Vehicle Economics

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

Hi Guys,

Been thinking (as dangerous as it sounds) about doing some mild modifications to the family hauler, WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Pricing it all up I would probably be looking at around $7500 for a lift, rock rails, under body protection and all terrain tires once all is said and done. Almost ready to pull the trigger until I spoke to a friend, who tends to buy cheap beaters, who is looking around for a 4x4. Getting on carsales there are a few cars already fitted out with the gear I want and more for around the same price point as modifying my Jeep.

Now I'm think, am I better off buying the second car just for the offroad/camping duties? I haven't really found the limits of the Jeep yet in its stock form as is and it has handled all the trips to the beach, kroombit tops and other tracks/firetrails without getting stuck once. Being the family car (predominantly wife drives it hauling the kids around) I have been a little hesitant to lift and put AT's on it because it does a lot of highway hauling.

What's peoples thoughts? The only thing I'm stuck on is probably the additional cost of rego and additional insurance (would only do 3rd party, fire and theft anyway). Vehicle would probably only be used once a month as well.

[whitels1ss]

I would buy the second vehicle.

You will never get back what you spend on the mods on your good car,
you would also limit the sales market for it when you want to get out of it
& it won't be as nice to drive when it's done.

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

And thats the thing, I would be able to sell the second car on if I decide to get rid of it for not much more than I bought it for. At that price point I would suspect I would have hit the bottom of their depreciation.

[whitels1ss]

And thats the thing,
I would be able to sell the second car on if I decide to get rid of it for not much more than I bought it for.
At that price point I would suspect I would have hit the bottom of their depreciation.

Exactly!

And your missus won't get upset with you for making "her" car drive like something out of a rodeo or off a farm! :lol:



EDIT: ...... Also it would not matter so much if you damaged it off road bush bashing. :idea:

[Micks]

Bear in mind 4wd are higher maintenance vehicles more K's bigger repair/maintenance bills too.

[black_friday]

Could you get the second car on club rego? That would save a bit of coin

[feistl]

Hey mate,

Not sure what its like in Brisbane, but down here in Melbourne its pretty cheap to put a car on club plates. For me personally, i have a FJ40 landcruiser (soon to be) on club plates. It costs $60/year membership for the club, $145 for 90 days use and insurance is actually free (I get a 10% discount via shannons for a second vehicle, and the 10% saving is less than the premium for the FJ40). So essentially it'll cost ~$200-250 to have a second vehicle and 90 days of use (which is pretty much every single saturday/sunday of the year).

Just one thing to note... State club registration is usually not recognized in other states. So you wont be able to do interstate trips

To be honest any sort of 4WDing tends to break things, and if its your daily driver it can leave you stranded without a car.

Couple of options (imo) depending on budget...

80 series landcruiser. They are coil sprung, solid axles and proper chassis. Great to take the family away, drives reasonable well on road. Should be able to find one with decent modifications for not that much.

40 series landcruiser. Very old school, but convertible and short wheel base. Can fix pretty much any problem with a hammer. They seem to be increasing in value. Depending its intended purpose can either be a 2 seater or ad a bench seat in the back for the kids. Again for around $8k you should be able to find something pretty decent... Also great to work on and parts are incredibly cheap.

Patrol (GQ/TD etc). Dont know too much about these, but pretty serious off road and reasonable priced.

If your more interested in camping (rather than hardcore 4wding) then a troopy is a good choice.
Something like this...

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/redland-bay/cars-vans-utes/toyota-landcruiser-troopcarrier-troopy-/1112386240

You can kit out the rear and sleep in it, it'll be slow (0-100 times are measured in minutes) but they'll go pretty much anywhere. And worse case if you roll it you wont be out of pocket too much (you can probably scrap the parts for $3-5k).

Cheers

[Smitty]

Could you get the second car on club rego? That would save a bit of coin

well.. firstly you need to join a Vicroads licenced car club
and spend time supporting the clubs activities
and then you are restricted as to when you can drive it...

Personally I would pay the extra couple of hundred bucks for fuill rego

[feistl]

Depending which club you join, the activities can be limited.

there are no restrictions other than 90 days and the car can't be used for business purposes.

Consisering rego in vic is $790, paying $145 plus $60 club feed is a pretty substantial difference. Plus insurance is considerably cheaper for club reg cars.

[jc_sv8]

Exactly!

And your missus won't get upset with you for making "her" car drive like something out of a rodeo or off a farm! :lol:



This is the thing that will kill you. The missus will hate the fact that her softroader now drives like a tractor...
All of a sudden you're in the market for two cars

[tascalais]

1.How much off-roading are you wanting to do in the future?
2. What kind of off-roading would you end up doing more of? stay with camping etc or Dirty hardcore mud roosting fun? Remote long distance touring? As you no doubt know 4wding is very addictive and one thing leads to another real quick! And a Jeep won't last long in the hard stuff without big money.
3. How much lift are you thinking of putting in the Jeep? A small legal lift (2" or so) done professionally won't change the ride quality a whole lot.
4. How long will you own/how many kms do you think you'll want to put on a 4wd if you buy one?
5. How willing or able are you to do your own maintenance?
6. What's your style? Rough, rugged, basic and tough or more smooth comfort, aircon, electric windows?
If you buy a second 4wd you can push it more without worry. You can damage it without getting killed and the Jeep can still be used for everything you do now.
You can get a decent GQ patrol or 80 series cruiser for 7500. I'm personally a Patrol man because they are stronger and more capable off-road (flame suit on!)
Rego would be extra but hitting something big off-road is priceless!

>>>tappin from tassie

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

Thanks for the loads of info guys.
Club rego is out unfortunately. Tough rules in qld where the vehicle has to be at least 30 years old and you have to be a member of a club. Car can only travel to and from mechanics and club events I'm pretty sure too.
The Jeep is currently stock standard and I have done some rocky steep stuff in it, nothing extreme. I want to start doing some more challenging stuff though and mudding. Not interested in rock crawling but wouldn't mind doing the sort of regular tracks at say Land Cruiser Park for example. The idea behind the Jeep upgrade was a bit more grip and a mild lift of 2.5 inches with a bit of underbody protection. My mind started thinking well what about a winch? What about a decent rack to carry things, UHF radio and then the costs started adding up that a second vehicle with the gear already on it was going to be more economical.
I do want comfort. So cruise and aircon is a must. Fuel economy would be good so gas is probably the best I could find. Diesels scare me from the reading I've been doing. Lots of cracked heads and blocks etc. Leather would be a bonus as well as working elec Windows. But cruise and air con I won't negotiate on.
My dream is a first gen Range Rover on gas with all working options. Hard to find but.
The price range I'm looking at has a lot of ks on all makes, with the exception of some Jeeps, which is a worry but I guess a good mechanical check will alert me to anything. I can check for basic leaks but anything else from that I'd be guessing.

[amckiwi]

Club reg in Vic vehicle has to be 25 years or older.
You have to belong to a club that supports your vehicle and just recently it needs a roadworthy to move to a cub plate as well
90 days a year is the standard reg but you can get 45

[whitels1ss]

My dream is a first gen Range Rover on gas with all working options. Hard to find but.


That "dream" would very fast become a nightmare with breakdowns & maintenance.

If you are after something for a beer budget, stick with something basic.

Those things cost a fortune to repair compared with Toyota & Nissan, I have seen grown mechanics run away & hide from them. :lol:

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

That "dream" would very fast become a nightmare with breakdowns & maintenance.

If you are after something for a beer budget, stick with something basic.

Those things cost a fortune to repair compared with Toyota & Nissan, I have seen grown mechanics run away & hide from them. :lol:

Oh I'm aware. Still nice to dream. Realistically I would probably go a sahara of Ti if I could find one for the right cash.

[tascalais]

Yep you're better off staying with a Patrol or a cruiser. Im not sure where you've been reading bad things about diesel engines though as generally they are the toughest. Also when it comes to the larger 4wds anything that is petrol is thirsty. A 6 cylinder petrol patrol or cruiser will return a fuel consumption of anywhere from 20lt /100km to 30lt /100km and a fully loaded one that's being driven hard can easily go above that. But depending on distance travelled and how often it gets taken out, it might only end up being a couple of hundred bucks a year extra in reality.
For longevity and strength you can't go past a Patrol. For your budget you could get a GQ with the 4.2lt petrol (TB42) or diesel (TD42). The diesel will be a bit harder to find in that price range but they're about. While the diesel is no race car it will return better fuel economy and last for a long long time. You would feel confident buying one with over 300,000kms. Its a very common practice to throw a turbo on them and people are getting big numbers out of the engine easily, but that's another story. The 4.2 petrol comes in carby(TB42s)or efi (TB42e). The efi obviously returns better fuel economy. They are also strong engines and with general maintenance will see very high kms. I have a 4.2 carby model with 435,000kms on it and the engine still goes well. Its a Ti model which means it has electric windows and mirrors, aircon, velour interior (wow!) and a sway bar release. On a side note; the car has high kilometres and I thrash it in the mud and all the windows and mirrors still work fine. I have had two calais and an executive that didnt stray off the bitumen and damn me if they all didn't have window/mirror breakdowns at some point. Nissan patrols are built strong.
Auto or manual? The auto patrols will generally be cheaper than the manual. The majority of people use Street car logic to determine that manual is better. I think they're wrong. In hilly, rocky and tricky terrain the auto is beautiful as it lets you keep constant power to the wheels. Downside is that there is a lot less engine braking for descents and they are more expensive to fix if they die.
A GQ Patrol with around a 2" lift, bullbar, roof racks, UHF and 33" tyres will be a common thing to find on the second market and is a great entry 4wd that will get you way further for cheaper, for longer than a Jeep, pajero, disco.
Rock sliders can be had for about $500 a pair but I'd wait till you drive a lifted 4wd before committing to needing them. The gq patrol has the strongest diffs on the market (apart from their younger brother the GU patrol), the best lsd, they are balanced just right for off road and they are tough.
I didn't buy mine and then become bias, I became bias from research so then I bought one lol.
As you've found, the 4wd bug is addictive. If you start with the right platform (cough cough did someone say patrol?) you can feel confident in modifying as the parts are cheaper, more available and tried and true.
Good luck!



>>>tappin from tassie

[tascalais]

Also, I'd stay away from gas. Mine was running dual fuel and I ripped the gas out. Basically it's near impossible to have the best of both worlds and you end up running neither fuel at its peak performance. No doubt gas is cheaper up there but here it is around $1 per litre and unless it's a very precisely expert tuned system you use more to get less power so the economy wasn't there for me. Once the gas was gone i tuned mine up for petrol only and got better power and economy. And if you're thinking of mud, you'll be wanting power.

>>>tappin from tassie

[whitels1ss]

Also, I'd stay away from gas. Mine was running dual fuel and I ripped the gas out. Basically it's near impossible to have the best of both worlds and you end up running neither fuel at its peak performance. No doubt gas is cheaper up there but here it is around $1 per litre and unless it's a very precisely expert tuned system you use more to get less power so the economy wasn't there for me. Once the gas was gone i tuned mine up for petrol only and got better power and economy. And if you're thinking of mud, you'll be wanting power.

>>>tappin from tassie



No buddy, gas is fantastic for a daily car when it is sorted,
I have had many cars on dual fuel & even had a few with dedicated lpg over the years.
I currently have one with aftermarket injected (dual fuel) gas & I recently did 1600kms in 2 days towing a
2300kg trailer load & at the moment gas costs around 59c per litre.:goodjob:

[tascalais]

Its a little different if we're talking about early to mid 90's larger engines and heavy 4wds. The majority of patrols or cruisers that have had gas fitted are more than likely carby models and there are also better and worse gas set ups. Mine had the older style gas ring which is less economical and in the bush I need (like!) to put the boot down to get power so I would chew through gas quickly. Also as I said, the gas price does come into it a lot. At 59c you're dollars per kilometre is nearly 50% less than what mine was which makes yours a lot more economical.
One very common issue with the gq and cruisers on gas is that the heads are prone to crack.
Dedicated gas especially on a later model vehicle is another thing altogether and yep can definitely be great.
If it's only coming down to saving money on fuel consumption I'd ask the op to roughly guess how many kilometres his likely to do in a year and balance petrol figures vs diesel vs LPG and, depending on the kilometres driven, the extra dollars per year spent on a less economic vehicle might not actually add up to much.


>>>tappin from tassie

[whitels1ss]

Its a little different if we're talking about early to mid 90's larger engines and heavy 4wds. The majority of patrols or cruisers that have had gas fitted are more than likely carby models and there are also better and worse gas set ups. Mine had the older style gas ring which is less economical and in the bush I need (like!) to put the boot down to get power so I would chew through gas quickly. Also as I said, the gas price does come into it a lot. At 59c you're dollars per kilometre is nearly 50% less than what mine was which makes yours a lot more economical.
One very common issue with the gq and cruisers on gas is that the heads are prone to crack.
Dedicated gas especially on a later model vehicle is another thing altogether and yep can definitely be great.
If it's only coming down to saving money on fuel consumption I'd ask the op to roughly guess how many kilometres his likely to do in a year and balance petrol figures vs diesel vs LPG and, depending on the kilometres driven, the extra dollars per year spent on a less economic vehicle might not actually add up to much.


>>>tappin from tassie

Sorry buddy I don't agree & will never agree with you on that.
after being in the trade for well over 30 years I have seen & owned plenty of decent systems in my time.

Anyway, let's not ruin the OP's thread with an argument over this, he was asking for people's opinions. :cheers:

[tascalais]

I'm actually agreeing with you mostly :-) but I'm not a mechanic so my opinion is only coming from my personal experience and also by listening to the experiences of people from a 4wd forum of which I've been a member of for about 6 years. But yeah you're right let's leave the gas question for now.
Patrol for the win though! Haga
Id suggest maybe the op could have a read through a couple of 4wd forums to help find some pros and cons for different models.

>>>tappin from tassie

[jayc]

Well, tascalais fantasy seeing you here.

Just to add on the gas. Mine is an injected system and I also have a long range petrol tank. When we were down your way a couple of years back I drove mostly on petrol. Engine braking in my auto has been fixed with reduction gears, not cheap, but well worth it. Yeah, my duel fuel has over 400,000ks and still going strong.

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