VE SSV hot start problem

[kompiler]

Hi guys,

I've got an ongoing issue with my VE SSV that I'm hoping someone may be able to help with. Sorry up front for the long winded explanation :)

A few months ago we were having trouble starting our 2010 SSV and thinking that it was the battery, got NRMA out to replace it. He reported the battery was fine and it just needed a bit of a run so took it for a 1 hour drive. Stopped at the shops around the corner on the way home and it wouldn't restart. After a number of attempts it finally fired (barely) with the dash lit up like a Christmas tree and we made it home, albeit in limp mode I think (felt sluggish and lurched a bit).

Booked it in with our mechanic and he found the computer had a stored code regarding crank angle sensor so got him to replace both that as well as the cam shaft sensor. The mechanic also took it to his auto-electrician mate who couldn't find any thing else wrong so we got it back thinking everything would be fine.

After this, it never quite felt right. Sometimes it would take a few seconds to fire after a restart. Anyhow, it was only used for short trips around home for a while since I wasn't certain I trusted it to go much further.

Anyhow, last weekend we took it for another ~1 hour drive and while sitting at a set of lights the engine light came on again and the dash check engine light came on again. Limped home and shut it down and then could not restart it what-so-ever.
Next morning, go out and it starts fine.

Spoke to our mechanic again and he was at a loss as to what it could be. Suggested booking it in with Holden to see what they said.

Took in it to Holden telling them I had just had the crank and cam sensors replaced and that the problem seemed to manifest itself when the engine was hot. They had it for a week and returned it saying nothing was wrong. The stored code again pointed to crank angle sensor but since it had just been replaced, suggested it was unlikely the cause.

So, here I am with a car that my wife refuses to drive and no one seems to be able to fix?

Does anyone have any suggestions as I'm at a loss.

I did read else where that a non-genuine crank angle sensor could be the problem but both my mechanic and Holden didn't seem to think that was case. Holden want another $500 to replace it with a genuine sensor with no guarantee it will fix the problem.

Thoughts?

Thanks for reading

Cheers
Komp

[Micks]

Sounds like you could be chasing a fuel problem, has filter been changed?

[whitels1ss]

I recently had similar intermittent starting problems on a Ford.
Damn fault was also causing it to show all sorts of bullshit codes which didn't help.

Auto electrician checked it out & convinced me to replace the starter motor.
I replaced the starter motor & it was exactly the same.:doh:

I traced it down myself to a simple bad earth.

All the best with it mate! :cheers:

[kompiler]

Thanks for the reply guys.

The filter has been changed recently so I doubt that could be it?
The first mechanic also took it to an auto-electrician who went over everything and give it the thumbs up.

Anyway, last weekend took it for a 1 hour drive and when I got home, the car restarted the first couple of times but then failed. Dash lit up again so limped it back to Holden. They confirmed the stored code related to crank angle sensor again so against my better judgement I had them replace it (for the second time).

Got the car back and took it for a long drive. The car restarted fine 5 times out of 6 but one was extremely laboured and just not right. Here is the problematic restart:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_E9vfKl5E&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_E9vfKl5E&feature=youtu.be

Holden are now *guessing* that it could be battery (even though we stated NRMA had been out to test it) or the starter motor (which I find hard to believe as it has only just reached 60,000 k's). Neither of these seems to makes sense that it would only occur when the engine was HOT?

Anyway, I'm at my wits end with getting this fixed. No one seems to have a clue and are just guessing now. Meanwhile here I am footing the bill :(

Cheers
Komp

[whitels1ss]

FFS they should be able to test a battery, it's nothing to do with "guessing"! :lmao:

[Micks]

I have seen a few cases where batteries can have slight short circuits evident when they get hot/charged. So it's possible to check out ok at other times.

[whitels1ss]

I am still thinking it's most likely in the wiring, either a bad power wire or more likely a bad or weak earth somewhere.

[white lie]

Thanks for the reply guys.

The filter has been changed recently so I doubt that could be it?
The first mechanic also took it to an auto-electrician who went over everything and give it the thumbs up.

Anyway, last weekend took it for a 1 hour drive and when I got home, the car restarted the first couple of times but then failed. Dash lit up again so limped it back to Holden. They confirmed the stored code related to crank angle sensor again so against my better judgement I had them replace it (for the second time).

Got the car back and took it for a long drive. The car restarted fine 5 times out of 6 but one was extremely laboured and just not right. Here is the problematic restart:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_E9vfKl5E&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_E9vfKl5E&feature=youtu.be

Holden are now *guessing* that it could be battery (even though we stated NRMA had been out to test it) or the starter motor (which I find hard to believe as it has only just reached 60,000 k's). Neither of these seems to makes sense that it would only occur when the engine was HOT?

Anyway, I'm at my wits end with getting this fixed. No one seems to have a clue and are just guessing now. Meanwhile here I am footing the bill :(

Cheers
Komp
The resistance in the starter motor and wiring goes up when hot. This causes a larger than normal voltage drop as the starter pulls more current from the battery.

When the battery voltage drops quite low, it's not uncommon to get miscellaneous warnings pop up. Generally it's traction control, ABS etc issues.

Watch the voltage when you turn it over and compare it when it's cold vs hot.

And as Ed is saying, a poor earth or even corrosion on the main positive wire will also have a similar effect as the connection isn't solid enough to complete the circuit.

One would like to think a reputable mechanic checks these sorts of things out though!

[Micks]

The resistance in the starter motor and wiring goes up when hot. This causes a larger than normal voltage drop as the starter pulls more current from the battery.

When the battery voltage drops quite low, it's not uncommon to get miscellaneous warnings pop up. Generally it's traction control, ABS etc issues.

Watch the voltage when you turn it over and compare it when it's cold vs hot.

And as Ed is saying, a poor earth or even corrosion on the main positive wire will also have a similar effect as the connection isn't solid enough to complete the circuit.

One would like to think a reputable mechanic checks these sorts of things out though!

Whilst not impossible a HR joint in a modern/low Km is unlikely unless off course it's been played with or had it from the start!
I'm sure the specialists will sort it though ;)

[kompiler]

The resistance in the starter motor and wiring goes up when hot. This causes a larger than normal voltage drop as the starter pulls more current from the battery.

When the battery voltage drops quite low, it's not uncommon to get miscellaneous warnings pop up. Generally it's traction control, ABS etc issues.

Watch the voltage when you turn it over and compare it when it's cold vs hot.

And as Ed is saying, a poor earth or even corrosion on the main positive wire will also have a similar effect as the connection isn't solid enough to complete the circuit.

One would like to think a reputable mechanic checks these sorts of things out though!

Whilst the majority of the problems are hot start issues, the second time it logged the crank angle sensor code (dash lit up) was when sitting stationary at a set of lights (as mentioned in the opening post). I agree that battery *could* explain why we couldn't restart it once we got home but I don't understand how it would of affected a running vehicle?

Does this then lend more credence to the bad earth suggestion?

Thanks for the response :)

[Micks]

The crank sensor should last more than 60K! When I changed my VZ 6L starter a few years ago I also changed my CS as it sits right behind the starter & didn't want to go their twice!!
I reckon for the lesser cost go for a new batt, easy fit yourself in under 10mins.

[kompiler]

When I changed my VZ 6L starter a few years ago I also changed my CS as it sits right behind the starter & didn't want to go their twice!!

Out of interest, how many km's did you get out of the starter?

[Micks]

Out of interest, how many km's did you get out of the starter?

Approx. 88/90K on my VZ. Though was actually a faulty solenoid, most VZ/VE's 6L's suffer from same problem. GM actually sell replacement solenoids as a serviceable spare part too.

[white lie]

Can't you go in to engineering mode and check the 'health' of the battery in VE's?

The alternator is computer controlled though, so if the battery is somewhat crook, it may be under/over charging. Just throwing out more ideas!

[Micks]

Can't you go in to engineering mode and check the 'health' of the battery in VE's?

The alternator is computer controlled though, so if the battery is somewhat crook, it may be under/over charging. Just throwing out more ideas!

Gives voltage.

[white lie]

Gives voltage.
Doesn't it also give a percentage?

[Micks]

Doesn't it also give a percentage?

That's right it does % of charge. ;)

[Wonky]

VEs are very susceptible to any manner of strange things happening when the battery is on the way out. Has it been checked with a conductive battery tester?

I watched a YouTube video on testing batteries using multiple methods and the only tester which found a fault in a problematical battery was the conductive tester. Over the years I've had a number of batteries which auto elecs etc have said are fine when they really weren't, so I bought one of the conductive testers.

Have searched for the video but can't find it so far. :(

[Wonky]

Found it!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi8sUE9XCgA

[SimonNQ]

Thanks for the reply guys.

The filter has been changed recently so I doubt that could be it?
The first mechanic also took it to an auto-electrician who went over everything and give it the thumbs up.

Anyway, last weekend took it for a 1 hour drive and when I got home, the car restarted the first couple of times but then failed. Dash lit up again so limped it back to Holden. They confirmed the stored code related to crank angle sensor again so against my better judgement I had them replace it (for the second time).

Got the car back and took it for a long drive. The car restarted fine 5 times out of 6 but one was extremely laboured and just not right. Here is the problematic restart:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_E9vfKl5E&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_E9vfKl5E&feature=youtu.be

Holden are now *guessing* that it could be battery (even though we stated NRMA had been out to test it) or the starter motor (which I find hard to believe as it has only just reached 60,000 k's). Neither of these seems to makes sense that it would only occur when the engine was HOT?

Anyway, I'm at my wits end with getting this fixed. No one seems to have a clue and are just guessing now. Meanwhile here I am footing the bill :(

Cheers
Komp

The symptoms you listed here also lead me to believe it is battery oriented. You said it started 5 times out of 6, well without running for a decent amount of time between these 6 starts you would have drained quite a bit of the batteries voltage reserves without replenishing..

I put in a very good battery into mine as it also had some weird issues, mine is also a MY10, I have had zero issues since.. My car has had the battery terminals replaced, so I can run just about any battery that fits in the tray. Currently I have one from Battery World, not sure of the model, the previous battery was an Odyssey PC1220.

Simon

[Wonky]

Yep, I suspect battery too. [emoji106]

[kompiler]

Found it!!

Awesome video, thanks very much for sharing it!!


The symptoms you listed here also lead me to believe it is battery oriented. You said it started 5 times out of 6, well without running for a decent amount of time between these 6 starts you would have drained quite a bit of the batteries voltage reserves without replenishing..

The video of it having trouble starting was the 2nd restart out of the 6 or so, not the last. Ie, it started the 1st time, spluttered 2nd time (video), started fine the next 4 or so times.

I definitely hear all the suggestions regarding battery but just to reiterate:

Issue only appears when the engine is HOT. Never had an issue cold starting it even when sitting idle for a week.
The last time a crank code was logged was while the car was running. Not during a restart.
The attached video was of it restarting the 2nd time out of half a dozen or more. Subsequent restarts were fine.


If it still sounds like battery with the above points, I'll go ahead and replace it.

Once again, I'd just like to say thanks again to you guys who are helping. I really do appreciate it :cheers:

[SimonNQ]

Can you see the the Brand and model of Battery NRMA fitted?

[Wonky]

If it still sounds like battery with the above points, I'll go ahead and replace it.

Before you go to that expense I'd have the battery checked by an auto elec with a conductive battery tester, which any decent auto elec should have.

Amazon have them, which is where I got mine from. Much cheaper than any on eBay at under $US70 inc shipping and stuff I've bought from Amazon US typically arrives in about a week.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015PI7A4