Performance Increase Recommendation [Archive] - Australian LS1 and Holden Forums

CAPRICE005

25-01-2015, 10:00 PM

Hey Everyone,

New member here, I have used these forums for alot of research/information to help with my recent purchase of a 2011 Ruby Red Holden Caprice V Series 2 (V8 AFM, Auto) only has 60'024kms.
I have also had some basic modifications made to the caprice to help it breath a little bit better.

Mods:
2-1/2" Xforce Full Exhaust System Including Hi Flow Cats & Extractors
VCM OTR
Tune

The above has improved it from 200ish rwkw to 266rwkw and 520NM torque by Elite Automotive in Brisbane.

Now I know that being a AFM engine the cam in it more fuel efficiency rather then performance
And standard auto is slow getting all that weight moving from a stop start.
Diff - I have no idea of ratio's or how they work to improve acceleration? (All I know is mine is non-lsd)

My Question,

Can someone please give me some bits of advice on ways to improve the acceleration of this vehicle?
Once the car gets moving it really moves from 80kph onwards.... it pulls quite hard, but down low it really struggles. I have seen a few auto Ve SS that pull quite hard from a stop even struggling with traction from both wheels (Lsd) without being heavily modded (similar mods to myself)

I love the look of the caprice being the LWB and like the thought that people don't look twice at it when it's at lights until it gets moving when it really has a nice deep note.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I would like to try doing some of the work myself rather then booking into a shop (Take a bit of pride in my ride)

Cheers

Pete

Wonky

26-01-2015, 12:24 AM

Your diff will be a 2.92 ratio. Going numerically higher will give better acceleration. Most people with VE autos go for either 3.27 (HSV A6 ratio) or 3.45 (Holden VE M6 ratio). I put a 3.45 in my A6 ute and love it - pulls away from roundabouts etc much more readily. Someone on here tried their A6 at the drags with different ratios over time and found HSV seem to have got it right i.e. produced the best times. Not an apples for apples comparison but I had an SSV sedan with stock 2.92 diff and basic bolt ons it managed a best of 13.17 down the quarter. My slightly heavier SSV ute with very similar mods and virtually identical power did a best of 12.83 at the same track.

Some people with the A6 even go to 3.7 (HSV M6 ratio) but many people think that's gone too far the other way as it makes 1st too short. Obviously your cruising RPM will change. Mine went from about 1500rpm at 100kmh with 2.92 to a bit over 1800 with the 3.45. Minimal if any effect on consumption, even at highway speeds. You may even find a 3.27 or 3.45 improves consumption around town because the motor isn't having to work so hard to get the big heavy car moving.

Have they tuned your A6?

Micks

26-01-2015, 05:55 AM

Great advice Gaz, yes the 3.27 unit in an A6 is a good compromise. :goodjob:

CAPRICE005

26-01-2015, 09:51 AM

Hey Gaz, Thankyou for the in-depth explanation on the diff ratio's. It really helps explain which is the best ratio to aim for and start searching the net for a lsd diff.
I can pretty much guarantee that the auto wasn't touched with tunning as it's flaring a lot and really struggles to pick the best gears when accelerating from cruising speed, Seems to hesitate in dropping down a gear unless to get the speed just right. It's very much still setup to compliment the stock afm setup!

I wouldn't take the car back to the same guys again as they seemed to struggle with the basic tune, after 2 attempts they still couldn't fix the car struggling to turn over on cold start.
And I'm not sure what they did with the tune but at lights now, If I don't firmly push the brake pedal in the car wants to always lurch forward and is idling higher (fuel says 3l / 100kph)when idling???

But I would like to find someone in Brisbane who can tune the auto and possibly try and sort the fine tunning out.

I'm trying to chase up the following:

Basic Brake Upgrade (VE SSV Redline Brakes & Slotted Rotors?) Is this a good value upgrade?
Basic Suspension Upgrade (Bilsteins & King Springs? or other package to firm the ride up abit while not feeling like bumpstops only) plus gives it a nice look
Cam package to finally delete the AFM setup and put in a decent set of lifters (Mine make abit of noise)
I would love to turbo or supercharge but have been told to budget $15'000 so that's out for the moment (We are building a house at the moment so can't spend that type of money yet)

Is there anything through your experiences that would be good upgrades for the value???

Again thank you so much for the advice and guidance (This is my first V8 - I was a GTR owner and this is all new territory)

Cheers Pete

BigAnt

26-01-2015, 11:44 AM

G'day Pete, I have never personally used them, but Hi-Torque Performance have a great reputation on here and would be my first port of call.
Alot of people put the 4 pot brake calipers from the Cadillac CTS-V on their sedans, should fit the caprice but I'm not 100% on that. Wheel offset might be an issue?
http://www.empireperformance.com.au/92-brake-kits

Wonky

26-01-2015, 12:50 PM

A decent A6 tune is a must!

I put a set of new Brembo Redline brakes on the ute a few months ago and they really came to the fore yesterday in particular when a group of us from another forum had a cruise which involved mile after mile of winding and hilly road - they were awesome! Greatly improved my braking confidence. :goodjob:

BigAnt

26-01-2015, 02:12 PM

Did you have a larger oil pan in your auto too Wonky? Thought I remembered reading about it somewhere?

graphicgoose

26-01-2015, 03:12 PM

Wonky

26-01-2015, 03:46 PM

Did you have a larger oil pan in your auto too Wonky? Thought I remembered reading about it somewhere?
Yep, have a baffled Cadillac A6 pan BigAnt. Will be the first mod to go on if I end up with another A6.

BLACK 346

26-01-2015, 03:49 PM

Yep, have a baffled Cadillac A6 pan BigAnt. Will be the first mod to go on if I end up with another A6.

A little off topic, buy what sort of $ are we looking at for the bigger pan purchased and installed Wonky?

Wonky

26-01-2015, 04:04 PM

This thread is good timing. I've just got myself an auto VF SSV Redline and have considered changing my diff gears to 3.27 unit. How much does it cost to get changed out? And is it still ideal if bolting on a blower in the future?
Holmart.com.au have brand new shot peened 3.45 centres for around $1700. 3.27 centres are rarer and harder to come by. I was lucky enough when my ute was near new to pick up a very low km 3.45 complete for just over $500 delivered from Adelaide from someone on here who was changing it in his M6 for a 3.7. Then sold my very low km 2.92 centre for about half that to someone else on here who just wanted an LSD in his WM, so the changeover cost me SFA. :) That's the best way if you're lucky.

Changing gears is around $1200 typically.

Wonky

26-01-2015, 04:12 PM

A little off topic, buy what sort of $ are we looking at for the bigger pan purchased and installed Wonky?
In the Filling A6 thread started by Holdan there is a link to the wide mouth filter kit including deep pan and gasket on the lasr pag or two. I'll get mine from Pace Performance if I need one as have dealt with them before and they were great. Probably around just over $A200 delivered at current exchange rates. Labour I'm not really sure of but not that long and about 10 litres of Dexron 6.

BigAnt

26-01-2015, 04:46 PM

graphicgoose, if you are definitely getting a blower, I would see how that goes first. Might be enough torque to not worry about diff gears.

CAPRICE005

26-01-2015, 06:59 PM

Hey Guys,

Wonky thanks for the info again..... I'm definitely looking at the brake upgrade as a must "was told most ve brake kits should fit the wm as it's basically a ve stretched and they used a lot of ve v8 items on the wm (wheels I have at the moment are stock but will be either fitting a set of 19" vf Calais /Caprice wheels or some 20" Gmax wheels http://www.clusebrostyrepower.com.au/img/tmp/gallery/1389654600_1389654600_thumb_600_600.jpg
I'm trying to keep a subtle look while making all the hidden work like a track car.
I'll have to start sniffing around for someone who can tune the a6 and then get stuck into the diff at the same time, as I definitely want the lsd aswell.
Also the pan upgrade and extra items for the auto is great as it can only help with keeping the auto running at it's best.

Also any recommendations on what to do next after the diff and auto upgrade/tune?
From what I 've read it seems to be roughly cam or cam & heads or forced induction but I'm unsure of cost for heads and whether it's worth it for my basic end goal of 400kw at the wheels on 98 pump gas.

I'm at 266rwkw, figure cam would push to 290-310rwkw for a cam and dod afm delete kit them to hit high 300's would need to push some boost through as I would like to keep some drivability (I don't mind having to deal with a decent size cam but deffinately not looking for a high 3000+ rpm stall if you get what I mean. It's a family car after all :D

Would my numbers be roughly correct? any suggestions on pushing those numbers any further with other good value for money upgrades?

I've been told expect the $ figures below

Auto Tune $500 - $1000
Diff $895 - $1400 (depends on condition & whether install myself or by shop)
ASE Turbo 1000 Kit or Magnusson Heartbeat Supercharger Kit - $10'000
Redline SSV Brakes Kits - $800/$1200 for fronts and $600/800 for rears
Bilstein Suspension Kit - $1400 or Formula/Monroe Gt & King Spring Kit - $800

Again all the numbers above depend on availability and whether I do the work myself or a shop does it...

Bling Bling

26-01-2015, 07:06 PM

OMG those wheels but each to there own..

CAPRICE005

26-01-2015, 08:52 PM

I have to agree they aren't the nicest wheels but it's hard to find a set of wheels in 20" that don't scream track master or hoon.....
I'm very open to suggestions if anyone finds a set of wheels that looks elegant and has some dish???.
I'm not under any disillusion that my wm caprice will be anything but a quick land barge, you cannot hide it's size.
There was a black wm caprice that had a nice set of wheels on it with abit of dish that looked nice but I couldn't find the image of it anywhere so I never knew what wheels they were.

Plenty

26-01-2015, 09:21 PM

Try something like these http://www.wheelking.com.au/content/images/thumbs/0005171_hsv-vf-senator.jpeg
from this!
http://www.hsv.com.au/Gen-F/images/home/HSV-Gen-F-Senator-Signature-lg.jpg

CAPRICE005

26-01-2015, 09:33 PM

Wow, now that's a nice wheel, performance yet not screaming hoon either.....That's a very similar design to the vf Calais / Caprice wheels I have seen.
And the fact there in a 20"aswell is great.... Thanks for the heads up I never would of known!

Wonky

26-01-2015, 10:16 PM

Yep, basically any VE brakes should fit the WM but bear in mind that any big brakes will severely limit your rim choice. I went Brembos on the front as much for looks as anything else because my disabilities mean I don't push hard, but certainly was thankful for them on the cruise yesterday trying not to hold people up. My rear rims have huge dish (which I :love:) but prevent me from putting any bigger brakes on the rear. Even had to change front rims to the latest version of the ones I had to clear the Brembos - different offset.

The most I have seen from a head/cam (big cam) VE on a non Disneyland dyno was around 350rwkw and that was a manual. Autos are typically 10 - 20 down on that so on a decent dyno I think the only way you'll make 400 or even close is FI.

Most of your prices are in the ballpark but I don't think an A6 tune is that expensive????

For suspension have you considered coilovers? I have height adjustable H&R coilovers which I love!! (Bilstein inserts) Decent big springs, unlike most coilovers.

CAPRICE005

26-01-2015, 10:42 PM

RED R8

26-01-2015, 11:20 PM

I like these as well classy, well made and quite affordable.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Dazvyss/Mobile%20Uploads/image-15.jpg

Wonky

27-01-2015, 09:08 AM

Hey Wonky,

I always considered coil overs but always used to generalise them with the ridiculously stiff setup I used to have on the GTR (It would get stuck in a servo driveway as 1 to 2 wheels would lift off the ground making me stuck. I never realised H & R did coil overs to suit Holden's???
You don't have any idea of where to look as I do like the idea of adjustable ride height to really find that perfect level!.
I'll hopefully have the new brake kits by the end of the week and trial fit on the weekend to see what clearances I have or need.
I have a VF Caprice rim to try and see if it will clear but being only 19" rim I'm unsure especially as I don't know the offset I need to make everything look right and work.

Will keep everyone updated

I got mine from Quadrant Suspensions down here who actually did all the development work to create the VE/WM H&R coilovers. See http://www.quadrantsuspensions.com.au/ (they're also H&R Australia - http://www.h-r.com.au/). I think due to the big springs nobody who's ever been in mine (including people who know coilovers) has picked that it's running coilovers as the ride is very compliant. There are links to places all around Australia to get the H&Rs from both sites. :)

graphicgoose

27-01-2015, 02:40 PM

graphicgoose, if you are definitely getting a blower, I would see how that goes first. Might be enough torque to not worry about diff gears.

Yeah, that's another thing I was considering. If I do get a blower it won't be for a year maybe, so we'll see. Wouldn't mind a zorst, OTR and tune in the meanwhile though.

Sorry OP, not meaning to highjack your thread. I agree with the Gen-F Senator wheels posted above, they look awesome! Subtle, yet mean and classy without screaming bogan/hoon.

Wonky

27-01-2015, 03:21 PM

I like these as well classy, well made and quite affordable.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Dazvyss/Mobile%20Uploads/image-15.jpg

With that amount of dish I doubt they'll clear any big brakes though........ :(

I like them too - what are they?

Plenty

27-01-2015, 07:46 PM

Hey Wonky,

I have a VF Caprice rim to try and see if it will clear but being only 19" rim I'm unsure especially as I don't know the offset I need to make everything look right and work.

Sorry mate but they won't clear the Brembo brakes, you'll need the Redline or HSV wheels to clear them or shims which you don't want to go down that path.

team illucid

27-01-2015, 08:01 PM

I have to agree they aren't the nicest wheels but it's hard to find a set of wheels in 20" that don't scream track master or hoon...

They are only 20"?.. Gee they look like 22" .... None of my 20" wheels look that big on my cars.

Wonky

27-01-2015, 09:48 PM

They are only 20"?.. Gee they look like 22" .... None of my 20" wheels look that big on my cars.

Exactly my thoughts Kurt!!

http://www.clusebrostyrepower.com.au/img/tmp/gallery/1389654600_1389654600_thumb_600_600.jpg

CAPRICE005

27-01-2015, 11:13 PM

Hey Guys,

In the photo I believe they are actually 22" but I don't want to go that big, want to try and keep it as legal as possible in the wheel department and with a decent ride aswell.
I actually saw the Gmax rims today on a ve Calais and have decided they aren't my cup of tea.... seeing them in person made a big difference they look weird tucked under a guard as they curve slightly outwards made it look too auto salon for my liking.
Just trying to see if I can find someone who can do better pricing then $4500 for a set of rims as that's a lot of coin just for wheels!

Plenty - I had a friend pop over with his VF Calais today and your dead right there isn't a lot of room behind those rims and I definitely do not want spacers so they are off the list aswell.

Wonky - your brake upgrade are they 4pots up front or the 6pot caliper?
I noticed there are 2 types of redline upgrade kits going around, either way for me any of them will be a upgrade?
I have to admit I can't wait to sort the suspension out as geez there is a lot of weight transfer when you pull the wm up from speed let alone go around corners with abit of weight transfer (Think waterbed)

I'm thinking I will just wait for the brakes to turn up and then get some measurements on what I need to clear the brakes with a rim....

Does anyone have a opinion on a cam for the auto caprice? I know I have to budget a extra $1300 for the afm dod delete kit aswell but I have no idea about what cam to look at as there is so many choices of brands and then spec's. Mainly looking for good low - midrange punch as I rarely get bothered into traffic light grand prix's and possibly something that could suit forced induction later on down the track. I think that choice will be tough (Turbo kit or Supercharger kit as they both have pro's and con's) I Imagine when the time comes it will mainly come down to budget rather then HP Goal as I'm not chasing huge numbers.

Cheeers Pete

P.s - Happy Australia Day to everyone yesterday

Micks

28-01-2015, 05:30 AM

Does anyone have a opinion on a cam for the auto caprice?
Have a look around the forum for upgrades in L76/L77 using LS2 or better still LS3 stock cams. I picked up 60rwkw on 70K, L76 engine with the LS3 cam, with great manners.

Micks

28-01-2015, 06:12 AM

You picked up 60rwkw out of just fitting that cam with no other modifications?

Is that a typo Mick or have I missed something mate? :confused:
No Ed just DOD del. kit PAC springs & Sonny tune. Stock was 219 following work 278. A 59rwkw increase! Che has similar great results with LS2 cams

whitels1ss

28-01-2015, 06:21 AM

No Ed just DOD del. kit PAC springs & Sonny tune. Stock was 219 following work 278. A 59rwkw increase! Che has similar great results with LS2
cams

Not tuned before obviously with only 219rwkw?

I am also guessing you changed exhaust & cats at the same time, not just a change of cam on an already tuned car?

Micks

28-01-2015, 06:34 AM

whitels1ss

28-01-2015, 06:41 AM

When I bought it had some form of "mail order tune" & shit catback, but no still running cast manifolds, stock cats & a 2.5"/60mm staino xforce catback.
Stock L76-L77 on avg put out 200-215 @ the wheels.

Must have been a really shit mail order tune buddy.
Even still, that's not a 60rwkw gain from just the cam,
Sonny's tune, the dod delete, the valve springs etc must have also played some part of it.:lol:

Micks

28-01-2015, 06:50 AM

Yep the last owner was a fuel miser :doh:
Reckon the PAC springs & those L92 heads + a Gr8 tune bring it together! :yup:

BLACK 346

28-01-2015, 07:25 AM

Hey Guys,

Just trying to see if I can find someone who can do better pricing then $4500 for a set of rims as that's a lot of coin just for wheels!

If you are going to spend big dollars on wheels and tyres have you taken into account getting staggered rims? (ie wider rears). This will enable you to get as much tyre as possible under the rear. With the mods you are planning you will need it.

CAPRICE005

28-01-2015, 09:04 AM

Hey black i'd rather not spend that much on wheels at the moment as i could use that extra money more wisely.... i was thinking $2500 at the most for decent tyres and rims? But staggered rims is interesting i wonder how much can be stuffed under the wm rear?
i have bought a set of brakes last night and some new slotted rotors so i will have to see what sort of clearance i need for the rims hopefully this weekend if they arrive in time.
Cheers
Pete

team illucid

28-01-2015, 09:22 AM

On the tourer I have 20x10" rims with 275 and have had zero issues - had 295 but they rubbed a bit - on the senator I stick with 275 on the standard HSV 9.5" rim with zero issues.

If you stick to genuine HSV rims you should have no problems with 255 up front and 275/285 down back.

Wonky

28-01-2015, 12:30 PM

Wonky - your brake upgrade are they 4pots up front or the 6pot caliper?
I noticed there are 2 types of redline upgrade kits going around, either way for me any of them will be a upgrade?

Must admit I thought the Redline Brembos only came in 4 pot at the front. I bought mine from my local dealer and just noticed they had them on eBay - great people to deal with! I got mine just before a price rise plus. :)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-VE-Redline-Clubsport-GXP-Brembo-Front-Brake-Kit-/251687355204

BLACK 346

28-01-2015, 12:35 PM

Must admit I thought the Redline Brembos only came in 4 pot at the front. I bought mine from my local dealer and just noticed they had them on eBay - great people to deal with! I got mine just before a price rise plus. :)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-VE-Redline-Clubsport-GXP-Brembo-Front-Brake-Kit-/251687355204

Are these the same?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VE-VF-HSV-GXP-REDLINE-FRONT-AND-REAR-BREMBO-BRAKE-UPGRADE-/181622089904?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a498528b0

Wonky

28-01-2015, 02:33 PM

Not sure but if they are that's a bloody amazing price! :shock:

BLACK 346

28-01-2015, 02:35 PM

Not sure but if they are that's a bloody amazing price! :shock:

Yeah, I have been scouring the net trying to work out why some have Brembo on the Caliper (like the ones you posted) and some have that V insignia (like the ones I posted).
Can't seem to find out why.

Wonky

28-01-2015, 03:24 PM

I have a feeling they've been imported from (probably) the US as I think that insignia is used on US GM cars

IJ.

28-01-2015, 04:31 PM

I have a feeling they've been imported from (probably) the US as I think that insignia is used on US GM cars

Cadillac CTS-V ;)

Micks

28-01-2015, 04:49 PM

Does that evilbay package include braided brake lines too or are the original oem ones just reused with this package?

BLACK 346

28-01-2015, 05:07 PM

Does that evilbay package include braided brake lines too or are the original oem ones just reused with this package?

No braided lines that I can see.

BLACK 346

28-01-2015, 05:09 PM

Cadillac CTS-V ;)

So if they bolt up without modification and are exactly the same except for caliper markings, would seem like a damn good deal. Especially if you have a Holden SS or Calais V.

Wonky

28-01-2015, 07:15 PM

Mine just included normal brake lines because the fittings on the Brembo end are different to stock brakes. I then turned around and bought braided lines to suit the Brembos and only of course used the fronts as I'd put new braided lines on for Temora less than a year earlier. Now have a full set of braided lines to suit factory brakes left over. 2 unused rears and 2 fronts which were only on 15k max.

Plenty

28-01-2015, 07:44 PM

i was thinking $2500 at the most for decent tyres and rims?

The stock Potenza RE050a 20" VE tyre goes for somewhere around the $500 mark give or take depending on where you get them, i would consider them a decent tyre. 20" is not going to be cheap for a "decent" tyre!

Plenty

28-01-2015, 07:53 PM

Are these the same?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VE-VF-HSV-GXP-REDLINE-FRONT-AND-REAR-BREMBO-BRAKE-UPGRADE-/181622089904?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a498528b0

VERY Cheap!

mechatron

28-01-2015, 08:04 PM

VERY Cheap!

Great price but I don't think you get the rotors. They're pictured but the rotors aren't in the description

Wonky

28-01-2015, 08:39 PM

Great price but I don't think you get the rotors. They're pictured but the rotors aren't in the description
You're right. Bloody misleading advertising! :mad:

mechatron

28-01-2015, 08:42 PM

You're right. Bloody misleading advertising! :mad:

Yeah...you have to be bloody careful on eBay these days

CAPRICE005

28-01-2015, 08:57 PM

Hey guys.... i have learned the 6 pot are hsv stock brakes, 4 pot are the holden redline versions... they come in either brembo signage or v insignia they are exactly the same.
I have ordered the 4 pot ones without rotors as I'm after slotted ones anyway so why pay extra for stock rotors.
Tyre wise for 20" they seem cheaper then what my stock 18 ones cost. I had falken tyres that were 295 each...

Plenty

28-01-2015, 09:16 PM