How the GTO can be 'saved'..........Part II

[glennbayard]

CONTINUED FROM How the GTO can be saved......Part I

The trunk has been effectively half consumed by the relocation of the gas tank into the forward trunk, an unfortunate late safety recognition, reducing it to the smallest trunk in class, including the nearly 2 foot shorter RX8! Even a flat tire will not fit in the trunk.........be prepared to sit it on the beautiful leather interior. Why didn't GM do something as simple as recontouring the trunk floor pan to take advantage of this 18.5 gallon removal to expand the usable trunk volume?

The lack of attention to detail by Pontiac's mods are evident in EVERYTHING it changed from the Monaro as well. Plus, why not offer the very popular interior color choice tan/saddle in lieu of purple??? I understand int/ext colors were set by Holden but THIS is the one time Pontiac could have a positive influence, for a change.

Exterior: Nearly all the mods Pontiac did make were ill conceived, transforming a stylish Monaro design into a plain unattractive GTO. A few observations:

Front-- Why do Holdens get HID (I have heard only) while US get ill adjusted halogens.............I nearly went off the road going 30 MPH at night during my test drive, running out past the low beams........and several other owners complain about the same problem, unbelievable!! Then there is the circa 1994 front grill design, no power image sculpured/bulging hood lines that such a performance car screams for. Hood scoops are passe/juvinille, desired by a small, diminishing, but vocal group of old Goat aficionados, not by mainstream potential buyers (does this mean GM is introducing them in 05??).

And what is going on with the several 'party' exterior colors available, yet few of the more popular American colors. For example medium silver gray, the #1 seller for 2003 by EVERY manufacturer and absent from the GTO palette.

Side -- Because the Monaro is a several year old design to be replaced entirely with a new one in a few years a much needed change in the sheet metal would not be feasible. However, the few changes Pontiac could have made and did were all for the worse. The very European/elegant side turn signals were replaced with stick-on GTO labels. The gorgeous Monaro 18 wheels were replaced with the most unappealing 17 wheel design imaginable. A carefully designed belt line trim strip, as seen in some SEMA magazines would add significant eye appeal for little cost. This car has tasteful lines, only requiring a few OEM add on enhancements, none of which GM did, or did well. Should nearly every buyer feel compelled to buy new wheels etc because of lack of basic design capabilities by the manufacturer? One only has to look at for example G35 and RX8 18 wheels and it's painfully obvious Pontiac is simply inept!

Rear-- Why would a standard equipment spoiler contain a second third brake light??? It's as if it were an after-market oversight.......and this was planned for 18K units by GM?...........another 'I don't believe it'!! To have a spoiler or not is debatable, by far most potential buyers preferring not to have one. Even the spoiler design is poor.........just look at the many after-market spoilers fitted on the Monaro at various websites will convince anyone of this.

And for the lack of exhaust dual splitters GM claim they didn't have the room or time to introduce it in 04 model, perhaps 05. Really?? With a car measuring nearly 73 inches wide GM couldn't figure out how to duct a 3 inch pipe into the rear of a car that had it's entire rear fuel tank removed/displaced, yet allegedly 'labored' over the exhaust sound?? The contour/skin of the rear bumper lacks any kind of design detail. I have seen several artist renderings and after-market rear bumper efforts that is truly beautiful, incorporating rear splitters etc. Just a little design inspiration and creativity could have transformed the entire rear profile into something attractive and deserving of such a performance car, instead we have the often quoted Cavalier look.

The masses of real potential buyers for this car wants something clean, stylish, a bit distinctive, not overly plain or claded/hood scooped...............just look at what the public is buying in the record selling BMW's, Infiniti's and Mazda's. Let's eliminate sleeper from the typical GTO vocabulary...........few if anyone wants to pay $34K for a plain performance/luxury vehicle.

Any competent car company could cost effectively correct these problems, and quickly. The question is whether GM will step up to the plate to preserve and expand it's historically rich market potential for a fine 4 seater performance car, or soon discount them through promotions to move the metal.

Oh yea, I would simply love to purchase one of the 'improved' GTOs, right now...........lets just hope GM is 'awake' and responsive, doing the right thing to perpetuate this car's legacy of greatness!!

Glenn Bayard

[Venom XR]

Heated seats maybe, but heated rear view mirrors?

You mention Monaro several times, but perhaps you've forgotten it's an Australian designed and built car. Imported cars have those features, but I don't know of any Australian car that has those luxuries. Might be useful in Tassie, or Melbourne during winter, but otherwise, they aren't necessary here.

The cost of adding those to the build process would only increase the cost of the GTO when it finally arrives in the US - and you guys already get it cheaper than we do.

I've never heard anyone criticising the rear bumper design, or other aspects of the car here - some consider just adding a small rear wing to be blasphemous. As it comes off the factory floor, the Monaro is one of the best looking cars on our roads.

The best solution in the long term, is for GM in the US to take the platform Holden is developing for GM, and put their own sheet metal and plastic (assuming they'll add more of that) and luxury novelties and leave Holden to produce the new Monaro for Australia, and other markets where the 'as built' look and configuration is good for them.

[clixanup]

Heated seats maybe, but heated rear view mirrors?

Heated external mirrors are standard on Calais.

[V-Car]

The best solution in the long term, is for GM in the US to take the platform Holden is developing for GM, and put their own sheet metal and plastic (assuming they'll add more of that) and luxury novelties and leave Holden to produce the new Monaro for Australia, and other markets where the 'as built' look and configuration is good for them.

You sound like a pretty good clairvoyant, Venom! ;) :D

Good story though glennbayard, you make some very valid points. Australia and the US have quite different markets, and while some of those features may not be deemed necessary here, they are probably very important over there.
Any manufacturer who exports, has to be serious about the intended market, but remember that if Holden (or Pontiac) had been given more time, most of those issues would have been addressed im sure.
This model GTO IMO was just a stop gap until the next one designed on the VE platform.
As far as pricing goes, Pontiac is probably got their hands tied on that one...im sure it doesnt cost Holden anywhere near US$34k to build the GTO, but over there they have very strict anti-dumping laws where the vehicle cant sell for much less than it was in the home market, so they have to take a bit of content out, and hope they can sell it for a little less than here, and hope the regulators dont hassle them.
If Holden sold it here for about $45k, it would probably be alot cheaper over there.
Lets all hope it does sell though, because if it doesnt, the whole program might get canned, and then we probably wouldnt get a new Monaro at all.

[Danv8]

Pfft they don't deserve our monaro!

Let GM USA build their own RWD V8 cars and make them ugly as sin.

:lol:

Only kiddin.

[Roger]

The trunk has been effectively half consumed by the relocation of the gas tank into the forward trunk, an unfortunate late safety recognition....Why didn't GM do something as simple as recontouring the trunk floor pan to take advantage of this 18.5 gallon removal to expand the usable trunk volume?
As has already been said - time constraints

why not offer the very popular interior color choice tan/saddle in lieu of purple??? I understand int/ext colors were set by Holden but THIS is the one time Pontiac could have a positive influence, for a change. Geez you have my vote if you guys got a purple interior :spew:

..... no power image sculpured/bulging hood lines that such a performance car screams for. Hood scoops are passe/juvinille, desired by a small, diminishing, but vocal group of old Goat aficionados, not by mainstream potential buyers
Bulging bonnet lines are in the same class as hood scoops if they are not required in my opinion.

And what is going on with the several 'party' exterior colors available, yet few of the more popular American colors. For example medium silver gray, the #1 seller for 2003 by EVERY manufacturer and absent from the GTO palette.
We get poor colour choice, why shouldn't you get it as well ??

The very European/elegant side turn signals were replaced with stick-on GTO labels. The gorgeous Monaro 18 wheels were replaced with the most unappealing 17 wheel design imaginable. A carefully designed belt line trim strip, Why would a standard equipment spoiler contain a second third brake light??? It's as if it were an after-market oversight.......and this was planned for 18K units by GM?
on the SS, we have a V8 badge & the turn signal - looks busy. I removed the badge. Personal taste.
Wheels, I have the 18" version of what you guys have & it was surprising that they put 17's on instead of leaving the 18's on there.
Belt line trim strip - hmm, again personal taste
Enough already said about spoiler, should have been an option to put it on rather than take it off. Seems you really got the rough end of the deal if they retained the brake light behind the rear glass as well as the spoiler brake light - that does scream afterthought.

lack of exhaust dual splitters GM claim they didn't have the room or time to introduce it in 04 model, perhaps 05. Really?? With a car measuring nearly 73 inches wide GM couldn't figure out how to duct a 3 inch pipe into the rear of a car that had it's entire rear fuel tank removed/displaced, yet allegedly 'labored' over the exhaust sound??
You guys appear to be obsessed with that you have to have an exit on either side of the car. Why ? Again, no big deal to us. Some guys change it here.
And fitting an exhaust to every car that goes out of the factory that will never hit under any circumstances is a big deal. Okay for a custom builder, but for a mass produced car, I would suggest not. Have a close look at the factory exhaust, it has all sorts of flats in it just to ensure that doesn't happen, power robbing maybe. But to the person that doesn't want to change the exhaust, they don't want it to hit on something every time they go over a bump.

The contour/skin of the rear bumper lacks any kind of design detail. I have seen several artist renderings and after-market rear bumper efforts that is truly beautiful, incorporating rear splitters etc. Just a little design inspiration and creativity could have transformed the entire rear profile into something attractive and deserving of such a performance car, instead we have the often quoted Cavalier look. Perhaps they should have changed the rear instead of the front ????

The question is whether GM will step up to the plate to preserve and expand it's historically rich market potential for a fine 4 seater performance car, or soon discount them through promotions to move the metal. Oh yea, I would simply love to purchase one of the 'improved' GTOs, right now...........lets just hope GM is 'awake' and responsive, doing the right thing to perpetuate this car's legacy of greatness!!
You own a 330, seen here as a different genre to the Monaro, they start at almost twice the price of a Monaro. Rear legroom in a 330 ? Not in the same league as the Monaro. Hey there are lots of things they need to change & I am sure some of them will be addressed, but you do have a fickle market & to compare the GTO to RX8, 330CI Coupe & Nissan 350Z (assume that's what you mean), seems a little unfair. Surely that is Corvette territory ??

[Roger]

Glenn Bayard

Oh & Glenn, don't mean any offense to you with any of my thoughts / comments - just observations.

Time to ditch that 330 next year & get a V8 - you know you want to.......
:)

[VX2VESS]

why use the trunk at all for the tank. I'd rather the tank outside the car.

redesign the floor pan fit it under the center of the car like some jap cars (under the rear seat area). lower center of gravity etc some of these cars they fit quite neatly and high up under the floor pan.

[SSbaby]

Perhaps the VE will have it in front of the rear axle i.e. under the rear seats? That way the boot will at least have decent storage capacity.

Anyone ever tried fitting two large suitcases in the boot of a Commodore? It's a cinch in a fwd Camry :eek:

[r8ls1]

You own a 330, seen here as a different genre to the Monaro, they start at almost twice the price of a Monaro.

but comparing to BMW cost over there

BMW 330CI (http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/bmw_3series_330cicoupe_2004/12470/style_overview.html)

BMW M3 (http://www.carsdirect.com/research/bmw/m3/2004/base)



Why didn't GM do something as simple as recontouring the trunk floor pan to take advantage of this 18.5 gallon removal to expand the usable trunk volume?

that costs money :idea: if they arent prepared to spend any to make it right, they wont sell. i agree what they did with the fuel tank is just wrong :spew:

[VX2VESS]

Perhaps the VE will have it in front of the rear axle i.e. under the rear seats? That way the boot will at least have decent storage capacity.

Anyone ever tried fitting two large suitcases in the boot of a Commodore? It's a cinch in a fwd Camry :eek:

or an excel even they fit heaps in, and really big things with the fold down rear seats.

[FunkyPig]

i agree what they did with the fuel tank is just wrong :spew:
I've read that the updated Monaro coming out soon (later this year or early '05 is my guess) will have a GTO fuel tank, in order to fit a dual exit exhaust) as well as the new HSV Coupe4. I think this is a big mistake, I rate a large trunk much more highly than having an exhaust exit on each side when it is unnecessary for extra power or sound (Meaning a single exit can generate high power and great sounds anyway).

[FunkyPig]

Here's some responses to this same post on another US GTO forum. These people don't like someone picking faults in their cars. Fair enough I say.
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3310

[Red CV8 R]

I really think people are nitpicking at this car. It seems 99% of Americans want the GTO to fail and just enjoy ripping in to it. I mean if there was no GTO as far as I can see the V8 muscle car fans would have to buy a stang, or if loaded a vette. I can see some of the issues as I dont like the front end and detest the spoiler myself and think it should have gone in the same trim level as the Monaro with 18s climate control etc. They then should have offered an optional wild bodykit for people who think the car looks to sedate. But in the end if you dont like the car then build a bridge! Why keep going on about it? I love the Monaro and regret not waiting around for one when I bought my SS and couldnt care less if it doesnt have heated seats as it is a great looking coupe with lots of room and lots of grunt, the GTO seems the same it is just a bit uglier! :D

[Venom XR]

Heated external mirrors are standard on Calais.

I didn't know that, there ya go! :)

This US media reporting is a bit deja-vu-ish of the Ford Capri export. Yeah, the Ford Capri has a few leaky roofs early on, but they fixed that, and it was actually a good selling car, and had a pretty good customer satisfaction and there's a bit of a fan club for them nowadays - even new Ford Oz boss Tom Gorman owns one.

Production quality has improved here since then, but still the US media is giving Australian product a good bashing in print (perhaps not as viscious with regards to the Monaro/GTO...)

[FunkyPig]

How fewer pointless arguements would we be having if it was called the "Pontiac Monaro" with front bar similar to a VY/VX/V2 if not the same. At the end of the day they called it GTO and built it up to be something outstanding, you can never please everyone. The next one will be agressive, but there will be just as much winging. To be honest I do not care much any more.

[SSbaby]

Maybe we can do a trade and Holden could import a Pontiac to our shores...we could paint a similar picture and tell the yanks what we think of really think of their Aztecs.

[TriShield]

Glen registered on all the GTO boards and made the same post, then disappeared. The other boards believe he's simply flamebaiting.

As for the criticism. Everyone on the internet seems to be a critic, and opinions are like, well you know. The attitude is starting to become prevelant on practically any new model car.

From the Chevrolet SSR (It doesn't have 800 horsepower!), the redesigned Corvette (It doesn't look just like a C5, that sucks!) to the upcoming Dodge Charger (It sucks because it has four doors), and the upcoming Pontiac Solstice (A four cylinder? It should have an eight cylinder! Balanced handling be damned!), and anything else you can dream of.

It's getting tiring.

[TriShield]

A related, and quite good op-ed from AutoExtremist,

Cracking the Code.

by Peter M. DeLorenzo

Detroit. We're all used to the scenario by now: Car company introduces drop-dead concept at major auto show. Media goes gaga. Cries of "Build it! Build it!" are heard far and wide. Car company executives issue cagey denials, while they huddle privately and wonder out loud if they really can build it. Enthusiasts are whipped into a frenzy - as the media drumbeating intensifies. And then, with much ballyhoo, an announcement is made that the fabulous concept introduced will, in fact, be produced. High-fiving breaks out. Internet chat rooms are filled with rampant speculation and anticipation. And then the advanced preview articles start appearing complete with camouflaged prototypes caught in testing.

It would be a great story if the product in question appeared no more than six months later. But it just doesn't work that way. Or, should I say, the logistics of modern car building won't let it work that way. No matter what a car company does, the given duration for getting a vehicle from concept to market is 24 months. An incredibly small amount of time, when you think about it - and certainly impressive given the development times of even five years ago. But in this day and age of millisecond attention spans and the emphasis on The Next Big Thing - it's still not enough.

And that's when the problems ensue.

Though enthusiasts and the enthusiast-based car media influence the manufacturers and the vehicles they build (and rightly so), their attention span is notoriously short too. Add to that the fact that the whole automobile business is fueled by what's new and what's next - and you have a system that has huge built-in flaws right from the start.

Right now, GM is in the midst of a carefully orchestrated media campaign to go along with its carefully orchestrated development program for the new Pontiac Solstice sports car. They even went so far as to invite a select group of journalists over to England to drive some rough early prototypes recently. It's all a calculated attempt at maintaining interest and creating visibility for a car that is still basically more than a year away. Introduced as a concept in Detroit in January 2003, GM showed the production-ready version of the Solstice at the NAIAS in January 2004 - well in advance of when it's due to hit dealers in notable quantities sometime after January of 2005 (if all goes to plan).

GM's problem is that there is no possible way for any car company to maintain the "buzz" and the interest in a car that has been part of the automotive media/enthusiast landscape for two years - no matter how good it is. The Solstice may or may not be good, it's too early to tell. It's certainly an arresting design and an alluring package, and I have no doubt a higher horsepower version will be phased-in not too long after its introduction, but what will be happening in the market by then? What will the competitive landscape be next year? Will there be any "fatal flaws" in the car like the lack of power in the Chevy SSR hot-rod pickup, for instance, or the lack of design presence in the Pontiac GTO?

[TriShield]

I have said repeatedly over the last five years (we celebrate the fifth anniversary of Autoextremist.com next week, by the way - ed.) that a bold-thinking manufacturer needs to come along and change the rules of the game. So what if a manufacturer didn't announce a new vehicle until it was less than six months away from production startup?

That would require the kind of bold strokes that some would argue "just can't be done" in this day in age. It's too ballsy, "they" would say. Too expensive. Too much information would be leaked to keep a new project of that magnitude a secret. And too risky. You name it - the list of reasons why an auto manufacturer shouldn't even consider it would be long and deep.

But I contend that the first manufacturer that did so would reap the benefits - and win big. The first manufacturer to keep a lid on a new vehicle program right up to the last second and then introduce it to the media at an auto show, with order books in hand - would set the automotive world on its ear.

And then that winning scenario would go something like this: Car company introduces drop-dead concept at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Media goes gaga. Cries of "Build it! Build it!" are heard far and wide. Car company executives then stun everyone by saying that the car or truck can be ordered immediately and that it will be arriving in showrooms in May - just five months away. Enthusiasts go wild as the prospect of them being able to actually get their hands on the vehicle in a matter of months - instead of years - whips them into a frenzy. And then the manufacturer finds out that not only do they have a hit on their hands, they can actually take advantage of the hype and deliver the goods in short order.

Coming up with a great concept is one thing - they're literally a dime a dozen every auto show season. Being able to build it and deliver it at a competitive price point - and make a profit doing it - is another part of the equation. And then doing the whole thing start-to-finish in 24 months? Well, that used to be enough in this game.

Built it, and they'll come - right?

But keeping the car-buying public's interest in that concept until it gets built is another thing altogether.

Somebody has to do it differently - and better.

I'm waiting for the first manufacturer to "crack the code."

But we're not there yet.

And the beauty of it all is that we won't know we're there until someone has the cojones to actually go out and do it.

[Ricko]

In the end, what Australians find looks good in a car varies greatly from what Americans like. If you get an Australian car and try to "Americanise" it's never gonna be perfect from either side of the fence. I myself think the Monaro looks dead set Horn and is bet sans spoiler IMO. Not only do we like cars that look different but we like em to ride/handle differently too.

A Toyota Avalon is a good large car that leaves both Falcon and Commodore behind in most areas as far as function, dynamics, NVH etc but Australians avoid it like the plague because its an American design that has been unsuccessfully (spelling) restyled to TRY and appeal to Aussie tastes.

[glennbayard]

I"m sorry, but you accuse me of 'disappearing and flamebaithing'.........why in the world would you ever say such a baseless thing? Importantly, I praised the GTO while identifiying numerous shortcomings, that is all, my motives were simply to get Pontiac to 'listen' to the REAL buying public, not a few GTO fanatics that are defending thier purchase. About that suggetion that I 'disappeared' I do have a life and this forum is not my main focus. I was simply trying to be very objective, and especially hopeful that if anyone is 'listening' at Pontiac then postitive changes would be soon made. I actually would LOVE to buy a 05 GTO, as I expressed already.

Pls look at my other post 'GTO Sales Failure' by GM and automotive industry experts, as reported in the Detroit News, May 24, 04 ie I view the GTO like the rest of the world, not as an owner that subjectively defends his purchase. I have no agenda than the one mentioned.......how could you possibly think differently other than you can not deny any of my objective impressions of the GTO.....the truth hurts I suppose. I am not flamebating or whatever you said. I spent a considerable time to formulate a sensible, well supported critique of the GTO, which happens to parallel the automotive industry, less the diehard owners. After all, when you read the Detroit News article about declining GTO sales you will agree with me that 'I'm on to something' and obvious to the rest of the world. Just a little basic common sense but failed sales equals unmet expectations, less than competive, less than attractive at same price points..........this should not come as a mystery to anyone.

Oh, about the cost of a BMW vw GTO, a nicely equipped 325, with tons more std equipment sells at a similar transaction price as a GTO.......and the Infiniti G5 for the same $ with tons more equipement as well..........I don't make this stuff up. Sorry to disappoint you further but you will see very few more 'rebutals' to my Part I and II. My objective being to 'move' Pontiac, not debate on line with you or others. Have a good day, I mean no offense to you.undefined
Glen registered on all the GTO boards and made the same post, then disappeared. The other boards believe he's simply flamebaiting.

As for the criticism. Everyone on the internet seems to be a critic, and opinions are like, well you know. The attitude is starting to become prevelant on practically any new model car.

From the Chevrolet SSR (It doesn't have 800 horsepower!), the redesigned Corvette (It doesn't look just like a C5, that sucks!) to the upcoming Dodge Charger (It sucks because it has four doors), and the upcoming Pontiac Solstice (A four cylinder? It should have an eight cylinder! Balanced handling be damned!), and anything else you can dream of.

It's getting tiring.


Glenn Bayard's reply.

[Red CV8 R]

If you are only looking for a car with lots of equipment then you are missing what the GTO is about, Having spent time in a optioned up 325i I can tell you on a performance level they are not in the same class as the Monaro/GTO. Very nice car but slow and I didnt find the handling and dynamics to be what I was lead to believe. I am not familiar with the infinity but I belive it is a R35 skyline? Havent driven one so cant comment. The RX8, well I have been looking at these with a mate of mine believe the Monaro to be a match for this car in most areas and alot more gruntier. The interior of the RX8 has an awesome seating position though and it handles well. The 350z is an awsome car and makes a could competitor to the Monaro so that would be a tough choice as I like alot of aspects of this car. Still none of these cars are muscle cars so alot of buyers who look at the GTO wont be interested in them anyway.

[glennbayard]

Just wanted to 'thank you' Aussies (right?) for being so thoughtful and polite in your reply to my opinion re the 04 GTO.......what a delightful treatment compared to the aggressive/hostile replies from US GTO websites!!! My Part I and II review of the GTO/Monaro was only intended to be as objective as possible with one mission in mind only.........to encourage Pontiac to make it BETTER, so I and others can justify buying it. As a chemist/business man I always like a healthy, well reasoned, and respectful debate, so I thank you all.

I'll wait for the 05 intro to see if some of my requirements are met.....such as no spoiler, nicer wheels, dual splitters (sorry I guess us Yanks are really obsessed with this, sorry),and side air bags..........I love my family to much to risk just minimal crash protection.

Please, does anyone know when the GTO 05 will be available, and specific changes,aside from speculation??? Thanks to you all!

Glenn Bayard

[Red CV8 R]

Does the GTO not even come with side air bags? They really stripped the Monaro out didnt they! I am suprised the Leather trim remained... I can see why if dealers are adding thousands on to the price people are hesitatant to purchase a GTO, pitty I am sure it is still an awesome car.

[the mooch]

Hey Glen, back hear in Orstraya as kids we used to peg cardboard to the side of our BMX wheels so that when we rode them they sounded like Harleys. I can mail you said cardboard and you can attach it to the back bumper of your 330 if you like. Maybe with the right amount of wind rush it'll sound like an LS1!, NAHHHHH!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Roger]

I"m sorry, but you accuse me of 'disappearing and flamebaithing'.........why in the world would you ever say such a baseless thing? Importantly, I praised the GTO while identifiying numerous shortcomings, that is all, my motives were simply to get Pontiac to 'listen' to the REAL buying public, not a few GTO fanatics that are defending thier purchase. About that suggetion that I 'disappeared' I do have a life and this forum is not my main focus. I was simply trying to be very objective, and especially hopeful that if anyone is 'listening' at Pontiac then postitive changes would be soon made. I actually would LOVE to buy a 05 GTO, as I expressed already.........
......I spent a considerable time to formulate a sensible, well supported critique of the GTO, which happens to parallel the automotive industry, less the diehard owners. After all, when you read the Detroit News article about declining GTO sales you will agree with me that 'I'm on to something' and obvious to the rest of the world. Just a little basic common sense but failed sales equals unmet expectations, less than competive, less than attractive at same price points..........this should not come as a mystery to anyone.
Oh, about the cost of a BMW vw GTO, a nicely equipped 325, with tons more std equipment sells at a similar transaction price as a GTO.......and the Infiniti G5 for the same $ with tons more equipement as well..........I don't make this stuff up. Sorry to disappoint you further but you will see very few more 'rebutals' to my Part I and II. My objective being to 'move' Pontiac, not debate on line with you or others. Have a good day, I mean no offense to you.undefined
Glenn Bayard's reply.
Glenn if you get on an Australian website & throw a few things in, some good, some not so good & no fault of ours or Holdens, then you're going to cop some flack, some good, some bad, some founded, some unfounded.
You raise many good points, but your beef is with Pontiac, not Holden in a number of areas. Did you expect absolutely everyomne to sit back & say, "Hmmm. Good points Glenn".
Yes Lutz picked up an Australian product & rushed it over there, it fits some, it doesn't fit others.
You'll cop flack from lots here, but surely you knew that once you hit the submit button.....
Anyway, appreciate your opinion, you didn't bag the shite out of it, but will you really trade a 330 for an 05 Australian Goat........
;)

[TriShield]

I"m sorry, but you accuse me of 'disappearing and flamebaithing'.........why in the world would you ever say such a baseless thing?

Read my post more carefully, that seems to be the conclusion the other site has come to, and you might also want to note I stuck up for you there.

I'm also waiting to see what changes are confirmed for 2005 before buying one.

[TriShield]

In the end, what Australians find looks good in a car varies greatly from what Americans like.

That's not really true.

Had they sold the Ute SS here first as the El Camino SS with just badge changes and more power it likely would have went over much better because it wasn't saddled with the legendary name "GTO", and it would have probaby been cheaper. Ditto for the current Ford Falcon. Both cars also look a bit more butch than the Monaro.

The big problem is that the Monaro doesn't look like how a GTO should to most people (real mean). Another problem seems to be the price. It's also priced dab in RX-8, G35 territory, and those cars are selling quite well here.

[RICHO]

A Toyota Avalon is a good large car that leaves both Falcon and Commodore behind in most areas as far as function, dynamics, NVH etc but Australians avoid it like the plague because its an American design that has been unsuccessfully (spelling) restyled to TRY and appeal to Aussie tastes.

I'll buy the NVH, I'll even buy the functionality (barely) by DYNAMICS???

It is a great big wallowy barge compared with either a Commodore or Falcon.

But the Avalons biggesty problem was that it was 5 years old when it arrived in Aust. Tooling from the U.S. was simply moved out here at the end of a model lifecycle, so we got a 5 year old design just as the US picked up a new model. No wonder Toyota are so profitable!!!

[glennbayard]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, when I said no this, no that , including no side air bags etc I meant just that for the GTO ie you guys got a better car and one that could be optioned as desired. At about $33K US, our 'basic' GTO sells for exaxtly the same as a much better equipped BMW 325..........but as one of you good Aussie's pointed out, nothing makes the awsome sounds of a Corvette./GTO 5.7 V8. Take care.
Does the GTO not even come with side air bags? They really stripped the Monaro out didnt they! I am suprised the Leather trim remained... I can see why if dealers are adding thousands on to the price people are hesitatant to purchase a GTO, pitty I am sure it is still an awesome car.

[SSbaby]

I'd gladly have a stripped down GTO if the prices here dropped to $33K :D

I think that consumers in the US have it easy compared to us Aussies. The standard of living is similar (i.e. assume $AUS = $US) between the two countries. The GTO is still a great buy from our perspective. Bare in mind we have to fork out $60K+ for our Monaro just to drive one out of the dealership.

[Ricko]

I'll buy the NVH, I'll even buy the functionality (barely) by DYNAMICS???

It is a great big wallowy barge compared with either a Commodore or Falcon.

But the Avalons biggesty problem was that it was 5 years old when it arrived in Aust. Tooling from the U.S. was simply moved out here at the end of a model lifecycle, so we got a 5 year old design just as the US picked up a new model. No wonder Toyota are so profitable!!!
Although, id dont agree with you the main point of my statement is a good car going from Oz to America or vice versa will often struggle to capture a market as views on what looks good is VASTLY different, and most peole wont buy a car that they cant look at.

[the mooch]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, when I said no this, no that , including no side air bags etc I meant just that for the GTO ie you guys got a better car and one that could be optioned as desired. At about $33K US, our 'basic' GTO sells for exaxtly the same as a much better equipped BMW 325..........but as one of you good Aussie's pointed out, nothing makes the awsome sounds of a Corvette./GTO 5.7 V8. Take care.
Ease up Glen. I was just having a lend of ya. It seems you have formed a well researched opinion for yourself of our hero car that not everybody in this world agrees with. No probs. Everyones entitled to their opinion, including you. I am aware that you have test driven a GTO, but how many of the others that you say share your view have driven one? Realistically, how many are keyboard jockeys (as was pointed out in another thread), how many of those were potential customers, and how many of those honestly thought that they were going to get a leaf sprung, 7 litre pig with bum warmers and ten cup holders? If those potential customers want a car like that, go and buy a poorly made local, front drive slug. The GTO is a V8 rear drive GENUINE 4 seater coupe with near Corvette performance and better road manners than a Mustang. And stop feeding us rubbish about Bee Em 325's. The Beemer won't carry four in comfort like the GTO, nor will it match its performance. And more importantly, it's not a V8. Don't worry, you (and the others) will get your wish. You'll get your pointless bonnet scoops, big doof doof exhaust and bigger motor, maybe you'll even get the better headlights. Don't bet on bum warmers (what do you want them for, anyway?) since they don't fit the "GTO image". Just be thankful that GM has brought such a car to the masses over there; A real muscle car with real handling and real performance at an affordable price. Or you can go and buy said slug. [I]IMHO.........

[glennbayard]

Your poiint is well taken re the GTO/Monaro being muscle cars. However, I don't believe a fine car as the GTO has to loose ALL the amenities we have come to both expect i n a $33K car, and enjoy on a day to day experience. Bum warmers lol as you Aussies say , are really indispensable in the northern climates of the US, mandatory in Canada, providing the interior is leather ie like ice in the winter. Re lights, the GTO is adjusted or deseigned so poorly you run out of lights at about 30 MPH...............this is inexcusable, and besides EVERY performance car at $30K have zenon/HID lights, great for spoting kangaroos lol to!! although we really don't have those critters, but rather tons of deer. And I respectfully suggest you ck out a 325 coupe's rear seat.........let me just elaborate about what I mean about it's creature comfort vs the GTO, you and eveyone else would be amazed...........the 325 coupe has nearly as much headroom, has 2 reading lights, pop open electirc windows, fold down 1/3, 2/3 seats, fold down cente arm rest, quick release access, rear seat duct heaters, rear seat side safety air curtain, THE GTO HAS ZERO OF THESE AMENITIES. Again, I can disect every part of these two cars and it will reveal tons more features for the same price of a GTO........and while the 325 is indeed a bit slower 0-60 MPH in 7.1 sec, the engine is a piece of jewelry.........15K mile oil/filter changes, no timing belt changes, realistic 29 MPG hightway, etc...........so here you have my simple analysis of the back seat and engine............maybe you realize now that Pontiac better get better at what they so or be further overwhelmed by the REAL competion. PS I still 'dream' of Pontiac making some of these changes for 05 to justify a purchase.
Ease up Glen. I was just having a lend of ya. It seems you have formed a well researched opinion for yourself of our hero car that not everybody in this world agrees with. No probs. Everyones entitled to their opinion, including you. I am aware that you have test driven a GTO, but how many of the others that you say share your view have driven one? Realistically, how many are keyboard jockeys (as was pointed out in another thread), how many of those were potential customers, and how many of those honestly thought that they were going to get a leaf sprung, 7 litre pig with bum warmers and ten cup holders? If those potential customers want a car like that, go and buy a poorly made local, front drive slug. The GTO is a V8 rear drive GENUINE 4 seater coupe with near Corvette performance and better road manners than a Mustang. And stop feeding us rubbish about Bee Em 325's. The Beemer won't carry four in comfort like the GTO, nor will it match its performance. And more importantly, it's not a V8. Don't worry, you (and the others) will get your wish. You'll get your pointless bonnet scoops, big doof doof exhaust and bigger motor, maybe you'll even get the better headlights. Don't bet on bum warmers (what do you want them for, anyway?) since they don't fit the "GTO image". Just be thankful that GM has brought such a car to the masses over there; A real muscle car with real handling and real performance at an affordable price. Or you can go and buy said slug. [I]IMHO.........

[Venom XR]

... and better road manners than a Mustang.

...and you last test-drove a 2004 Mustang when?

[the mooch]

I must confess, I have not driven 2004 Mustang. By all accounts, I can't imagine it being any better than the feeble attempt by Ford Aus to ship in the Mustang and convert it to RHD. Before you ask, no I didn't drive one of those either, nor would I want to/bother after the countless articles I read about them, highlighting how much better the Monaro was in comparison.
Glen, it sounds as though you have talked yourself out of purchasing a GTO as it doesn't meet your expectations. Each to their own. There is no point in debating the cars worth with you, as you obviously have certain needs that can't be met by Holden at the moment. Maybe I should pass on the product feedback line number and you can take the matter up with them? :lol: Have a read of the passage below. It came from the "not all us Yanks are thankless *******"
Quote from RA7 GTO:
Thanks Mooch. You are right about some of the supposed "faithful" over here and their negative or luke-warm reception of this excellent car. The ultimate response to them is "drive one first, then open your mouth, not the other way around". Most of these guys have never even SEEN a GTO yet! Besides mine, I've only seen one other on the road! Ironically, these same critics of the "plain" GTO spend the rest of their attention ragging on the Ricers for their wings, scoops, body kits, and "dual" exhausts!

As far as the GTO/Z06 comparison, they really are two different cars with different misssions which is why I will keep them both. The Z is a track car, lightweight, tightly sprung, lightly insulated. Its loud, rough, low-slung, and quick. It's light weight and low center of gravity make it instantly responsive to any change in speed or direction. It probably seems somewhat "punishing" to the driver who fails to frequently press the Pedal of Redemption located near his right foot. This is a young man's car.
The GTO is and feels heavier with a higher center of gravity and a great deal of sound insulation. Pontiac installed softer suspension in our GTOs unfortunately and it shows: alot of body roll in turns, but alot of satisfying squat off the line. The GTO seats are far better than the Vette's and the interior is unmatched in any GM vehicle. Wheel hop (or axle tramp to you) was a problem when stock, but I have not noticed it with the new motor. Stock, the GTO felt like my stock 1999 Camaro SS (rated 320hp) off the line, but handles way better. The GTO initial quality is at least as good as the Z, if not better. In my opinion, the only downsides of the new GTO are the ugly narrow wheels, the narrow non-Z rated tire, lack of LS6 power, small trunk (Z06 holds way more!) and the POS spoiler. Although, I have to admit, with the 295/35/18s filling up the rear, the spoiler almost looks right. As far as an everyday car, the GTO feels downright luxurious compared to the Z.
Any Yank who is looking at BMW 3 or 5 series, MB, Audi 4 or 6 and fails to consider the quality/performance of GTO deserves what they overpay for.

[GMH_GTO]

Just wanted to add maybe update the thread, things are changing for the GTO, they are selling for better prices now. Its become common for me now to see a GTO on the road way to from work. It used to be I knew every GTO owner in chicago :)

Much as some internet people hold a negative opinion on the GTO, I get lots of attention. I go to the parts store to get an oil filter and the guy at the desk calls all the people outside to check out the GTO. This is common.

I'm considering a series 1 monaro conversion.

At the track the GTO is building a reputation, some are running low 13s stock. One GTO is about to dip into the 9s once the diff technics 9" is installed ;)

[XR6 Martin]

Perhaps the VE will have it in front of the rear axle i.e. under the rear seats? That way the boot will at least have decent storage capacity.

Anyone ever tried fitting two large suitcases in the boot of a Commodore? It's a cinch in a fwd Camry :eek:

Holden need to spend the minuscule amount required on getting rid of those stupid boot hinges, it robs a fair bit of space, and you dont realise how bad they are until you need that extra space (or your luggage becomes crushed....)

[slickholden]

I wouldnt buy a Monaro fot the boot who needs a boot, If you want a bot by a statesman this is sports coupe for fun not lugauge:D

[V-Car]

Pontiac has also said it now wants 30% less 2005 cars from Holden.

From Automotive News.

After a year of disappointing sales, Pontiac is scaling back production of the 2005 Pontiac GTO, which was touted as a halo car for the brand. Pontiac will cut GTO production by about 30 percent next year.

[TriShield]

It's true, production will be scaled back to around 1,000 cars per month. Pontiac will better distribute more of the cars to parts of the country that purchase lots of RWD vehicles and try to keep prices stable.

The article also mentioned the redesigned, VE-based GTO will have more retro cues in the styling. Hopefully the Ram Air 6 concept they came up with will end up being close to what it will look like. Everyone on both sides of the Pacific seem to agree that it looks killer. :D

[GMH_GTO]

VE-based GTO will have more retro cues in the styling

sorry, retro= :shiner: