Liberty vs. XR6T

[Swordie]

I was having a chat with Subaru Liberty driver who is driving a XR6T for a couple of weeks and he said the Subaru handles much better than the Ford. I have not driven a Liberty so I would not know. In the wet l would assume the Subaru is much better, in the dry things much closer.

What do people think, is there much of difference between the cars in handling, especially on a dry surfaced road ?

[SSbaby]

The XR6T is one of the best ride/handling cars of its type in the world (well, this side of a BMW/Merc). The Liberty has AWD. Different cars really. You want grunt or the 'security' of AWD safety?

[clixanup]

For starters, the Subaru is a smaller car. The fact that it doesn't have to move so much bulk around will make it a better handler alone. Then you have to add the Suby's standard AWD into the mix. AWD in a car that size will always outhandle a bigger 2WD car.

In a straight line competition, well, that's another story....

[RICHO]

Having looked at and test driven a Liberty GT recently I to say it's pretty hard to compare the two from a handling persepctive because the drive so differently.

The only thing I did notice was that at 6'4" the Liberty was just too bloody small for me!! The car I drove had a sunroof, so in a safe seating position relative to the wheel my head rubbed against the roof, the drivers seat didn't go back far enough for my long legs and with the seat fully back the car became a 2+2 and not a 4/5 seater because not even a 5 year old could have fitted in the gap behind the drivers seat.

Great car no doubt but not one I could ever buy for these reasons. Not sexy reasons I know, but I have to fit in car before it's handling even becomes a consideration.

Cheers

[Dacious]

Smaller and lighter = more agile - just like a rover in football. Car for car, with expert drivers in both a good handling small car in general will beat the laptimes of a good handling big car on a tight circuit, if they have similar power-weight. It just is easier to change directions and less stress on tyres and suspensions provided the cars are state-of-the-art for tyres, wheels and steering config.

The difficulty is in a race it'll be coming from behind after the dragrace to the first turn and have to pull a big enough gap on the corners to not be gobbled up in the straights. It's why Minis once won Bathurst - over the top of the mountain with better corner speed and braking they could gather up the bigger cars, which then didn't have the brakes, suspension or tyres to put their power advantage to the ground.

The quickest vehicle around many circuits in Australia is a Superkart - a 250cc bike 80 hp GP motor in a walking frame with wheels. Top speed is not that fast, but they just don't need to slow down as much for corners and steer like a billycart, not to mention weigh about as much as the driver giving a fantastic power:weight ration like a motorcycle, but grip like a car on slicks.

In the case of the Liberty vs XR6, the XR6 still (like most front engine-rear drivers) has probably a 60:40 weight distribution. To attack corners you need to brake early and hard, apex early and turn it through the second part of the turn on oversteer. If you brake really late, you risk understeering and lose time when you miss the apex and run wide. Changing direction is more ponderous in the heavier vehicle. In the wet, this disadvantage grows greater.

The Scooby driver can also do that (early apex), but he can also choose to brake later having a smaller stopping distance and lower, easier to judge/control weight, apex later and block the XR6 line while maintaining a high corner speed, then use the AWD to pull the car through the turn instead of plow-steering the front like the Falcon if it apexes late. As he likely has superior traction due to weight distribution (and a lot less weight) he can get the power down and be gone while you're still getting the XR6 pointed down the straight and waiting to pull the pin. As the Liberty turbo is not much down on straightline speed the XR6 needs long straights to pull that gap back and get in front. Then the Scooby just pulls the same stunt next turn. Come to some twisties and he's gone with a superior line-changing ability and higher corner speed.

It is not the Falcon is bad handling, and in high-speed sweepers may even be preferred, AWD being a major drag on the driveline at speed and having most benefit in tighter corners. Somewhere like Phiilip Island or Bathurst is maybe more like XR6 territory, Winton or Mallala the Scooby should own.

[seldo]

Dacious: What else can a man say?

[SSJB]

Ahhhh I seee. Liberty there = Legacy here.
looking at the Subaru AU site I see Liberty is 180kw torque 310.. same as 2005 US model.
Legacy comes jap spec here at 206kw and 343 torque. interesting that we get an up spec model of something like that. Must be the Possum effect I suppose. Must get a drive of one sometime.

[Spectrum]

Ahhhh I seee. Liberty there = Legacy here.
looking at the Subaru AU site I see Liberty is 180kw torque 310.. same as 2005 US model.
Legacy comes jap spec here at 206kw and 343 torque. interesting that we get an up spec model of something like that. Must be the Possum effect I suppose. Must get a drive of one sometime.
I read somewhere it's the same with the EVO8: the US version is de-powered way lower than the few I've seen here, because of some regulations...

[SSbaby]

Dacious,

Is there a different driving technique I could use to negotiate those 40 - 50 km/h residential roads... perhaps avoid the apexes?
:lol:

[SSJB]

Ref the Evo( I'm not Darth Vader therefore they don't interest me as a car :lol: ) There is an interesting thing happening in that the evo 8 now has a dealer endorsed re chipping/reprogramming available. add 3k or so to the purchase price for X extra kw.( can't remember what the article quoted)

Lets hope it starts a trend where manufacturers back their products when upgraded. without all this warranty agro I mean.

[Dacious]

Dacious,

Is there a different driving technique I could use to negotiate those 40 - 50 km/h residential roads... perhaps avoid the apexes?
:lol:


Absolutely - clout the kerbs on the way in and out. I own shares in alloy wheel companies and wheel aligners......

Seriously, for a demo on smaller vehicle vs big vehicle handling you need go no further than MotoGP - watch the 125s going three abreast and trading places in corners where the 1000cc MotoGP bikes it's one vehicle wide. Double the weight, but 4 times the HP = only a few seconds difference in laptimes at most circuits - the fastest 250km/h 125s usually would have qualified on the third or fourth row of MotoGP, and the 280 km/h 250s usually middle of the second. On really fast circuits they are comparatively slower, only because the big bikes do 340km/h.

Despite the skinnier tyres the 125s corner faster and brake later than the 250s which are quicker in corners than the 1000cc MotoGP bikes.

It's just plain physics - for any given level of suspension/tyre/steering technology and presuming competent operators a lighter weight with lower CofG is easier to turn, changes direction quicker and has a higher grip limit.

[BA Turbo]

I own an XR6T and have spent some time, not heaps, in the Urabus.

You can feel that the Ford is a 1700kg car when it is driven back to back with the smaller Suby. Other than that, AWD is safe blah blah, etc etc, but I still wouldn't have one. Not very exciting to drive at all. (Although one of the one's I drove was dealer demo car. It was exciting to cut three full throttle laps of a roundabout with the salesman hanging on for dear life :D )

[Mongy]

I have driven both. Yes, I would say around town the Liberty would win, they drive very nicely, but on the open road WOT I would want the Ford. The Liberties are very nimble and steer well, particularly in the wet but I think the Ford has the advantage in sweepers and twisty bits when stretching the legs. When you stick the foot down in the Liberty (non turbo small engine jobby) it is like, yeh well, I have commanded you to move, are you gunna? :lol: I drove a relatives wagon and they are not very inspiring in the get up and go department, and they sound like a Kombi wagon!

[Evil LS1]

Sheesh, the stock liberty GT is very soft and the A4 dulls it immensely. Given a full suspension makeover for both cars, the liberty will trounce the Falcon anywhere. Heck, a well sorted Corolla will kill a commy or ford on the twisties. They are fat pigs and you can't get that much weight to change direction quickly. No argument that they are good for their size, but they will never compete with a sorted lighter car.

And let's not compare an EVO VIII to anything HSV or FPV have let alone a liberty.

[RICHO]

Don't see why comparisons with an EVO VIII can't be made

Yes, it's a car with pedigree and on a tight windy piece of road (or racetrack) it is a car that will outperform just about any V8 you care to mention. An altogther fantastic bit of kit.

But, on a more open piece of road or a flowing racetrack there are HSV products that will not only challenge but beat an EVO.

Very different cars, that are at their best in very different environments and on that basis alone you could argue that shouldn't be compared, but if you were indicating that they were superior from a performance perspective......

In this years GT Performance series, the best placed HSV GTS is ahead of the best performing EVOIII, so not only is it fair to compare them, they actually race against one another. And at this stage of the season, it isn't the EVOIII that has the points.

[Daz 27]

I own a Subaru Liberty RX, if power is not a factor then the Subaru outhandles the Ford XR Falcons everytime, I also own a BA XR8 so i am speaking from experience. If the japs woke upto themselves & fitted a turbo 3.0 boxer 6 to the Liberty then they'd kill everything on the road, it would out handle & out accelerate most everyday stuff, but it'd still be too small for some guys.

[onezero]

Handling is all well and good - but we all know the Ford will kill the Liberty in the category that really matters; burnouts.

[SV8VY]

I haven't driven either of them but have spoken with a few drivers of both vehicles.
I was speaking with a women at Eastern Creek last Sunday that has a Liberty and she hates it.Her husband upgraded it for her from owning a WRX.They are considering going back to the rex.
She says she doesn't really like the look or feel of it and body rolls around corners.
I personally would buy the Ford if it was a choice as there is great potential for it and the seats are bigger with more room for the family.
Drivers are a big factor in cornering:
My car was lapping many "big " cars at the recent drive day meet, Evan a 220 rkw wrx around corners and a Porsche 928!

[Thumper]

My daughter has a Legacy GT, twin Turbo it handles great, came with Koni adjustable suspension from Japan. The thing that impresses me about Subarus, is big guys like me can drive them. Usually ricer cars fit around me, not me in them!
By the way - can anyone tell me why Aussie is the only country which calls the Legacy a Liberty?

[Aus8]

I would also go the XR6T with a APS kit. Have driven one and loved it!

[Daz 27]

By the way - can anyone tell me why Aussie is the only country which calls the Legacy a Liberty?
something to do with the ANZAC's.

[AndrewCowley]

I thought the story is that Mitsubishi Australia have rights to the name Legacy in this country.

[V8R]

DAz27 has hit the nail on the head, Legacy (the ANZAC thingo) has the sole use of the name in australia, hence, soobie had to call the Legacy a Liberty over here.

[SSJB]

So why has it been short changed on the power do you know?

[V8R]

sorry, that much i dont know :(

[Old Kiwi]

I know.

The distributors are afraid of warranty claims :rolleyes:

They will use the excuse of the petrol being no good, but thats bullshit, they just want to save some cash. Shame really, the Subie's are good cars

[rednut99]

What model liberty was it? If it was a GT or any of the Turbo offerings I could proberbly let him have that one.

But I dissagree that the liberty is better (absolute). I found the new Liberty to push wide around tight corners and with its little power and toqrue it didn't exactly leap out of bends.

I now own an XR6 Turbo ute and with leaf springs you can't really compare, but I have no trouble holding very hig speeds round SMOOTH bends, and there always oodles of torque just waiting to launch you out of the apex.

In a bumpy situation ( most roads ) then the ute lags way behind, it skips and jumps offline, lots of fun to drive, but not fast.

Buy I think you all know that I'd rather have the ute than Grandads liberty thankyou very much.

EDIT: Some people brag about handling, and buy a car that does that well. I prefer to brag about a cars ability to be a chick magnet, so I bought a black one! It works a treat! :lol:

[Old Kiwi]

If the japs woke upto themselves & fitted a turbo 3.0 boxer 6 to the Liberty then they'd kill everything on the road, it would out handle & out accelerate most everyday stuff, but it'd still be too small for some guys.

Cant happen; or more so, its not worth the investment as the 2ltr turbo already hits the Japanese 205kw max power rule :(

[seldo]

Cant happen; or more so, its not worth the investment as the 2ltr turbo already hits the Japanese 205kw max power rule :(
Yes, but so do lots of other cars that seem to have amazing performance from only ..umm...205kw... Don't they already have the 2.5 turbo in the US?

[Daz 27]

Cant happen; or more so, its not worth the investment as the 2ltr turbo already hits the Japanese 205kw max power rule :(
the rule is virtually a myth these days & very soon the stated power of Jap performance cars will jump substantially.

[SSJB]

I fronted up and took a manual Legacy for a drive today. This is the nz / jap spec 206 kw car.
its fly by wire so throttle response is pretty spectacular . Its a bit of a neck snapper.. they say the torque comes in at 2400 rpm. I'm sure it does but I found it most impressive between 3 and 4000 but breathless above that. ie hardly worth revving it out. Short shifting it seemed like the best way to get places to me.
Handling as expected seems good. I have a local roundabout I'm used to in particular. I had a couple of shots at it full gas. Just steer the thing through it. The old Holtang would have been seriously crossed up even at the slower attempt so I have to give it some respect there.
I came away thinking, Yes... this is a good car with good power and its probably the fastest way to get from a to b in city streets but it's the same old story... no personality... no real visceral thrill from it. No sound.
Don't get me wrong. I respect it. Its well sorted but It doesn't grab me in manual anyway. I can't say I'd even bother driving an au spec 180 kw car.
I'll take an auto one for a drive.. Its supposed to be a good box.

[Swordie]

My take on this is the an XR6T would not be far behind a Liberity on tight dry stuff. On sweepers the XR6T could be a head.

[Daz 27]

in the tight stuff, wet or dry, the XR6T won't get anywhere near the Liberty, but anything less than tight & the Liberty is a slug.