Advice needed, not sure if dodgy dyno or my stupidity

[pwr346]

Hey guys,

Just got my car back from the shop after going a procharger and e85, And I'm not sure about the dyno figures that came out.
I'm yet to upload a shot of the readout, but basically it came to 501hp @ 5500rpm and 734 ft lb at roughly 3100rpm, and then the torque drops down to 680ft lb at 5500rpm.

I'm a bit concerned as I've been told that the reading is dodgy because it has no hp/torque cross over at 5252rpm, as it is on the same scale from what I can see on the print out. I've looked at some of his other read outs and they don't have the crossover either. It was done on a mainline dyno, if that helps any.

Before I call him up and question him or get a second opinion, am I missing something here?

[Jag530G]

I think if you are making 501hp at 5500rpm, torque will be 478lbft at 5500. And I couldn't imagine the 734lbft of torque being right either? Sure your Torque is in lbft and not Nm?

Cheers, Matthew

[pwr346]

Heres the sheet.

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag318/roweballs/photo1_zps21542b05.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/roweballs/media/photo1_zps21542b05.jpg.html)

[mechatron]

What does it feel like on the street?

[pwr346]

Feels alright, but then again, never been in a 500hp street car.

[Djbarnstar]

Looks fine to me.

It's just the torque curve plus the power curve on one sheet.

Go do some skids.

[pwr346]

a graph of Torque / HP on the same scale, the lines always cross exactly at 5252 RPM, because HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252.

[white lie]

I believe the torque graph will be affected by the gearing of the car. You could perhaps work out exactly by how much (diff gears and tyre size) and then divide the torque figure at 5252rpm by that ratio and see if it matches your power figure.

Any reason why it's limited to 5500? Surely it would keep making power to 6500 or so?

[ls2 cruiser]

If that AFR reading is accurate it is running lean as all hell. 12.5 : 1 is boom material. Should be between 11.7 and 12:1 shouldn't it? What is done to your engine and which engine ?

[ls2 cruiser]

They work well don't they. It is making 7 psi boost at 3200rpm. That is pretty dam good. Who did the tuning? Cant read it. The thing with dyno tunes as well is that back on the street they run leaner than on the dyno.

[pwr346]

Its on E85, 18 degrees of timing. Tim said it was pretty safe, with a bit more left in it. It went to 21 degrees no worries but didn't make anymore power.
He wasn't sure why it stopped making power. But I'm more than happy with 500rwhp. I did say to get the boost in there early. Its running the required ati balancer and a 3.7 blower pulley.
Another note all the rpms are off by 500. Correct gear ratio wasn't set in tune during this run.

2004 Ls1 - with valve springs and ported throttle body, lol.
Ceramic 1 3/4 headers, twin 3s
Built rollerised 4l60e with 5 gear planetary and converter shop 3000 stall
Walbro E85 intank /Surge tank /A1000 pump/ FAST Reg / Holley EFI Rails / id1000's / Much E85
3.7 gears.
Might have to grab those MT's on the forsale page and run it. The black top will tell.

[offshore]

Probably why the torque figure is incorrect if the wrong gear ratio was entered. Because 734 lb ft is bloody huge for that setup

[ls2 cruiser]

The afrs the sheet is showing is not correct for E85. stoich for E85 is 9.87: 1 which is at cruise. Under boost the ratio would be lower so about 9: 1 or something like that. I have seen a 383 ls1 with a procharger running 7 psi and it made 500hp rear. Not sure what fuel he was using. The tuner is probably tuning in Lambda anyhow and maybe the dyno just shows the afrs in gasoline figures.

[pwr346]

The tuner is probably tuning in Lambda anyhow and maybe the dyno just shows the afrs in gasoline figures.
That's what i was told cruiser.

[chargedvx6]

Not bad but I'd run a tad more fuel in it. You can see where torque dips as afr leans but E85 is pretty forgiving too so it's more relevant how much timing is in it through the middle rpm where cylinder efficiency isn't the best than the 18deg peak timing.

[white lie]

I have seen a 383 ls1 with a procharger running 7 psi and it made 500hp rear.

Have seen a cammed LS1 and cammed L76 both make 500rwhp. Haven't seen them pushed much more than this for some reason

[XSNRGY]

Have seen a cammed LS1 and cammed L76 both make 500rwhp. Haven't seen them pushed much more than this for some reason

Thats a good point.
Why is it that some engines make more N/A cammed than others blown?
My Maggie helps puts out 370Kw on the LS1 but a tuner over here is getting 422Kw NA cammed on the 6 litre in the VE SS.
You cant tell me that .3 of a litre, or 300ml, cammed is going to be the answer.

[white lie]

No, cammed and blown (procharger) made those numbers I posted.
A true 500+ rwhp on an NA "cam only" is not possible. 422rwhp is more like it.
Would need to have bulk cubes and be pretty angry to make a true 422rwkw....or the dyno figures are severely fudged.

Generally speaking, most 6+L variants have much better heads than LS1's as well.

[ls2 cruiser]

The dyno readings are bullshit

[jca]

Torque =hp at 5200rpm is not always the case on a chassis dyno because the vehicle has a gearbox and diff ratio which alters the torque multiplication

[stevieturbo]

Only 500hp and over 700lbft of torque at such low rpm....none of it makes any sense at all.

Are you sure it's a Procharger ? And 7psi at 3100rpm ?

Sure you dont have a valley mounted blower ? Seems a silly question, but the numbers look more like it.

And HP/TQ lines will only cross at 5252 if they are on the same numerical scale

And as has been said, if that AFR trace is correct, it is certainly on the lean side of what is generally considered safe.

[pwr346]

Well he told me the diff ratio wasn't set correctly, so the rpms are roughly off by 500rpm.

It indeed is a procharger, we have have it pulley up so it's making boost early. It's roughly 6psi at 3000rpm, I'm assuming would make 12 at 6000 if it was spun a little harder.

And they are both on the same scale.

It is goin back this Friday for a couple if things,, gonna get him to run it up again and see if there is much difference.

[Hazard88]

Run the dyno in derived torque, It will give you a more realistic torque figure.

[pwr346]

Alright the saga continues,
After picking up the car today for - tune adjustment, fuel system tidy up and dyno re-run, things have gotten worse.
First it started with a couple of cut outs pulling up. Then it started surging a bit, cruising at round 2k rpm. Pulled up at home and it died again, so i thought "nah im taking it back".
Got to the tuner, he started checking it over. At first the scantool would connect, no fault codes.
Then after some more tinkering, the scantool would no longer connect.
HpTuners was hooked up, again no fault codes. Everything looked good, bar the cylinder air volume calculation, when it would drop to zero is when it would kark it.
Its at the point where it wont idle any more

My tuner is assuming that the ecu is corrupt, he had problems with connecting when first starting the tune. Only after a good charge would it connect.
He's assuming the ecu is faulting the cylinder air volume calculation, causing it to pull fuel. He's happy with everything else he's seeing in the tune.
Battery volatage is 13.5v
Coolant Temp sensor is fine

So unfortunately im looking at another ECU, and the fees for the tune and 2bar to write into the new one, plus some labour.
Any thoughts, on my predicament

[mechatron]

So unfortunately im looking at another ECU, and the fees for the tune and 2bar to write into the new one, plus some labour.
Any thoughts, on my predicament

That's bullshit...you shouldn't need to pay for your tuner to put the tune in a new PCM. He will have a backup of the current tune and then simply load it into the new PCM.

Else, cut your losses and go see a reputable tuner...otherwise you'll be going around in circles...

The latter would be the path that I'd take...and I have many times before with tunes and car audio

[pwr346]

I asked why i had to pay again as he had the licenses, but the licenses are linked to the current pcm. New pcm, new licenses. Can anyone confirm this?

[white lie]

True story... Shouldn't charge you for a whole tune though, there's not a great deal of time involved in flashing it on there and checking it over.

[pwr346]

nah hes not charging for the whole tune, just the hptuner fees. He said 240 for the hp tuner credits.

Dunno this is doin my head in.

[white lie]

Ls1?
They're about US$50/credit (more you buy, cheaper it gets). LS1 requires 2, all others need 4 I believe...Plus markup I suppose.
Also believe you can get 'unlimited' for around 30 credits which I would assume most tuners have...But they're still going to charge you for it.

[pwr346]

yeah ls1, with 2bar tune

[white lie]

Yeah, it'll be 4 credits.

[pwr346]

that blows.

[bush_basha]

Sorry to hijack but have a question about the credits aswell, if I have a tune by a tuner which have obviously used there credits, I then fiddle with my Hp tuners, will it then cost me my credits and say I go back to original tuner for another touch up will it then cost them credits again?

[white lie]

You should only get charged once. So the tuner will pay, then if you want to modify it, you'd have to pay. But when it goes back to the tuner, he will still have a licence for that pcm.

[pwr346]

Im looking at pcm's, will any auto one do? Or does it need to be VY specific?

[white lie]

I thought any VT-VY would do, they're not auto/manual specific

[IJ.]

Bush: Just do a compare between the files then transfer the new Data into a copy of your own licenced file, really easy with HPT.

[pwr346]

Hey lads,
Well this procharger setup ive had since September last year is starting to do my head in. The car runs hot, has got to 3/4 mark on the temp gauge a few times, fans never cycle off, found hoses with no clamps, found a half kinked trans cooler line to my new $5000 tranny, fuel filter mounted wrong way and inaccessible( he did fix this), because procharger sent the wrong regulator, and he couldnt source a new one in time, he ended up getting a second hand fast regulator instead. I bit my tongue with most of this.

The latest thing i have found is the supplied radiator shroud is the wrong size leaving a 20mm gap along the bottom and the tabs to hold it in place actually hit the radiator stopping it from fully sealing. Now im pretty much lookin at getting a custom shroud.

I hadn't said anything to my mechanic about the hot issues thinking it was another issue at hand, but i did bring up the others and he did apolgise, stating he was a bit behind the 8 ball with my car.

Now i've sent my tuner/mechanic what i have found in pics. Still no response. I know warranty and responsibility have to stop somewhere. With all the problems i've had, would you just cut him and start fresh with another mechanic/tuner. My way of thinkin is, if thats his quality of his work, how good is his tune? Then on the other hand im up for another $1000 for a tune, which is gonna take some time to come across. Rock/ME/Hard place.

[whitels1ss]

Hey lads,
Well this procharger setup ive had since September last year is starting to do my head in. The car runs hot, has got to 3/4 mark on the temp gauge a few times, fans never cycle off, found hoses with no clamps, found a half kinked trans cooler line to my new $5000 tranny, fuel filter mounted wrong way and inaccessible( he did fix this), because procharger sent the wrong regulator, and he couldnt source a new one in time, he ended up getting a second hand fast regulator instead. I bit my tongue with most of this.

The latest thing i have found is the supplied radiator shroud is the wrong size leaving a 20mm gap along the bottom and the tabs to hold it in place actually hit the radiator stopping it from fully sealing. Now im pretty much lookin at getting a custom shroud.

I hadn't said anything to my mechanic about the hot issues thinking it was another issue at hand, but i did bring up the others and he did apolgise, stating he was a bit behind the 8 ball with my car.

Now i've sent my tuner/mechanic what i have found in pics. Still no response. I know warranty and responsibility have to stop somewhere. With all the problems i've had, would you just cut him and start fresh with another mechanic/tuner. My way of thinkin is, if thats his quality of his work, how good is his tune? Then on the other hand im up for another $1000 for a tune, which is gonna take some time to come across. Rock/ME/Hard place.

First of all stop starting new threads on the same thing!
I have just merged this into your other thread.
I have done it before with a few of your old/new threads on the same things.

People will ask heaps of questions about your entire setup & if it is just all left in one continued thread
it will be much easier for anyone to read back through to help you.
This is to help you & all the other members who might want to help you instead of wasting everyone's time. :cheers:

[pwr346]

sorry, keep forgetting to go back. pains me to read lol.

[whitels1ss]

Anyway, I think you should first of all cut your losses & find another tuner.
It is so obvious that you are not happy with & don't trust the place you have been using.
Do a search & you will find.
There are a few around your neck of the woods.
One more thing, don't worry if one charges a bit more than another, it is about the quality of their work, not the cheapest tuner.
There are plenty of tuners who I would not let near a car of mine even if they were giving their tunes away free.
There is even one big name tuner close to me who I would not let near my car if he was paying me to tune it.:hide:

[mechatron]

I'm with whitels1ss (and like I wrote before) cut your losses and move onto a better tuner. This is obviously more than your current tuner can handle. It's like he's using your car to practice on to learn. Tuners are like personal trainers....they're absolutely everywhere but there's only a small handful that actually know what they're doing

[pwr346]

Not his first procharger install, must just be a dodgy so and so.

Finding it hard trust any performance shop ATM. I've heard really good things about efi performance on the gc.
Friend of mine has a 700hp cammed stock bottom end 2j, Swares by them, but my apprentice went there for an e85 conversion and got stuffed around.
Is it luck of the draw on how they are that day?

[mechatron]

You need to chat to the guys at Power Torque

[feistl]

Hey,

I know this doesn't help but it might make you feel a little better, I used a "reputable" tuner here in Victoria and long story short, it took them 12 months to build, then rebuild (After they ****ed the first one up) and tune my LSX motor. It ended up costing me around $6000 in broken parts/labor and so much stress/waiting that i eventually cut my losses and went to APS instead. It did cost me another $1500* or so (From memory) for a proper tune but i went from having a undriveable car to the engine running nicely within 5 days with the new tuner/APS.

It might hurt now thinking about having to fork out that much money, but honestly cut your losses now as you'll never trust this guys work and it'll cause more pain/suffering in the long run.

*For the record, $1500 for a full tune is exceptional value considering it was a LSX with a 2300 which took ages on the dyno to get right. Ironically i did approach APS initially to do the build but after several weeks waiting for a quote (Which never arrived) i went with another workshop on a recommendation from a friend.

[pwr346]

I actually called pt for the install and tune, said he wouldn't install it, but could do me a top mount.

[dyno junkie]

a graph of Torque / HP on the same scale, the lines always cross exactly at 5252 RPM, because HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252.

They do on Dyno Jet which actually reads ftlb of torque, not tractive effort which is what most Australian dynos read.

[pwr346]

Well, sorted out things with the tuner, he's selling up, moving overseas. Good Riddance.
Got stuck in to the car on the weekend, adjusting the shroud to fit the radiator better, remounted all the tabs, fitted better rubber edging. Fits like a glove. And the fans actually cycle off now.
Bypassed radiator trans cooler, due to the bent fitting, tried searching for another but to no avail. But trans temps have dropped, so win/win.
Talked to Hi Torque about getting it the tune looked at, happy with the outcome, should be in with them within a month with the amount of OT i'm doing.
Happy days.

[mechatron]

Looks like things are looking up now. Good on you for persevering through all of this