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LJC 57L
24-04-2014, 07:27 PM
I overheard a few people the other day saying that the Caltex servo at Kirrawee on the Princes Hwy Sydney in the Sutherland Shire area may have E85.I often pass the servo and was wondering if this is true.And if so can I use it in my cammed vx ss with any improvement

Toddler78
24-04-2014, 07:59 PM
To answer the first question. Pop in and see for yourself.

To answer your second question,. No the car needs to be tuned for it. Being a cammed VX you are going to need to upgrade the fuel pump and injecters at the least + tune. You will use more fuel with E85 so need to adjust to suit otherwise you are going to run lean and the engine will lunch itself

white lie
24-04-2014, 08:19 PM
IMO if the comp hasn't been raised, the cost will outweigh the gain.

macca_779
24-04-2014, 08:57 PM
IMO if the comp hasn't been raised, the cost will outweigh the gain.

Yep, been there done that. Even with 11:1 comp I saw no gain in power

Radikl
24-04-2014, 09:15 PM
Yep, been there done that. Even with 11:1 comp I saw no gain in power

Macca, out of curiosity, what comp would you be running to see gain?

macca_779
24-04-2014, 10:20 PM
Macca, out of curiosity, what comp would you be running to see gain?

12+ to justify it really in my opinion, but depends on cam too

swingtan
24-04-2014, 10:24 PM
You guys must be talking 5.7, because the 6.0 absolutely loves E85!

Cost averaged over about 12 months saw a break even on costs (c/KM) after a bit of work on the tune. Now I'm long term testing on E10 and while it's not as good (power wise) as E85, I'm not spending as much time in the servo....

Here's some data showing the differences between 98 at the start, then E85 and finally E10.

https://db.tt/ZNZGvP6L

macca_779
24-04-2014, 10:50 PM
E85 is just so forgiving Simon. I honestly believe if people are seeing big gains when switching to E85 on a basic combo, then the 98 tune must of been lacking in the first place. Can't speak for the difference in an L98 but I wouldn't imagine why it would be completely different to what I run which is more comp than an L98 anyway.

Testing on mine found bugger all power difference running 23º of timing all the way up to 29º for shits and giggles.. It just won't ping its that resilient.

Torque though did jump about 40nm in the guts when I fattened it right up, but power dropped off which I discovered at Temora when Luis got me to try leaning on it and pulling timing back down to 22.5º. I picked up 4km/h on that pass and the car felt significantly quicker in the top end. But it was weaker in the guts running leaner than what I was running (~.80).

I'm off the cane juice now, but for me running a near identical timing map (more tweaks in cruise than anywhere else with less timing there), but richer lambda in the guts and similar 98 lambda up top worked best overall for me.

Economy wise comparing E10 to 98. I've found I use around .5L/100km less on 98 minimum. And that covers the extra cost close enough and the car runs better on 98

swingtan
24-04-2014, 11:44 PM
Yeah, bang for buck, E10 is in the sweet spot, E85 is a lot of fun though.....

macca_779
25-04-2014, 12:55 AM
For my car 98 is slightly better $/km combined fuel average. Highway they're very close. Main reason I went away from it was i was getting audible pinging at part throttle moderate load conditions (hills 3rd gear 2000rpm kind of scenarios). Was a good experiment to test wot on e10 which was fine and if I had stock comp I'd may have continued to use it. But in the end. E10 costs roughly the same $/km, I get less km per tank and 98 makes more power. Easy decision really

swingtan
25-04-2014, 09:22 AM
I reckon the Europeans have the mix right. You can get E25 over there and I think this would be a good blend if the savings were passed on to consumers. Maybe I should do some testing mixing E85 with 98..... That could be interesting.

Radikl
25-04-2014, 09:28 AM
Ignorant question. Running E85 or any other variants of corn juice, how does lpg compare or is there no comparison?

Talking Vapour Injection.

swingtan
25-04-2014, 10:13 AM
LPG is about the same as E85, in theory. Similar octane rating and similar calorific values, IE. both can run with more spark advance and both need to run richer than ULP.


However, the general delivery of LPG is not as good as E85 (IMO). I've worked on a few different LPG cars and most have some minor issues that can detract from the overall setup. Apart form loosing boot space / spare wheel for the tank, outpour injected LPG suffers gas pressure lags due to the gas converter being some distance from the the injectors. This causes fueling drifts on transients and large throttle changes, in particular transitioning from deceleration ( DFCO ) to drive. Liquid injection shouldn't have this problem as you can't compress a liquid.

E85 probably gives more flexibility and a better feel than vapor LPG, but if you do enough driving then LPG is still a very good option.

macca_779
25-04-2014, 11:26 AM
Lpg has a stoich of 15.5:1. You should actually use less of it all else being equal

Modern lpg liquid injection is the way to go

brasher
25-04-2014, 11:58 AM
I overheard a few people the other day saying that the Caltex servo at Kirrawee on the Princes Hwy Sydney in the Sutherland Shire area may have E85.I often pass the servo and was wondering if this is true.And if so can I use it in my cammed vx ss with any improvement

yes, has Eflex.

You can fill up there, or north bound caltex at Heathcote.

Been told by the attendant the one at Kirrawee will not be for much longer though.

Woodchukka
25-04-2014, 12:52 PM
Isn't there a difference between E85 and Eflex. Being that E85 is 85% ethanol and Eflex varying between a range of ethanol percentages?

brasher
25-04-2014, 01:09 PM
Eflex usually around 70% eth year round now. Maybe goes up a tiny amount in summer.

TBH the difference between it and say United or drum E85 is negligible unless right on the ragged limit.

macca_779
25-04-2014, 01:41 PM
United e85 is 92. Eflex is 74 from all the testing I've done

ittwgn
25-04-2014, 01:46 PM
even tho mine is tuned with united e85 I can run around on eflex and can't feel the difference !!! I just make sure when I run at the drags and crank up the boost I have the united e85 in the tank !!! for similar turbo setups like mine it really is great stuff !!! 1200+ rwhp on pump fuel and that sweet smell oh yeh !! hahaha

brasher
25-04-2014, 01:52 PM
haha yeah I visited my mum the other day, first thing she said is something is wrong with your ute, it stinks!

perfect :)

OUTAtheBloo
10-07-2014, 03:32 PM
Hey Guys, I have a VZ L76 that im interested to switching over to E85.

Only bolt on's for the time being, i am looking at going diff gears stall and OTR around September. Cam/heads in another 12 months.

My questions

What do i need to convert the VZ over to E85, is it just a pump and injectors, if so, which ones.

The car isn't a daily, is there any negatives to e85 Fuel cars if not run for a while ?

Anyone know of a mph increase on e85 at the Drags ?

Cheers Dan

white lie
10-07-2014, 04:40 PM
If it's just a bolt on, I don't think it will be worth the gain.
You want high comp or boost to make it worthwhile, especially if the car isn't used for long periods. The ethanol will absorb moisture from the air.

Should be ethanol compatible pump, lines etc but plenty of people run it on the factory lines with no dramas.

Tre-Cool
10-07-2014, 06:08 PM
Hey Guys, I have a VZ L76 that im interested to switching over to E85.

Only bolt on's for the time being, i am looking at going diff gears stall and OTR around September. Cam/heads in another 12 months.

My questions

What do i need to convert the VZ over to E85, is it just a pump and injectors, if so, which ones.

The car isn't a daily, is there any negatives to e85 Fuel cars if not run for a while ?

Anyone know of a mph increase on e85 at the Drags ?

Cheers Dan

Being a VZ you should be able to install the sensor and wire it and have true flex fuel capability.

Justin @ Ultimate Conversion Wiring does a kit for. $250, once installed you will need to get the relevant tables/parameters turned on.

Micks
10-07-2014, 06:19 PM
Being a VZ you should be able to install the sensor and wire it and have true flex fuel capability.

Justin @ Ultimate Conversion Wiring does a kit for. $250, once installed you will need to get the relevant tables/parameters turned on.

Does the kit include the flex sensor?

OUTAtheBloo
10-07-2014, 06:29 PM
Being a VZ you should be able to install the sensor and wire it and have true flex fuel capability.

Justin @ Ultimate Conversion Wiring does a kit for. $250, once installed you will need to get the relevant tables/parameters turned on.

Gday Dave, stupid question for you, would this mean i could still run 98, or only a e85 tune is possible ?

white lie
10-07-2014, 07:06 PM
Flex sensor will allow you to chop and change as you please, with the sensor detecting the level (if any) of ethanol going in to the motor.

Micks
10-07-2014, 08:08 PM
Flex sensor will allow you to chop and change as you please, with the sensor detecting the level (if any) of ethanol going in to the motor.
That's correct with an E38 OS it will change the values on the fly depending on what the flex sensor measures!

abrowne70
10-07-2014, 08:58 PM
I am in the process of doing a flex fuel install on my LS1 with standard LS1 ECU, good things to come with the kits justin is doing

swingtan
10-07-2014, 08:58 PM
FWIW, I ran E85 for a long time with in my VZ L76 with a small cam, exhaust, etc (manual).

Basically, your cost per KM travelled is about on par with 98, but you get way more torque. I know others will say it's not worth it, but in my testing, it may be OK. I'm currently on E10 now and it's returning better economy (cents per km) than 98 with little difference in power delivery (on the street).

So I'd say if you want to try E85, give it a go. United E85 is very consistent in its blend, so if you just ran that, you can run an E85 specific tune and do nothing else. No need for a sensor or OS change. Just set the stoich point in the tune and adjust the spark and fueling as needed.

I've written about my testing in another thread, but let me know if you want any specifics.

Simon.

AFM pir4te
10-07-2014, 10:11 PM
I've run my L77 exclusive on e85 for the past three years, now at the pump you'll see little Toyota 86s and rotaries fuelling up on e85 too. Different reasons different engines, and SwingTan is correct re lowering rpm of maximum brake torque is the most impressive characteristic of ethanol. Next would have to be relative independence to IATs.
One point is without proper injectors or pump you are quite constrained in true evaluation of performance of e85 by current injector duty cycle.
The scope of required fuelling ranges from similar AFRs to 98 closed loop cruise to a fuel flow hosing of 145+ litres per hour WOT @ peak rpm. That's like tipping out a stubby of beer every 9.3 seconds.
So you can't really rev it out without pump and injectors but you will see a positive difference in the L76.

Woodchukka
10-07-2014, 10:14 PM
I am in the process of doing a flex fuel install on my LS1 with standard LS1 ECU, good things to come with the kits justin is doing
Interesting. However not E85 here so not convenient as yet. But would be interesting to have a go.

offshore
10-07-2014, 10:58 PM
My car is in the shop now getting a fuel system upgrade with boost upgrade and tune on E85 so will be interesting to see how it goes.

OUTAtheBloo
11-07-2014, 09:09 AM
Awesome replies guys, definitely want to give this stuff a crack

brasher
11-07-2014, 09:39 AM
now that it's the dead of winter, anyone else car having real issues starting on the first crank? Mine will stall on the first attempt, but fire right up on the second go.

No issues on Eflex, but running United in this tank and it's not having much fun on first start. Could play with the tune, but if it's no issue to the engine I'll deal with it.

duke5700
11-07-2014, 10:18 AM
6 Servos now in Canberra with E85? The 3 United and the 3 Caltex isn't it?


My car is in the shop now getting a fuel system upgrade with boost upgrade and tune on E85 so will be interesting to see how it goes.

swingtan
11-07-2014, 10:26 AM
now that it's the dead of winter, anyone else car having real issues starting on the first crank? Mine will stall on the first attempt, but fire right up on the second go.

No issues on Eflex, but running United in this tank and it's not having much fun on first start. Could play with the tune, but if it's no issue to the engine I'll deal with it.


As already mentioned, United runs a higher Ethanol content than Eflex, so it's probably a bit lean on initial crank. When I was running United E85 last year I had no cold start issues at all, but I did put a lot of work into the tune. You may need to get the tune looked at if it really bothers you.

Simon

brasher
11-07-2014, 10:34 AM
doesn't really bother me, it just sounds a bit F*((ked when it splutters and eventually stalls. I can put up with it once a week when I drive it :)

Gonna really love this fuel when it's blown.

65,000km's on nothing but E85/Eflex now, still running like a dream.

offshore
11-07-2014, 10:49 AM
6 Servos now in Canberra with E85? The 3 United and the 3 Caltex isn't it?

I was only aware of the United stations if there is more thats great. Im getting the squash performance twin in tank setup and KPM 1500cc injectors and changing the lower pulley on the LSA so its going to be 9.17 lower 2.55 top 38% over driven up from 25% so really no choice now but to run E85 to get the most out of it. It was 447rwkw on 98 and running out of injectors so im hoping over 500rwkw now.

Might get one of these drums to for Temora if I make it there.

http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/5570

duke5700
11-07-2014, 11:36 AM
Yeah Caltex at Kambah, the one on the highway heading to Yass on the right heading out of town and there is another.

It is a lower concentration generally than what United is, so make sure you get whoever is tuning it to either use the Flex Fuel setup, or leave something on the table so you can go between them.


I was only aware of the United stations if there is more thats great. Im getting the squash performance twin in tank setup and KPM 1500cc injectors and changing the lower pulley on the LSA so its going to be 9.17 lower 2.55 top 38% over driven up from 25% so really no choice now but to run E85 to get the most out of it. It was 447rwkw on 98 and running out of injectors so im hoping over 500rwkw now.

Might get one of these drums to for Temora if I make it there.

http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/5570

white lie
11-07-2014, 11:54 AM
Might get one of these drums to for Temora if I make it there.

http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/5570

Unless you were tuning for drum e85, would it not be more economical to source an empty 44 and fill it yourself with United's e85? 1.50odd per litre compared to 2.20odd
I think filling 44's at the servo is frowned upon these days though, so may need to do jerry can runs ;)

offshore
11-07-2014, 11:59 AM
Yeah Caltex at Kambah, the one on the highway heading to Yass on the right heading out of town and there is another.

It is a lower concentration generally than what United is, so make sure you get whoever is tuning it to either use the Flex Fuel setup, or leave something on the table so you can go between them.

Yea flex fuel would be safest to have the tune set on so I could use both but I could use united only easy enough as the car doesnt get driven heaps as im away a lot of the time. Its only going to be a hassle if drive it in the country. Im really going to be pushing the envelope with this motor and stock blower so better off probably just using united.

offshore
11-07-2014, 12:01 PM
Unless you were tuning for drum e85, would it not be more economical to source an empty 44 and fill it yourself with United's e85? 1.50odd per litre compared to 2.20odd
I think filling 44's at the servo is frowned upon these days though, so may need to do jerry can runs ;)


Yea I reckon buying the drum might be easier lol. Not like ill be buying them ever week I hope :driving:

Tre-Cool
11-07-2014, 01:28 PM
Unless you were tuning for drum e85, would it not be more economical to source an empty 44 and fill it yourself with United's e85? 1.50odd per litre compared to 2.20odd
I think filling 44's at the servo is frowned upon these days though, so may need to do jerry can runs ;)

I've done it at the Armadale shop (44 in the back of the ute). No complaints. haha

I've just put in the later 1mb ls1 ecu in my vy with the flex fuel sensor, mine should be running in a couple of weeks once I have some money to buy some fuel fittings.

feistl
11-07-2014, 01:34 PM
I've done it at the Armadale shop (44 in the back of the ute). No complaints. haha

I've just put in the later 1mb ls1 ecu in my vy with the flex fuel sensor, mine should be running in a couple of weeks once I have some money to buy some fuel fittings.

Does that mean you can run a mix of 98/E85 and the system will automatically adapt? If so thats very interesting, i thought you had to either soley run 98 or E85?? I didnt want to be trapped into using E85 due to availability, but if i could switch between fuel and have the computer auto tune id be very happy...

BLACKVE
11-07-2014, 04:46 PM
Yea flex fuel would be safest to have the tune set on so I could use both but I could use united only easy enough as the car doesnt get driven heaps as im away a lot of the time. Its only going to be a hassle if drive it in the country. Im really going to be pushing the envelope with this motor and stock blower so better off probably just using united.

Get the tune done on E85 from united and just run united in your combo.

Mine was tuned on untied but runs fine on eflex(better economy) but i'm on N/a. In a boosted car I would stay safe on true E85

VendeTTR
11-07-2014, 10:34 PM
Get the tune done on E85 from united and just run united in your combo.

Mine was tuned on untied but runs fine on eflex(better economy) but i'm on N/a. In a boosted car I would stay safe on true E85

As above :)
But rarely used eflex as caltex are rip offs with their pricing

offshore
11-07-2014, 11:28 PM
Does this stuff also act like methanol keeping the temperatures down heaps

dogsballs
12-07-2014, 12:19 AM
Does keep temps down, we always struggled with super cold starts (although no issue with my carb engine, go figure).

I originally used an aeromotive a340 but that died at 9mths then switched to a walbro 350, both cheap and good for n/a car. I got hold of a set of ls9 52lb injectors cheap from states. I ran 11.8:1 on baby ls2 cam in l76, with stall and diff gears hitting 11.3 at strip, not bad for budget l76 in heavy vz

offshore
12-07-2014, 01:12 AM
Yea should help me out with temps as im going to be outside the efficiency range of the 1900 blower im only doing it for a laugh really see how it goes. One of the keys to this power is getting the inlet temps down.

The pumps in my kit are the DW300 its the one being sold by vcm some variation on this anyway

http://www.vcmstore.com.au/index.php/holden-products/fuel-system/squash-vcm-performance-holden-commodore-ve-series-1-dual-fuel-system-the-complete-solution.html

BLACKVE
12-07-2014, 05:27 AM
Does keep temps down, we always struggled with super cold starts (although no issue with my carb engine, go figure).


Strange isn't it few mates have turbo cars on it and they are rough as guts when cold really need to warm up, My Ve with 239/247 starts first pop every time, must be the awesome tune.

offshore
12-07-2014, 05:37 AM
Maybe they need glow plugs :lmao:

AFM pir4te
12-07-2014, 05:47 AM
Yea should help me out with temps as im going to be outside the efficiency range of the 1900 blower im only doing it for a laugh really see how it goes. One of the keys to this power is getting the inlet temps down.

The pumps in my kit are the DW300 its the one being sold by vcm some variation on this anyway

http://www.vcmstore.com.au/index.php/holden-products/fuel-system/squash-vcm-performance-holden-commodore-ve-series-1-dual-fuel-system-the-complete-solution.html

Mate IATs are almost not important when using e85, no knock under 130°C and 28:1 dynamic compression. Combine that with better cooling effect than meth and its a no-brainer.

macca_779
12-07-2014, 09:39 AM
Mate IATs are almost not important when using e85, no knock under 130°C and 28:1 dynamic compression. Combine that with better cooling effect than meth and its a no-brainer.

28:1 DCR. Can you explain what your on about here

offshore
12-07-2014, 10:45 AM
I reckon the Greens had no idea that their so called environment friendly fuel ethanol would be so good for the evil performance car drivers

lmoengnr
12-07-2014, 12:40 PM
I reckon the Greens had no idea that their so called environment friendly fuel ethanol would be so good for the evil performance car drivers

Shhhh! Don't tell 'em that....

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 05:02 AM
28:1 DCR. Can you explain what your on about here

Being facetious, quoting diesahol (ethanol used as clean diesel replacement at 28:1) in Swedish buses to emphasize ethanol's tolerance for knock. Realistically the highest mechanical CR I've read about for e85 in spark ignition is 20:1.
I'm rebuilding my L77 13:1 static, 10.22 DCR.

macca_779
13-07-2014, 07:43 AM
Being facetious, quoting diesahol (ethanol used as clean diesel replacement at 28:1) in Swedish buses to emphasize ethanol's tolerance for knock. Realistically the highest mechanical CR I've read about for e85 in spark ignition is 20:1.
I'm rebuilding my L77 13:1 static, 10.22 DCR.

Wow that's still impressive

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 09:32 AM
Wow that's still impressive

Yeah spent many nights over the past three years holed up in a country hotel, researching the merits of alcohol, mods, and saving money. For more alcohol.
I've learned quite a bit and my wagon is going strong, now on the cusp of opening my wallet for some reconditioning after 160,000+km.
Bottom line is at 13:1, the IMEP difference between E85 and PULP is nearly 33%.
The fuel consumption penalty associated with E85 can be reduced by 30% by operating at a high mechanical CR, utilizing AFM, and controlling events better with an electronic cam phaser.

macca_779
13-07-2014, 10:06 AM
Yeah spent many nights over the past three years holed up in a country hotel, researching the merits of alcohol, mods, and saving money. For more alcohol.
I've learned quite a bit and my wagon is going strong, now on the cusp of opening my wallet for some reconditioning after 160,000+km.
Bottom line is at 13:1, the IMEP difference between E85 and PULP is nearly 33%.
The fuel consumption penalty associated with E85 can be reduced by 30% by operating at a high mechanical CR, utilizing AFM, and controlling events better with an electronic cam phaser.

I've considered going crazy on compression. The problem is availability of E85. I really can't be sure that I'll always have access to it. If that ever changes I'll be right on board. But alas with the 11:1 static comp I'm currently running, the torque gains are good ~30nm, but peak power gains are negligible. Plus the price/km doesn't add up compared to 98 in my current config. I've gone with blending while racing to 60% Ethanol with no drop on power too. Moving to QLD next year, so may revisit the idea by getting a set of 243 heads and taking .060" off them

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 10:23 AM
Ofc it depends on the relative price of e85, filled up past 24hrs along east coast starting at Speedway was $1.27 (have seen it less than $1 there) whereas Kempsey was $1.41, Coffs $1.32. Still at least 35¢ a litre cheaper than PULP.
With Abbott's excise increase it specifically doesn't affect e85, should realise saving of 50¢ and more shortly.
BTW if you are looking to ethanol for the knock resistance quality alone, e50 (60%) is the minimum according to SAE.
eFlex is fine for most people wanting to up the timing.
With Offshore's LSA for example he could simply dial in 10° and get 150hp from his local eFlex pump.

dgp
13-07-2014, 12:29 PM
I've considered going crazy on compression. The problem is availability of E85. I really can't be sure that I'll always have access to it. If that ever changes I'll be right on board. But alas with the 11:1 static comp I'm currently running, the torque gains are good ~30nm, but peak power gains are negligible. Plus the price/km doesn't add up compared to 98 in my current config. I've gone with blending while racing to 60% Ethanol with no drop on power too. Moving to QLD next year, so may revisit the idea by getting a set of 243 heads and taking .060" off them

Macca, my sound like a dumb question but why use 243 heads?

macca_779
13-07-2014, 12:33 PM
Macca, my sound like a dumb question but why use 243 heads?

11:1 is achieved off the standard size chamber and head height. Gives more scope for more comp without running into manifold alignment issues when milling the deck

XUV
13-07-2014, 01:13 PM
I've done it at the Armadale shop (44 in the back of the ute). No complaints. haha

I've just put in the later 1mb ls1 ecu in my vy with the flex fuel sensor, mine should be running in a couple of weeks once I have some money to buy some fuel fittings.


I am in the process of doing a flex fuel install on my LS1 with standard LS1 ECU, good things to come with the kits justin is doing

Good to see E85 stuff happening with the LS1.

How have you found E10 runs in your LS1?

We don't have either in this part of the world (great move N.S.W. Gov not making it the norm) but still interested.

macca_779
13-07-2014, 01:50 PM
I've done extended e10 testing. Does ok but isn't as knock resilient as 98 under load up hills or towing for example. $/km it's also almost on par but I've found it slightly worse off. Needless to say forget about it and run 98. That's for me with 11:1 comp. I know Simon has done his own testing and found it to be comparable.

adr8
13-07-2014, 02:21 PM
Yeah spent many nights over the past three years holed up in a country hotel, researching the merits of alcohol, mods, and saving money.

I'm guessing there aren't any good brothels in the country towns you visit? ;)

white lie
13-07-2014, 02:44 PM
I wouldn't use e10 but use P100 which is still 10% ethanol. Would have been fine switching between that and 98 but touched up the tune to suit anyway as it's pretty readily available over here.

A^K^T
13-07-2014, 03:11 PM
I've done it at the Armadale shop (44 in the back of the ute). No complaints. haha

I've just put in the later 1mb ls1 ecu in my vy with the flex fuel sensor, mine should be running in a couple of weeks once I have some money to buy some fuel fittings.

Is there much stuffing around involved with changing from the 512k to the 1mb pcm and using the flex fuel sensor ?

VendeTTR
13-07-2014, 04:33 PM
11:1 is achieved off the standard size chamber and head height. Gives more scope for more comp without running into manifold alignment issues when milling the deck

It's only that much compression with a ls2, I think it's around 10.4 on a 5.7.

VendeTTR
13-07-2014, 04:34 PM
My new engine has 12.7 scr and mid 9's for dynamic comp. purely for e85 now :)

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 05:04 PM
Good stuff. How did you achieve that?

VendeTTR
13-07-2014, 05:25 PM
Mast heads on an ls3 :)

brasher
13-07-2014, 05:40 PM
Did a bit of testing, when the eth content gets above 80% thats when the old girl has trouble starting, below that and it's all good. That 8/10ths of a tank with United must have been a potent mix.

It loves the united stuff though, but consumption increased greatly, no surprise. Cool weather + e85 = :)

For reference, Eflex has shown me 74% eth content for ages now. I don't think it's seasonal like they say.

macca_779
13-07-2014, 05:52 PM
It's only that much compression with a ls2, I think it's around 10.4 on a 5.7.

Thats why I mentioned I'll be going 243 heads

macca_779
13-07-2014, 05:54 PM
Did a bit of testing, when the eth content gets above 80% thats when the old girl has trouble starting, below that and it's all good. That 8/10ths of a tank with United must have been a potent mix.

It loves the united stuff though, but consumption increased greatly, no surprise. Cool weather + e85 = :)

For reference, Eflex has shown me 74% eth content for ages now. I don't think it's seasonal like they say.

United is ~92% mate. You can get cold starting perfect with a couple of tune tweaks. I worked at it for about 2 weeks a couple of years ago to nail it.

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 06:14 PM
Mast heads on an ls3 :)

Ok, I thought taking L92 chamber down to 64cc on LS3 would give you 11.9 with 0.40" mls and enough PTV to run 0.600" lift. I assume you are running stock pistons.
What cam and timing are you running optimised for ethanol yet maintains safe PTV with stock pistons?

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 06:21 PM
United is ~92% mate. You can get cold starting perfect with a couple of tune tweaks. I worked at it for about 2 weeks a couple of years ago to nail it.

Great. Is your solution specific to EFILive or can it be sorted by Holden using Tech2 or something? I have several people with this problem (2nd crank cold start).
Also I keep a log of SAE.ALC_PCT (%) and buy lots (30kL so far) around the country, never seen it past .85 using VE SII flex sensor.

macca_779
13-07-2014, 06:35 PM
Great. Is your solution specific to EFILive or can it be sorted by Holden using Tech2 or something? I have several people with this problem (2nd crank cold start).
Also I keep a log of SAE.ALC_PCT (%) and buy lots (30kL so far) around the country, never seen it past .85 using VE SII flex sensor.

Can't do anything with a Tech II. Any tuner using EFI or HPT should be able to do it. It's mainly just increasing initial fuel pulses during cranking

VendeTTR
13-07-2014, 06:44 PM
Ok, I thought taking L92 chamber down to 64cc on LS3 would give you 11.9 with 0.40" mls and enough PTV to run 0.600" lift. I assume you are running stock pistons.
What cam and timing are you running optimised for ethanol yet maintains safe PTV with stock pistons?

They aren't stock castings mate, plus they are a small bore version. These heads still have a greater than stock PTV clearance. It's not tuned yet.

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 06:45 PM
Ok so fix for L77 under wty is OS flash?
I did see one of your posts mentioned fix was pulses in commanded fuel when cranking table, thanks.
Thought all those poor bstrds who complain united is killing their L77 could get a fix without stuffing their wty.

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 06:56 PM
They aren't stock castings mate, plus they are a small bore version. These heads still have a greater than stock PTV clearance. It's not tuned yet.

Ok thanks. Just I'm in same boat as you, having looked into mast black label and chamber is 64cc to get 11.9 on LS3. I didn't realise that with 64cc or less chamber volume these heads have chamber and valve geometry allows for adequate PTV for lift, duration and advance required to capitalise on the ethanol.
I was about to pull the trigger on domed, forged, relieved pistons and a full rebuild.

jc_sv8
13-07-2014, 07:44 PM
E85 is $1.46L here today and there are only 5 United selling it in Perth. (from what I can see)
98 is $1.58L so nowhere near the 30c savings this side of the country.

BLACKVE
13-07-2014, 07:56 PM
Ok thanks. Just I'm in same boat as you, having looked into mast black label and chamber is 64cc to get 11.9 on LS3. I didn't realise that with 64cc or less chamber volume these heads have chamber and valve geometry allows for adequate PTV for lift, duration and advance required to capitalise on the ethanol.
I was about to pull the trigger on domed, forged, relieved pistons and a full rebuild.

You can fly cut

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/impluseve/ve/Flycut001.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/impluseve/ve/Flycut003.jpg[/

think my heads ended up 60cc(milled approx. 60thou standard gm head gasket and of course slight amount with flycut lost.

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 07:56 PM
E85 is $1.46L here today and there are only 5 United selling it in Perth. (from what I can see)
98 is $1.58L so nowhere near the 30c savings this side of the country.

Yeah well what can I say apart from its a pity you miss out on a fair bit over there. Come to QLD, much nicer.
Without going through comparisons in detail, 98 is $1.82 today in Redcliffe, e85 is $1.48 at Bald Hills.
Yesterday was 40¢ cheaper in Kempsey and Coffs.

AFM pir4te
13-07-2014, 08:11 PM
You can fly cut

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/impluseve/ve/Flycut001.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh170/impluseve/ve/Flycut003.jpg[/

think my heads ended up 60cc(milled approx. 60thou standard gm head gasket and of course slight amount with flycut lost.

Yeah mate I studied dogsballs (the user, not literally) and apart from PTV there is also quench and swirl, plus domed is needed to get 13:1 and high DCR.
11ish static is a fair way short of ethanol's efficiency window.
Wiseco forged can handle heat and stress of traditional knock prone lower octane petrol yet enough strength for high IMEP without hotspots.

brasher
13-07-2014, 09:23 PM
E85 is $1.46L here today and there are only 5 United selling it in Perth. (from what I can see)
98 is $1.58L so nowhere near the 30c savings this side of the country.

It's a load of S^&*(t isn't it!

When I first got my ute eflex was 98c/L!