ECU Question:

[FrangaFry]

Howdy all, yet another question for those who know far more than I ever will.

You guys may be aware that I have been chasing an issue with a hard starting issue with my Wagon.

The issue is: Up until fairly recently my Wags would start on the very first crank .......... now, I have to crank and crank and crank before she finally fires (this may not be a big issue for most folks but it gives me the absolute shits and also means I can no longer use my remote start on my Viper alarm system).

Things I have done to track it down:
- New coil packs
- Cleaned injectors
- New leads/plugs
- New O2 sensors
- Replaced relays and fuses
- New fuel filter
- Checked fuel pump, fuel pressure and fuel rails
- Confirmed tune is not the issue (re flashed with historical tune and had Luis @ APS check the current tune)
- Had an auto elec spend a day trying to figure it out if there is an electrical issue (nothing found - no codes from scan tool and nothing obvious for him the trace)

So, I am running out of ideas ..........

A possibility is the ECU .......... I have 'heard' there is a known issue with VY/VZ's where a dry solder joint in the ECU causes similar issue to those I am experiencing ...... but, Auto elec didn't know anything about it and could not track or confirm this as an issue.

As a result, I am thinking change the ECU and re flash it with the tune?

What I am not sure of (and neither was the auto elec or APS) is, can I just replace the ECU and 're pair' it with the BCM and key lock system or will I need to replace the ECU, BCM and the key lock system (that sounds expensive .........)?

The issue only started to occur after my previous tune @ APS during the first COVID lockdown so it could be the tune or it could be the fact she sat for so long .......... Luis is adamant it's not the tune (and I think he has proven that by reloading the previous tune and the issue was still there).

So given it's not an obvious Fuel system issue or a spark issue or even an electrical issue I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to check next .....

Any thoughts or comments would be most grateful as it's giving the absolute shits (or maybe I should just suck it up and live with it and forget about the remote start - which I am loath to do being an anal prick)...


Heeeeeeeeeelp! :stupid:

[Red CV8 R]

I have two ECU for my 04 Monaro, my tuners have swapped them around with no other changes that I'm aware of. Certainly no BCM or lock changes, I'm sure I would have been charged for that :yup:

[whitels1ss]

You can change the ECU without changing the BCM.

I have 2 of them for my car,

I had a good tune on my SS from before I fitted my 2300 blower that I kept

in case I was ever looking at removing / selling my blower

so when I fitted the blower I replaced it with one from a wreck for the blower tune.


Are you sure you do not have a BCM or security system fault?

[FrangaFry]

Howdy lads, so if I was just to replace the ECU, is there a need to 're join' or 're link' the BCM and lock system? The auto elec (and Justin from APS) were pretty adamant that they would need to be re linked. They also seemed to think that only Holden could do it .........? After chatting to Justin, I was left thinking that I could provide APS with a replacement ECU, they could download my current tune to it (on the bench), but I would then need to take it to Holden to get them to 're link' the new ECU to the rest of the electrical system? I might go visit the parts team @ Holden tomorrow and have a chat to the old timers there, perhaps they can give me some direction on this.

"Are you sure you do not have a BCM or security system fault?" ............. Honestly I am not sure of anything ........ How would I be able to tell. The Auto Elec could not find any faults with the scan tool, so no codes being thrown?

I have zero idea how to diagnose this issue ......... I was hoping the auto elec would be able to give me at least some direction to follow but he was as baffled as I was.

I am also wondering if something to do with the Alarm system could be causing the issue .....

Thanks as always folks.

[whitels1ss]

When I replaced mine for the blower setup

I just got my tuner mate to put a very safe generic tune into a second hand one in

& then I drove the car over to him on the other side of town where he did the full proper tune.

The car started first pop & it actually went okay.

[scotty82]

Hi FrangaFry,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Have you checked
/considered the cam and crank angle sensors?

I believe after a certain amount of rotations on a start with the cam position sensor faulty it then relies on the crank angle sensor for a position to then command spark. So this logic then sees a start taking longer.

I hope you get it sorted.

Cheers,
Scott

[whitels1ss]

Actually, from memory, I had to make sure that the ECU was not locked by another tuner
when it took it over to my tuner, I was lucky enough to be able to take 3 over to him to be sure that one was unlocked & clear to go.

I remember the first one was a no go when he plugged it in but the second was fine.

[Red CV8 R]

You shouldn't have to get Holden to "re-link" the ECU, neither tuner did that for my car and I needed to take my first ECU back to the original tuner to be unlocked and cleared to allow the next tune to be loaded. My second ECU was a brand new one from Holden (last new one in the country apparently), I don't know if that mattered either.

[FrangaFry]

Hi FrangaFry,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Have you checked
/considered the cam and crank angle sensors?

I believe after a certain amount of rotations on a start with the cam position sensor faulty it then relies on the crank angle sensor for a position to then command spark. So this logic then sees a start taking longer.

I hope you get it sorted.

Cheers,
Scott

Cheers Scott ......... hadn't considered this. Hmmmm.......... can of frik'n worms. Wouldn't a faulty crank angle sensor throw some sort of error/code that a scan tool would pickup?

Might be time to reach out to the Wizard and see what his thoughts are on this one ..... It's been a while since I have had a chat, so would be nice to touch base anyway I think.

Thanks lads, you are all legends.

[FrangaFry]

So, I'm off to see the Wizard ..........

Of all the folks that have laid hands on my wagon over the years (and there has been MANY), there is one bloke above all that I trust 150%, he's a legend and a top bloke and I rek'n if anyone can sort out my little gremlins it's gunna be the Wizard.

I'm actually a little excited once again (much to the ministers disgust) ......... gunna give my A4 some love with a new clutch pack and get that converter tightened up a little or maybe removed/replaced (see what his thoughts are on this) and hopefully get this start issue sorted (fingers crossed, as it's driving me mad).

Not in a huge hurry ............ buuuuut, we all know how these things go.

[FrangaFry]

Howdy all, some update to this and a question to pose to those who know FAR more than I ever will....

So, I've seen the Wizard, the magic staff has been waved and I have ticked off a few issues thanks to IJ (the man IS a legend!).

Tranny is refreshed/serviced ......... new clutch pack and converter has been out, serviced and tightened ......... apart from some wearing of the clutch pack the internals were is great nick (that is a testament to the talents of this man and the previous work he has done and the parts he has installed into this box)!

New/upgraded Walbro fuel pump .......... replaced, installed an re wired

New (solid) engine and tranny mounts ........... yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ...... this went well but they SUCK ARSE (Ian warned me but ............ they will be coming out shortly and OEMs going back in .... live and learn)

Engine service ........ oil/filter/plugs/leads/air pod etc etc

Brakes ......... flush and replaced fluid with new gear

Wags has since been to APS for a tickle to the tune and producing a healthy 356rwkw .........

Wags has also been back to Shockworks for some minor modifications .......... spring rates change and re valved all four corners (I went waaaaaaay to hard initially and the ride was just way too hard and 'twitchy') ... have landed somewhere between performance and comfort with a good amount adjustment left in it to 'play' with (feels much better).

Now for the question ............. I have been chasing a hard starting and stalling issue for the last 2 years and the 'hope' was that after all this effort, it would be resolved .... Bzzzzzzz NUP!

So I have been doing what we all do and that is trawling every bit of information I can about hard starting and stalling when braking ............

I have ruled out the tune as being the issue .......... also ruled out the ECU as being the issue .......... also ruled out fuel delivery as being the issue .........

Car goes like a cut cat, tranny shifts like it should, she sounds orgasmic under the right foot and drives round corners like a champ (lets not talk about the mounts though ........ that's next on the list) BUT this start/stall issue is doing my head in.

What I have finally come up with (it seems the only things left to consider?) is a possible faulty IAC valve (I have a genuine one on order and coming my way; But, this may only explain ilde and start issues but possibly not the stall under braking issues?). Alternatively a possible failing brake booster or leaking diaphragm?

Can I get your thoughts on this guys, as this is my last roll of the dice I rek'n. I just can't think of any other possibilities.

As always thanks for the feedback legends!

[BLACK 346]

Howdy all, some update to this and a question to pose to those who know FAR more than I ever will....

So, I've seen the Wizard, the magic staff has been waved and I have ticked off a few issues thanks to IJ (the man IS a legend!).

Tranny is refreshed/serviced ......... new clutch pack and converter has been out, serviced and tightened ......... apart from some wearing of the clutch pack the internals were is great nick (that is a testament to the talents of this man and the previous work he has done and the parts he has installed into this box)!

New/upgraded Walbro fuel pump .......... replaced, installed an re wired

New (solid) engine and tranny mounts ........... yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ...... this went well but they SUCK ARSE (Ian warned me but ............ they will be coming out shortly and OEMs going back in .... live and learn)

Engine service ........ oil/filter/plugs/leads/air pod etc etc

Brakes ......... flush and replaced fluid with new gear

Wags has since been to APS for a tickle to the tune and producing a healthy 356rwkw .........

Wags has also been back to Shockworks for some minor modifications .......... spring rates change and re valved all four corners (I went waaaaaaay to hard initially and the ride was just way too hard and 'twitchy') ... have landed somewhere between performance and comfort with a good amount adjustment left in it to 'play' with (feels much better).

Now for the question ............. I have been chasing a hard starting and stalling issue for the last 2 years and the 'hope' was that after all this effort, it would be resolved .... Bzzzzzzz NUP!

So I have been doing what we all do and that is trawling every bit of information I can about hard starting and stalling when braking ............

I have ruled out the tune as being the issue .......... also ruled out the ECU as being the issue .......... also ruled out fuel delivery as being the issue .........

Car goes like a cut cat, tranny shifts like it should, she sounds orgasmic under the right foot and drives round corners like a champ (lets not talk about the mounts though ........ that's next on the list) BUT this start/stall issue is doing my head in.

What I have finally come up with (it seems the only things left to consider?) is a possible faulty IAC valve (I have a genuine one on order and coming my way; But, this may only explain ilde and start issues but possibly not the stall under braking issues?). Alternatively a possible failing brake booster or leaking diaphragm?

Can I get your thoughts on this guys, as this is my last roll of the dice I rek'n. I just can't think of any other possibilities.

As always thanks for the feedback legends!

This might be way off the mark in your case, but when my Blown Calais started doing weird shit ie Stalling, occasional rough idle and a few other little things like cruise control dropping out it ended up being a fried engine bay wiring loom. Mine went into limp mode due to the ECU no longer being able to communicate effectively with the wireless Throttle body. Not sure if the earlier VT-VY cars even have a limp mode as they are a wired TB. Brad reckons the heat generated by the blowers are most likely the cause of accelerated deterioration of the wiring. You could literally snap the old loom like a dry twig, so it was well and truly cactus. Good news for you is apparently the looms for the LS1 are relatively simple to change compared to the later VE/VF :) Just a thought, and something for you to consider/investigate once you have exhausted all other avenues.

[whitels1ss]

This might be way off the mark in your case, but when my Blown Calais started doing weird shit ie Stalling, occasional rough idle and a few other little things like cruise control dropping out it ended up being a fried engine bay wiring loom. Mine went into limp mode due to the ECU no longer being able to communicate effectively with the wireless Throttle body. Not sure if the earlier VT-VY cars even have a limp mode as they are a wired TB. Brad reckons the heat generated by the blowers are most likely the cause of accelerated deterioration of the wiring. You could literally snap the old loom like a dry twig, so it was well and truly cactus. Good news for you is apparently the looms for the LS1 are relatively simple to change compared to the later VE/VF :) Just a thought, and something for you to consider/investigate once you have exhausted all other avenues.

Hey Rod, nice idea but your car was doing all sorts of random stuff at any time
and as I read it Carlton's car is sometimes hard to start & sometimes stalls when it's pulling up or idling,

I would seriously doubt it would be the same thing.

[whitels1ss]

Brad reckons the heat generated by the blowers are most likely the cause of accelerated deterioration of the wiring.

Hey Rod, have you noticed if your engine runs any hotter with the supercharger?

Mine doesn't seem to run any hotter when driven in a normal manner but I have heard of others that run much hotter,
one mate of mine will not even take his car on the road if the weather forecast is over about 32 degrees
& he has fitted an extra large radiator, custom shroud & fans trying to sort this issue.

[BLACK 346]

Hey Rod, have you noticed if your engine runs any hotter with the supercharger?

Mine doesn't seem to run any hotter when driven in a normal manner but I have heard of others that run much hotter,
one mate of mine will not even take his car on the road if the weather forecast is over about 32 degrees
& he has fitted an extra large radiator, custom shroud & fans trying to sort this issue.

Not really Ed, Coolant temps never seem to go over 97 and IAT maximum I have seen since fitting the Methanol Injection is around 12 above ambient, but usually around 10.

[BLACK 346]

Hey Rod, nice idea but your car was doing all sorts of random stuff at any time
and as I read it Carlton's car is sometimes hard to start & sometimes stalls when it's pulling up or idling,

I would seriously doubt it would be the same thing.

Yeah mine stalled once when at low revs going through road works, but it was most noticeable when going from drive to reverse or from drive into park.

[whitels1ss]

Not really Ed, Coolant temps never seem to go over 97 and IAT maximum I have seen since fitting the Methanol Injection is around 12 above ambient, but usually around 10.

Sounds good Rod. How much extra RWKW did you get on the dyno from the water/meth kit?

[FrangaFry]

Yeah mine stalled once when at low revs going through road works, but it was most noticeable when going from drive to reverse or from drive into park.

Hmmmm, this sounds very familiar :yup: ............ I get the same a fair bit as well (reverse to stop ......... stall) and yep Re: temps, my IAT's suck. I read the comment about driving in hot weather and I am also reluctant to drive the o'l girl when it gets into mid/high 30's ....

I've had to drive home a few times when it's hot outside (35+) with the AC off and windows down (sux in go home traffic from the city on the Monash in bumper to bumper ).... :cussing:

Luis did say that half my issue may due to the fact that I am running about 13psi and this kills the IAT ........ he's tuned it accordingly so not a problem but I do need to sort this at some point (i've spent waaaaaay toooooo much last few months, so better pull my head in). I have already removed the overdrive balancer and gone to a larger front pulley ages ago), but my issue may be with the rear gilmer (it was replaced at the end of last year as it had worn out - he thinks it may not be a 1 to 1 ratio, which has upped the boost - but the IAT and stall issues were present before it was changed) ..... it never ends huh....

Hmm methanol injection or interchiller ........... either ones gunna cause a divorce I think LOL.....

On a side note, I also had a clock spring failure (it never rains but pours) that caused my steering wheel to squeak like a MoFo (talk about SUPER bloody annoying, add this to the NVH from the solid mounts and I was hating driving her) so I and had to replace the air bag clock spring the other day (Doh........); But, while it was getting sorted I had the Tuff tranny mount pulled out and replaced with a new OEM jobbie .......... Ooooooh LORDY what a revelation :yahoo:

:driving: ...... god damn I enjoyed the drive home after that!

She now drives and sounds like OEM again (even WITH the solid engine mounts - which I have decided to leave in) - no more tractor grinding and the NVH is now almost Zero. She's a total pleasure to drive again (other than the stall and hard start issue LOL). I'm almost there ......... maybe..

Thanks lads, I love hearing for you guys!!!!

[BLACK 346]

Sounds good Rod. How much extra RWKW did you get on the dyno from the water/meth kit?

It didn't go on the dyno Ed.

[whitels1ss]

It didn't go on the dyno Ed.

Okay, I thought the system would have needed to be checked on the dyno?


How does it feel as in much more power?

[BLACK 346]

Okay, I thought the system would have needed to be checked on the dyno?


How does it feel as in much more power?

It was that long ago Ed I am not sure. Cannot recall noticing anything, but I don't drive it that hard so probably wouldn't notice. It is going in soon for Tru Trac fitment so may get it
dynoed then, will see how busy Brad is.

[whitels1ss]

It was that long ago Ed I am not sure. Cannot recall noticing anything, but I don't drive it that hard so probably wouldn't notice. It is going in soon for Tru Trac fitment so may get it
dynoed then, will see how busy Brad is.

My mate got his fitted with a progressive setup, it starts to spray at around 7psi of boost & goes up from there.

His works great! :goodjob:

[BLACK 346]

My mate got his fitted with a progressive setup, it starts to spray at around 7psi of boost & goes up from there.

His works great! :goodjob:

From memory mine starts around that boost level also, will quiz Brad when I see him next. Works great though, will blow the tyres off in First and Second and fry them in third and fourth lol. Pretty much drive it around the city locked in 3rd with the stall and it is like driving a one speed car :)

[whitels1ss]

From memory mine starts around that boost level also, will quiz Brad when I see him next. Works great though, will blow the tyres off in First and Second and fry them in third and fourth lol. Pretty much drive it around the city locked in 3rd with the stall and it is like driving a one speed car :)

Hey Rod, do you know which kit you have on there?

Is it a Snow Performance Stage 3 kit?

[BLACK 346]

Hey Rod, do you know which kit you have on there?

Is it a Snow Performance Stage 3 kit?

Yes Ed, it is.