Best value for $5000 LS1 upgrades???

[CarlFST60L]

Hi all,

I have a VY SV8, LS1, 6 speed manual phantom black, brakes (DBA 5040, 4050), SS kit, 19’ rims, Ventus K104’s, and now its time to add some ponies.

I have contact Silverwater Automotive services (SAS) and they have quoted me on 220kwrw (300Kw @ the fly) for around $5300 (Exhaust $3500, cold air + pluming $600, MAFLESS tune $1200). Just want to know if any one has any recommendations, ideas, do’s/dont’s etc for input for my 5000 odd dollar investment (no forced induction or engine internals for now)…

If you havn't seen this its worth a look!
http://www.chipmaster.com.au/Project%20Monaro.htm

(about to be) WORKEDSV8

[BlueSS]

Mate being in Sydney your best bet would be to call Sams Performance (Forum Sponser). To me $5300 for 220rwkw seems way over the top. You would proberbly get close to that if not more with just a cat back system and an edit which you could do for less than half that amount.

[shaunv8]

$3500 for an exhaust, youre joking surely. Im no genius in this field bit I think paying that is ridiculous.Cheers shaun

[FatBoy]

When the LS1's were pretty much brand new i bought what was then the "ducks guts" exhaust system (HPC coated Pacies etc) and it cost just over two grand. At $3500 it would want to be gold plated !! :eek:

Cheers,
Paul...

[Beej]

Yep - way too much $$$ there mate! See Greg @ Sureflo (forum sponsor) and you will get a proven, quality, drone-less exhaust system for a heap less than $3500. Then go and see Sam or Dick for a MAFless tune; while you are at it ask them to cut and plumb a second hole in your existing cold air intake (the VY is pretty good to start off with), and fit a decent TB pipe. Make sure you have 98 RON fuel in the tank before you take the car in, and you should be looking at anywhere from 220-235rwkw for a VY M6 with that set-up. I would be thinking about a TOTAL cost of more like $3500-ish for that package, with a bit of variance depending on materials and look you choose for your exhaust.

Cheers,

Beej

[markone2]

I believe that $3500 spent on any exhaust system for a bolt on Gen111 is
a waste of good cold hard cash that could be applied to other mods..eg Diff change...and more!
Forget Dyno numbers for one minute and look at real time results, of 2 bolt-on 12 second cars 1 has Pacemakers and Redback twin system ( cost aprox $1200 ) , the other has factory manifold and 2nd hand HSV cat back system...( cost $00.00 )

[SSbaby]

If you don't plan on holding onto your car for long you might want to specify mild steel for your exhaust. The sound would still be music to the ears but at half the cost of a stainless steel system.

[RIDE:42]

tell um there dreamin

[Bandit]

mate,

i do agree that $3500 is way too much for exhaust...

if you want a good a exhaust....with a good sound...and top notch...service...

Sureflo Exhaust -greg is a sponsor here....I have had a dual 2 1/2inch system put in and im WAS very happy with it...

in terms of edit many ppl here a split between Sam's performance and Dicks electronics....

i haven't had any work done on that front, but frm seeing dick's work on an automobile recently this year i was highly impressed with his proffesionalism....so that is up to you...

but for an exhaust Sureflo is probably a good start....their website details everything clearly aswell...

good luck

[lucas]

IMO you should be including a shorter diff in your list. I spent about that much cash at Sam's for about that much stuff (maybe $500 to $1000 less) and the car still did not blow me away.

Spent anther grand and a bit on the shorter diff, and it _felt_ as much of an improvement as all the other work that was done. Just do it :)

[SSbaby]

The best person to speak to (perhaps PM) is motomk. He's been to Sureflow and Sams as recently as 2 weeks ago. I'm sure his advice/opinion would be helpful.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy spending $5K for those mods when I can get a quality job done for around $3K.

Whether its Sams or Dicks you take it to, you can be sure the job will be to your satisfaction. We are blessed in the LS1 community to have many good tuners (in each state).
:cheers:

[IIV8II]

Goddamn - three and a half grand for drainpipes and a pair of tin boxes with baffles in them....???

[VooDoo]

What ive spent

$600 Pacemaker Try=Y's
$750 Twin 2.5" Zorst with X pipe, opened up Cats, 2 mufflers and Resonator
$1000 3.73 gears in Diff
$165 GTS Maf Pipe
$250 Colour coded Engine covers.
$400 Suspension Work (HSV front struts, Bilstein rears)
$1200 Mafless Edit

Result: 241rwkw

Should give you a good idea what to do

[VXEXEC350]

I got MCAI, Redline Airforce (same as K&N) Filter, GTS MAF Pipe and fittings, HPC Coated Pacemaker 4into 1s, Full custom 2.5" stainless twin system (but original Cats are retained albeit Modded), LS1 Edit (retaining MAF) yielding 228RWKW for 3500 Dollars.
I'd say keep shopping.
Pete

[MNR-0]

You have a good budget to mod with. This is what I would do...

3.73 diff gears - $1000
3000 stall converter (A4 only) $1000
LS1Edit $1000
dual stainless cat-back exhaust $900
headers + opened up cats $700
brake pads $300
VYII MAF pipe $200
CAI hole $60
BMC Air filter $170

If you have a manual then you will have some change left over for a stereo speaker upgrade

[ROGUE]

your anus is gonna look like a doughnut after you finish paying him for those mods mate....

take note from what other people have spent..... :cool:

[F6Mauz]

Yep - way too much $$$ there mate! See Greg @ Sureflo (forum sponsor) and you will get a proven, quality, drone-less exhaust system for a heap less than $3500.

I thought their stanless systems were in this price range? :confused:

[Beej]

I thought their stanless systems were in this price range? :confused:

They weren't the last time I asked!! Don't want to speak for Greg/Sureflo really, and the best thing for anyone who is looking for a system would be to call him and get his current prices first hand. When I did my exhaust all prices including for stainless ended up a LOT less than $3500! In fact I spent less than that for full exhaust, HPC coated extractors, opened cats, a MCAI, MAF-TB pipe and LS1 edit/tune at Sams! :)

Cheers,

Beej

[SV8VY]

You have a good budget to mod with. This is what I would do...

3.73 diff gears - $1000
3000 stall converter (A4 only) $1000
LS1Edit $1000
dual stainless cat-back exhaust $900
headers + opened up cats $700
brake pads $300
VYII MAF pipe $200
CAI hole $60
BMC Air filter $170

If you have a manual then you will have some change left over for a stereo speaker upgradeThis looks good to me but I like the 3.9.1 gears :D

[KeenGolfer]

I thought their stanless systems were in this price range? :confused:
Depends what you get, normal systems are relatively cheap, but go a dual 3" + headers and it will cost you clost to that (including 3" cats).

[naff]

Mate of mine just had his VY SS ute done with, short shifter, full stainless exhaust and tune(MAFless i think) and paid around $3500 for it.

[Drizzt]

Geez, $3500 for an exhaust? I spent $3500 and I got a full exhaust from back to front, pod filter and sealed box for it, new plugs and leads, thermostat mod and edit.

I'd rather put anything left over fomr $5300 into diff gears and a diff centre (KAAZ) :D


Drizzt

[CarlFST60L]

Thanks for all your input!!

Now i have $2000 to spend somewhere else :D

Two more questions...

1. The suspension isnt all what i expected under high loading... The main issue that i am haveing is, when i am on the limit, just when the suspension is getting all the load, as i turn in the back end moves around, then, settles (even when power isnt down). It feels very unsettleing. I want to do something to stiffen the car up so it stays flater and dosnt move around so much especially in the rear...

2. dosn't the manual HSV GTS run a 3.9:1 diff? as a couple of you have said 3.7:1 is the go?

Thanks in advance for your time...

[Drizzt]

Thanks for all your input!!

Now i have $2000 to spend somewhere else :D

And a good thing too. :D


1. The suspension isnt all what i expected under high loading... The main issue that i am haveing is, when i am on the limit, just when the suspension is getting all the load, as i turn in the back end moves around, then, settles (even when power isnt down). It feels very unsettleing. I want to do something to stiffen the car up so it stays flater and dosnt move around so much especially in the rear...

That $2000 you saved, you can put toward a half decent suspension package . I've just had Koni adjustables put in at all for corners with a set of Peders Super Lows. The result, doesn't quite corner like it's on rails but very damn close to it :D It's dropped the car an inch lower all round, firmed up the ride a bit so that the car actually feels nice to drive.


2. dosn't the manual HSV GTS run a 3.9:1 diff? as a couple of you have said 3.7:1 is the go?

Yes it does. I believe the 3.7:1 diff ratio was offered in case you had an auto. As yours is a M6, I'd go with 3.9 gears as I'm planning the same.


Drizzt

Thanks in advance for your time...[/QUOTE]

[RedHotSS]

1. ... want to do something to stiffen the car up so it stays flater and dosnt move around so much especially in the rear...


I have Koni sports on the front (adjustable - on full hard at present), Koni touring rear (internally adjustable). Also lower springs were fitted but the car not slammed. I wanted better handling, not scraping my way around Melbourne. For flatter cornering, a swaybar was fitted on the front. No swaybar on the rear as they can make the rear end a bit twitchy. I was considering a strut brace to tighten up the front further still but the advice I recieved was to keep my money for other mods (Starr Performance - an honest bunch of guys :) )

I am very happy with the whole package. It handles like a dream through the corners and the ride is firmer but not harsh.

[Red CV8 R]

I am been doing the same investigations as you and in Sydney it seems you are paying more for the same stuff as other states unfourtunately. I have found the following amounts get you the goodies in Sydney.

Full exhaust systems:

$1700 - $2000 Add around $500 for stainless and $300 for HPC coating of the headers

(I looked at DF off the shelf items and custom from Forum sponsors and recommendations)

Ls1 edit Tunes

Maf tunes: around $900

Mafless: around $1500

Maf pipes and CAI

Maf pipes: $140 - $220

CAI: $30 - $500

(CAI ranged from a two hole Monaro job to pod setups)

Diff

I have got quotes from $1200 to $1500 for a change to either 3.7s or 3.9s for my M6.

Well that has been my experince so far. I must add I get Perth Street car mag and they seem to have some great deals over there. I saw a package with full Defillipo exhaust, ls1 edit tune (mafless? I dont know) and cai for $3000, or another place has the same minus the Cai but adding in a diff ratio change for $3800. All seems like great value to me.

[motomk]

I am been doing the same investigations as you and in Sydney it seems you are paying more for the same stuff as other states unfourtunately. I have found the following amounts get you the goodies in Sydney.

Full exhaust systems:

$1700 - $2000 Add around $500 for stainless and $300 for HPC coating of the headers

(I looked at DF off the shelf items and custom from Forum sponsors and recommendations)

Ls1 edit Tunes

Maf tunes: around $900

Mafless: around $1500

Maf pipes and CAI

Maf pipes: $140 - $220

CAI: $30 - $500

(CAI ranged from a two hole Monaro job to pod setups)

Diff

I have got quotes from $1200 to $1500 for a change to either 3.7s or 3.9s for my M6.

Well that has been my experince so far. I must add I get Perth Street car mag and they seem to have some great deals over there. I saw a package with full Defillipo exhaust, ls1 edit tune (mafless? I dont know) and cai for $3000, or another place has the same minus the Cai but adding in a diff ratio change for $3800. All seems like great value to me.


I think you will find those bottom two mentioned places are HQ's!! and Delco's!!! I am guessing!! (ie Sponsors Streetquick and Chipmaster) I also get that magazine as it is a lot of magazine for the money!
I concur with all those prices there....I went a bit OTT and got a Custom Sureflo job so my exhaust was a little dearer than what is mentioned but well worth it to me!!!

motomk

[Red CV8 R]

Yep Streetquick performance (Howquick) and Chipmaster (Delco) where the two places I mentioned. Perth Street car is a fantastic magazine, pretty V8 orientated but great features on other types of cars and products in the street scene. Awesome stuff! As you say alot of Magazine for your money!

Delcos column is a highlight to!

[falcon coupe]

For anyone in eastern Melbourne, i was at Hallam Performance on saturday, the owner Andrew has his own ss on the dyno showing 224rwkw, i asked him what mods it had, he said :full exhaust, air filter and remap" the price on the exhaust was around $1500.00.

[IH8WRX]

I'm a big believer in changing the diff ratio as one of your first, if not your first modification. I did all the usual stuff like exhaust and headers etc etc fisrt and whilst they did a difference yes it really wasn't until I put the 3.91's in and then it hauled!

Greg's headers and exhaust systems are great. Not only do you get the good old 304 EFI sound but none of the drone or noise in the cabin.

Get you diff done first, followed by headers and exhaust system with a MAFless tune with new MAF pipe and better CIA and you will be happy. The standard TB is a good item to, and worth getting it machined out.

[Drizzt]

For anyone in eastern Melbourne, i was at Hallam Performance on saturday, the owner Andrew has his own ss on the dyno showing 224rwkw, i asked him what mods it had, he said :full exhaust, air filter and remap" the price on the exhaust was around $1500.00.

I looked at them initially but decided to settle with G&D as I'd not seen any results out of them before.


Drizzt

[CarlFST60L]

I am from around eastern creek area, where is the best place to go for a 3.9:1 diff upgrade?

Also, Who do i put a pic of my car next to my name?

[SS Enforcer]

I am from around eastern creek area, where is the best place to go for a 3.9:1 diff upgrade?



I would get diff and edit done at same time mate, as they have to adjust the speedo after diff change .

I would get the exhaust done first then book it into Sams to do the rest including maf pipe / intake.

You don't want to end up in a situation where you get a edit then do another mod to your car which then should be retuned.

cheers

[MAFMAN]

Bullshit - I paid nearly that much from Greg for a stainless system

[falcon coupe]

Nice day for some mining Mafman ? :rolleyes:

[cosmo vyss]

where did you get these prices??? i have been quoted froma sponsor

exhaust cat back mild steel 750.00
headers/extractors 1450.00
mafless tune 1700.00
diff to 3.9 1300.00.

i would say you have lucked in, or i have just been given al crapo prices.

jb











What ive spent

$600 Pacemaker Try=Y's
$750 Twin 2.5" Zorst with X pipe, opened up Cats, 2 mufflers and Resonator
$1000 3.73 gears in Diff
$165 GTS Maf Pipe
$250 Colour coded Engine covers.
$400 Suspension Work (HSV front struts, Bilstein rears)
$1200 Mafless Edit

Result: 241rwkw

Should give you a good idea what to do

[markone2]

where did you get these prices??? i have been quoted froma sponsor

exhaust cat back mild steel 750.00
headers/extractors 1450.00
mafless tune 1700.00
diff to 3.9 1300.00.

i would say you have lucked in, or i have just been given al crapo prices.

jb


Some much needed research may be required for the continued sanity of your your wallet :) .........

[VooDoo]

Ive said it before, Drive to Qld, take your car to Mark @ PT, spend a day at the casino, on the piss, take out a few strippers etc. Drive Home.

Even with all that your going to be in front. For some reason QLD is a lot cheaper and Mark gets very good results.

$1700 for a Mafless edit... 2 yrs ago maybe. Mine got me 241rwkw so whats the extra $500 for? My prices quotes is what i actually paid not for some imaginary quote.

[Tre-Cool]

I'd say your being dupped, I know the cost of Most pacemaker extractors is around the 550-650$ mark. Maybe 2 hrs for removal and fitting. even at say $100 an hour for labour that should still be 750-850 fitted.

[CarlFST60L]

Well, i have done all the mod's that i set out to do this year...

Cost $4600 for 3.9, HM try y extractors, Mafless edit, 2.5' cat back red back system... Car ran 106mph at 13.4, theres plenty more in there, as i only got 2 runs:

1. 60 foot 2.35 and 13.4 @ 106mph
2. 60 foot 2.008 and 13.5 @ 105.somthing mph (MISSED THIRD BIG TIME!!!)

If i can get my first run 60 foota on the second i should run 13.1 @ >106mph :D

Got lowered with king springs all rount $450 fitted, strut brace $170 fitted for free with springs

got brakes DBA5040 front two peice (track spec) and DBA4040 (club spec) rear for $1400 fitted with super dot 4 with over 330 degree boiling point... Been using for a couple of months, WOW, the stockers really are nothing compared to these!!! No fade, the peddle always feels the same, bites hard, stops hard, good feel all round

Only thing left is heads and cam, and leather interior :D

[Mongy]

Well, i have done all the mod's that i set out to do this year...

Cost $4600 for 3.9, HM try y extractors, Mafless edit, 2.5' cat back red back system... Car ran 106mph at 13.4, theres plenty more in there, as i only got 2 runs:

1. 60 foot 2.35 and 13.4 @ 106mph
2. 60 foot 2.008 and 13.5 @ 105.somthing mph (MISSED THIRD BIG TIME!!!)

If i can get my first run 60 foota on the second i should run 13.1 @ >106mph :D

Got lowered with king springs all rount $450 fitted, strut brace $170 fitted for free with springs

got brakes DBA5040 front two peice (track spec) and DBA4040 (club spec) rear for $1400 fitted with super dot 4 with over 330 degree boiling point... Been using for a couple of months, WOW, the stockers really are nothing compared to these!!! No fade, the peddle always feels the same, bites hard, stops hard, good feel all round

Only thing left is heads and cam, and leather interior :D
Always nice to hear a happy result. ;) Your next problem will be the fact the 12's are only a whisker away :lol: That'll give you something to keep yourself occupied

[CarlFST60L]

Your next problem will be the fact the 12's are only a whisker away

Shut up :mad: its hard enough to keep it off my mind!!! :D

That cam package is looking mighty tempting... Although, i am going to need some new techniques to get the wife to want a 12sec LS1... She thinks its quick enough... After Xmas i might be in with a chance at getting the go ahead...

[DAROC]

I have 220 rwkw with just full exhaust and filter,and it did cost me half as much..Sounds a tad high for average gain.Ring a few shops smaller the better (as they want your business) and they can do exactly what the bigger shops do for a fraction of the price.....

[SV8VY]

I have 220 rwkw with just full exhaust and filter,and it did cost me half as much..Sounds a tad high for average gain.Ring a few shops smaller the better (as they want your business) and they can do exactly what the bigger shops do for a fraction of the price.....
Full exhaust and filter will only get you 200 at best....sorry dude but I find that hard to believe :hmmm: You will need an edit to get close to the 220 with the 2 mods you have.You don't mention if you have a bigger maf pipe or bigger throttle body and a better cold air set up.

[Drizzt]

I have 220 rwkw with just full exhaust and filter,and it did cost me half as much..Sounds a tad high for average gain.Ring a few shops smaller the better (as they want your business) and they can do exactly what the bigger shops do for a fraction of the price.....

And where did you get work done? Sounds like a happy dyno more than anything.

[Beej]

I have 220 rwkw with just full exhaust and filter,and it did cost me half as much..Sounds a tad high for average gain.Ring a few shops smaller the better (as they want your business) and they can do exactly what the bigger shops do for a fraction of the price.....

He he - had it down the 1/4 and shown an ET and MPH to back that dyno figure up? To give you an idea my car is an M6 with 220rwkw - but similar work to Workedvysv8 - and I run low 13s (13.21 PB so far) and 107mph.

As others have said - there is no doubt that a bit of CAI work/filter plus a good exhaust does produce good gains - no doubt - my car dyno'd at 185-200rwkw with those mods before a proper tune was done. I guess it may be possible to get 220rwkw without edit if the car is a bit of a "freak" - but the dyno graphs I have seen for cars like this usually have a "last gasp" type power peak rather than a good solid post-tune type graph with a nice fat mid-range as well as the peak. Ie - even if your dyno figure is accurate there would still be an impressive gain in performance and driveability to be had from a good tune - whatever the dyno says :D

Cheers,

Beej

[DJ_LG]

Hi all,

I have a VY SV8, LS1, 6 speed manual phantom black, brakes (DBA 5040, 4050), SS kit, 19’ rims, Ventus K104’s, and now its time to add some ponies.

I have contact Silverwater Automotive services (SAS) and they have quoted me on 220kwrw (300Kw @ the fly) for around $5300 (Exhaust $3500, cold air + pluming $600, MAFLESS tune $1200). Just want to know if any one has any recommendations, ideas, do’s/dont’s etc for input for my 5000 odd dollar investment (no forced induction or engine internals for now)…

If you havn't seen this its worth a look!
http://www.chipmaster.com.au/Project%20Monaro.htm

(about to be) WORKEDSV8
I also contacted Silverwater Automotive today before I read this thread and got quoted the same price. The guy said, "The thing with the $3500 exhaust :eek: is that its a full custom stainless steel job which would last about 10 years." He also said, "Off the shelf exhaust systems sound too tinny and a custom exhaust doesn't."
I think $600 for CAI is a bit much. PM Boonta LS1 about his CAI.
Anyone got anything to add to that? Does a Redback system sound tinny?

[markone2]

I also contacted Silverwater Automotive today before I read this thread and got quoted the same price. The guy said, "The thing with the $3500 exhaust :eek: is that its a full custom stainless steel job which would last about 10 years." He also said, "Off the shelf exhaust systems sound too tinny and a custom exhaust doesn't."
I think $600 for CAI is a bit much. PM Boonta LS1 about his CAI.
Anyone got anything to add to that? Does a Redback system sound tinny?

Not as tinny as the sound of your wallet after lining some-ones pockets with $3500 for an exhaust system :eek:
10 years or not, in the real world they make no more power than an off the shelf $600 redback system on an unopened Gen111...as for there alleged *tinny sound*..you be the judge :) ..here is a Redback twin 2&1/2 inch system in full flight

http://www.grunter.com.au/files/marksv1247.mpg

[DJ_LG]

I forgot to add that he also said that "LS1 edit is not tuned in real time and involves a bit off guess work." He said that he could tune it in real time and said that it would be better than LS1 edit.
What the?

[markone2]

I forgot to add that he also said that "LS1 edit is not tuned in real time and involves a bit off guess work." He said that he could tune it in real time and said that it would be better than LS1 edit.
What the?


And his time slips and Dyno sheets are availible for all to see :lol:..I can think of several people down your neck of the woods who would happily put up a few grand to see this gent put up or shut-up at WSID.....

[Drizzt]

I forgot to add that he also said that "LS1 edit is not tuned in real time and involves a bit off guess work." He said that he could tune it in real time and said that it would be better than LS1 edit.
What the?

Correct. Though most competant tuners have already done the guess work and know what works and what doesn't. I know when mine was edited, after the so called guess work they ran the car up with EFI Live real time and extrapolated some corrections over to LS1Edit.


Drizzt

[DJ_LG]

Yeah this guy sounded like a bit of a stooge. My jaw nearly hit the floor when he said how much it was. Then when he said that LS1 edit was no good I nearly laughed.

[Drizzt]

Yeah this guy sounded like a bit of a stooge. My jaw nearly hit the floor when he said how much it was. Then when he said that LS1 edit was no good I nearly laughed.

Just to make you aware, Aalthough LS1edit is probably the most widely used tuning software for the LS1 today, it isn't the only one available. I believe D|ck's uses his own tuning tools as well as Delco (either to confirm) and SAS tunes directly to the PCM's code. Horses for courses.


Drizzt

[MNR-0]

There is no substitute for real-time road tuning. It just costs $$$ to pay someone to do it. It will result in a better tune, but is it worth the cost? I tune my own car and have proven results. But I would have been up sh!t creek without a baseline Edit first.

As for exhaust, my full custom jobbie cost me $2200 and is stainless. A real sleeper (not appealing to everyone) but does the job nicely.

[SV8VY]

And his time slips and Dyno sheets are availible for all to see :lol:..I can think of several people down your neck of the woods who would happily put up a few grand to see this gent put up or shut-up at WSID.....Put me down for 2k please :lol: :D

[markone2]

There is no substitute for real-time road tuning. It just costs $$$ to pay someone to do it. It will result in a better tune, but is it worth the cost? I tune my own car and have proven results. But I would have been up sh!t creek without a baseline Edit first.

.


Carefull here mr monaro :) ..How's that 12 looking ;)

[CarlFST60L]

The exhuast on my car sounds phat! Sounds like a V8 supercar :cool: But, this is only because i removed the rear muffler all together.

As for what i paid for my mod's and the gain... If you think its not work it, its because you havnt been in a properly edited LS1! If your thinking of doing it, stop thinking about it and go do it!

I took a guy from work for a drive yesterday arvo, he is still over the moon this morning... Its funny how their view changes AFTER they have been in it...

Overall, i couldnt recommend it more! there should be no LS1 left unedited!!!

[Mongy]

Full exhaust and filter will only get you 200 at best....sorry dude but I find that hard to believe :hmmm: You will need an edit to get close to the 220 with the 2 mods you have.You don't mention if you have a bigger maf pipe or bigger throttle body and a better cold air set up.
In Daroc's defense there are some freak motors out there. When I was last at Powertorque Mark was telling me about one that came in and turned 200rwkw dead stock. He said if he hadn't seen it with his own eyes he probably would not have believed it. I have seen threads where a guy went 210rwkw standard in Sydney. It would be nice if they were all that high and there was some consistency in it. It seems that most of the VYII's all turn about the same stock so Holden is getting better at what it does, or should I say GM are with the engines. If you work out what workedvysv8 paid for his modifications it is about right for quality work in Sydney.

[CarlFST60L]

I am the guy in syd that ran 210Kwrw stock, on two dyno's a phew months apart :D One dyno being @ Sam's Performance

But i can tell you now, the 240Kwrw and 800Nmrw torque that it has now is a massive diffrence... the AVERAGE power was 266hprw stock to 313hprw after mod's...

3.9's make a big diffrence to...

[Mongy]

I am the guy in syd that ran 210Kwrw stock, on two dyno's a phew months apart :D One dyno being @ Sam's Performance

But i can tell you now, the 240Kwrw and 800Nmrw torque that it has now is a massive diffrence... the AVERAGE power was 266hprw stock to 313hprw after mod's...

3.9's make a big diffrence to...
AH HA, so you were the culprit :lol: As I have said in past threads though, peak power is only a very small part of the story. Very few of us run around at the revs that produce peak power. It is what happens in between that count the most. Your 210 might have been very sad in the midrange and now it would have a nice fat midrange. It is a pity you can't post up a before and after dyno graph. A lot of guys say "you have not made much of an increase" but you really have to drive a car before the edit and then after to appreciate just how much difference it makes. It is hard to describe that difference to somebody that has not done it. 240rwkw and 800 torque are good figures, and with 3.9's it would be a hoot to drive that is for sure. Oh, and by the way, 240 kilowatt is 321 horsepower, not 313 :D

[CarlFST60L]

You right about the peak power.... The good thing is i was refering to the average power from 100Km/h to 200km/h :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Sid447]

Someone mentioned,

in part of the thread that un-edited cars won't make good power.
You can't make a blanket statement. There are always lots of reasons why power varies; dyno standardization is just a word at the moment.
Correction factor is also a moot point.
And the same type of engines will always be different.

This is an example of a 180,000kms-plus, M-E spec (Lumina SS A4 ) on 3.91:1 FD, that has the following fitted:

Pacemaker 1-5/8" Tri-Y's
Genie twin s/s 2.5" system.
GTS maf-pipe.
SS-Inductions CAI (yes!)
& K&N filter.

[This car, like all VX-Series-1 M-E cars, has no cats and no O2 sensors].

...On a DTS dyno with the front doors open to the natural environment, ....hot! (as opposed to sealed and air-conditioned)
........this car made 296.7rwhp (@ a surprisingly high 6300rpm)
There's not much wrong with the way it makes power either:-

3000rpm........155rwhp
3500.............180
4000.............212
4500.............243
5000.............271
5500.............285
6000.............294

[Correction factor adjusted to +16C and 1014mb].

The PCM is original, and totally untouched. I can vouch for this as I know the car and it's history. It was still on a set of Beru sparkplugs that were fitted 80,000kms previously and not touched.

Not only had the car "adjusted" to the better exhaust system and different intake, but it was still running rich:
AFR's dropped from an intial 12:1 @ 2750rpm ...to 10.8:1 by 5250rpm and stayed as a flat line thereafter.

And I wouldn't have believed it ..and neither do I understand it fully either.

[Mongy]

Hmm, for an unedited car they are pretty healthy figures, nobody would be unhappy with that. :eek: I certainly wouldn't be. And the AFR's, it's running as rich as hell. Let's face it, with what it has had done, and the AFR's, it should be making a lot less than that. Another one of those freaks. That is the thing about these LS1's, they are so unpredictable. It is like a lottery when you pick up your new car - will it go or won't it, whilst keeping your fingers crossed as you drive out of the dealership :lol: . At least with a second hand one you can drive it and try it out first, and if it does not live up to your expectation just move on and try another one. Even though they are getting better with the VYII model I have seen a VYIISS ute the same as mine go on a dyno and it turned 147rwkw. I can tell you, the bloke was NOT happy, I heard him muttering uncomplimentary things about Holden, and I don't blame him. If mine was that low I would want some answers as to why. A good VS 5ltr makes around that figure. But, if I was the guy in Sid447's post I would be absolutely jumping for joy and thanking my lucky stars, not having to pay for an edit and having similar power ;) .

[Delco]

Hmm, for an unedited car they are pretty healthy figures, nobody would be unhappy with that. :eek: I certainly wouldn't be. And the AFR's, it's running as rich as hell. Let's face it, with what it has had done, and the AFR's, it should be making a lot less than that. Another one of those freaks. That is the thing about these LS1's, they are so unpredictable. It is like a lottery when you pick up your new car - will it go or won't it, whilst keeping your fingers crossed as you drive out of the dealership :lol: . At least with a second hand one you can drive it and try it out first, and if it does not live up to your expectation just move on and try another one. Even though they are getting better with the VYII model I have seen a VYIISS ute the same as mine go on a dyno and it turned 147rwkw. I can tell you, the bloke was NOT happy, I heard him muttering uncomplimentary things about Holden, and I don't blame him. If mine was that low I would want some answers as to why. A good VS 5ltr makes around that figure. But, if I was the guy in Sid447's post I would be absolutely jumping for joy and thanking my lucky stars, not having to pay for an edit and having similar power ;) .


AFR's dont tell the story though , only small gains are had by leaning it out.

Yes there are good and bad engines , sounds like a good one or the temp correction was kicking in.

Only real way to know is to compare it to a good known car on that dyno or some std cars to see how it pans out.
Dyno's are only a tuning tool not for racing.

Give that car a tune with some decent timing and it would be a rocket ship

[SV8VY]

I am the guy in syd that ran 210Kwrw stock, on two dyno's a phew months apart :D One dyno being @ Sam's Performance

But i can tell you now, the 240Kwrw and 800Nmrw torque that it has now is a massive diffrence... the AVERAGE power was 266hprw stock to 313hprw after mod's...

3.9's make a big diffrence to...Mine has 530 nm of torque...how can you have 800? or am I reading this wrong.
Ive been on a few dynos with some under and some over.
My car dynos from 212 rkw to 235 rkw.
I just see how it goes on the track.This is the best measurement of power for me.

[Drizzt]

Mine has 530 nm of torque...how can you have 800? or am I reading this wrong.
Ive been on a few dynos with some under and some over.
My car dynos from 212 rkw to 235 rkw.
I just see how it goes on the track.This is the best measurement of power for me.

That's what I'm trying to work out as well. My stroker makes just over 7600Nm of tractive effort so if we take 7600Nm as the base figure and convert it to KG/force/Meter it works out to be 774.98 kg/force/meter. As the car feels very storng and capable of 11s while he's only in the 13s, 800kg/force/meter works out to be 7845Nm of tractive effort which has me stumped from a stock bolt on car :confused:

Someone correct me but I'm pretty sure the conversion is correct as per http://www.onlineconversion.com/torque.htm.


Drizzt

[Sid447]

Mine has 530 nm of torque...how can you have 800? or am I reading this wrong.

No,

You aren't reading it wrong. The dyno sheets that I've seen on this Forum are some of the strangest and most non-standard I've ever come across.
Nobody that I've seen is doing it the same as another, and very few are similar.
You will see figures in Nm that have nothing to do with rear wheel torque (so that it could tie in with the Kw plot).

Why the Nm trace is put there in the first place I don't know because it causes so much confusion and has been doing so for some years now.

Some of the best and easiest to understand are done by Sam's Performance (in good old HP and lbs-ft of torque)
And those done by Delco.

[markone2]

No,

You aren't reading it wrong. The dyno sheets that I've seen on this Forum are some of the strangest and most non-standard I've ever come across.
Nobody that I've seen is doing it the same as another, and very few are similar.
You will see figures in Nm that have nothing to do with rear wheel torque (so that it could tie in with the Kw plot).

Why the Nm trace is put there in the first place I don't know because it causes so much confusion and has been doing so for some years now.

Some of the best and easiest to understand are done by Sam's Performance (in good old HP and lbs-ft of torque)
And those done by Delco.


:D
But you must agree that at the end of the day when the fine tuning is over, the sheet make's for an excellent fire starter, and at a pinch fine bum wipers if you’re caught short of a roll in the wee room

[carneb]

That's what I'm trying to work out as well. My stroker makes just over 7600Nm of tractive effort so if we take 7600Nm as the base figure and convert it to KG/force/Meter it works out to be 774.98 kg/force/meter. As the car feels very storng and capable of 11s while he's only in the 13s, 800kg/force/meter works out to be 7845Nm of tractive effort which has me stumped from a stock bolt on car :confused:

Someone correct me but I'm pretty sure the conversion is correct as per http://www.onlineconversion.com/torque.htm.


Drizzt

The tractive effort on the dyno graphs (at least the ones I've seen) is in newtons, not newton metres. You can convert the N to kg force by dividing it by 'g' which is 9.81. So 7600N gives 774 kg force. Maybe the other figure of 800 is kg force metre, which is torque not tractive effort?

[Sid447]

Carneb,

Yes, but it does nothing to lessen the confusion here.
Torque has been measured in either lbs-ft on the imperial scale or Newton Metres if you are metric, by just about every country on this planet, for quite a long time now!

Why go through a complicated calculator process when all this is a touch of the keyboard away on the dyno computer.
Then you can cross-refer to your hearts content with others, car magazine information, technical write-ups and just about everything else to do with engines, cars, how fast is it & how powerful is it, articles the world over.

As everyone is then on the same wavelength!

[carneb]

Carneb,

Why go through a complicated calculator process when all this is a touch of the keyboard away on the dyno computer.

The dynos that do give torque in Nm or lb-ft would still only give a figure that does not take into account dyno and drivetrain losses (correct me if I'm wrong).This figure would be about as comparable to other dyno runs as the power figures are. You would also have to rely on the dyno operator entering the correct diff and gearbox ratio or the figure would be out, and this doen't always happen.

[Sid447]

Chassis dynos,

as you know, measure power at the driven wheels.
To be able to plot the true corrected Killowatts or hp, you have to have true torque at the wheels in the first place.
HP = Torque, multiplied by a formula, and then divided by rpm.

Nothing can accurately measure drivetrain losses to my knowledge.
I've seen SUN dynos measuring drivetrain loss by allowing cars to coast down in neutral after it's done the "pull" to see how long it takes the rollers to come to a standstill, and that worked pretty well from what I could determine.

[vxcalaiszzz]

I thought we had all agreed quarter mile was true measure of engine performance and comparing printouts from different dyno's is a moot point.

[Sid447]

I thought we had all agreed quarter mile was true measure of engine performance and comparing printouts from different dyno's is a moot point.

Try telling that,

To the majority here!

Though I don't think everyone is interested in drag-racing here, and quite a few probably wouldn't be prepared to subject their cars to the rigours of what's involved.
They are just happy (and confused) talking about dyno sheets and having dyno days.........Different strokes and all that.

Besides if the 1/4 mile was the best measure, then how do you account for jammy b's like markone2 who has less power than a lot of other people and yet has better results.
And delco didn't hit 10.22 with the most power.
The "sloppy-link" between the steering-wheel and the seat will always make a difference.
Just like different dyno operators will always do things differently.

[CarlFST60L]

The dyno that shows my car with 590ft-lb (800Nm) of torque is Sam's, done by Sam and Tom... Last time I posted this info up i had a similar line of questioning and comments... A rang up Tom and asked him (month or 2 ago)and he said that this is a measure of torque at the wheels, it is more than at the engine due to the gear box and 3.9's mulitplying the torque figures, as torque is multiplied by final drive ratio...

Yes a true good measure of the real effectiveness of mod's is the ET and MPH... Although i have only ever had two runs so there is more in it 4 sure!!!

From memory:
2.4 60' @ 13.5 @ 105MPH (dodge start, didnt flat change 1/2 or 3/4)
2.0 60' @ 13.4 @ 106MPH (good start, still can do better, missed third gear big time while attempting a flat change from 2nd to 3rd)

From this i can see 13.0/13.2 @ 107mph/108mph once i get the gears and the launch together... Not in any rush to get back there.. PS and its in full

[VooDoo]

Wouldnt the weight of the car also be a deciding factor?



Ive done a 1.84 @ 13.1 @ 104mph but in a 2000kg car. My Torque on the dyno was 554Ft-lb.

Basing this on your ET/MPH theory i should have more torque due to the increased mass it had to move. (or i could be totally wrong and screwed up somewhere.)

Is my reasoning accurate?

http://voodoo.theddrzone.com/images/stato/dyno2.jpg

[Drizzt]

Wouldnt the weight of the car also be a deciding factor?



Ive done a 1.84 @ 13.1 @ 104mph but in a 2000kg car. My Torque on the dyno was 554Ft-lb.

Basing this on your ET/MPH theory i should have more torque due to the increased mass it had to move. (or i could be totally wrong and screwed up somewhere.)

Is my reasoning accurate?

http://voodoo.theddrzone.com/images/stato/dyno2.jpg

Voodoo

I think this comment from Sid about sums it all up :)


The "sloppy-link" between the steering-wheel and the seat will always make a difference.


Drizzt

[Sid447]

The dyno that shows my car with 590ft-lb (800Nm) of torque is Sam's, done by Sam and Tom... Last time I posted this info up i had a similar line of questioning and comments... A rang up Tom and asked him (month or 2 ago)and he said that this is a measure of torque at the wheels, it is more than at the engine due to the gear box and 3.9's mulitplying the torque figures, as torque is multiplied by final drive ratio...

Yes agreed!
But getting the true torque is still very simple as the info comes directly from the Kw line (and leaving this other torque line off completely as that is what's confusing people).
Any gear ratio change is basically changing torque output.
A diff is a step-down ratio so is actually lowering torque.
On a 3.91 for example the propshaft will turn 3.91 times and the diff output (driveshaft or axle) once.
It's the gearbox that's the torque multiplier and that's why a lot of people try and do cars in 1:1 ratio (3rd in A4 cars and 4th in M6) as it gets rid of the multiplication factor or the "variable")

If you show me a sheet with Kw or hp on it and it is on a graph with rpm along the bottom I can work out wheel torque with a $4 calculator.

Re: the drag-strip measuring system; I think it's even more variable than using the SAME dyno every time.
For example if a car has a diff ratio change to a lower ratio and nothing else; it will no doubt improve most cars time and speed but you have actually lost 1 or 2 hp in going to a numerically higher (but less efficient) diff.
And the improved time and speed does not equate to a change in hp.

There are those that swear by their own systems or ways of doing things,
again different strokes.
I'm not here to push something down other peoples throats. I would like to see a lot of the guys here understand a dyno sheet better though, and use it for what it's for.
But trying to get some sort of standard presentation is not an easy task.

Whenever I go to a dyno I tell the operator exactly what I want (Three sheets of hp over rpm please, with AFR, MAP and actual wheel torque) and the thing spits it out of the printer, after a good accurate density altitude and RH correction.

But as long as the majority are only interested in what the engine does for one part of a second at peak power, then I guess most will be stuck with the type of graphs that are seen here.
The interest in HOW the power is made, where it starts to come in, where the power and the torque is peaking, has the torque peak moved up a little in the rpm range or down, where does it start to get good torque with this cam I've put in, have I now got more AVERAGE torque (hence better acceleration) than before etc.

It's all there to be had and thus helps us understand what is going on after any changes or adjustments to our cars.
And as long as the same dyno facility is used each time with the exact same programme, any changes you care to make on the car will show (to within 5hp) exactly what has happened.

For people interested, read here: http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/139_0303_class/

--- Sid447 ---

[CarlFST60L]

I agree Sid, the key is to understand...

I can email you one of the dyno sheets if you want to post it up and give some feedback...

[Mongy]

The "sloppy-link" between the steering-wheel and the seat will always make a difference.
:lol: Now I know why mine does not do all that good :lol: You hit the nail on the head Steve, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!!

[Sid447]

Wouldnt the weight of the car also be a deciding factor?


Weight is the biggest deciding factor.

That's how the 0-100mph and back to 0mph (all in a one-r) world record was broken by a Caterham 7 weighing less than 500kgs dripping wet and with less than 300hp.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/caterham/caterham_autocar_scores_a_hat_trick_world_record_w ith_caterham_seven_r500_evolution_30_04_04.asp?swi tched=on&echo=288124509

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,10212623%255E21822,00.html

Weight in Kg divided by torque in lbs-ft gives a good approximation of both 0-62mph time and 30-70 (or 50 to 112kph) acceleration time.

As a yardstick also in the average car: every 10kg of weight gain is the same as losing 2hp
Every 50 kilos of gain is losing 0.5 miles to the imperial gallon in fuel consumption.

So for performance..........add lightness!
Spend 5K and get a 1250kg Commodore, you wouldn't need to touch the engine then.
1700kg / 350lbs-ft* = 4.85
1250kg / 350lbs-ft = 3.57 .......a whopping 35% power-to-weight gain.

1. *[stock tuned LS1 engine figure taken from Sam's site]
2. [The 1700kg car example here would have to make over 475lbs-ft of torque, and pretty much the same or more hp to get similar results].

[VooDoo]

Thanks for that info Steve. A fountain of info you are :)


Makes my 13.1 in my big barge feel better. Hopefully 12's unopened soon.