Local softroaders are fragile...

[SSbaby]

Don't believe the hype
By Bob Jennings
http://www.drive.com.au (http://www.drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2004/06/11/FFXJNO07BVD.html)
Friday June 11 2004

Last week, Drive revealed that the two locally-made soft-roaders struggle in the Australian outback. Are the vehicles under-engineered or are their advertisements misleading? Bob Jennings reports.

Advertisements that depict vehicles conquering the great outdoors are under scrutiny following Drive's cover story last week that revealed some vehicles can't handle the conditions portrayed in their commercials.

In particular, the advertisements for Ford's Territory have come to the attention of authorities and rival brands, who stop short of accusing the company of misleading conduct.

A newspaper advertisement for the Territory claims it "gives you the ability to go off the beaten track", with the vehicle pictured against a fanciful backdrop atop a sand dune. It gives the price "from $38,990" -- the price of the two-wheel drive version.

In small type at the bottom of the ad it is pointed out that the vehicle depicted is a four-wheel-drive variant.

"This could be construed by some people as being misleading," said the deputy CEO of the Australian Consumers Association, Norm Crothers. "People could believe that 'off the beaten track' means that the vehicle could go off-road or on what are described on maps as four-wheel-drive tracks. Under the terms of the Trade Practices Act, it could bear examination." Misleading advertising can attract fines of up to $110,000 for corporations under the NSW Fair Trading Act, a spokesperson for the minister's office said.

Toyota's senior manager of marketing strategy, Peter Evans, said: "We have some concerns about the Territory ads and we are going to talk to [Ford] about it. If we don't get any action we'll take the matter further, but we'd rather approach them first rather than make an official complaint to authorities.

"The ad clearly depicts a four-wheel-drive Territory performing four-wheel-drive manoeuvres, yet the price at the end of the ad is for the two-wheel-drive model."

Evans believes there are Advertising Standards and Trade Practices issues with the advertisements. "We believe that there is a valid argument that they could be seen as misleading," Evans said.

Holden spokesman Jason Laird added: "There is legislation in place covering what is perceived to be fair and accurate representation of vehicles, and this would be a matter for the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission to consider."

Ford spokeswoman Louise Teesdale said there had been "absolutely no complaints from the public about Territory advertising".

"Most people are aware that Territory is a range of vehicles," she said.

In Drive's comparison test over nearly 6000km to the centre of Australia, both the Ford Territory and Holden Adventra were found to be more fragile than the ads for them suggest.

The ACCC has power to examine whether such matters are in breach of the Trade Practices Act, which has provision for penalties including jail and fines of millions of dollars. It would be up to a court to decide whether an average person would be led to believe that the vehicles were capable of the exploits depicted in the advertisements, a spokesperson for the ACCC, Lin Enright, said.

"The courts tend to be quite lenient on what they refer to as 'puffery' in this area, but if we were to receive complaints we would look at the matter further," she said, adding the same would apply to suggestions of misleading advertising regarding pricing or specifications of vehicles. Motor vehicle advertising is controlled by a Federal Chamber of Automotive Industry code of practice, which has been in effect since December 1, 2002, and is administered by the Advertising Standards Board. However, in November last year, state and territory transport ministers expressed concern at what they referred to as the failure of the code and suggested a new mandatory system of regulation for motor vehicle advertisements.

A review of the code has been carried out involving the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, state and territory road safety authorities, motoring organisations such as the NRMA, the Advertising Standards Bureau, and representatives of relevant community organisations, and is expected to be presented for approval to the Australian Transport Council on June 30.

Importantly, a draft of the code notes that the use of "disclaimers" at the end of ads "cannot in any way be used to justify the inclusion of material which otherwise does not comply with the provisions of the code".

Prices and details correct at publication date.

[Ghia351]

Must be a quiet week in the automotive world....and newspapers always get the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...yeah right.

[SSbaby]

I recall Geoff Polites threatening to sue Holden over the ad wording for Adventra..."only crossover vehicle designed in Australia" or words to the effect, well before Territory's release.

Of course Toyota would complain...they own the 4WD/AWD market and would do anything possible to protect it.

I, too, don't think much of what some journo's think. Just drive the car before you make any purchasing decision and never base your decision solely around a verdict offered from an article.

[FunkyPig]

Drive takes the Holden, Ford, and few other more rugged Jap 4WD's out and throws some tough terrain at them. The Ford and Holden both stumble in places. This is more of a question of reliability and duability than off road ability. Off course Pajero is better off road than Territory, but what about Kluger and X5, are they better? We should never lose sight of what 'soft roader' means.

[Ghia351]

Maybe Toyota better save their money..oh that's right they don't make profits in Australia and yet export more cars and dominate the overall market...heck I need one of their "creative" costs accountant in my business as well...

[clixanup]

Not creative, just re-arranging the facts to get the best result - which is expressly allowed by the law.... ;)

[group 3]

Drive takes the Holden, Ford, and few other more rugged Jap 4WD's out and throws some tough terrain at them. The Ford and Holden both stumble in places. This is more of a question of reliability and duability than off road ability. Off course Pajero is better off road than Territory, but what about Kluger and X5, are they better? We should never lose sight of what 'soft roader' means.

I'm pretty sure they did take the Kluger... it didn't break down.

But I agree with the soft roader comment, most of these cars will never get off the bitumen.

[Ricko]

All car makers have advertised low prices and pictured/featured a much higher spec model before. They use key words like "From" and have small print such as "model XXX pictured".

Storm in a tea cup if you ask me. And as far as the cars not handling the rough stuff, i think anyone with half a brain would know if you want to do serious four wheel driving, you buy a serious 4WD, not a softroader.

[Danv8]

i think anyone with half a brain would know if you want to do serious four wheel driving, you buy a serious 4WD, not a softroader.[/QUOTE]

Agreed 100%

[The Griff]

I read that whole test in Drive last Friday. There was one section where the Kluger failed to negotiate some test hill near Alice Springs because the onboard software used to control the 4wd stopped it from climbing the hill. Both the Territory and Adventra (as well as the Pajero and Cruiser) went straight up the hill. The journo's made no big deal of this, which is a joke. The trip must have been funded by Toyota I reckon.

I would rather be in the Territory or the Adventra where the car will do what it is told, or at least make an attempt, rather than in the Kluger, where it dropped the ball entirely.

The whole slant on the article was not to test offroad ability, which the Kluger failed badly, but to test reliability. Reliability, though, varies from car to car, but bad design like the Kluger is inbuilt in every vehicle.

[TriShield]

I once had the opportunity to soundly thrash a new Audi allroad here and it shocked me how capable and durable it was.

Basically the dealership was building a new complex across the street in the middle of winter, and it was full of deep snow, frozen ruts, and hills. The salesman thought it would be fun, so we rodded it around hard and got it quite filthy. It was a blast. :D

I wonder how the Ford and Holden stack up?

[plonkerchops]

Didnt Wheels or Motor take 2 Adventuras throught the middle of the desert as a test ? and they were supposed to have performed brilliantly

[IIV8II]

Yep - Wheels, Jan 04. Steep Point (WA) to Sydney. The 'hard' way... Popped two tyres and cracked three rims

[the mooch]

Interesting to note Jennings refering to them as 4WD, not AWD. There is a difference as we all know. As for reliability, if a car gets you stuck in an inaccessible area, it's reliability isn't worth a damn (gee, lucky my car runs fine, stuck in that ditch, sinking in mud!). to me reliability of such a vehicle means it must be able to perform the function it was intended for without leaving you high and dry. My fishin hack runs bigger tyres, more clearance etc to perform a particular function for me. I wouldn't take any of those softroaders where I take my HOS. Nor would I attempt to take any 4WD across Australia without the essential mods required for such a venture. The Advetnra/Territory may be good tow/dirt vehicles but lets not kid ourselves; without the necessary mods they are no better off-road than a Datsun 180B
(of which I've seen a few in places that defy convention).

[Ghia351]

.... they are no better off-road than a Datsun 180B
(of which I've seen a few in places that defy convention).

Were they orange? I seem to remember a whole generation of the things orange or was that the 120Y?

[V8R]

Thats the 120Y :D

[Kirium]

I went on a Territory Drive Day in Darwin last week and came away surprised at what the Territory would take, before it gave up the ghost. (Yep, I broke a new Territory... :D ) I took it across thru some areas around hidden valley that I've taken 100 series land cruisers and Army Land Rovers across, and while it didn't make it everywhere (obviously) The competence of the Territory surprised me. Hill Decent Control adapted from Land Rover Disco's was brilliant. Ford were more than happy to organise drive days for the new Territory. Couldn't do more for the customer. 30mins after that I saw Holden and managed to put up with BS from wanker salesmen looking down their nose at me and telling me that "Adventra test drives are only approved upon purchase of an Adventra..." And an off-road test drive?? "In your dreams..."

It amazes me how some dealers are still in business with a$$holes like that...

[Phido]

The "Drive" review was extremely bias..

The crusified Ford for asking people to pay more for the Hi ride suspension over the standard territory suspension. Does not toyota, bmw, nissan, Holden, etc charge more for scuff plates and bull/nudge bar options, for headlight protectors, for whinches etc. These are options for a reason, some people don't want them or want to pay for them. Even including all this a normal territory is one of the cheapest AWD vechicals out there in its class.

While drive were quick to hit Holden and Ford, they seemed blinded by Toyotas greatness, even when they failed.

Not to mention I didn't see Nissan or Patrol (or x-trail) mentioned anywhere.. Seemed more like paid advertising that a full comparison.

No crap the "city" spec territory had some minor problems boulder climbing, etc, territory is first a excellent road car, that has some off road possibilities. Scince most spend there time on road, then should toyota be sued for false advertising saying a Land cruiser is suitable for the city, when it obviously isn't, there are many deaths every year because of it.

Drive played thin with the truth like this about the kluger...

"The Kluger's biggest off-road asset was having Landcruiser DNA in its veins. Unlike the Australian soft-roaders which rely on electronics..."

"Our Kluger refused to go up a steep test hill (the Widowmaker, near Alice Springs) which both the Territory and the Adventra were able to climb"

Toyota's Landcruiser DNA softroader couldn't even make it up a HILL!! Not at all where the other territory and Adventra did fine with no issue!


About the territory:
"We all liked how the Territory drove around town, but on a gravel road, it doesn't live up to its name" Why ? Because a rock knocked off a sensor... but by the same tolken..

" the Kluger's midships-mounted plastic fuel tank guard was shredded by the end of the trip, typical damage caused by rocks being thrown up by the wheels"

So if you fuel tank gets shredded that make you a class leader?

How about the much praised Land Cruiser:
"The Landcruiser (with 40,000km on the clock, it had had a hard life) started leaking dust badly in the latter part of the trip. A plastic cover fell out of the hole where fog lights can be fitted."

It had a hardlife? how do you know?

Jesus, better cross that off the list, its falling appart.. Oh wait..
"The Landcruiser will pound over terrain with security and aplomb while lesser vehicles shake their metaphorical teeth out"
But the land cruiser started to fall apart like all the other vechicals..

I think drive expected too much from the vechicals, they wanted fantastic economy, fantastic off road ability, they wanted the bottom and scuff plates to finish still highly polished and the car to be cleaner after the trip than when they left.

They almost completely ignored the territorys fantastic on road performance and the adventras power. They ignored interior comfort.. They might have well just stripped the interior of the Ghia or taken a low spec.

And the fact that the Patrol is concidered by a growing group to be "the class leader" yet the failed to mention it even exists.

Im sure I could take a landcruiser and a patrol out into real rough stuff and have the landcruiser break all its axels and then claim its dangerous to take it anywhere..

[HRT]

Of course "Drive" would expect more of the Australian manufactured soft roaders. Since both Ford and Holden have the veracity to market their vehicles as true outback venturers, i don't see why "Drive" does not have the right to criticise and contravene Holden and Ford's marketing ploy. Furthermore, if Holden and Ford are to take on established players like Mitsubishi, Toyota and Nissan in the 4WD stakes, they will ultimately have to release competitive products. "Drive" has indicated that this very factor is lacking from the Aussie's.

With 40,000kms on the clock, the Landcruiser did very well in the comparo. It serves to reinforce that if you want true offroad ability, the Territory and the Adventra won't cut it. Again this contradicts Ford and Holden's beliefs that their family car based hacks are an alternative to true 4WD's. I have to admit that i overestimated the Territory. Ford had so many other competitors to study, vehicles like the Mercedes ML or the BMW X5, maybe even the Toyota Prado and the Mitsubishi Pajero, yet they still couldn't manage to replicate or better the offroad ability of these vehicles.

[jsttry]

I went on a Territory Drive Day in Darwin last week and came away surprised at what the Territory would take, before it gave up the ghost. (Yep, I broke a new Territory... :D ) I took it across thru some areas around hidden valley that I've taken 100 series land cruisers and Army Land Rovers across, and while it didn't make it everywhere (obviously) The competence of the Territory surprised me. Hill Decent Control adapted from Land Rover Disco's was brilliant. Ford were more than happy to organise drive days for the new Territory. Couldn't do more for the customer. 30mins after that I saw Holden and managed to put up with BS from wanker salesmen looking down their nose at me and telling me that "Adventra test drives are only approved upon purchase of an Adventra..." And an off-road test drive?? "In your dreams..."

It amazes me how some dealers are still in business with a$$holes like that...
How did you manage to scan the Territory Drive day. Holden can't expect you to buy a car without taking it for a test drive and since it is an awd it should see a bit of dirt in that test drive.

I had the same problem when I test drove an XR6T, they said I could only take it around the block, I said bullshit, if they expected me to buy it I was going to try it out on a main road where I could vary the speeds up to 100km/hr.

[FunkyPig]

I think this whole thread, and even the poorly written 'Drive' article, prove that you simply cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you want geniune car like road manners you cannot have anything more than 'good' off road performance, and if you want excellent off road performance for very rugged terrain, you cannot have good road car manners. Simple as that, and 'Drive' should've realised that before they wrote that joke of a story.

[Kirium]

Just dropped by Frost Ford because I liked the look of the Territory, and had heard about the interior storage solutions ect. Was checking it out and a salesman came out and took me over the car (The interior functionality of the territory over an adventra should leave Holden embarrased..) then offered a road test drive, so took it for a drive for about 20-25mins. then he mentioned they were doing a drive day the following tuesday out to elizabeth river and hidden valley. he asked if i wanted to put my name down for it, and i said "sure". There were some niggles, but really, I can't see how Holden can sell a tarted-up Berlina wagon with AWD and a bit of extra ride height, and sell the entry level CX8 for more than the top of the range Territory Ghia AWD. Beats me... Stuff like wet storage big in the cargo area, laptop tray under drivers seat, 30 other storage compartents...

[FunkyPig]

I agree with you there, the Holden and Ford are after quite different markets. The Territory is obviously the better 'recreational vehicle', but then Holden did spend a lot less on R&D. I think we'll see some cheaper Adventras with V6 power later in the year though. The only reason we keep seeing them compared in the media is because they are both Aussie designed and made. Normally you would think it strange to compare a Subaru Outback and a Toyota Kluger for example.

[Merlin]

false advertising?

what about that Toyota ad which depicts some guy in a black corolla winning over the bosses daughter due to his "awesome car".

this is just as misleading......he he he

seriosly though i do have a problem with the Focus ad where u see the guy driving the focus on a rally course ect ect giving the impression that the rally focus has something to do with the road car....hmmmm maybe the the door handles?

[LSX-438]

haven't the adventura drive days made it up there yet?

[V82xist]

Of course "Drive" would expect more of the Australian manufactured soft roaders. Since both Ford and Holden have the veracity to market their vehicles as true outback venturers, i don't see why "Drive" does not have the right to criticise and contravene Holden and Ford's marketing ploy. Furthermore, if Holden and Ford are to take on established players like Mitsubishi, Toyota and Nissan in the 4WD stakes, they will ultimately have to release competitive products. "Drive" has indicated that this very factor is lacking from the Aussie's.

With 40,000kms on the clock, the Landcruiser did very well in the comparo. It serves to reinforce that if you want true offroad ability, the Territory and the Adventra won't cut it. Again this contradicts Ford and Holden's beliefs that their family car based hacks are an alternative to true 4WD's. I have to admit that i overestimated the Territory. Ford had so many other competitors to study, vehicles like the Mercedes ML or the BMW X5, maybe even the Toyota Prado and the Mitsubishi Pajero, yet they still couldn't manage to replicate or better the offroad ability of these vehicles.

Do you understand the difference between AWD/Crossover vehicle and 4WD?
I am sick to death of ignorant people raving on about how an Adventra or Territory are not as good offroad as a Landcruiser, Pajero etc. Ford and Holden are not the ones doing the comparisons but drop kick journalists like this moron from drive who probably started his career writing for Womans Weekly doing recipes.

I'm also here to tell you from experience if you go real four wheel driving you shouldn't pick a Pajero or Prado as I have seen both fail dismally in heavy going (they are weak) also the standard independant front end on the 100 series is crap with a steel bullbar and winch as it can't handle the weight and doesn't have the wheel travel of the solid axle coil front on the old 80 series. The pick for real tough of roading new 4WD is a Nissan Patrol then followed by a base model 100 series Landcruiser (no independant front) then Troopy with the coil front end.

I have been on an Adventra drive day and I think it is an excellent vehicle for what it was designed and I can imagine the Ford would be much the same, so don't knock Aussie made gear just for the sake of it even though it seems fashionable at the moment.

</end of rant>

[SSbaby]

Do you understand the difference between AWD/Crossover vehicle and 4WD?
I am sick to death of ignorant people raving on about how an Adventra or Territory are not as good offroad as a Landcruiser, Pajero etc. Ford and Holden are not the ones doing the comparisons but drop kick journalists like this moron from drive who probably started his career writing for Womans Weekly doing recipes.

I'm also here to tell you from experience if you go real four wheel driving you shouldn't pick a Pajero or Prado as I have seen both fail dismally in heavy going (they are weak) also the standard independant front end on the 100 series is crap with a steel bullbar and winch as it can't handle the weight and doesn't have the wheel travel of the solid axle coil front on the old 80 series. The pick for real tough of roading new 4WD is a Nissan Patrol then followed by a base model 100 series Landcruiser (no independant front) then Troopy with the coil front end.

I have been on an Adventra drive day and I think it is an excellent vehicle for what it was designed and I can imagine the Ford would be much the same, so don't knock Aussie made gear just for the sake of it even though it seems fashionable at the moment.

</end of rant>

Go easy on the school kid, will ya? He doesn't have a licence, yet! :D

[Ricko]

Do you understand the difference between AWD/Crossover vehicle and 4WD?
I am sick to death of ignorant people raving on about how an Adventra or Territory are not as good offroad as a Landcruiser, Pajero etc. Ford and Holden are not the ones doing the comparisons but drop kick journalists like this moron from drive who probably started his career writing for Womans Weekly doing recipes.

I'm also here to tell you from experience if you go real four wheel driving you shouldn't pick a Pajero or Prado as I have seen both fail dismally in heavy going (they are weak) also the standard independant front end on the 100 series is crap with a steel bullbar and winch as it can't handle the weight and doesn't have the wheel travel of the solid axle coil front on the old 80 series. The pick for real tough of roading new 4WD is a Nissan Patrol then followed by a base model 100 series Landcruiser (no independant front) then Troopy with the coil front end.

I have been on an Adventra drive day and I think it is an excellent vehicle for what it was designed and I can imagine the Ford would be much the same, so don't knock Aussie made gear just for the sake of it even though it seems fashionable at the moment.

</end of rant>

But i think his, and Drives point is, both manufacturers are trying to market the cars as being capable to do things they cant. But in their defense a car pictured driving down the freeway chock a block with kids and associated paraphernalia with a voice over saying

"You'll never venture off the bitumen, but extra fuel costs, increased maintenance costs and poorer handling are small sacrifices to pay for 3 extra instrument gauges, 72 storage pockets, 18 cup holders and the image that comes with a new *********". :D

[LSX-438]

at the adventura drive days in Sydney they went to some trouble to explain what a soft roader should - and shouldnt - do. perhaps the beef is with the advertising agency? if you serious about off roading i'm sure you'll do extra research beyond the ads.. but yeah in the end, they are selling a somewhat irrelevant marketing concept versus a real world requirement (perhaps) like a lot of aspirational or performance cars too.

[SSbaby]

I was in Alpine country in Vic this weekend...I saw a few Adventuras and Territorys there. Owners will find good use for the aforementioned vehicles irrespective of Drive's biased (IMHO) views.

[FunkyPig]

You'll never venture off the bitumen, but extra fuel costs, increased maintenance costs and poorer handling are small sacrifices to pay for 3 extra instrument gauges, 72 storage pockets, 18 cup holders and the image that comes with a new *********". :D
At the end of the day this is so true! Both these cars have a 'cool off road image', but are pretty pointless compared to a similarly equipped AWD Commodore or Falcon (if they existed).

[Ricko]

At the end of the day this is so true! Both these cars have a 'cool off road image', but are pretty pointless compared to a similarly equipped AWD Commodore or Falcon (if they existed).

I agree, but the Subaru Outback still sells despite only being jacked up a little with wheel flares and tyres that hint towards going on a dirt road at best. It will be interesting to see how the sales pan out if the range would extend to Wagon, AWD wagon (standard ride hight etc), and Adventra for example. i personally like the idea of AWD grip for handling/safety.

[Merlin]

"You'll never venture off the bitumen, but extra fuel costs, increased maintenance costs and poorer handling are small sacrifices to pay for 3 extra instrument gauges, 72 storage pockets, 18 cup holders and the image that comes with a new *********". :D

LOL! The anti 4WD lobby needs your services!