Caprice WN II starter motors failing too often?

[skip100]

My MY17 Caprice has done 210,000km, and has had the starter motor replaced THREE times, and I think it now needs another one. Any ideas why they keep failing?
I dropped into MyCar today - they said that the starter motor is situated too close to the big hot V8, and this could be why they are failing so often. Opinions?
I am a hire car driver, so yes, the engine does get started frequently, but this is my third Caprice (second V8), and I've never had the starter motors fail as often as this before.
Assuming it is the starter motor again, it has only done 27,000km since it was last replaced, so will still be under warranty. It has not yet failed to start, but it's very sluggish.
I notice that when the starter motor is replaced, the starting is very strong initially, but it doesn't take long at all before the starting becomes somewhat weaker. (I notice the decline in only a matter of weeks)

If I'm going to have to keep replacing starter motors, are there any aftermarket ones that are worth considering?

Is it possible to improve the heat shielding somehow?

[R8HSVHRT]

Are these the genuien starters that are failing ?

[skip100]

Yes. Note that another symptom is that it will "click" the first time, without turning over at all, but will start the second time. My understanding is that when this happens, it's the solenoid.
The current starter motor has not exhibited that symptom yet.
I have purchased the aftermarket one, and am waiting as long as I can before I install it. Still no starting failures, but it often doesn't sound healthy. (sometimes it DOES sound healthy though)

[R8HSVHRT]

Have you checked the battery as that could be the issue this time round ,,, as far as the aftermarket starter dont see how they could be any better

[skip100]

Yes - the battery has been checked, but I'll have it checked again, just before we install the new starter.
I don't expect the aftermarket one to be any better, but I'm crossing my fingers the cost over time will be less, because they are significantly cheaper. I.e - even if they are a bit WORSE, I'd still be better off.

[CLUBRED]

Dealer told me the last few production runs Holden cheaped out on components where they could, when my battery exploded in my '17 they said i was lucky it lasted as long as it did (it wasn't even an ACDelco).

[skip100]

Just replaced the starter motor with the aforementioned cheap one from eBay, just 48,000km after it had been fitted. The mechanic said my battery is fine. It never actually failed to start, but sometimes was just too sluggish for comfort. It'll be interesting to see how long this one will last.

[SASLS1]

Is your OEM starter "Heat Shield" re-installed with your new aftermarket starter?

Lots of lazy ass mechanics don't refit them.

It will help prolong the life of the starter motor.

[skip100]

Dunno - I'll get them to check when this one needs replacing, probably in about a year. 😀

[Wonky]

The mechanic said my battery is fine. It never actually failed to start, but sometimes was just too sluggish for comfort. It'll be interesting to see how long this one will last.

I'd be interested to know how he tested it. Over my many long years with cars I've had a few instances when a battery tested as fine but in actual fact wasn't. Only one reliable way to test - reasonably recent addition to the market. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi8sUE9XCgA

[skip100]

I called today's mechanic - he said there was no heat shield. Booked in at the dealer this Thursday. Stay tuned!

[SASLS1]

I called today's mechanic - he said there was no heat shield. Booked in at the dealer this Thursday. Stay tuned!


When I bought my VZ 6.0L Thunder ute 2nd hand, it had DiFilippo headers already installed and guess what... no OEM starter heat shield fitted......

Who ever installed the headers was too lazy... to re-install the heat shield.

When my starter died from excessive heat, I bought a brand new OEM starter from Holden, and I also bought a brand new OEM starter heat shield for it too, which was still available at the time, only about $30.

So fitted the new OEM starter & OEM heat shield myself and it clears the DiFilippo headers which are quite close to the starter solenoid.

So far the new OEM starter with the correct OEM heat shield fitted, has done just over 100,000 + Kms with zero starting issues.

[Micks]

I found fitting an aftermarket starter to my 6L that the original oem heat shield would not suit/fit properly around this unit hence I left it off. So far 3 1/2 years later with 1-7/8 pipes no problems.

[skip100]

The heat shield IS actually missing, but unfortunately the intermittent sluggish starting has returned already, so I don't think this is the problem. (unless the new SM has degraded VERY rapidly due to heat, which I doubt)
So as some of you suspected, the needle of suspicion is on the battery now.
One little thing I notice - watching the voltage as I drive, it's often hovering at around 12.1 - 12.3V. Is it normal for the BMS to allow it to get that low? I took two measurements with the engine off but accessories on (i.e long press of ignition button) - on one occasion it read 11.9V, and the other 12.2V. This is using the dash readout.
Just after the SM was replaced, it started very well indeed, so I assumed that this was the problem, but not to be.
I have the heatshield ready to be fitted, and I also have the SM that was removed, in case we want to switch back to it.
Next step might be simply to replace the battery though.
What is the minimum acceptable voltage across the SM during cranking?
What is the expected voltage drop from the battery (which resides in the boot), to the SM?
Other than the connections, is there anything else in the electrical path that could have an intermittently excessive resistance?

[Wonky]

If you have any questions over the battery there's only one reliable method of checking it IMO and most garages don't have them. One reliable method - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi8sUE9XCgA

[Wonky]

ears ago I bought the Solar BA7 which is the one he uses in the video. Perfect for me! At that time I had to buy from America but now Amazon AU has them for $69.21 with free delivery and my experience as an Amazon Prime member is they're extremely quick!! I once ordered something late Sunday evening and it was delivered by 10am Monday morning! :thumbsup:
https://www.amazon.com.au/BA7-100-1200.../dp/B0015PI7A4/

[Wonky]

WTF??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I just went to that link again and it now says $113.13! However, it now gives the slightly better BA9 for $57.40. https://www.amazon.com.au/BA9-40-1200-Digital-Battery-System-dp-B00IZFNJ6Y/dp/B00IZFNJ6Y/

[skip100]

Ok thanks. In the meantime, my multimeter can capture the minimum voltage during cranking - if the battery can maintain voltage during cranking, then that rules out the battery, I would have thought.

[Wonky]

I'm not sure but for $57 I'd get the BA9. I love my BA7. :)

[skip100]

Two measurements so far (both good starts) 9.6V & 10V, taken near the battery. I suppose if the cranking voltage is *higher* than normal during a sluggish start, that would indicate an increase in resistance (bad connection, or relay, etc). It will be interesting to see. I'm carrying a jump starter with me now.

[skip100]

Measured 8.5V during a sluggish start, so have put a new battery in. Fingers crossed.

[Micks]

Measured 8.5V during a sluggish start, so have put a new battery in. Fingers crossed.

Perhaps have the alternator checked too, it's charge rate is regulated by the pcm.

[skip100]

Noted.
Btw, the battery that we took out (which I have retained), has a label which says "maximum charge voltage 14.6V". That seems a bit dubious to me, because I've seen voltages as high as 14.9V. I'm wondering whether it's the right chemistry - my understanding is that it's supposed to be a lead-calcium battery, which can indeed take voltages as high as 14.9V. It was installed by a dealer, too. The new battery is definitely fully genuine, and looks to be the right type.

[Micks]

Noted.
Btw, the battery that we took out (which I have retained), has a label which says "maximum charge voltage 14.6V". That seems a bit dubious to me, because I've seen voltages as high as 14.9V. I'm wondering whether it's the right chemistry - my understanding is that it's supposed to be a lead-calcium battery, which can indeed take voltages as high as 14.9V. It was installed by a dealer, too. The new battery is definitely fully genuine, and looks to be the right type.

There would be a percentage of error calculated in the charge of the batteries of +or- 10% if it constantly saw 16V+ there would be a problem! :)

[skip100]

Looked up the specs of the battery that was removed - it is actually lead-calcium. (and I get the impression most starter batteries are now a flavour of lead-calcium)
So far so good with the new one. Took a cranking voltage reading: 10.2V.

[skip100]

Becoming sluggish again. The replacement battery wasn't actually *brand* new (was sitting at home for a few years, regularly topped up), so have put in a brand new, and larger (780CCA) one. Very first start not particularly strong, but ok. I don't really suspect the alternator, because the voltage seems to cycle up and down normally - from low 12's, to high 14's.
Is it possible that there is a mechanical issue with the engine itself, causing an increase in mechanical load on the starter motor? Seems to be mainly a problem when the engine is hot.

[skip100]

Genuine starter motor is being ordered.This is getting expensive.

[skip100]

Still waiting for the genuine motor, but in the meantime the aftermarket one has been working well in recent days.
FYI, I stumbled on this class action for starter problems with the Camaro:
https://www.classaction.org/chevy-camaro-starter-problems-lawsuits

[Micks]

Still waiting for the genuine motor, but in the meantime the aftermarket one has been working well in recent days.
FYI, I stumbled on this class action for starter problems with the Camaro:
https://www.classaction.org/chevy-camaro-starter-problems-lawsuits

Had the a/m Chinese one in my L98 for over three years no problems.

[skip100]

I didn't try an aftermarket starter on my L98 Caprice (two cars ago), because I didn't have any need to - the starter motor lasted ok.

[skip100]

(checked my log: I replaced the starter motor once, at 221,000km, on my 2008 L98 Caprice - got rid of the car at 250,000)

[Micks]

(checked my log: I replaced the starter motor once, at 221,000km, on my 2008 L98 Caprice - got rid of the car at 250,000)

You probably did well at 221K, my oem one on the 06 went well before then!

[skip100]

Out of morbid curiousity, I have left the aftermarket one in, and fitted the heat shield. I purchased the genuine one and will keep it for next time. The genuine one cost me $577, the aftermarket one $180.

[Micks]

Yes, I paid about $100 for the cheap China one with a lifetime warranty, don't like me chances of the warranty though! :lmao:

[skip100]

Still working fine. Wondering whether the new battery was a bit flat when it went in. If it starts happening again, I'm set up to capture the voltage and current waveforms with an oscilloscope.
In the meantime I have a far bigger problem - lifter noise returning a mere 15K after a rebuild. (the mechanic has taken a listen - he's genuinely concerned)

[skip100]

Staying off topic - the engine problem is a broken rocker arm. The mechanic does a lot of rebuilds of these engines, and a lot of hire cars - he's never seen this happen on a hire car before.

[Micks]

Nor have we? :confused: