to 100k and flopped as a result. I dont think we would ever see a corvette but maybe the camaro especially if they continue to use the commodore platform. Ford obviously feel its worth it so I dont see why GM wouldnt.

[offshore]

If anything GM should just allow Holden to make HSV commodore V8s alone. Every thing else can be imported but we still make the worlds best large V8 4 door sedans and make that the unique Australian built car.

[ti0350]

Well yes, but what else would the CEO of HSV say? Yeah, it's all true and we're closing our doors/shifting to hotting up Malibus and Captivas from 2016?

Either way, HSV needs to seriously consider its business model in the next little while. They've had many good years selling V8s but if the door is about to close on that, then it's time to leap into new markets. HSV Cruze for starters.
From what i was told HSV wanted to do a Cruze but GM in detroit said no.

[Jag530G]

The only way we will ever get a Camaro from a Holden dealer is if GM build RHD versions from the factory in America (production of the next Alpha platform Camaro moves from Ottawa I believe). The idea that HSV is going to assemble LHD CKD kits and convert them to RHD is crazy. All that would do is add on Australian production costs onto the car. HSV doesn't even have the capacity to actually build a car. Moreimportantly, what volume would a Camaro sell in? Nowhere near enough to justify a CKD/RHD programme. The other thing is what will HSV actually add to the car? GM already do the SS With the LS3, Z28 with the LS7 and ZL1 with LSA, the new Camaro will get the LT1, so there is nothing for HSV to do apart from reinventing the wheel.

BTW, Ford have just announced no more GT from 2014. There will be a low boost XR8 and that's it.

Cheers, Matthew

[Goggles]

talk about stretching a long bow!!
http://www.news.com.au/business/companies/holdens-manufacturing-future-in-doubt-afer-gm-boss-snubs-workers/story-fnda1bsz-1226757600405

but it is the first articie in a couple of days on the demise of holden manufacturing. I was beginning to miss them....NOT

[Marco]

A journo wouldn't know this, but maybe a guy who is one of the top execs at GM is just a bit...busy?

[CLUBRED]

If anything GM should just allow Holden to make HSV commodore V8s alone. Every thing else can be imported but we still make the worlds best large V8 4 door sedans and make that the unique Australian built car.

HSV should move to the main manufacturing plant, and be put down the production line, surely having to ship, store and double handle each hulk is costing them.

[C4B]

HSV should move to the main manufacturing plant, and be put down the production line, surely having to ship, store and double handle each hulk is costing them.

That will NEVER happen....

[SCiFiRE]

The only way we will ever get a Camaro from a Holden dealer is if GM build RHD versions from the factory in America (production of the next Alpha platform Camaro moves from Ottawa I believe).

They currently do RHD Camaros for South Korea don't they?

[Marco]

I think South Korea is LHD.

[blackvussii]

Rhd production was approved by GM in 2010 for the UK and asian markets but then canned because of the GFC, could be wrong but i'm pretty sure none were ever made.

[SSer]

http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-reviews-search?authors=4294951352&orderBy=desc&sortBy=pRSS_DateWritten

He must be foaming at the mouth every time he gets an "exclusive", "rumour" or otherwise. Anyone have a spare 4L60e?