Caterham/PRB/Elfin/Westfield owners

[Kirium]

Was just wondering if there are any former, current or hopeful future Caterham, PRB, Elfin, Westfield ect. owners on here.

I've been developing an increasingly strong interest in the purity of the Lotus Super 7 concept and was interested to hear from any owners and ex-owners on life with a Seven. I'm very interested to hear about building the cars and experiences had during building/registering/driving/racing.

Feel free to chime in with any comments.

:cheers:

[seldo]

Was just wondering if there are any former, current or hopeful future Caterham, PRB, Elfin, Westfield ect. owners on here.

I've been developing an increasingly strong interest in the purity of the Lotus Super 7 concept and was interested to hear from any owners and ex-owners on life with a Seven. I'm very interested to hear about building the cars and experiences had during building/registering/driving/racing.

Feel free to chime in with any comments.

:cheers:
It's been many many moons (not these :moon: ) but I built and raced very successfully a couple of Welsor clubmans. Long, long time ago though. I agree though, it's a great concept and a heap of fun - it's called power to weight ratio.

[IIV8II]

one of those, whether PRB, Westfield, Caterham etc is on my list of cars to own before I die

[seldo]

Just thinking about it a bit more and I guess the experience is very akin to that of riding a high-powered motor cycle with the main difference being that you can't fall off!!. You know - uncomfortable, exposed to all the elements, wind in your face, eyes watering, rain, dust, exhaust fumes, engine noise, being monstered by cars and trucks, a close-up view of other cars and truck's wheel nuts, harsh uncompromising ride so you dodge things like matches and cigarette-butts on the road, peering up at cars like MX5s towering above you, you don't steer , you just "think" it around corners, when you jump on the brakes you gotta keep your mouth closed in case your gizzards fly out your open mouth, and fun? FUN? You can't keep the grin off your face - far better than pretty much anything else I can think of. Wooohoooo! But only as weekend thing. If you had to drive one very day it would become a real chore, drive you bonkers. Ah yes, memories. Would I own one again? I'd have to think about that for about a nano-second... Stuff the practicality, bring it on!

[Kirium]

From a humble Caterham Classic through to the Superlight R500 (which allegedly accelerates faster from 70-90mph in 4th gear than the McLaren F1), I think every review I have read in evo and CAR has had nothing but praise for the Seven clones. "The most fun you can have with your clothes on" they said in a review on a Roadsport a few years back...

What was building a seven like seldo? I'm not sure wether I'd like to build one, or just order a turnkey just the way I'd like it. If it's anything like a giant meccano set, I'd be prone to skipping ahead a few steps... (Chassis, engine, gearbox, wheels... Woo Hoo, let's go!!) But I'd get a bit less satisfaction ordering a turnkey from the factory I think...

[Kirium]

Vauxhall Monaro:
0-30mph: 2.39mph
0-60mph: 5.73secs
0-100mph: 13.28secs
Reaction time: 0.31secs
100-0mph: 4.60secs
Overall: 18.19secs

BMW M3 CSL:
0-30mph: 1.91mph
0-60mph: 4.62secs
0-100mph: 10.82secs
Reaction time: 0.48secs
100-0mph: 3.95secs
Overall: 15.25secs

Ferrari Enzo:
0-30mph: 1.79mph
0-60mph: 3.52secs
0-100mph: 6.69secs
Reaction time: 0.21secs
100-0mph: 4.08secs
Overall: 10.98secs

Suzuki GSX-R 1000:
0-30mph: 1.12mph
0-60mph: 2.64secs
0-100mph: 5.03secs
Reaction time: 0.23secs
100-0mph: 5.63secs
Overall: 10.89secs

Caterham R500 Evolution:
0-30mph: 1.45mph
0-60mph: 3.21secs
0-100mph: 6.92secs
Reaction time: 0.21secs
100-0mph: 3.60secs
Overall: 10.73secs <--------------- BONKERS!!!

(Taken from a Pommie Mag)

[IIV8II]

And something like that with a Gen III stuffed in it is even better...

[seldo]

What was building a seven like seldo?

We actually built it from scratch - no kit or anything, so it was fair bit of work, although because they are so simple, it isn't really rocket-science. We started by fabricating a big chassis-table to build it on so we had a level, true platform on which to clamp pieces of the chassis before welding them. Then my mate who actually designed the cars, would say "go and cut me a 47mm length of 25mm tube and grind the end so that it butts up to this bit here" . So I would, and he'd weld that bit in while I cut the next bit and so on. Then we cut alloy sheet and riveted it to the chassis and made 'glass nose and guards etc. As I said though, fortunately they are so simple that it's not that hard. The cars that we built were of two different specifications. The first one had a 1293cc Cooper S based engine (well actually it was an MG Midget block with a Cooper S head, Weber etc), Midget close ratio box, and (don't laugh) an Austin A30 rear end (chosen for its 5.1 diff ratio and the availabilty of plenty of cheap alternative ratios) and we grafted on a set of rear discs with (from memory) Cortina discs and calipers I think. We made a coil-over rear suspension with trailing arms and panhard rod. Front suspension was again coil-over but was unique in that we decided to go for a beam front axle. Don't laugh. Lots of people did at the time until we hit the track and wiped them like dirty bum. The car was unbeatable and held the lap record at the time at most of the eastern state tracks. The beam axle was a bit special in that it had a rotatable sleeve in the middle which prevented the caster changes from one side being passed to the other side and the secret to the car's race winning performance (apart from my legendary skill and daring, of course :bow: ) was its fantastic braking performance which was provided in part by the beam axle which meant that there was no camber change under braking and kept the tyres' contact patch intact, and also of course it weighed bugger-all. It had Triumph Spitfire/Herald uprights which gave us adjustable camber dspite the beam-axle and fabricated leading-arms which enabled us to adjust caster and a panhard-rod again. And again Cortina Discs and calipers. It also handled like a dream although always suffered from understeer. The engine was pretty good for its day too. It was lovingly cobbled up by Mike who worked for Waggott engineering at the time and was again a bit controversial in the combination of bits and pieces but I think we had the stupendous power of 128fwhp on Waggott's dyno out of 1293 cc. (the category was for up to 1300cc) Then someone made an offer that was too good to refuse after it cleaned up the champioship and we built another similar car but a bit longer in the wheelbase (so I fitted better) and with a Datto 1200 engine which gave about 135fwhp and was lighter than the A series engine and was actually quite a good thing. I used to rev the bejassus out it - we used to say "rev it till it misses" which was about 8500 and it was unburstable - never blew the thing. It also cleaned up around the NSW and Vic tracks too but began to get some competition from the Corolla engined Farrels from Vic which wreer lighter again - we thought dangerously so. So there you have it. A bit long-winded, I'm sorry. :cheers:

[MalooR8]

I own a PRB clubman, Miraz who also frequents here occassionally brought his Caterham over from the UK with him.

Happy to help with anything you'd like to know about them.

We also have a local forum for likeminded nutters if your interested.

www.ozclubbies.com (http://www.ozclubbies.com)

[Swordie]

On cable television (the Discovery Channel) there is show called "A Race Car Is Born" every Saturday ay 12.30pm. The show goes for several weeks and usually gets repeated. It describes how to build a Westfield in the UK and then the host goes on to race the car in hill climbs, track days and circuit racing.

[Kirium]

Then my mate who actually designed the cars, would say "go and cut me a 47mm length of 25mm tube and grind the end so that it butts up to this bit here" . So I would, and he'd weld that bit in while I cut the next bit and so on. Seldo, that sounds like a real state of the art production workshop... :lol: I bet you learn a whole lot about the basic mechanics of cars like that... Great story. good read...

MalooR8, thanks for the link mate. Looking forward to having a good read thru there... How did you come about your PRB? Did you build it yourself? buy second-hand? how do you find the car?

[Kirium]

And something like that with a Gen III stuffed in it is even better...

I'm hunting for the issue of Motor that had a Clubman with a GENIII in it...

I think the heavy engine would upset the balance and purity of the car...

[MalooR8]

I bought mine second hand, its a good way to get into them. Most are used only as weekend toys and don't get much use. The Toyota 4age (16v and 20v) is almost bullet proof as well. Good ones also hold their value, a mate bought his PRB kept it for 2 years and sold it for $1k less than original purchase price (he's now got one of only 2 hyabusa powered road registered PRB's in Aus. 0-100km/h in around 3.7sec.).

Their an absolute ball of fun, cost nothing in upkeep and off the lights and on the track nothing will touch you. With 88kw's and on sticky R spec tyres in the sprint series I compete in the only cars in front of me are sorted open wheelers and other PRB's. The GT3's, M3's, Skylinesetc.... are normally a couple of seconds slower.

The GenIII clubman that was built in Victoria was a dog, the ones Elfin are looking at doing look far more interesting.

They are a fairly extreme car though and you have to alter your mindset a bit. I've no windscreen on it now (only a small aeroscreen fitted) and if you get caught out in the rain its helmet and rain-ex and bike wet weathers time. That said, I also think nothing of hopping in it and travelling a few hundred k's for a blat just for the fun of it, or wandering out into the garage in the morning and deciding I'll take the clubbie to the office instead of the Maloo.

[seldo]

[QUOTE=MalooR8]

The GenIII clubman that was built in Victoria was a dog, the ones Elfin are looking at doing look far more interesting. QUOTE]

Yeah. The Elfin sounds pretty scary with that power-to-weight ratio. Those things we made went like a dog shot in the arse with only 130fwhp pushing , I think it was only 390kg. Sounds too light, but I am sure that was what it was. The Farrells were 50kg lighter again! I reckon that with a 350hp LS1 up front it would certainly widen your eyes. :eyes:

[They are a fairly extreme car though QUOTE]
Yes, that could be a bit of an understatement...

[motomk]

Maybe instead of one of these

http://sprint.net.au/~fabiand/Nationals/images/IMG_0355.JPG

get one of these!!

http://sprint.net.au/~fabiand/Nationals/images/IMG_0328.JPG

ooops wrong one!!!!!!!;)

One of these!! Supercharged Cobra LS1 !!!! yummy!!!

http://sprint.net.au/~fabiand/Nationals/images/IMG_0343.JPG

motomk

[borry]

The Toyota 4age (16v and 20v) is almost bullet proof as well.


what about slotting in a 4agze ? same bulletproof donk, but coems factory supercharged, it hink this would go a lil harder, maybe even if you put an SR20DET into one, you can say to put an Ls1 in it, but the main thign about these cars is their light weight, by putting in a hard revving four, you retain that light weight racy feel about the car. i think you would ruin it by puttin an eight in one, just wouldnt be the same. and realistically, you could nowadays pull enough power out of a four to easily make this car a certain rocket, i know if ever owned one, and forbid one day i will, i woudl much rather a 350hp sr20 or ca18 in it then an ls1. no offence to anyoen here, but i think it would just make a better weekend warrior.

[seldo]

[QUOTE=borry]what about slotting in a 4agze ? same bulletproof donk, but coems factory supercharged, it hink this would go a lil harder, maybe even if you put an SR20DET into one, QUOTE]

Oh Yeah! An SR20DET! Now you're talkin" :burnout: :shock:

[Octane]

or you could try the Ariel Atom 2...

http://www.openwheelers.co.nz/

Honda i-VTEC 2L + Kerb weight: 520 kg = :)

Bit pricier than a clubman though

[borry]

Oh Yeah! An SR20DET! Now you're talkin" :burnout: :shock:


Giddy Up! :cool:

[borry]

gah, why not slot a 13B in one ? however a rotor on full song may not be too pleasing to the ears in a topless car... wouldnt wanna try explain why it wouldnt be too pleasing to the boys at PAC tho..

[Miraz]

The key thing with the clubman is keeping the weight down, especially at the front of the car. All these engines are great, but the increase in weight offsets the increase in power.
If the complete motor is over 100kg then it's likely to do really nasty things to the handling of car. Some of the best results are obtained by using motorcycle engines - a Hayabusa engine/transmission is under 80kg complete and can be made to produce absurd amounts of power with forced induction.
I use a Rover K-series in my Caterham which comes in around 75kg for the motor, the Toyota units are about 20-25kg heavier.
Ride quality can be surprisingly good as the low vehicle weight allows the use of relatively soft spring rates.

Miraz

[seldo]

The key thing with the clubman is keeping the weight down, especially at the front of the car. ...
If the complete motor is over 100kg then it's likely to do really nasty things to the handling of car ....
Ride quality can be surprisingly good as the low vehicle weight allows the use of relatively soft spring rates.

Miraz
One of the main things to be aware of is that because these cars are so light, the unsprung weight becomes a huge factor and, if you are not careful, the suspension starts to swing the car rather than the car swinging the suspension. So, aim for ultra low unsprung weight and choose wheels tyres and suspension components with an eye to weight.

[boxhead]

The supplier of my Cobra kit has expanded into the clubman car range, here is his website http://www.classicrevival.com.au/
Check it out .

[Buckshot]

I've also fallen in love wih these little things over the last couple of years and would also like to own one..ah well nice to dream.

I have some articles from Classic Car magazine on the PRBs, if anyone is interested I could scan them and put them online.



Cheers, Buck.

P.S - As for the guy that owns a Maloo AND a PRB - when did you get hold of my "What I'm buying when I win Lotto list" ?

[cheffy]

Ive had a little experience with Elfins. a mate used to be the Sa agent And Ive driven/setup quite a few over the years. Better built in my honest opion than a lotus elise.... I and I half built one before the elfin connection came along..

[ADV51]

http://www.skelta.com.au/Home.htm

This one will be up and going soon. Should scare them at Targa next year as well.

[SASLS1]

http://members.cox.net/kimini22/car/

A guy in the US has been designing and building a mini from scratch, with a Honda Prelude VTEC 4-cylinder mounted in the rear. I've been reading the site for about a year and half since I came across it, he updates his progess every couple of days/week. Very interesting. The car is about 75% done.

Have a read through his build dairy from the beginning, lots of pics and all the problem that he has incounted, and over come.

One of the best site I've come across.

[LS1 Cobra]

Front suspension was again coil-over but was unique in that we decided to go for a beam front axle. Don't laugh. Lots of people did at the time until we hit the track and wiped them like dirty bum. The car was unbeatable and held the lap record at the time at most of the eastern state tracks. The beam axle was a bit special in that it had a rotatable sleeve in the middle which prevented the caster changes from one side being passed to the other side and the secret to the car's race winning performance (apart from my legendary skill and daring, of course :bow: ) was its fantastic braking performance which was provided in part by the beam axle which meant that there was no camber change under braking and kept the tyres' contact patch intact, and also of course it weighed bugger-all.

Quite a lot of the Clubmans and specials in the 50's and 60's used to run beam axles. A popular mod was a split beam where the beam axle was cut in half and a pivoted off the cut ends. An early attempt at making an independent front end. A friend of mine is restoring one of these early club racers and it's interesting to have a look at the ideas and technology they had back then. His one runs a split beam.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/awlodge/HRS1.jpg

I find historic race cars fascinating as this is where the technology in the car you drive today comes from. It's cool to see the ideas that worked and those that didn't.

Cheers

Mike

[seldo]

Quite a lot of the Clubmans and specials in the 50's and 60's used to run beam axles. A popular mod was a split beam where the beam axle was cut in half and a pivoted off the cut ends. An early attempt at making an independent front end. A friend of mine is restoring one of these early club racers and it's interesting to have a look at the ideas and technology they had back then. His one runs a split beam.



I find historic race cars fascinating as this is where the technology in the car you drive today comes from. It's cool to see the ideas that worked and those that didn't.

Cheers

Mike

A lot of these things evolved from cheap pre-war chassis that had beam front axles such as the Austin 7 shown. They just literally cut them in half and fashioned a pivot at the inner end .
The previous car that we built prior to mine had fabricated split front axles that overlapped each other and pivoted at the opposite side chassis rail. Worked pretty well too with limited camber change due to the long axles/lower-control-arms, although it did have some roll-centre problems, but we caused some consternation (because, to those not understanding the rationale, it seemed a backward step) by developing that into the beam-axle car that was just about invincible. Its secret was that it maintained full tyre contact under both braking and cornering with little camber or caster change caused by body roll or the opposite wheel's bump deflection, and yet we still had individually adjustable camber and caster. It was/is very cunning. We could have developed it much further with higher spec materials (weight) instead of the ( I'm embarrssed to admit it now) steam pipe that we used, but didn't really need to as the car was nearly unbeatable. As you'd expect, due to unsprung weight issues, it was not too flash on bumpy stuff, but most tracks we raced on were pretty good in that regard , so why worry?
Cheers
Dave (seldo)