Camshaft and valve timing on Holden Rodeo 2.2 Petrol Engine C22ne help please.

[PeterA]

Camshaft and valve timing on Holden Rodeo 2.2 Petrol Engine C22ne help please.

Does anyone know or can they find for me the correct information on how to set the camshaft belt onto the camshaft gear.

The only service manual that I have is one that I found on the internet. It shows to set the valve timing by aligning the toothed belt pulley on the crankshaft with the indentation on the sump cover. So turn the engine over untill the notch in the gear lines up with the notch on the sump/block. Yes I did that.

Then for the camshaft ( single overhead cam) you do the same with it. There is a notch on the plastic timing cover shroud and one on the actual timing belt pulley.

But when I do that, the engine does not run, nothing. Just a few odd backfires etc.

If I leave adjust it back to where it was, when I first pulled it apart it has the camshaft pulley two teeth the the right(clockwise) from the notch in the plastic timing cover. When it is like this the engine runs.


I have included photos to show what I mean.
Bottom line is that the notches are not correct. The service manual clearly shows to line them up, but as I found out this does not work. Maybe there is an updated page on this particular part in the manual?

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa431/Peter_Apalais/2%20teeth%20to%20right.jpg

[LS1 Tonner]

Something weird happening here. You say it was two teeth out of alignment before ripping it apart?
Were the timing marks on the crank and cam gears in the correct position before you removed the old belt? EG: Lining up properly with corresponding position/mark
You didn't move the crank or cam when the belt was off by any chance did you?

Before going any further I would check the alignment marks again, make sure 100% that the crank gear is spot on in position, then check where the cam alignment marks are at.
Let us know what you find

[Bling Bling]

What is the other notch for (where it says GM)??? Check for TDC.

[PeterA]

Hi LS1 Tonner,

Okay here is the long winded explanation.

1. A couple years ago the engine was playing up. Rough idle, no power. Took it to an authorized Holden dealer and they had no idea of what it was in the end, and ultimately told me the engine was just about dead and to go buy a new one.
Went and got a second opinion from another mechanic, and that guy came up with the same answer. Only when we actually went to pick the car up and I was talking to him, he said "hey it might be the timing". So we went away for a few hours and then came back, and yes he said the timing belt had jumped two teeth. Car stayed there and he ordered in a new timing belt. This was at 100K, he put a sticker on the car which says to do it again at 200K. Car is at about 160K now.

2. In the last few weeks the car has been using/loosing water.
The exhaust is backfiring when coasting down hills. Come down the range in 3rd, no throttle, holding at about 60kmh, then if you lightly touch the accelerator pedal the car backfires and farts. I understand that this could be from leaky exhaust fittings etc. I have replaced all exhaust flanges with new gaskets and some high temp silicone. The only area that has had not been check for a leaky exhaust was the manifold flange that bolts to the cylinder head.
So after driving with the car like this for two weeks, the small water usage eventually got worse and worse and I could no longer hold off on getting a new head gasket.

3. Saturday just gone, I picked up a new head gasket. I was 99% sure that it had failed as the engine was using water, water droplets on the dip stick, exhaust and fuel smell inside the radiator overflow tank and a few bubbles in radiator.
So in the process of pulling the engine apart to get to the head gasket, you have to take off the timing belt. When I first saw the timing belt I checked the alignment between the crank and the camshaft. Making sure that the crank pulley was aligned with the notch on the engine block. Then looking up at the cam pulley it was to the right of center by two teeth.

The last person to touch this was the mechanic guy who replaced the timing belt at 100K. I have seen that and said, "Oh, well look at that. The belt must have jumped two teeth again like it did last time". I continued on put the head gasket on and put it all back together. In the process I put the cam pulley back onto the "0" or center position. Like how it says to in the manual.

4. Start it up and nothing, turning, turning, turning, bang, fart grumble bang the air box popped open. Bang, a massive blast out of the exhaust (10pm Sunday night, wife comes running LOL). Call it a night and come back in the morning.
Found out that the camshaft pulley has two notches on it. I had lined up the wrong one, whoops. No harm done. Flipped up back around 180deg. put it all back together.

5. Turn the key, turning , turning, turning, bang, fart, grumble, fart, and it kicks over a little bit. That was about it.

6. I was like, far out. Now thinking that I have not installed the head gasket properly.

7. Did a compression test. No.1 dry about 90psi, wet with a few squirts of oil 110psi. No.2 was about 85psi dry.

8. Hmm, okay. Then I moved the cam pulley back to where it was when I first opened it up, which was the +2 teeth to the right.

9. Compression test in No.1 160psi, ahhh.....

10. Put the key in, turn it and it fired up.

11. Put it all back together, changed oil added water and went for a test drive.


After using it today to go to work and back.
*Water level in radiator exactly the same as when I filled it up. So I think it is safe to say that the head gasket was leaking.

*It still has a rough idle, which is now amplified because the new head gasket is sealing better.

*To me if feels like the timing is retarded, like it was before, but now it is way more noticeable, again because of the new head gasket and internal pressures etc.

*The car still backfires coming down the range, but now it it way more louder and noticeable=head gasket again.

*Also when accelerating, as you come off the pedal it feels like it actually accelerates as you lift your foot up. It did this before, but again this is amplified now.

*And what is really noticeable is how boggy it is when in a higher gear and you floor it.


All those symptoms listed above in my limited experience point to retarded timing. The old school cars, if the ignition timing was retarded it would have that same feeling of accelerating as you backed off the accelerator pedal. So this is why I am calling it and saying something is retarded.


This still does not answer the question of why are there physical marks on the engine for the valve timing and when set to that the engine does not run.
I asked a guy who works at a Holden dealer if he could check his service manual about the timing marks. Hoping that maybe there was some kind of update. But his information was the same as what I have anyway.

So, what to do now.
I have a degree wheel and a dial indicator. This would be the ultimate way to check things out.

I do not understand at what point to take the valve open or closed reading at.
This is what the camshaft information states:

Intake Valves
Open at BTDC 29deg.
Close at ABDC 65deg.
Exhaust Valves
Open at BBDC 66deg.
Close at ATDC 29deg.


So like, find TDC on piston 1, the zero degree wheel. Then rotate engine, and watch for dial indicator to move. But at what point do I take the reading at? Is the 29deg. when the valve just starts to crack open? is it when the valve is already opening and at the point of where it will no longer open. or what etc



On a side note. When I took the head off, no.4 piston was clean compared to the rest. I think that the water was getting it there. Also no.4 spark plug has had its ceramic blown off. The cylinder walls looked pretty good I thought, could still see the cross hatch pattern from machining.

Bling Bling, that other notch on the cam wheel near the GM is to tell you that if you use this one it will be 180 deg out and you use the other one. LOL. :) Just trying to be funny. I have no idea what that is for.


I have added more photos.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa431/Peter_Apalais/crankshaft%20pulley%20and%20notch%20on%20engine%20 sump%20block.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Peter_Apalais/media/crankshaft%20pulley%20and%20notch%20on%20engine%20 sump%20block.jpg.html)


http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa431/Peter_Apalais/top%20view%20of%20block%20cleaned.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Peter_Apalais/media/top%20view%20of%20block%20cleaned.jpg.html)


http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa431/Peter_Apalais/spark%20plug%20missing%20ceramic.jpg (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/Peter_Apalais/media/spark%20plug%20missing%20ceramic.jpg.html)

[PeterA]

And I think engine compression by the book is 235Psi.

[VTClubSprtR8]

New plugs are in it yeah?

[LS1 Tonner]

Hi PeterA,
Well that certainly was a thorough explanation, but all jokes aside. The fact that it won't run unless it is timed 2 teeth out is strange and indicates to me there is some other issue.
But at this time of night I am kinda stumped trying to think what it may be.
What I am 100% certain of is that after changing probably 100 timing belts on mainly Toyota Landcruisers and Hiluxes but also other assorted vehicles, is that I have never ever replaced a timing belt out of synch with the manufacturers timing marks. There is no logical reason that a manufacturer would do this. And it is also hard to help diagnose an issue whist sitting at a laptop and not being there in person. Not trying to put a dampener on you but, it may be time to seek some professional help. Or if possible could you contact the mechanic who originally fitted the timing belt.
I have even googled your problem, looked for timing issues etc and found absolutely bugger all that was helpful.
Then I found this on a fixya website:
Belt covers need to be on. Timing mark on crankshaft (while on compression stroke) should line up with TDC mark on cover. then Camshaft mark, needs to line up by looking through access hole of cover, and align mark on cam sprocket with pointer on inside of belt cover.
Wish I could have been more help and I hope you get it sorted

[VTClubSprtR8]

Found out that the camshaft pulley has two notches on it. I had lined up the wrong one, whoops. No harm done. Flipped up back around 180deg. put it all back together.

This bit makes me a bit concerned. Could you have kissed some valves with the pistons maybe?

[LS1 Tonner]

This bit makes me a bit concerned. Could you have kissed some valves with the pistons maybe?

Just reread your reply PeterA... I interpreted the above quote as you refitted the cam pulley upside down (arrows pointing down not up as in picture)
If you fitted the cam 180 degrees out and cranked her over you may have smashed some valves into the pistons as VTClubsportR8 has suggested.

[Bling Bling]

First check TDC See if your harmonic lines up they can slip, turn cam sprocket round, check for bent valves,ignition timing, BURN.

[PeterA]

New plugs are in it yeah?

Yes I put a new set in.

[PeterA]

Hi PeterA,
Well that certainly was a thorough explanation, but all jokes aside. The fact that it won't run unless it is timed 2 teeth out is strange and indicates to me there is some other issue.
But at this time of night I am kinda stumped trying to think what it may be.
What I am 100% certain of is that after changing probably 100 timing belts on mainly Toyota Landcruisers and Hiluxes but also other assorted vehicles, is that I have never ever replaced a timing belt out of synch with the manufacturers timing marks. There is no logical reason that a manufacturer would do this. And it is also hard to help diagnose an issue whist sitting at a laptop and not being there in person. Not trying to put a dampener on you but, it may be time to seek some professional help. Or if possible could you contact the mechanic who originally fitted the timing belt.
I have even googled your problem, looked for timing issues etc and found absolutely bugger all that was helpful.
Then I found this on a fixya website:
Belt covers need to be on. Timing mark on crankshaft (while on compression stroke) should line up with TDC mark on cover. then Camshaft mark, needs to line up by looking through access hole of cover, and align mark on cam sprocket with pointer on inside of belt cover.
Wish I could have been more help and I hope you get it sorted

I went round to the previous mechanic yesterday but did not make it in time because they were shut. Will try again later on in the week.

Belt covers need to be on. Timing mark on crankshaft (while on compression stroke) should line up with TDC mark on cover. then Camshaft mark, needs to line up by looking through access hole of cover, and align mark on cam sprocket with pointer on inside of belt cover. i will look at this soon.

[PeterA]

This bit makes me a bit concerned. Could you have kissed some valves with the pistons maybe?

I do believe that it is a non interference engine.

[PeterA]

First check TDC See if your harmonic lines up they can slip, turn cam sprocket round, check for bent valves,ignition timing, BURN.

Okay will do. Will see what the last mechanic said first if he remembers.

[PeterA]

Spoke with the mechanic. He said that the manual is wrong. There are different builds of this engine. Also he said the same with the 2.6 motor, it has different engine builds.

So yes the timing is incorrect. I need to find TDC on piston No.1., making sure that the intake is rocking, and no.4 will be closed. I think he then said that the camshaft marks should be correct.

This is what Bling Bling had also said.

I will pull it down again this weekend.

[LS1 Tonner]

He obviously has enough experience with these engines to know their differences.
Well that's good advice from the mechanic that fixed her up before and it looks like your on your way to getting it sorted.
I reckon that free advice from your mechanic might be worth a carton or a bottle :cheers: