Ecotec lifter rattle

[nasa]

Ok Guys I have just finished building an ecotec 3.8 V6 for a VY commy. Trouble is I used lifters from another engine I just dismantled them and cleaned them good.
Maybe too good. Now I believe I have a lifter rattle. The engine is also missing at idle and the miss is continual. What I am not sure about is if the rattle is indeed lifter problem
would it cause the engine to miss like it is. I have uploaded a short movie so you can hear the miss at idle and the rattle when I put on a little revs.
I would just like to know if it is indeed lifter problem and if a lifter problem like this would indeed cause the engine to miss like it.
I am reasonable sure I will have to replace the lifters but would feel better thinking that this will solve the miss at idle as well.
What do you think guys.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlS9leymYco

[whitels1ss]

That sounds to me like the rattle is not coming from lifters
it sounds way too deep
but I can't tell from the video where it is coming from.


I would start by removing the rocker covers for a look at the valve gear
but I expect there is going to be some serious damage inside the engine to cause that sort of a noise & miss.

I certainly would not be running it like that as it sounds like it would be doing more damage by the second.

[Smashfist]

That doesn't sound like a top end noise. Valvetrain noises are normally fairly tinny. Hard to tell with an online video but it sounds more like a knock to me.

[Devil CV8]

Im glad theres been a couple of other answers suggesting its deeper. That knocking is similar to what happened to my wife's VT wagon a few years back. plucked the engineand threw another one in

[Micks]

You would be brave to reco one of those as you can pick up good running engines very cheap for VS-VT's these days.

[chargedvx6]

That's either big end, balancer or flex plate. Verify oil pressure before running any longer too.

I'm guessing you didn't linish the crank? Must do it when ever bearings are changed.

Can I ask why the engine was "built" in the first place?

[nasa]

Thanks for the response guys. Sounds like bad news for me. I had just ordered a new set of lifters for this engine and will be installing them as soon as they arrive.
As for why.. Well when I got the vehicle it had scoured pistons and hole in top of piston no 4. I bought this engine from a wrecker here in Cairns for $660 and when I looked deeper into it I had never seen an engine with so much muck and tar inside. I cleaned it up and used the block crank cons and pistons with same cam balance shaft and timing gear all intact. I just cleaned out the timing cover and replaced sump gasket rear plate front and back seals,
Really I just used the short motor and put my own heads and valley cover ect on with all new gaskets. They say you can pick these up cheap and I can see that if I was down in Victoria. But you try and get a cheap one in Cairns. No wan that was a cheap one up here they want $800 / over 200 thou and $1300 / under 200 thou. and the cost to have an engine shipped up from down south gets in the way of buying down there. What can I do I can only get the new lifters install them and if it still dosent fix it I will just look to hitting the wrecker up for the warranty on this engine. This is my second attempt at fixing this car I have put another engine in before that didn't work out. If I have to change engine again that will be the third time. So to say I will be pissed off would be an understatement.

[chargedvx6]

Check oil pressure before wasting another minute on it I say.

The black gunk of death usually means intake or head gaskets have been failing for some time and oil quality degrades

[feistl]

I feel for ya mate... Those prices are pretty horrible.

For next time, get a quote through E-go for shipping... For a 1 cubic meter pallet from Vic to Cairns is $400... Last time i bought an ecotec outright it was $400 with 130,000km and all accessories. For a short block i would have expected less...

Maybe talk to the wrecker (show him that video), see if he'll give you some/all your money back as thats obviously stuffed.

Only problem with installing lifters is if something internally has failed (and it sounds like it) you run the risk of getting metal through the motor and damaging those new parts.

If he does give you your money back for $800 you should be able to get a full motor shipped up from Melbourne...

Alternatively, what spec model is the VY? V6 commodores (VY/VZ) vintage are pretty damn cheap these days... might be easier to just buy something newer.

Good luck

[Blown 454 AWD]

When the video started I thought, sorry mate that ain't no lifter! then you bought the revs up and I thought NNoooooo

See if you can short it out by pulling plug leads, if it's part of the power system then you should be able to short it out
(reminds me of the old days with all the old shitters about, was a common problem back then)

Could be a piston or big end, mains rumble.

Quick story Back in the 1990 I bought a new VN SS and fitted it with the whole box of dice of Group A, bought 2 x complete kits
(Group A Rocker covers, Sump, Cam, Lifters Double throttle bodies and all the induction, the lot for Group A in the engine for
$600 each from a dude at a car show out west that was commissioned by GM to dumb all (before the cars ran out to, good on them)

Went for a drive to Perth (as you do) whan I cruised in Perth pulled up at the first garage to fill up and far me she'd done a big end

knock a Knock a knock a knock wow was echoing off the shops WTF a near new car????????????????

It was a cracked flexi plate on the crank wow fooled about 10 different mechanics including me.

Sounded worse than yours however, the moral is could be fukin anything!!!!!

Start diagnosing and don't pull it down until you find it, I'd like a $ for every engine that knocked and

was pulled only to put it back together to find the noise as it didn't show when down.

Good luck

Steve
Advanced Trade Automotive Engineer

[nasa]

Ok Guys I appreciate the comments. However unpleasant it might be to hear not one agreement that it may have been a lifter problem. So now it has come down to why I thought it was.
I lifted the valve covers I cut an old cover in half so I could run without so much mess. ( I have plenty ).lol.
I noticed at idle all push rods were squirting oil except number 1 exhaust. I then turned the motor over until each valve was at full bottom open, I then backed off the rockers one at a time and re tightened until they just touched the valve stems. Then I counted the turns until they bottomed out again. Every valve was 9 half turns from touch to bottom. Except N0 1 exhaust, it was only six. Thinking that’s it. I then took that lifter out and put another spare in, it measured the same 6 half turns to bottom. Confusingly I took it out and put another spare in and it measured the 9 half turns to bottom. Thinking this was the answer I then put the compression tester on that cylinder and found no compression whatsoever. I am now thinking stuck valve or weak spring or something So I cranked over engine and loosened of that lifter just half a turn and compression was back again full swing. That’s when I said dam this lifter stuff I will just put a new set of lifters in and see what happens then. This bloody car has been driving me crazy for months’. My wife seen it and wanted it and I believing I can fix the thing went and bought it and have been doing nothing but working on it ever since. It is a very nice vehicle and yes it will be worth all the effort in the end but I no longer believe it will work out as cheap as I originally anticipated. I was in the middle of all this and my ford went down, it took me days and days to discover it was a crank sensor. Now back to the commodore and then my solar water went down I have just finished fixing that, then down went my solar power invert-er. Warranty there could take forever. Then My air-conditioner went up in flames. Even my still broke down. Attached is a pic of my trailer now amounting up with stuffed engines broken still and burnt out air conditioning.
So you can understand it hasn’t been a good ending to the year. May the new year bring something New. How can a lifter with push-rod and rocker arm be too long? Too short I can understand piston is stuck down in lifter body or something. But too long holding valve open all the time, that I just can’t understand. That’s when I said dam it put a new set of lifters in and see what happens then.
What thinks’ thou now Gentlemen.

http://nasa.eu.pn/trail.jpg

http://nasa.eu.pn/trail2.jpg

[Micks]

Give it a try mate. Hope you have some better luck soon!

[whitels1ss]

I wish you the best of luck mate. :cheers:

[nasa]

Well. Guys I did try to upload a couple of pics but apparently I don't know how to do that so I will upload a couple of little movies instead.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AVTWJgSpog

[nasa]

I will post after lifter installation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJh_PW_RvH8

[Micks]

You certainly know how to break Ecotecs!! & here was thinking they aren't a bad engine :lol:

[nasa]

Yesterday the lifters arrived Grrrrrr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oow_ukNTL1c

[whitels1ss]

Thanks heaps for posting that very entertaining & informative video buddy! :lmao:

[Micks]

Op needs to buy a lottery ticket perhaps :lol:

[Jason01]

Op needs to buy a lottery ticket perhaps :lol:


It'd be a waste of money Mick, with his bad luck he sure as shit isn't going to win it.

OP, can you get hold of a mechanic's stethoscope, it might help you get a better idea where the noise is coming from because from your original video it sounds way more terminal than a dud lifter.

[zorro]

Set fire to the thing and buy an AU wagon on gas

[nasa]

OK well I put the new lifters in, the whole eleven and an old one to test run.
It did run a lot smoother without the miss however the knock became very obvious now. I do believe it is a big end now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5okXbYgcI

[Micks]

Least you know now & will be an Ecotec expert when completed! ;)

[Devil CV8]

Before you pull the engine down make sure you check the flex plate as suggested above

[zorro]

Surely you can find a whole commodore on Scumtree for $20?

Drop the oil and see if anything metallic in there that will confirm your thoughts. Sounds bearing to me.

Good luck working something out with the supplier, would think they would come to party seeing as you have video of it first start

[nasa]

Finally it is out again for the third time LOL.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/engine_zpswefu6yqa.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/outcar_zpsla1yafc8.jpg

[jc_sv8]

I'm glad you can see the funny side, I would have binned it by now.

[duke5700]

Not much bearing left in that one..

[Micks]

This is the most interesting thread on LS1 atm, good on you for having a go to get it sorted, btw that engine/box is very clean ;)

[BLACK 346]

This is the most interesting thread on LS1 atm, good on you for having a go to get it sorted, btw that engine/box is very clean ;)

Exactly what I was thinking Mick. My motor is fine, but thinking of dropping it off to this bloke so he can pull the motor out and clean it for me.

ps...Good luck mate, your deserve a change in fortune.

[zorro]

Considered throwing an lsjuan in it yet?

[Jason01]

One positive is it sounds like you got it to run on six cylinders, from the photo it looks like a fairly clean car. Hopefully the wreckers will come good with some refund money or another short block at least, all the best getting it sorted man, you deserve some good fortune.

[nasa]

Project is still underway. I sent a copy of the video to the wrecker and took the engine back and got a full refund.
I am now searching for an engine that I can hear running before I buy it.
It may mean I have to pull it out myself but then I am getting used to that.
I took a break from the commodore and went to the air -con and installed another compressor, only to discover that the Kelvinator compressor
and the Panasonic evaporator will not talk to each other so that was a wast of time as well. Besides the wast of time aircon I will include a pic of something that has us bewildered.
I have a friend who is working on a 4 liter straight 6 ford at the moment and he had trouble with the auto trans so he pulled it out with intentions of replacing the trans. When he took the cooling lines off at the trans something was sticking out of one of the lines so he pulled it out and this is what it was at first it seems like steel wool however on close examination it is made up of shreds from a tiny drill. It is also golden on one end and if you rub the golden end it will come of as tiny little flakes of gold. Of course it is not gold or I would help him put it back together and make some more. It is like some golden thing is getting worn down but where did this filter like thing come from I have never seen any thing like it before, was just jammed in the cooling pipe.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/gold_zpst2athlrx.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/P1180022_zpszoghgz8m.jpg

[duke5700]

Do you think posting unlicensed electrical work on what is a public forum is a very good idea?

[Micks]

went to the air -con and installed another compressor, only to discover that the Kelvinator compressor
and the Panasonic evaporator will not talk to each other so that was a wast of time as well.

Should have posted that before would have told you straight a big "No"!!!
Throw both those heaps of shit a way & buy a decent system! :yup:

[nasa]

Damm more money.
And Duke what looks unlicensed about that.? It was just a dry test run.
I happen to be a professor of NR01 and NR02. So yes I should have known better.
But I just happened to have this mismatch on hand and being there is no real
expansion valve to control, just capillary. I thought maybe just maybe.
Most great discovery's were made by accident you know.

[Jason01]

Project is still underway. I sent a copy of the video to the wrecker and took the engine back and got a full refund.


Great to hear, not with the brand new lifters still in it though I hope :eek:.



I happen to be a professor of NR01 and NR02. So yes I should have known better.


Please forgive my ignorance but what's a professor of NR01 and NR02?

[nasa]

No I didn’t give the new lifters away I took the whole eleven of them out and the rear plate
with my new seal and the timing cover with my new seal I have them ready for a new found engine when it turns up.

Queensland Tafe NRO1 and NRO2
Refrigeration Fundamentals.
These courses are basically the introduction to refrigeration and air conditioning.
Most guys who do these are compelled to because they are necessary before being qualified to
Study whatever branch of refrigeration or air conditioning they have chosen as a trade.
I did these after retirement purely because of curiosity as to how refrigeration works.
Do these courses cover the electrical wiring of air conditioners and compressors?
Yes, they do and they also put you in a position that you are qualified to purchase refrigeration
equipment at cost price as tradesman can. However the real truth is what these courses actually teach
you is just enough to get you INTO trouble .LOL.

[nasa]

Zorro.. What on earth is an lsjuan I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Micks]

Do these courses cover the electrical wiring of air conditioners and compressors?
Yes, they do and they also put you in a position that you are qualified to purchase refrigeration
equipment at cost price as tradesman can.

What those courses cannot give you is real on the job experience no course can do that! ;)

[amckiwi]

Say it out loud and maybe like a Mexican

[nasa]

What those courses cannot give you is real on the job experience no course can do that!
So true Micks so true.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7jNFgjGkyk

[nasa]

Well Guys here I am at three month's into this commodore building , LOL.
I have just acquired another motor and am in the process of resealing it.
You know what they say. Third time lucky.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/newmot_zps4mszjmae.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/newmot2_zpslfdzj517.jpg

[Micks]

Hope this goes better for you than the previous ones! After this you will be the go to man for Ecotec woes in Cairns ;)

[nasa]

Well good fellows I really have no idea what mileage is on this engine.
But I have pulled it down ready for new seals and gaskets and I was surprised to
see the condition of the cylinder walls and the chain tensioner.
Judging by the following pics anyone care to take a guess at the mileage.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/P2190018_zpsmizvwqfh.jpg http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/P2190024_zpskleddzdi.jpg

[jc_sv8]

350k.......

[nasa]

Here we go putting another engine in for the third time.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/P1010007_zpsx2ik9zcq.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/P1010008_zpslhdyllur.jpg

[Jason01]

Good luck mate, you deserve it.

[FrangaFry]

Good luck mate, you deserve it.

Totally agree!!

Best of luck with this one buddy.

[whitels1ss]

Yeah, best of luck mate,
lets look forward to seeing your next post being another youtube clip of her running as sweet as a nut real soon.:cheers:

[huggies]

nice thread to read.
cleanest ecotech/trans combo ive ever seen.
hope the new engine is a winner!!!

[nasa]

Got it going again and now have an injector tick problem from the cheaper blue injectors.
I will put another set of recon Bosh injectors in to be rid of the ticking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iMXC0u7tqY&feature=youtu.be

I have the nose in the shed so I can replace the injectors now. I have also replaced the radiator and heater hoses.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/nosein_zpsh5oauei8.jpg

Vally cover is off. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/vallyoff_zpsc27vhh7a.jpg

These are the offending injectors. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/offenders_zps7vqvjefw.jpg

Using some old injectors to make noid lights. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/lighton_zpszcw7ecr0.jpg

Some tools I just cant work without. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/tools_zpspwwxi2cu.jpg

Am waiting on new injectors now . Lets just hope six arrive and not five in a box LOL

[whitels1ss]

Very hard to diagnose from your sound clip
& I honestly hope I am wrong mate
but that noise sounds more like valve gear or lifter problems to me from what I can hear.

I would be holding a large screwdriver handle to my ear & the blade end on the injectors
or even unplugging them one by one to diagnose the problem before I started ordering any more parts. :cheers:

[Micks]

Yes would be good idea to check oil pressure too.

[whitels1ss]

Did you have the engine running for any length of time? (in case it is low oil feed to the top of the engine & could have quietened itself somewhat?)

Did you at least have a look inside the oil filler cap or remove a rocker cover to see if the oil is getting to the top of the engine?

What makes you think it is noisy fuel injectors?

As I posted above, I honestly hope I am wrong about the problem being deeper, I am just trying to help! :cheers:

[nasa]

I have an engine stethoscope. When I listen to the fuel rail it is extremely obvious. If I move just off the rail an touch anywhere else it is just not there. I had already put together another Commy for my wife.
I could not hear any noise in that one but when I put the stethoscope on her fuel rail there is the exact same sound you just cant hear it without the stethoscope. I have already ordered a set of reconditioned genuine bosh injectors. I rang the dude in Melbourne and told him I would buy if he would express post. He said he always express posted. I ordered and paid and waited 8 days and then rang him and he said he would go to the post office and check. I then received a tracking number from him that showed me he went and just posted them after I rang him the second time .LOL I may be lucky and get them on Friday but I am not relying on it.
I have faith it is in the injectors, I eventually did get the last new lifter in the mail so there is a full set of new lifters in this engine. I will await the late injectors and put them in and see what happens then. I have been working on the dash warning lights like SRS light was on because we had removed the seats and re-plugged them in, A No No I now realize, I have bought a plug that connects the diagnostic port to one pf our laptops and runs diagnostic programs. I ran Envyous Customs SRS program and it shown me that the light will stay on until you remove the entry from the history file, I did that and now all is fine with the SRS light. Without the program and the cable you would have to have service personal do this for you. Sound a bit like blackmail to me.

[whitels1ss]

I have an engine stethoscope. When I listen to the fuel rail it is extremely obvious. If I move just off the rail an touch anywhere else it is just not there. I had already put together another Commy for my wife.
I could not hear any noise in that one but when I put the stethoscope on her fuel rail there is the exact same sound you just cant hear it without the stethoscope. I have already ordered a set of reconditioned genuine bosh injectors. I rang the dude in Melbourne and told him I would buy if he would express post. He said he always express posted. I ordered and paid and waited 8 days and then rang him and he said he would go to the post office and check. I then received a tracking number from him that showed me he went and just posted them after I rang him the second time .LOL I may be lucky and get them on Friday but I am not relying on it.
I have faith it is in the injectors, I eventually did get the last new lifter in the mail so there is a full set of new lifters in this engine. I will await the late injectors and put them in and see what happens then. I have been working on the dash warning lights like SRS light was on because we had removed the seats and re-plugged them in, A No No I now realize, I have bought a plug that connects the diagnostic port to one pf our laptops and runs diagnostic programs. I ran Envyous Customs SRS program and it shown me that the light will stay on until you remove the entry from the history file, I did that and now all is fine with the SRS light. Without the program and the cable you would have to have service personal do this for you. Sound a bit like blackmail to me.

Well, best of luck with it mate, as I said, hard to diagnose from sound clip & honestly hope I am wrong.

Your "Envyous Customs SRS program" sounds like a good little bit of stuff. :goodjob:

[nasa]

Thanks guys I will post after I install the injectors.
I was thinking if I am going to stick with commodores I may as well buy the goddamm scanner.
So I started downloading scanner manuales to read in anticipation of learning to operate.
In the process I came across this cable that just connect to you comp by usb and you can run the diagnostic
programs like that. I bought this bundle. ALDL Cable + SDT Bundle. $100 but by the time you add GST and express postage from WA it was about $122. I put the program in my wife's laptop so I am forever stuck with that now. They email you the reg number for the program. Then you cant install in more than one comp because it continually phones home to check CPU fingerprint against reg number and if it sees another CPU it will shut the reg down.The reg number works for the SRS program but you have to go to a web page address to get the other programs working for over 1050 days I have not yet tried the other programs because I already had the
Injectors out when the program arrived. But it worked on the air bags exactly as the you tube video shows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594V22RDQOI


Link to where I bought the cable and software. http://www.envyouscustoms.com/

[whitels1ss]

Thanks guys I will post after I install the injectors.
I was thinking if I am going to stick with commodores I may as well buy the goddamm scanner.
So I started downloading scanner manuales to read in anticipation of learning to operate.
In the process I came across this cable that just connect to you comp by usb and you can run the diagnostic
programs like that. I bought this bundle. ALDL Cable + SDT Bundle. $100 but by the time you add GST and express postage from WA it was about $122. I put the program in my wife's laptop so I am forever stuck with that now. They email you the reg number for the program. Then you cant install in more than one comp because it continually phones home to check CPU fingerprint against reg number and if it sees another CPU it will shut the reg down.The reg number works for the SRS program but you have to go to a web page address to get the other programs working for over 1050 days I have not yet tried the other programs because I already had the
Injectors out when the program arrived. But it worked on the air bags exactly as the you tube video shows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594V22RDQOI


Link to where I bought the cable and software. http://www.envyouscustoms.com/

Actually, I looked them up and you can buy them on ebay today for $75 inc postage

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-ALDL-CABLE-HOLDEN-COMMODORE-VR-VS-VT-VX-VY-OBD-AIRBAG-DIAGNOSTIC-SCANTOOL-/161570877028?hash=item259e5fee64:g:1DEAAOxy-WxTBDl9


But unfortunately what I saw listed does not do any of the same engine diagnostics
as it does on the V6 on any LS1 engines otherwise I might have bought one today.

[Woodchukka]

Certainly has been a journey for you. Hopefully running smooth soon.

[Jason01]

It sounds like lifters/valve train noise to me, maybe the plunger height in the new lifters is different so the preload has ended up wrong. I hope for your sake it's not though nasa, best of luck.

Jason.

[nasa]

Well the new reconditioned injectors finally arrived .. The whole 6 of them ..LOL.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/P3170001_zpss38rgy2j.jpg

[nasa]

Ok got the injectors in ..However..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwWRfdi_1Yg&feature=youtu.be

[nasa]

Fixed but not found.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RmzWOKrRXg&feature=youtu.be

[nasa]

Seems happy now..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICZsjEQU3fM&feature=youtu.be

[nasa]

At lest now we are inside the vehicle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tOCsIO3NVY&feature=youtu.be

[nasa]

Still problems.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69yGf9ZCJn0&feature=youtu.be

[nasa]

Getting there.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklFv8tfh3k&feature=youtu.be

[Micks]

That's great news mate :goodjob: Have used Jasons software before but not keen on his 30 day or yearly subscription.
You'll be finally able to clean up your shed now :lol:

[Peter B - CV8]

"Trac Off" indicates that your traction control button is in the off/disabled position. It should default to the on/activated position every time the car is turned off/restarted

[Jason01]

Maybe it's just the phone camera microphone but it still sounds the same to me, and not like injectors. Good luck if your happy with it though, I hope you can get it rego'd ok and finally get to drive it.

[nasa]

Finally.

Thanks for being here Guys.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/full_zpsm5mvhysh.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/part_zpsu6xiywmh.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/leslie_harrison1/regnumclose_zps7gswadnj.jpg

[Jason01]

Well done man, I hope you get good reliable service out of the old bus. :goodjob:

[jc_sv8]

Every time I saw an update to this thread I used to hold my breathe!
Glad it's all worked out for the best, enjoy the ride now.

[Micks]

Just remember following a minor rebuild like this it will take some mileage for the train to settle down. I know it took a few thousand K's following a top end rebuild of my L98, either that or I just got used to it :lol:

[huggies]

great to see you got it on the road.
well done