Adelaide Utes Dyno Day

[ls1learner]

Went down to the adelaide utes dyno day at Bill Towler auto today. I was a bit surprised to see the low power figures accross the board. LS1 utes with full exhausts were only doing around 230hp, though there were some exceptions. A very nice white VY II Ute (ROGUE plates) with a mafless tune did 279hp, while a dirty red VY II Ute (no special plates) with the maf still in place did 285hp. I heard there was also a blown VY tonner that did 360 odd but I missed it.
From what I've read on these forums, I thought mafless tunes were supposed to be the bees knees? Either way, these two machines sounded f#$%ing awesome at full tilt!

LL.

[DFYANT]

The dirty red VY was 'CHEFFY', and we were all quite supprised with that result. There was a 1 tonner there and to my best recollection he produced 359rwhp. As for the low readings, i think you will find this to be the new standard of Shoot outs, with all vehicles strapped to the DYNO, and assessed under the same conditions, ie intake temp's, ramp speed, atmospheric conditions etc.

Pretty good day if you ask me, i was up after ROGUE with my Black VU SS. Bare in mind that my ute has not been edited and the only MODS are 2 1/2 inch REDBACK CAT back exhaust, GTS MAF Pipe, slightly modified air intake and a K&N filter, i managed to produce 261rwhp. Don't ask how i'm still not sure myself !

[Martin_D]

Its all in the strapping :)
If you set up the ratchets on the tie downs just right, you can lose 10rwkw for each click of the strap. Tricks for new players :)
Diggers One Tonner makes more rwkw than mine, and mine ran 115mph on the strip...yet he has 260rwkw? Using that slide rule, you boys should all be running 112 - 113mph on the strip from your bolt on cars. Cant wait to see it!

[Plums]

Yeah this makes sense. Strap a Mighty boy on, a couple of "clicks of the straps" and bingo, 0 rwkw's. That may be a bit harsh but it seems to make sense to me using your "slide rule".

As for CHEFFY's Ute, it's great to see a "MAF wagon" (that's for you Ritchie) putting out some good Hergatrons.
Perhaps it wasn't ROGUE that needed driving lessons on our "cruise day", maybe he just needed more power. (No offence to you or your machine Damo)

Plums...

[Martin_D]

That may be a bit harsh but it seems to make sense to me using your "slide rule".

So...you admit the dyno figures arent accurate? ??
Mph at the track lads, best indicator in the world. Try it sometime, sure beats bench racing on dynos!

[Plums]

Yes I agree, dynos can be very inaccurate. There is one fact staring us in the face though. These cars were measured on the same dyno, same day same conditions and the same people were setting them up, I don't believe it gets any fairer than that.

Your second point is 100% correct, weight shifting HP doesn't lie, it's the great equaliser, where the bullshit stops, blah blah blah. Even an average launch will only skew the terminal speed by a few MPH. I'm not exactly sure how your "slide rule" gets these "bolt-on cars" to 112mph though, can you run through the math with me?

Plums...

[cheffy]

I must say I was pretty happy with the results. I might take it to the track in august/sept ( when the tax returns come in......)

As for it being dirty, well I like to have fun on the way home and if that invol ves a dirt road well......
:confused:

[DFYANT]

Street Tuna, if i'm correct this is Marty, the LS1 Guru, or so i'm told. Can you tell me why my ute pushed out a measly 14rwkw less than Damo, and my car hasn't been edited and it doesn't have extractors ???
I'm still scratching my head, i'm starting to think that it may have been edited, and if so is there any way you can tell if i bring it down to you ???

[Plums]

This "measly 14 kw difference" is why you were so close to Damo when you were "accelerating from traffic lights". Good job dude...

[cheffy]

I reckon Dfyant must be the happiest of us all. it was a great result for a "stock car'

how many K's has it done though..... (Maybe its well run in??)

[Martin_D]

Street Tuna, if i'm correct this is Marty, the LS1 Guru, or so i'm told. Can you tell me why my ute pushed out a measly 14rwkw less than Damo, and my car hasn't been edited and it doesn't have extractors ???
I'm still scratching my head, i'm starting to think that it may have been edited, and if so is there any way you can tell if i bring it down to you ???

Of course I can tell if its been edited
Give me the rego number and I can tell you now
You boys really need to get a few time cards before you get too ****y. You know what they say about all talk, no action.....
If you come though bring Plums, and I will show him how I can make your stock power read +/- 20rwkw or so all depending how tight the straps are set. Straps on bolt on LS1s......what next....Ballistic blankets over the transmission?

[Plums]

Straps on bolt on LS1s......what next....Ballistic blankets over the transmission?

The Tyres should remain in contact with the rear rollers at all times. This is not possible if the vehicle isn't strapped down, (unless it's a stock Excel).

[Martin_D]

Errr Plums I dont know what you do for a living mate, and no offence, but I was the first DD trained PC dyno operator in this state, and I can tell you that what you have said is totally incorrect. The rear roller is nothing more than a dead axle mate, doesnt matter what you do to it

[Plums]

I know the rear rollers are only passive. Give Frank at Dyno Dynamics a call, I think you'll be surprised....

[Martin_D]

Well like I said I use these things everyday. Strapping too tight and holding the car into the back roller is the most surefire way of encouraging wheelspin and stopping a correct power reading. Driving or not driving the rear roller has no physical difference on the power output. Note Dyno Dynamics themselves now use a pneumatic strapping system that pulls the car down squarely into the bed to alleviate this problem

[Plums]

Strapping too tight and holding the car into the back roller is the most surefire way of encouraging wheelspin and stopping a correct power reading. Driving or not driving the rear roller has no physical difference on the power output.

I understand and acknowledge the fact that you use these every day.
Yes, strapping the car too tightly to the rear rollers will certainly encourage wheelspin, but the car should not be pulled rearwards at all. Everything being equal, if it's strapped down correctly (down being the operative word) the tightness of the straps makes bugger all difference.
As for driving or not driving the rear roller, give Frank at DD a call, they are working on something that you may find interesting.....

Plums...

[naff]

When Rogue had his ute edited he had a dyno read out of 255rwkw, and at the show he got 208rwkw's!
What ya sayin is that he lost 47 rwkw's by strapping it down wrong?
I'm not trying to be smart here, just interested in the results thats all.
I know the drags is the best way to find out how much grunt ya got but dyno figure's are intersting to know as well.
I know ya different dyno's read different power readings but 47 kw's is a fair bit considering considering that they were both done in shoot out mode which i thought was supposed to cut out the doctoring of power figures!

Thanx...Naff

[Martin_D]

I see your point Naff, but then we also see a supercharged car make nearly 40rwkw less than any other example of its kind in the country. Ive seen this car dynoed twice, on two different dynos, in two different physical locations. Once where it made 419rwhp Street Commodores Dyno Day (Shootout), and another time, on another day, on a totally different dyno where it went 414rwhp (Shootout).

Now, this car, with a standard converter, can burn the tyres in a second gear roll on, all the way to 6500rpm, yet its only fractionally above a bolt on car on this dyno with 360rwhp? Its all very curious really isnt it! Which is why, if the guys on this forum that are making the power claims are up to it, I will lay down a challenge.

AIR, next street meet. Rogues car vs Cheffy vs Plums, in a radial street tyred bolt on shootout. The offer is open to ClubVX as well since he seems to think hes quicker. Best timecard for the day. Only 'bolt on' mods allowed. If Rogue doesnt want to do the steering, Im happy.

Nothing like a good run down the track to blow the smoke away from all those mirrors kids!

[Plums]

ST, my car isn't in the same league as these two, (my only mods are extractors and a tune, still have the standard cat-back).
That said, I would be happy to steer CHEFFY's Ute down the strip, if he'll let me. To reduce the variables though, I have a set of M&H 235 DOT approved tyres that will fit his Ute. Get a set of DOT approved tyres (treaded slicks) for ROGUE's Ute and we are in business. This is starting to sound like fun and by the way, I don't care if we win or lose, it's how we play the game.
I'm guessing we are purely looking at MPH and not ET?

We'll set a date, Wed 11 Aug. (I'm away on a trip till 9 Aug)

Hope to see you there....

Plums.

[ROGUE]

I'm in.

Happy to do steering, but need some yoda-like teaching first. I've never done the 1/4 before.

And August is too late. Will be in Darwin by then for a course for work...

Whens the next AIR meet? Lets do it then!

What's the prize? GENX2 kit? :lol: :cool:

[chops]

Next meet, Sunday 4th of July.

www.adelaideraceway.net

See you all there!

[cheffy]

I'll be there on wednesday the 11th and I will drive my own ute with a set of dot approved tyres (courtesy of Plums) to standardise it shall we all have the same springs and the same diff ratio????

I am more than happy to have my car compared to rogues and clubvx but I feel that we should alleviate the differences in the chassis setups...

[VXEXEC350]

I was planning on being there that night anyway. I have never had a run at the track before, I just want to see what she can do. See you there.

There is a meet on the 14th of July. Can we make it then?

[Martin_D]

It would make sense to follow the rules of engagement already established, and proven to work well, on this forum from the LS1 Drag Nationals. They are, for bolt on cars like these as follows -

"This category is designed for the majority of LS1 street cars with a separate classification given to the different transmission types (A4 & M6). All cars entering this category are to use legal street tyres only. Rear tyres are to be no wider than 265mm and must be radial type street tyres only. Only legal 'street' tyres are permitted to enter. Hybrid, dual purpose DOT treaded slicks of any manufacture will not be permitted in this particular class. (The intention is set and discretion will be left to the state representatives during scrutineering)."

If you want to make it a slick tyre matchup though, its fine by me.
Obviously fastest ET is the winner

[Martin_D]

to standardise it shall we all have the same springs and the same diff ratio????

Well its a thought. No one was standardising Rogue though when he went up against Richie with 3.9s.....vs his 3.45s. Put whatever diff you want in the thing.

[DFYANT]

I don't give 2 hoots when it's on, i'll have the uterus there maybe with a couple of little extras and we'll see who has the most power. Maybe that will eleviate this neccessity to campare knob sizes. :lol:

[cheffy]

I think the dyno was reading low but, all the results are comparable because it wass the same dyno, same people, same acreddited mode and the results although they are lower than expected, are relative (within 1-2kw) for heatsoak etc.

I would love to make the 4th of july even with street tyres, but unfortunately I have a major family reunion to go to.

However the 11th of august is good to go.....

willow your car will be interesting.

As for that street tyre rule, shall we put a treadwear rating on the tyre or not. I've just been through this ruling for circuit racing and we couldn't come up with a decent ruling ( which the rule tuna put up isn't) and then we'll go...
otherwise, we could all use oe 17'' potenza's..
(and I can provide 2 for rogue)

[Martin_D]

Boys, boys, boys. Bring cars, bring wagers, bring whatever you want to the track. Plums makes the claim that Rogue needs more power, come show us how its done. Easy huh?

Anyone that wants to see Rogues power reading, I will have his car in on the dyno, Friday morning at Morpowa around 11ish. Shootout dyno. Any of the Three Musketeers can bring their cars along, and I will happily sit you in the seat beside me while I run Rogues, then your cars, back to back.

However, the track is the greatest equaliser. No favourites, no smoke, no mirrors.
August 11 would be good for me, as I will have my car running for that.

[DFYANT]

I spoke to you yesterday marty, and i'll be there with ROGUE, but only so i can get a comparable dyno run, i'm sick of him rubbing his in face !!

[cheffy]

I'll try and make it however, 11 on a friday is F*#king close to lunchtime at the shop.
hopefully though we'll see you there.

[Wazz_ChevLS1]

I now hate work and want to go watch the utes on the Dyno....... damn the need for money to live/buy car parts. :lol:

I'm up for putting the car down the track on the 11th of Aug as well so count me in.

After the dyno readout on the weekend :( :cussing: I think I might have no choice but to put it down the track at some stage to see what it can do. Can't have a Dyno saying its still at standard power........ thats just not on as I seem to have wasted my cash if it is. :eek:

Oh to have lots of money........ guess I'll just have to save for longer and get the thing blown :burnout: I'll be saving for a while though. :bash:

[ROGUE]

Just so you all know...

I'm running 235/40/18 Falkens, with about 60% tread.
3.46 diff
Kings superlows
Adjustable rear camber kit.

That's what i drive it with every day, that's what i'll be using when i'm running down the strip, and on the dyno. Too much farkin around if i start changing tyres and shit.

Although, i'm after a 3:73 diff if anyone has a spare one laying around :D

[cheffy]

All parts and panels at Lonsdale do..
out of a F*#ked maloo. (Thought about it for a while)

[ROGUE]

got any idea of what price they're looking for?

[cheffy]

yes and it wasn't to pretty, $950....

[naff]

Friday morning 11o'clock at morpowa, that could be dooable!
Even though i will rock up in my ......FORD!

[Martin_D]

Ive got a diff to put in your car when it runs at the track Rogue.

[Martin_D]

For all those that are in some debate about the dyno and its readings, I suggest you get stuck into this thread. All of the answers are there -
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=308646#post308646

[ROGUE]

Ive got a diff to put in your car when it runs at the track Rogue.

(in a southern mississippi drawl...)

why thankyou sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar :lol:

[Martin_D]

Ok, Update on this one.
Didnt get to see either Plums or Cheffy.....they didnt take up my offer.

However, DFYNT certainly did.

Showed him exactly, and repeatably how to run an LS1 on the dyno unstrapped. Was going to be a real showoff and try it without the chocks but thought better of it.
I then stepped DFYNT through the setup of the Shootout software and he was 100% happy that the weather station matched the atmo settings.
ROGUE 8 had three back to back runs, 244rwkw, 244rwkw, 243.7rwkw
DFYNT I only gave one run, 204rwkw
No wheelspin, no overzealous strapping, nothing of the type.

Now, all of a sudden there was a 53rwhp difference between these two cars.....as there should be when you consider the different modifications.

Then we gave DFYNTs ride a Mafless tune, and he got a repeatable 231rwkw (something like that). Everyone left happy, safe in the knowledge that dynos can indeed be run without strapping and wedging of the suspension, and just maybe, when it comes to running dynos and tuning cars that experience indeed does count for something.

[cheffy]

I couldnt make it due to bussiness reasons and plums is in sydney on holiday. On saturday My car was used as a dyno mule at both Bill towlers and at Kings park Automotive and also at West torrens dyno centre...........

Now the results were quite interesting and i think dyno dynamics will be issuing a billeton soon regarding the results..

In essence at all dyno centres even whilst strapped don hard, the video showed that my car left the rear roller..

DD then told us to tether the car so as to stop it moving off the rear roller. the results showed a drop in power of around 10-13 rwkw....

[Martin_D]

Yeah, great, interesting results.
However that still does nothing to explain the 53rwhp difference between Rogue 8 and DFYNT........

[ls1learner]

Searching through the forums I saw a dyno sheet for the rogue ute which read 255 kw but now it only has 244 kw. What happened to the other 11 kw?
Not trying to be a smartarse but I would have thought that on your dyno it should be back up to 255 kw.

[Martin_D]

Not trying to be a smartarse but I would have thought that on your dyno it should be back up to 255 kw.

Well, if you werent trying to be a smartarse, and could read, you would notice that the 255rwkw was in fact done on a different dyno, at a different place, on a different day.

Do the sums learner, that dyno only had a 4.5% variance compared to Fridays readings. The dyno that started this whole discussion, a 15% variance.

[SS Enforcer]

I was at Sams one day and he showed me how to lose 25 rwhp on a dyno run just by moving the front wheels chocks 1". :eek:

He did it on mine with back to back runs and dropped the 25rwhp like he said , as an experiment to show me how easy it is to manipulate dyno figures.

He also said it was the same on a DD dyno and you could just as easily manipulate the result with extra strapping and or dodgy placement of wheelchocks.

I guess an unscrupulous operator could even use it to commit a fraud by claiming that a produced dyno figure actually suggests that their product does in fact produce an improvement.
It probably could be used to illustrate that in their opinion an oppositions product is inferior to their own.
Finally a situation may arrise where someone belives that a particular way of doing something is better even though the truth is that it is just easier, then to show this a simple experiment may be done in full view of spectators to champion that cause.

I am not suggesting that anyone on these forums would seek to decieve anyone, sometimes I just find things rather curious.

cheers.

[rad300]

[QUOTE=SS Enforcer]

I guess an unscrupulous operator could even use it to commit a fraud by claiming that a produced dyno figure actually suggests that their product does in fact produce an improvement.
It probably could be used to illustrate that in their opinion an oppositions product is inferior to their own.
Finally a situation may arrise where someone belives that a particular way of doing something is better even though the truth is that it is just easier, then to show this a simple experiment may be done in full view of spectators to champion that cause.



yeh i tend to agree i was at a resent dyno day i saw a gto with bolt on's only make 263rwkw the owner thought it was good for 238rwkw seeing that he had resently done the mod's, so you may ask well the mod's were done at the same place as the dyno day using the same dyno good advertising for that workshop especially when a stock gts coup went on straight after and made 244rwkw.

[Martin_D]

UPDATE:
ROGUE 8 MAKES 248rwkw!!!! (332rwhp)
Tested yesterday afternoon on a BRAND NEW DYNOLOG chassis dyno, operated by forum user and dynamometer designer "awddynotodd". Independent dyno (same brand as Sams), Independent operator (Todd), I wasnt even there.....but, yes, it WAS strapped down :)

Starts to make that that 208rwkw reading look stranger, and stranger.....

[naff]

On the last run with ROGUE's car at the auto salon they undid the straps and and them hanging lose, it picked up 15kw or so from the run before it.

[Martin_D]

It was up to the operator how he operated it. I wasnt there to see it. However, from what I have seen Todd is a smart bugger that knows his dynos!

[Gareth@Willall]

Are the people who said they were going to the drags on the 11th of August still going to be taking there cars there (if it isnt raining!!) Just interested too see how many LS1's will be there.

Cheers,

Gareth

[cams290]

Went to a dyno/demo day at APS last Saturday with FF. Rob the dyno guy there told us about the correct way of strapping the car vertically to the rollers and gave us a demo on Big Micks phase 2 XR6T. Strapped on properly it was showing 270rwkw, and when they loosened the straps and let it climb up on the front roller it was showing 279 rwkw, reasonably big difference for someone not in the know, would think they were getting more kw's than they really are.

[cheffy]

The 11th of August drags i was reliably informed today has been canned due to poor weather.. I don't know how she can see that far into the future though....

[Gareth@Willall]

The 11th of August drags i was reliably informed today has been canned due to poor weather.. I don't know how she can see that far into the future though....


Well they better bloody not!! I went last wednesday meet and got rained out then the next one was canned (lucky i phoned) and it never rained anyways!! I think i may be calling them tomorrow!

[Martin_D]

Hold your horses guys. Was out there today doing some drift stuff, and I can tell you the place is underwater. There is no way they could run it next Wednesday

[HRT Stroker]

I bet the infield looks like a small lake!

[Gareth@Willall]

Hold your horses guys. Was out there today doing some drift stuff, and I can tell you the place is underwater. There is no way they could run it next Wednesday

Get the CFS in to drain it!! ;) We might be blessed with some nicer weather that will dry it out enough.

[cheffy]

Ive spun into that lake before.... next time I'll take a fishing rods..