Armstrong caught / Winding back odometers

[markone2]

Today's Courier mail. page one......
A Brisbane Motor Dealer has admitted winding back the odometers of new cars.....
Mr Armstrong sought legal advise and hired a communications specialist before telling the Courier Mail the claims were true...
Mr Armstrong said his service staff told him winding back had been done on new cars prevously. :eek:


http://www.ssute.com/ls1/armstrong10193.jpg

[XLR8 V8]

"Isn't he a darl" ???
I didn't know my old Aunt Mavis had gone into car sales? :lol:

"It was impossible to turn back once they reach 100km"
So we just order in a new cluster and wind it forward to less k's than the vehicle actually has. :rolleyes:

In this day and age, how stupid are these people that they don't realise that this practice is ILLEGAL. And only one person at the dealership was doing it? Yeah right!

[Mongy]

Good grief, I'm glad I brought mine elsewhere. Makes you wonder how many they have done, and were they under 100klm? :bash: You can't even trust your dealer, let alone the used car yards.

[markone2]

"Isn't he a darl" ???
I
"It was impossible to turn back once they reach 100km"
So we just order in a new cluster and wind it forward to less k's than the vehicle actually has. :rolleyes:

!


In truth it is much easier than that ..........regardless of K's travelled

[Jonesy]

Winding back odo's on 2nd hand vehicles is obviously a no-no, but where do dealers stand as far as winding them back on vehicles not delivered ? I suppose they have grounds that the vehicle is still there property and becuase it's not delivered they can carry out this procedure.

And why do holden have this device anyway? Obviously it's common practice. I'm sure we'll here more on this.

[markone2]

Winding back odo's on 2nd hand vehicles is obviously a no-no, but where do dealers stand as far as winding them back on vehicles not delivered ?


Define *Demo* and define *New* vehicle

[IIV8II]

Holden has the feature - ability to wind back the speedo to 0km on new cars that have travelled less than 100 km - to stop the whinging of some 'Mavis and Bill' customers who don't understand that a new car MUST have km put on it for PD and transport purposes. :rolleyes: However, does anybody know how many times 99km can 'disappear' before a car is delivered to a customer? :eek:

[Jonesy]

Define *Demo* and define *New* vehicle

New vehicle is one you watch the freight company take off the back of the truck at 11:30 at night whilst checking the ODO......like I did with mine :D

Good point, I'm thinking also that this would apply more so to demo vehicles.

Jonesy

[IIV8II]

Good grief, I'm glad I brought mine elsewhere. Makes you wonder how many they have done, and were they under 100klm? :bash: You can't even trust your dealer, let alone the used car yards.

And do you KNOW yours wasn't 'wound back'?

[C4B]

Is that 100 kilometres or dealer speak for 100Ks (100,000kilometres). ;) ;)

If so I might get the GTS wound back at the next service.....

[Mongy]

And do you KNOW yours wasn't 'wound back'?
No I cannot say for sure, :eek: and it is the second one I have brought through them, but I also know cars have to have a few delivery klm. I have also seen them with over 100klm in that dealer when they have used a new one with trade plates as a demo, and they have not tried to hide it so hopefully they do not use that practice.

[chuss]

It is very easy to wind back clocks on cars no matter how new they are. I'm a panel beater and I get request on a monthly basis of people asking to give the car a "young birthday"...
I don't like jail... so I don't do it..

[V-Car]

I thought this was pretty common knowledge.
Dont they do it with Tech-2?

[Phido]

Its fairly widely known that tech-2 that holden supply dealers with have this function. I'm sure there are reasons for it.

For example, holden takes the car (randomly choosen) for a test drive to ensure quality of it vechicals like a good car company should do. This adds say 30Km. Then the dealer recives the car, takes it for a test drive as part of the dealer delivery check, it also gets taken to the window tint shop and recives a tank of petrol. This leaves the car with a odo reading of say 75 km (perfectly possible in a country town).

Now some people might get mad that there brand new car, has 75 km on it, like its been used as a flogging horse and pizzia delivery car. Dealer trys to explain that the car is in perfect working order (as it was checked by both factory and dealer, any fixes carried out listed to customer) and that the car needed the requested tinting to be done offsite by a expert and as a good dealer they filled the car right up to the brim for the customer.

Dealer advises customer of this, and can offer a odo reset, so it has 0 KM on it when he gets it, customer agrees and all is good in the world. Customer is aware of its 75km dealer/factory history, as is the dealer. Dealer should also advise the factory when and why this was done so they can keep it on file should it ever become a issue. (IE diff falls out of the car and rubber in the wheel arches when customer takes car back in 3 days after finding out! At which point dealer must try to make it up to customer).

Obviously there are cases where it should not be used, ie, on the demo car the dealer has, which is flogged for 7 months by potential customers and staff, and every night has its odo reset, then is sold as a "brand new car!", despite it having travelled more like 30,000 km.

Personally I don't think it should be avalible. I would quite happily take a car that has <40km from a city dealer or <100km from a country dealer, if the figures add up and I kinda trust the dealer (or get shown the other 3 cars awaiting pick up that have almost exactly the same km).

As far as I know, Ford doesn't let its dealers use any tool to easily remove delivery Km..

[Scud]

I heard a tale of someone out on a test drive who was politely asked to pull the car over with 97kms on the clock. Another car was called for and a flatbed tow truck was summonsed!!

[Arclight]

haha thats funny Scud (In a sad way)

Some places around the area I work offer this service as part of a regular tune.

[chops]

:rolleyes: However, does anybody know how many times 99km can 'disappear' before a car is delivered to a customer? :eek:

This is what I would be worried about.
As Markone2 said, it's very easy to do regardless with the right "tools", but if THIS one has been discovered, how much more of it is really going on?

To be honest, I'd be happier to buy a car with 40k that had been wound back to 20k, than I would be to buy a supposedly "new" car that had really done 5000 kilometres!

[Toddy78]

As long as the dealer can account for the kays they put on the car, I cant see the problem with having a few kays on it. I dont think they should be able to wind the clock back. period.

[EHLS1]

Tech 2 is used to reset odometers under 100ks but when this is performed it has an electronic print of which dealer performed it.

I had one person asking why our spare parts didn't have a part in stock could he take one of the cars being assembled out the back :lol:

[VooDoo]

I bought a car from Motorama Toyota that was wound back. i didnt know until after id sold the car and the dealer i traded it with noticed damage to the back of the speedo. My question was why they were looking there in the first place if not to wind it back as well. Its not like it was broken or needed to be removed "to look", that was a Holden dealer too.....

[markone2]

I bought a car from Motorama Toyota that was wound back. i didnt know until after id sold the car and the dealer i traded it with noticed damage to the back of the speedo. My question was why they were looking there in the first place if not to wind it back as well. Its not like it was broken or needed to be removed "to look", that was a Holden dealer too.....


Mr Voodoo.if the Dealer principle of Motorama ( not of Grommet & Wallace fame), found any of his staff reconditioning car dashboards their balls would be removed without the added benefit of surgery ….that Gentlemen is one of the old school.
But you are correct ,very few odometers actually break ,exceptions to the rule include VK Commodore Speedo’s and EB falcon era odometers….

[Dickie Knee]

Does this mean if you book your car in for a service, the service reception person say " Would you like your speedo clocked with that. " :lol:

Sorry joke only

[mellafella]

ONE of Australia's biggest car makers has been caught up in a Queensland Government investigation into odometer tampering.

The Fair Trading Department will include General Motors Holden in an investigation sparked after a Brisbane Holden dealership admitted winding back odometers on new cars.

And GMH – which yesterday insisted the practice was unacceptable – has revealed it is conducting its own investigation into the case.

A spokesman for Fair Trading Minister Margaret Keech would not reveal if GMH had broken the law by providing a diagnostic tool that could also wind back the odometers of Holden Commodores if they had done less than 100km.

The spokesman said he did not know if a tool existed, and they only had the word of Craig Armstrong, the retail principal of Armstrong Holden, in Woolloongabba.

Yesterday, The Courier-Mail revealed Armstrong Holden's retail principal had admitted to winding back odometers on new cars.

Through his lawyers, Mr Armstrong said: "A diagnostic tool provided by the manufacturer enables a retailer to adjust the odometer only in a Holden Commodore and only when that odometer has accumulated less than 100km.

"Isolated or not, it is not a practice that is appropriate, and I have taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again."

Fair Trading Department officers yesterday swooped on the dealership.

The probes have begun as Premier Peter Beattie and Fair Trading Minister Margaret Keech both yesterday committed to investigating and charging fraudsters.

Mrs Keech said: "The matter regarding Armstrong Holden winding back odometers under 100km on brand new cars is under investigation.

"Once the investigation is completed OFT will determine what appropriate enforcement action can be taken against any parties found to be in breach of legislation administered by OFT."

Premier Peter Beattie said the Government treated odometer tampering as a serious offence.

"We all know that it's a fraud and anyone who's caught will be charged. If there are issues and impediments to investigate these matters we will resolve them."

A GMH spokesman said last night odometer tampering was unacceptable.

"Holden does not condone or support any reduction in odometer readings.

"Holden is investigating matters relating to Armstrong Holden and whether the dealer may have breached its Holden Sales and Service Agreement. This is a commercial matter and as such, will remain confidential between Holden and the dealer.

"In regards to diagnostic tools, the computer-based nature of modern cars means that Holden dealers are trained to use Tech 2 diagnostic hardware and software for servicing.

"Tech 2 is designed solely for General Motors vehicle maintenance and is incompatible with other systems. "This package is available to franchised service outlets and has extensive security hardware and software features."

Mitsubishi and Toyota spokesmen said they did not have a device that allowed a technician to wind back a clock. A Ford spokeswoman said "to her knowledge" the company did not have a tool with those abilities.
__________________
................................Whatever it takes !!

[ssberlina]

Hmm this may get interesting. I wonder if Armstrong may lose its francise with Holden and HSV over this.

I bet it will just be swept under the carpet when the next big headline comes along like Latham having a cry.

[markone2]

Hmm this may get interesting. I wonder if Armstrong may lose its francise with Holden and HSV over this.

I bet it will just be swept under the carpet when the next big headline comes along like Latham having a cry.


Regrettably this is but the tip of the iceberg :( If and when the State Government decides that peoples right’s over rule the importantance of collecting a fortune in stamp duties and remove certain sections of the privacy act from the Department of Transport
Files the resulting repercussions will send shock waves from Brisbane to Roma on a scale nature could never match……and that’s only Queensland……..the info is steering console operators straight in the face at Dept of transport offices state wide every time this happens (with the exclusion of one owner cars sold privately).however they are powerless to act on the info by Government Policy…This applies Australia wide.

[ssberlina]

Your right there, all you have to do to stamp this out is have the km recorded by the transport authority at each registration and have this available to the public based on the body number of the car. Even if the engine is changed you will still have the km at least on an annual basis for the vehicle itself.

As for the new cars well this obviously wont work, maybe Holden etc should have this factory locked. (dont ask me how)

[ssberlina]

Does this mean if you book your car in for a service, the service reception person say " Would you like your speedo clocked with that. " :lol:

Sorry joke only

Hey Dickie, any word on HSV's view on this given that they are a HSV rep as well.

[seldo]

I've never heard such a beat-up and an over-reaction in my life. It so hard to please some people. Every new car has some k's on it before delivery. Just think about it - they get driven at the factory before they are loaded onto the truck/train, then they get driven off the transport to a holding yard and back on again to another truck (this could happen up to a dozen times depending on where the car is being sent to) and then it gets pre-delivered and driven, and detailed and driven, and accessories fitted and driven, and registered and driven, and cleaned again and driven, and taken off the showroom and driven around the block to get back in to the service division (because you can't drive against the one-way traffic), and so on. Get over it - they end up with anywhere between 20 and 80 or 90 kms on them before delivery. And the buyer comes in to pick it up and has a dummy-spit and says " I want a BRAND-NEW one!!! with zero kms". It just can't be done. I feel sorry for Armstrongs. Poor bugger - all he has done really is try to keep the buyer happy but some dick-head has pointed the issue out to the buyer who has jumped on his high-horse and run to the press sleazes who just leap at the opportunity to beat-up a story about car dealers. It is not as if the buyer was having something put over him. They pointed it out to him ferchrissakes! Stupid part is that if the idiot hadn't a) clocked it, and b) pointed it out to the buyer, the buyer would probably have been happy to accept the car with the 50 or 60 kms that it had. Take a reality check people, and wait until there is something worthwhile to bleat about. All new cars come with some mileage on the clock. Learn to live with it!

[LSX-438]

some more news

Qld: Motorists eligible for compo over odometer windbacks

BRISBANE, July 6 AAP - Queensland motorists ripped off by
odometer windbacks were eligible to seek compensation from a
special fund, Fair Trading Minister Margaret Keech said today.
She said 112 odometer windback claims, totalling $493,848, had
already been lodged with the consumer fidelity fund, administered
by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT).
The claims followed the discovery that six Brisbane car dealers
had tampered with vehicles before selling them to unsuspecting
buyers.
Ms Keech said the latest 60 to be added to the list related to
the activities of jailed Brisbane dealer Gary Sidney Cunningham.
She said these claims, worth $252,313, were being processed and
evaluated.
"The claim fund is designed to protect consumers and to provide
natural justice to all parties involved," Ms Keech said.
She said the OFT had prosecuted more than 20 individuals and
companies for tampering in the past two years, with the courts
imposing fines totalling $200,000.

[RKC62]

Part of the problem in Queensland is that previous infractions have incurred fines of several thousand dollars - as in only a few cars worth of "adjustments". If a dealer knows he is still ahead of the game if he gets caught on every tenth windback, then there are going to be those who will do it...
That idiot woman Keech (who gets in the papers even more than Hollywood Pete these days!) claims than MORE than 20 prosecutions have claimed NEARLY $200,000. Them's good odds.
Now the taxpayers are gonna cough up compensation - brilliant...

[seldo]

Part of the problem in Queensland is that previous infractions have incurred fines of several thousand dollars - as in only a few cars worth of "adjustments". If a dealer knows he is still ahead of the game if he gets caught on every tenth windback, then there are going to be those who will do it...
That idiot woman Keech (who gets in the papers even more than Hollywood Pete these days!) claims than MORE than 20 prosecutions have claimed NEARLY $200,000. Them's good odds.
Now the taxpayers are gonna cough up compensation - brilliant...
I have to agree with the prosecution of blokes who are giving used cars a "dash-board manicure" - go get 'em, because that is just out and out fraud and mis-representation. Also, i think you will find that compensation is funded by the motor dealers' fidelity fund and it isn't public funds. Well, it wasn't public funds, but I seem to remember that a couple of years ago Beattie found a few mill sitting in the fidelity fund and thought it would be a good idea if the Govt just sort of looked after it for them... But the funds were not provided by the public in the first instance - comes from dealer licence fees.

[markone2]

... But the funds were not provided by the public in the first instance - comes from dealer licence fees.


:) At $1600 for 3 years licence I don't think there are quite that many Queensland Motor Dealers to go around for the numbers being mentioned….I believe most of that 1600 is swallowed in admin fees.
Until QT closes the time honoured method of back dooring the registration process, this business is never going to go away for good…not with the Government collecting a minium of $200 per vehicle that slips through the net with a reborn odometer, add stamps and transfer tax ,plus new plate charges and you will begin to get an inkling of just how much is at stake here …that $200 is based on a humble 4 cylinder over 6 mths…start adding in a few six’s and eights with stamps being paid twice over at 2% on $10,000 cars and the mind just boggles at the sheer magnitude of money involved …

[Dickie Knee]

Hey Dickie, any word on HSV's view on this given that they are a HSV rep as well.


I think HSV will wait to see what Holden do

[LSX-438]

(sounds like the compensation fund is about equal to the fines imposed)

this is all rather ambiguous though..

the dealers are "allowed" to reset the odo prior to 100km, is that right? perhaps not anyway what is the actual problem? presumably if a dealer is doing it repeatedly there is a problem.

[Dickie Knee]

(sounds like the compensation fund is about equal to the fines imposed)

this is all rather ambiguous though..

the dealers are "allowed" to reset the odo prior to 100km, is that right? perhaps not anyway what is the actual problem? presumably if a dealer is doing it repeatedly there is a problem.

As far as I know no one is allowed to reset speedos. The Tech2 is only to be used for this when installing a new cluster and then you are to program the same kms as the old one you are replacing.

[LSX-438]

As far as I know no one is allowed to reset speedos. The Tech2 is only to be used for this when installing a new cluster and then you are to program the same kms as the old one you are replacing.

OIC...

in that case they deserve everything they get. in the end though, whats 100km? unless it is done over and over again i suppose.

[ssvyredute]

OIC...
. in the end though, whats 100km? unless it is done over and over again i suppose.
that`s exactly the point forrestd we don`t know how many times its been done that`s why this practice should be abolished and the ability of doing this be taken away from all dealers

[GM-IRON]

I think that might be the reson why when I picked up my new ute the odometer had less Kms than my trip meter.

Cheers,
GM-IRON

[LSX-438]

good points.

so the less than 100km rule is for new clusters only?

[Spectrum]

I wonder whether this speedo-reversal explains why the 1500-km service warning reminder in my LX8 started flashing at the 500-km mark (on the clock)! I guess it is possible for the main processor to keep incrementing the actual KM travelled with regards to the pre-set alert-notification threshold,irrespective of the clock reversal. So if the Service Warning is set to start chiming in with 500-km before the next service is due, I have an unexplained 500-km....... :eek:

I must check up on the manual... :)

[LSX-438]

i think you're correct, the reminder is active well beforehand

[Dickie Knee]

I wonder whether this speedo-reversal explains why the 1500-km service warning reminder in my LX8 started flashing at the 500-km mark (on the clock)! I guess it is possible for the main processor to keep incrementing the actual KM travelled with regards to the pre-set alert-notification threshold,irrespective of the clock reversal. So if the Service Warning is set to start chiming in with 500-km before the next service is due, I have an unexplained 500-km....... :eek:

I must check up on the manual... :)


Surely if the dealer was going to change the Kms you would reset the whole cluster so that the service warning is reset too. :eek:

[Spectrum]

Surely if the dealer was going to change the Kms you would reset the whole cluster so that the service warning is reset too. :eek:
Depends...I'm purely theorising here, but if the main cpu controls the odometer incrementing at a level separate from a "master" clock which the tool the dealers have can't access, it is possible that the service reminders might be referenced against this "master" clock (again stressing I'm only thinking out loud....painfully!!), and thus unaffected by the reversal.

My company's monitoring systems allows supervisory engineers to access Alarm threshold tables and adjust or deactivate them to suit the environmental conditions, but they can't access the master-control level to change the actual reading variable which determines whether a reading is developing into an alarm condition or not. They can raise or lower the alarm trigger threshold, but they can't alter the degree of measurement variability which defines whether an alarm is being generated.

Then again, Holden might just prefer to generate service reminders 1000-Km beforehand :lol:

[Dickie Knee]

Depends...I'm purely theorising here, but if the main cpu controls the odometer incrementing at a level separate from a "master" clock which the tool the dealers have can't access, it is possible that the service reminders might be referenced against this "master" clock (again stressing I'm only thinking out loud....painfully!!), and thus unaffected by the reversal.

My company's monitoring systems allows supervisory engineers to access Alarm threshold tables and adjust or deactivate them to suit the environmental conditions, but they can't access the master-control level to change the actual reading variable which determines whether a reading is developing into an alarm condition or not. They can raise or lower the alarm trigger threshold, but they can't alter the degree of measurement variability which defines whether an alarm is being generated.

Then again, Holden might just prefer to generate service reminders 1000-Km beforehand :lol:

Service reminders can be reset by Tech2

[Spectrum]

Service reminders can be reset by Tech2...then I'm going to take an aspirin for my headache...good night!!
:bash: :lol:

[VooDoo]

Service reminders can be reset by Tech2
My service reminder was reset in the driveway by the service manager with a few key presses and turning the key on and off a few times

[LSX-438]

instructions are in the manual

[Dickie Knee]

Tech2 will reset the service reminder if it is not due yet.

In case you get the car serviced before it comes on.

[VXSSV8]

Very interesting Mark. ;) Just got the local rag (S.E. Advertiser) and its on the front page...Holden Dealer in Hot Spot. Now I know why I never trusted them :D , pity it wasn't my friends at the white elephant :D . I know through a friend of a friend that it is definately possible, all I will say is don't ever buy a Maroon 1999 VTII Berlina that is a Calais look-a-like as I am led to believe its been wound back (or should I say been reset) about 40000km (120k to 80k). I find this sort of behaviour wrong but sadly as I am led to believe it is widespread and well known. Buyer beware!

:rolleyes:

[markone2]

Very interesting Mark. ;) Just got the local rag (S.E. Advertiser) and its on the front page...Holden Dealer in Hot Spot. Now I know why I never trusted them :D , pity it wasn't my friends at the white elephant :D . I know through a friend of a friend that it is definately possible, all I will say is don't ever buy a Maroon 1999 VTII Berlina that is a Calais look-a-like as I am led to believe its been wound back (or should I say been reset) about 40000km (120k to 80k). I find this sort of behaviour wrong but sadly as I am led to believe it is widespread and well known. Buyer beware!

:rolleyes:

It’s unfortunate but the buying public has long been educated to buy on Kilometres
before all else ,those of you who have sold vehicles privately before will have experienced this 1st hand, number one question asked *How many Ks*. with all thoughts of a well documented service history flying out the door…oh people will ask on the phone if the car has *Books* but only one out of 10 buyers will ever open that logbook…..
The astute buyer who purchases on a combination of Condition and K’s travelled will very rarely find himself a victim of odometer wind back unless the car has been prepared by a pro which the majority of these wind back cowboys are not……
The Signs…..
1/ New Plates. it’s 50/50 odds on.
2/ Missing pages and large gaps in the service book…or replacement book 60/40 on

The advice….
1/ Buy on Condition / Condition / Condition…
2/ Leave the RACQ card at home, arm yourself with some-one who plays this game for his livelihood.
3/ Get the car on a hoist….all secrets will be revealed and you’d be astounded where some service stickers are placed on cars.
4/ Do not take the service stamps in any logbook for granted, check them out, rubber stamps cost approximately $10.00 to purchase..
5/ Take item one as Gospel ,a well maintained 3 year old vehicle with a full service history travelled 120000 ks is a much better buy than one done 50,000 with only the first free service it’s claim to fame ..imho

[Dickie Knee]

...........
4/ Do not take the service stamps in any logbook for granted, check them out, rubber stamps cost approximately $10.00 to purchase..


Give the service dept a call, and ask them about the service history on the car you are looking at to see if their computer matches whats in the book.

I have done this with all my cars even if the servicing dealer is not the selling dealer.

[IH8WRX]

Correct me if I am wrong please on this. I always thought that each engine was tested or "run" for 1000km before it either placed into the car or before the speedo was connected to make sure it was working. If this is so what's the huge problem with turning it back 100km? OK I know the practice is illegal, however look at the bigger picture. Holden actually supply them the special tool to do it with so obviously it's been happening for a while and not only at Armstrong Holden either.

I commend Armstrong Holden for having the guts and honesty to come forward to tell the truth, not make excuses or deny the accusation. Walk into your local Holden dealer now and ask them the same question and see how many of them have the courage to be this honest with you? I drive from Tweed Heads to Brisbane to have my car serviced by Armstrong and they are by far superior to the Holden dealers on the Gold Coast. They have the best HSV mechanic in Australia, and the guy has won numerous awards to prove this claim. Armstrong are also the most profitable Holden workshop/service centre in Australia which was only released in the last two weeks.

Sorry but instead of bagging Armstrong out look at their overall performance records, acheivements and their honesty to come forward and admitt this is a common practise. Their staff are always friendly, helpful and I have always found them honest.

[Jonesy]

Sorry but instead of bagging Armstrong out look at their overall performance records, acheivements and their honesty to come forward and admitt this is a common practise. Their staff are always friendly, helpful and I have always found them honest.


It's not about how good they are or how many awards they have won, they've been caught out. Sure they've gone about it the right way but if they guy hadn't of seen the x amount of klms on the car in the showroom I'm guessing they would not have even brought it up.

It wouldn't surprise me if other "reputable" dealers are doing the same thing. Most profitable is a grey area to be claiming but I'm not even going to go there.

[markone2]

Sorry but instead of bagging Armstrong out look at their overall performance records, acheivements and their honesty to come forward and admitt this is a common practise. Their staff are always friendly, helpful and I have always found them honest.

That Sir is your opinion.I believe they had the most ingnorant slob of a service Manager I have ever had the misfortune to meet,however I most certainly believe you about the most profitable...at whose expense?

[BlackVYmaloo]

Yes we all know its wrong, yes it is illegal and yes it shouldn't be done. BUT...... Would you rather buy a brand new car with 0 klms and not have been tested. Or one with 100kmls or more, having been tested and found to be in excellent condition. The fact is, If they are winding it back and then sell it to you. You are given 3-6 year warranty, which will pay for anything that stuffs up and isn't part of wear and tear. Also, you are going to probably go and do a trade-in in the future. So the dealer's would have to give you the trade depending on the klm's on the car. In all the new cars these days, it doesn't really matter how many klm's are on it. The cars have excellent parts and get looked after quite well at the dealship service department. Im not saying that i think it is cool to wind it back.

But if you want the car, you want the car. I bought my VY maloo from Armstrong holden. Got it built and everthing so i could get the 2004 plate on it, rather then a 2003 plate for the same price. The car had 15k's on it. Was only sent to get detailed and put the plates on.

Someone also said that the first service warning came on at 500 klms, they are put that far back, because you are supposed to call the dealership and tell them the first reminder has come up. They will then give you a booking with a week's grace. So you have plenty of time to get the klm's up to the service k's required and get the car back in there. The first 1500k's are important to service at the mark because that is about the distance that if anything is going to go wrong. It will.

If you are worried about whether the clock is wound back. You need to take a reality check. How many of you are going out there and adding performance parts to your car? comon hands up!!!! Yes all of us. Now what does increasing the power do? Yes it degrades the engine life and wears out other components. Your all having a bitch about it, but ultimately you're all hypocrites.

If all you want is a car that works and doesn't break down. Buy a bloody corolla or something. Those of us with new cars can rest assured that the car we own hasn't been wound back thousands. cars that are for sale in a car yard dont get driven daily and dont get thrashed. The people who work at Holden have sweet cars themselves and dont need to be driving around in a car that is for sale out the front. It would be too much of a risk getting caught.

If you want to worry, worry about car tuners!!!!
I had a tuner charged with unlawful use of my vehicle, which is the same charge as stealing. After he was picked up by the police for driving my vehicle around at 1:00am in the morning. The car is question is my VN SS 355 supercharged. It had a brand new HSV 355 stroker and is STA supercharged. The cops pulled him over because they honestly quote "thought it was stolen, the way it was being driven". Now what is worse? your dealer winding it back a few? or your tuner, taking your car for joy rides and who knows what else while your at home twidling your toes. I went in once to see what my VN pulled on the dyno. I looked at the computer graph, and you know what i saw? over 100 dyno runs. I was gob smacked. 100+ dyno runs. And dyno runs arent as safe as you may believe you know. They are trying to rev the car as hard as they can to see how high it can go. Now tell me that isnt intentionally killing your car.

Dont always believe what the newpaper says. reporters are there to get a big headline and hopefully get a good job position after they catch that big fish.

[IIV8II]

It's not about how good they are or how many awards they have won, they've been caught out. Sure they've gone about it the right way but if they guy hadn't of seen the x amount of klms on the car in the showroom I'm guessing they would not have even brought it up.

It wouldn't surprise me if other "reputable" dealers are doing the same thing. Most profitable is a grey area to be claiming but I'm not even going to go there.


The HAVEN'T been 'CAUGHT OUT'. I'm not saying I agree with this, but resetting the speedo is a function that is built into the BCM/dash and is basically a standard service procedure for new cars that have been driven before customer delivery and has been going on for years - well, I've known about it for years... as I said, I know WHY this function is there, but I'm not sure about whether it SHOULD be there...
It's a media beat-up. Bloody journalists - always after a sensationalist 'story'

[Mongy]

I drive from Tweed Heads to Brisbane to have my car serviced by Armstrong and they are by far superior to the Holden dealers on the Gold Coast. They have the best HSV mechanic in Australia, and the guy has won numerous awards to prove this claim. Armstrong are also the most profitable Holden workshop/service centre in Australia which was only released in the last two weeks.


Yeh, they might be. If you have ever worked in a dealership you would know how they do it. By charging out up to 150% of the mechanics time. If you want to pay up to 1.5 hours labour for a job that only takes the mechanic 1 hour that is your choice. If I could charge out more than I actually did I'd make a heap of money too :deal: but some of us are more honest than others.

[wylie27]

to all the people who say this practise is ok.

When you buy your beloved SS/Monaro/Calais/HSV etc etc you can be paying $45,000 to $100,000 for this car. Then to find out a dealer has rolled the clock back by 20km to me is intolerable.

This is out and out Fraud. The vehicle is being mis-represented. Purchasing a car with 27km on the clock to findout that it had 99km before the reset could mean the car has done 106km.

I have seen what sales, mechanics, and Yardies do to new vehicles on the "test" Runs.

My father is a mechanic at a Holden dealer and he has a love of Holden's. He is shocked that some mechanics/dealers would roll back the clock. It's a practice he has never condoned or done in his 40 yrs of mechanicing.

It's a duisgusting and illegal practice and severe punishments should be placed on the Dealers who do this.

[Doug]

Personally I can see why they reset before delivery, it would stop a certain type of buyer from complaining. I've heard of some complaining / expecting big discounts after finding as few as 20km on the clock. Mine had 32km on it when I picked it up.. not bad considering wheels, bodykit and aftermarket leather was added before I collected it.

BUT...

The issue is when the car is reset a dozen times... and when you pick it up it has actually done 100's of ks. That is where there is a problem. If the TECH2 can't be modified to allow only 1 reset per car / instrument cluster, then it shouldn't be made available.

[seldo]

I wonder whether this speedo-reversal explains why the 1500-km service warning reminder in my LX8 started flashing at the 500-km mark (on the clock)! I guess it is possible for the main processor to keep incrementing the actual KM travelled with regards to the pre-set alert-notification threshold,irrespective of the clock reversal. So if the Service Warning is set to start chiming in with 500-km before the next service is due, I have an unexplained 500-km....... :eek:

I must check up on the manual... :)
My manual says that the service reminder activates 1000km before due so that you have lead-time to book in.

[seldo]

I continue to be amused and amazed at the self-righteous hypocritical ranting and raving going on over this storm in a tea-cup regarding insignificant speedo re-setting.
Many of these same people who claim to be so righteous are also the same persons who will plead ignorant to how the gearbox "just broke" (when they were abusing it at the strip) or the engine "just made a funny noise" (when they were flat-changing and missed the gear) or left the radiator cap off and cooked it. Oh no, these goodie goodies would never ever do even the slightest thing wrong. If someone gave them too much change back when they paid for their petrol - they'd bring the guy's attention to it immediately... yeah sure..
Whilst I certainly do not condone significant re-setting of speedos, and agree that the full force of the law should be directed at those who do so, this is just a total beat-up over an insignificant issue. Sure, it's not good and probably shouldn't happen, but there's plenty of far worse and far more significant things happening out there. And it's really only to make the owners feel good. Let's face it, they are probably going to do 100,000km or more in the car - does 50km off that really make a difference?
Get a life guys. Take a reality check and at least try to be a bit honest with me, if not yourselves.

[Jonesy]

Fuel to the fire:

Dealer speedo checks
Rosemary Odgers and Renee Viellaris
July 8, 2004

ALL Holden new-car dealerships in Brisbane will be investigated for odometer fraud amid claims a second franchise has been caught illegally winding back the number of kilometres.

Inspectors from the Office of Fair Trading began checking vehicles at 13 sites across Brisbane yesterday.

The surprise inspections began after The Courier-Mail this week revealed that Armstrong Holden at Woolloongabba had admitted winding back clocks on new cars that had done less than 100km.

The checks could spread statewide and include used cars if further tampering is uncovered.

But a peak motoring body yesterday ridiculed the investigation, saying it should be targeted at unlicensed dealers who were the biggest tamperers of odometers.

"Backyard unlicensed dealers must be laughing their heads off," Motor Trades Association Queensland executive director Tony Selmes said.

Mr Selmes also accused the Office of Fair Trading Office of failing to investigate all complaints about odometer fraud, a claim the office rejected.

News of the checks coincided with revelations another consumer had lodged a complaint that a car they leased from a different Holden dealership had a tripometer higher than the odometer.

Fair Trading is investigating the claim, as well as an allegation by Armstrong Holden that General Motors Holden provided its dealerships with a diagnostic tool capable of winding back odometers. Armstrong said the tool worked only when a car had done less than 100km.

General Motors Holden, which has launched its own investigation into Armstrong Holden's admission, yesterday said it had not been contacted by Fair Trading inspectors.

"Dealerships are independently owned businesses, separate from Holden," it said in a statement.

"Odometer tampering is unacceptable and illegal and Holden does not condone or support any reduction in odometer readings.

"Our dealers have a clear obligation to meet all relevant state and federal laws in the operation of their businesses."

Fair Trading spokesman Joe Camilleri said the investigation into Holden dealerships could take time.

"We are visiting Holden new car dealers in Brisbane as part of an ongoing investigation into odometer tampering," he said. "Investigations of this kind normally take several months to progress."

But Mr Selmes said he was angry that department investigators were focusing their "scarce" resources on Holden dealerships instead of unlicensed dealers.

"They're the ones winding clocks back by hundreds of thousands of kilometres," he said. "Unfortunately a shortage of resources in both the Fair Trading and Transport departments means that those engaged in this criminal practice have been getting away with it for a number of years."

He said the raid was a knee-jerk political response, and often investigators did not look into the MTAQ's tips on odometer tampering.

Speaking from Sydney, Mr Selmes said he had "thanks but no thanks" letters from the department about being too busy to investigate complaints. He would provide The Courier-Mail with the letters today.

Mr Camilleri said only two MTAQ matters were yet to be investigated, and there were nine current investigations on odometer tampering.

Further statewide compliance visits would be undertaken this month across the industry which would involve randomly examining odometer readings, he said.

"The OFT maintains a good relationship with the MTAQ and it acts on all complaints provided," Mr Camilleri said.

Anyone caught tampering with or misrepresenting odometers faces a fine of up to $40,500.

The Courier-Mail

[XLR8 V8]

I continue to be amused and amazed at the self-righteous hypocritical ranting and raving going on over this storm in a tea-cup regarding insignificant speedo re-setting.
Many of these same people who claim to be so righteous are also the same persons who will plead ignorant to how the gearbox "just broke" (when they were abusing it at the strip) or the engine "just made a funny noise" (when they were flat-changing and missed the gear) or left the radiator cap off and cooked it. Oh no, these goodie goodies would never ever do even the slightest thing wrong. If someone gave them too much change back when they paid for their petrol - they'd bring the guy's attention to it immediately... yeah sure..
Whilst I certainly do not condone significant re-setting of speedos, and agree that the full force of the law should be directed at those who do so, this is just a total beat-up over an insignificant issue. Sure, it's not good and probably shouldn't happen, but there's plenty of far worse and far more significant things happening out there. And it's really only to make the owners feel good. Let's face it, they are probably going to do 100,000km or more in the car - does 50km off that really make a difference?
Get a life guys. Take a reality check and at least try to be a bit honest with me, if not yourselves.


I think the "concern" here is that they have just said that they only do it if the vehicle has not yet reached 100kms - who is to say that is the truth? As Markone2 has stated, the figure can be changed for higher km's than that also. Armstrong have attempted to redirect blame toward Holden by saying "they gave us the tool to do it". In reality, Holden provided them with a Tech2 diagnostic tool - because they are a dealer with a service dept who require said diagnostics tool - not to reset odometers. The fact that it is CAPABLE of setting an odometer reading in a newreplacement cluster to the figure that the car has actually travelled, and that in doing so also contains the ability to change the figure down to zero does not give them the right to do it .... IT IS ILLEGAL TO TAMPER WITH AN ODOMETER - whether it be for 100kms, or 100,000kms. Just because they CAN do it, doesn't mean they should. If a customer stands there whinging that the car they are about to buy has 60kms on the clock, they should tell them to check all the new cars on both their sales lot, and that of the opposition - they would find the same thing. I fail to see what this issue has to do with people claiming for broken parts - while it is wrong, that issue is with HOLDEN, who are footing the bill for said false claims. This issue is with a dealer doing a dodgy on odometers and wondering what people are upset about. Those people are upset because they have paid their own hard earned money for their "new vehicle", which MAY not be as new as they think it is - who really knows - only Armstrong do.
In my suspicious mind (I have a Thomas profile to prove that I am afflicted with one), I think that this has been a way for them to sell demonstrator vehicles off as new vehicles - simply by resetting the odometer at the end of each day.

[markone2]

Decided against :)

[XLR8 V8]

No Gentlemen..it is not a tech 2




Well, you all get my drift anyway .... the tool (whatever it's called) was provided by Holden for installation of new/replacement clusters, to get the km reading on the new cluster to match the old one .... not to tamper with the reading in an existing cluster. It's like picking up the ugly chick at the bar .... just because you can - doesn't mean you should - and if you do, don't be surprised if you get yourself into trouble for it :lol:

[seldo]

XLR8_V8: Kris, I do understand where you are coming from, but really, these guys have got too much invested and too much to lose (as evidenced by this current drama) to engage in the practise in a deliberately fraudulent manner. By fraudulent, I mean that if they accumulate K's on a car and then reset it as a deliberate means of misrepresenting the car, (say, a demonstrator) as distinct from what I shall call a cosmetic reset which is largely to make buyers feel good about the new car which they have just bought which has accumulated 70, 80, 90 or even 100ks which is inevitable on some, particularly if it has been in stock for a while. And, shock/horror, many of them have been driven around the block a couple of times as a "demo" with a trader's plate on them. Many times, people are actually given a test drive on a trade plate of the very car they expect to buy. It's just that most don't think/know/care that another buyer or two may also have driven that car before them too. Most really don't want to know, to even think about the possibility. And let me assure you that this isn't just limited to Armstrongs or to Holden, but goes all the way to the very best of the brands/franchises. In the old days, most new cars had the speedo cable disconnected until delivery to prevent this very accumulation of a few unwanted K's, now it's as easy as the flick of a switch.
But you will find that while dealers have a fleet of registered demo's, as sure as eggs, the car you want to drive right now with the specific combination of engine/gearbox/trim/equipment etc is not on site just now. So they will give you a drive of the closest spec registered demo, except that you still want to drive the very spec car you are going to buy. And there is only one purkle/spew trimmed v8 t/t 7speed 'tonner in Australia at the time (because the combination is gross they have been stuck with the mongrel for 3 months). So, they whack a trade plate on YOUR car and give you a drive around the block in that. Now, even though you may not have wanted to consider the fact, it has probably happened a few times before - in YOUR car! So, even though you know that is a possibility, maybe even a likelyhood, you go ahead and buy it. Because you want That car! So, the dealer, wanting to make you feel good about your purchase tickles it back from 96km back to 26km. If you're astute, you know, because you noticed the speedo, but you feel good because it's now Yours and it's brand new, and your friends know it's brand new and can see it's only done 26km etc. The dealer isn't trying to put anything over you. He's told you it's the only one in captivity in that colour/trim/engine/gearbox combination, so he's not doing anything but trying to boost your warm and fuzzy feeling that comes with a new car. Where Armstrongs went wrong was some imbecile brought the customer's attention to the fact and shattered the dream. The customer was in denial up to that point, and this goose went and spoiled his party. That is the real issue. Ok, yes, strictly speaking it is illegal, wrong, immoral, all those things, but it happens every day. Just like the sparky will charge you for a new power-point even though he has actually fitted to the last job and then taken it off again because he had the wrong colour or whatever. It's still brand new, sort-of. You don't know and don't care unless someone tells you. But it really isn't some sort of filthy communist plot - it is just one of the realities of life which comes with the difficulties of trying to supply a big-ticket, long lead-time product which comes in 100 different variations. Maybe not a desirable one, but not really the murky illegal conniving thieving plot that has been portrayed.
Sorry for the long post.

[XLR8 V8]

I too, understand many of your points .... people until now have been naive to the fact that their car has to clock up few k's to make sure the guys in the plant bolted the engine in properly and to run between holding yard-->detailer-->tint shop-->delivery area. I turned up at the dealer the day my car arrived on the truck, and it had 12km's on it then - straight off the truck all dirty and stickered up. I'm not one to misunderstand the need for a few more km's pre-delivery, but I must admit I was surprised to find another 80kms on the clock (total 92kms) when I picked it up. Considering the tint/paint protection place is 1500m from the dealer I did question the km .... I was told that there were a few scuff marks found on the paint once the car was washed, so they took it to their preferred paint shop to have the marks fixed/removed. I concluded that the trip combined with the test drives would have put a few extra k's on and I was happy that they were honest with me. Could have been a lie, but it was an explanation which was all I needed. Now, they could have just set back the k's and I wouldn't been any wiser - but they didn't - because they simply don't do that. Instead of the many dealerships you mention continuing this practice over and over, why don't they just make a point of mentioning to purchasers before they buy the car, or put it in writing in the contract, that "Up to 100kms may be required for pre-delivery procedures". Then they could just quit this rather "grey" practice and not have to face the scrutiny that has recently reared it's ugly head.

[seldo]

Kris, sadly, most people are not as realistic as you. In many cases it is done to prevent dramas. Just imagine this scenario. Bloke orders the purkle/spew V8 t/t 7 speed tonner mentioned previously, but says he wants you to add a sunroof, tint, external roll-bar with spotties, Mack bulldog mascot, gun-rack, 10 clearance lights, tow-bar etc. So you get all that done, get it registered, detailed again, filled with gas again and ready to go. Now Cletus comes in to pick up his new gadget which by now has 172kms on the clock and throws a tanty because it's supposed to be brand new with no ks, (it already had 92ks when he drove it last week) and says that he's not going to take delivery. He wants a NEW one! Now what do you do? The thing is unsaleable to anyone else because of the specifications/colour/accessories etc, and is no longer a NEW car because it has been registered. Yes, you can argue and you can fight and sue and give more discount and no matter what you do the bloke is never really going to be happy. But with the flick of a switch, all is solved and everyone is happy. He knows, if he wants to think about it (which he doesn't), but it just solves dramas from unreasonable people.
It's a bit like marrying your sweetheart who once went out with someone you know. She may not have been a virgin when you met her. You know, he knows, she knows, but it is never mentioned and it isn't an issue unless someone rubs it in your face. Same sort of deal. Not great, but that's life.

[IH8WRX]

I continue to be amused and amazed at the self-righteous hypocritical ranting and raving going on over this storm in a tea-cup regarding insignificant speedo re-setting.
Many of these same people who claim to be so righteous are also the same persons who will plead ignorant to how the gearbox "just broke" (when they were abusing it at the strip) or the engine "just made a funny noise" (when they were flat-changing and missed the gear) or left the radiator cap off and cooked it. Oh no, these goodie goodies would never ever do even the slightest thing wrong. If someone gave them too much change back when they paid for their petrol - they'd bring the guy's attention to it immediately... yeah sure..
Whilst I certainly do not condone significant re-setting of speedos, and agree that the full force of the law should be directed at those who do so, this is just a total beat-up over an insignificant issue. Sure, it's not good and probably shouldn't happen, but there's plenty of far worse and far more significant things happening out there. And it's really only to make the owners feel good. Let's face it, they are probably going to do 100,000km or more in the car - does 50km off that really make a difference?
Get a life guys. Take a reality check and at least try to be a bit honest with me, if not yourselves.


Never more truer words spoken!

Guys lets be totally honest here. How many of you would really whinge when you turned up to your local dealer to take delivery of the car and Holden offered to reset the speedo for you? Not many I'm sure. That's not fraudulent at all because Holden are not profiting from it. Hey you get that extra distance on your warranty. How many people have been caught out before when you reach 100,100km and something breaks and costs you a packet to replace because it's out f warranty? In the end it's costing Holden they sure as hell haven't gained anything financially from it.

At least Armstrong had the guts to come forward to admitt it, more than I can say for a lot of other Holden dealers out there, not to mention other car manafactures in the industry. Think of it this way what would you do if you owned the dealership? Customer comes in and wants a brand new car and refuses to buy the one on the showroom floor because it has under 100km on the clock. You can't sell it as a "demostrator" because Holden have certified rules on selling cars as "demonstrators" and the dealers get a special deal from Holden, or rebate for the better choice of words. So in order to be realistic and make sure the customer doesn't have to wait till whenever the next lot are delivered they extend customer service, put the customer first and offer to reset the odometer and you the customer get the benifit of the warranty. Surely good old "common scence" has to prevail somewhere doesn't it? If so wouldn't this be it?

Just to clarrify another misconception here for those that think because I mentioned Armstrong are the most profitable workshop in the country that they charge to much is ludicrious. Remember Holden at head office in Melbourne set the prices for all repairs work. The dealers have absolutley no choice in the matter and there are sever and harsh penalties for any dealer caught flaunting this. I mentioned this factor because Q.L.D. have smaller population then Victoria and N.S.W. and Armstrong are the second biggest dealer in Q.L.D. It really says more about their customer service, their standards and their workmanship hence the reason for this well earned title. I can asure you now whether you are in W.A. or Q.L.D. the price for any work on a car is the same nationally. So please don't be under any misconception that Armstrong rip people off because that's so far from the truth it's not funny. You only get to the top by hard work and superior customer service and for a Q.L.D. dealership to come along and be better then the biggest ones in Melbourne is certainly a job well done which speaks volumes for their overall ethics and ability to deliver top quality after sales service. Quite often they are booked out a week in advance.

Please if people feel so badly about what Armstrong has done start up a poll and ask the question of "Would you as a customer like this to be done upon request of purchasing your new car from Holden" and lets see the results.

In the meantime for the knockers take a trip to Armstrong and just see how far more professional they are in all aspects of their dealership. In the last 3 years I have purchased 10 new Holdens and I wished all 10 of them had of been purchased from there. I know the next ones will be. I don't mind driving over 100km to them when my local dealer is 10km for piece of mind.

My closing comment here is never beleive everything you read in newspapers. I have been caught out myself in newspapers and I have as much trust for newspaper jurno's as pedophiles.

[markone2]

Never more truer words spoken!



Just to clarrify another misconception here for those that think because I mentioned Armstrong are the most profitable workshop in the country that they charge to much is ludicrious. Remember Holden at head office in Melbourne set the prices for all repairs work. The dealers have absolutley no choice in the matter and there are sever and harsh penalties for any dealer caught flaunting this. I mentioned this factor because Q.L.D. have smaller population then Victoria and N.S.W. and Armstrong are the second biggest dealer in Q.L.D. It really says more about their customer service, their standards and their workmanship hence the reason for this well earned title. I can asure you now whether you are in W.A. or Q.L.D. the price for any work on a car is the same nationally. So please don't be under any misconception that Armstrong rip people off because that's so far from the truth it's not funny. You only get to the top by hard work and superior customer service and for a Q.L.D. dealership to come along and be better then the biggest ones in Melbourne is certainly a job well done which speaks volumes for their overall ethics and ability to deliver top quality after sales service. Quite often they are booked out a week in advance.



Advertisement?.......please explain the dollar difference in the set service fee charged by Armstrong as against that charged by Motorama

[VooDoo]

IH8WRX, Ive had my car serviced at Armstrong. It was more expensive, lower quality and took them 2 go's and another $180 of my money to fix an issue that wasnt there before a basic service.

You might like them but ill never return there. I think this is just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to winding back speedo's. I can see no reason why the k's on the car isnt recorded on the rego. then its easy to check who has been wound back

[IH8WRX]

Advertisement?.......please explain the dollar difference in the set service fee charged by Armstrong as against that charged by Motorama


I would like to but I can't sorry Mark and VooDoo. Hey I'm not trying to start WWIII here, far from it. I realise you guys have had some bad experiences with Armstrong, as have I with some Gold Coast dealers and I imagine at some stage or another we all have a bad experience along the lines. I'm certainly not advertising for them, nor do I receive any type of financial reward for doing so. There are so many factors that come into the price for servicing it's not funny. I do not know what type of service you had performed, maybe one dealer gave it to you at a special rate or fleet rate etc etc knowing you had a bad experience at another dealership (I would just to keep you happy and make sure you returned and I got your future business)? I can go into one dealership and I get all my spare parts at trade price, yet I walk into another and I pay full price so it really depends on numerous variables. I know I said they have set prices yes, but there are numerous set prices they can charge.

Here is an example. I was told by a large Gold Coast Holden dealer the 100,000km service on my current model 3.2ltr V6 Rodeo would cost me $1200.00 :eek: . I drove an hour south to Lismore and got the same service for $800 because they used a special rate, the Gold Coast dealer didn't.

At the end of the day Armstrong must be doing something right because their service area is always full, the tech's are run off their feet, the salesmen are always out with clients test driving cars and there are an awfull lot of cars in Brissy with "Armstrong" stickers on their windows. Not to mention they have the best HSV mechanic in the country. They must be doing something right hey.

[seldo]

This thread reminds me why i got out of the car business after nearly 30 years. It is such a thankless business and so difficult to make people happy yet so easy to upset them.
In your typical service shop the customer comes in, dictates his list of grievances - 20k service, rattle in the back - exhaust?, needs wheel balance, squeak in passenger seat, funny "Ting" sound from centre console when going round left-hand corners, cracked head-light lense etc.
So, the car goes into the workshop, the tech puts it up on the hoist, drains the oil, replaces air and oil filters, checks and tightens everything he can put a spanner on, bangs this and that to find rattles, replaces a slightly saggy exhaust hanger that might be a problem (wty), rear shock bushes look okay but replace anyway (wty), while they are being done decides that one shock has slight oil-mist so replaces just to make sure (wty), replaces front sway-bar bushes which look okay but some cars have had problems there (wty), replaces rack-boot with v. minor weep (wty), removes and balances the front wheels, etc. He replaces the broken headlight, thumps and lubes the passenger seat a dozen times until he's fixed the squeek, and then takes it for a test . Yep, wheel balance is fine, exhaust isn't rattling, seat not squeaking but there is an occassional noise from somewhere. So, as per the customer's instructions he pulls the centre console out and tightens everything within, reassembles it and tests again, still an occassional rattle from somewhere, so tighten, fiddle, look, remove, tighten, test etc for 2 hours. Seems okay. Customer comes to collect car and faints at the size of the bill. (you've all done it ..) Jeez, it adds up! Strewth - are these air-filters made of gold! I didn't realise a head-light was that much! Can you take it out and put the old one back in? No, sorry, it's now been used... Grr!
Customer drives out seething! Next day he rings up spitting chips and insists on bringing it back in immediately because "You've done absolutely nothing!!" So, service manager tries to placate the customer, gives him a loaner while they have another look - "Still needs wheel balance, and the noise in the console is still there". So, they re-balance the wheels (balance was ok) and refit. They put 2 techs on the job and pull the console out and re-do everything, still can't find a problem. They take it for a good long run with a tech in the rear seat and still can't find anything. But then, as they go over the bump coming into the driveway.. there it is!! Ting! The tech in the back seat immediately traces it to the 5c piece in the ashtray in the back door.. Problem fixed. Noise in console indeed ...5 man hours spent so far. Customer is phoned - "come and get the car - it's now ready." Workshop fills the car with petrol gratis as a sign of goodwill because with all the testing the 1/4 tank it came in with is now gone. Customer arrives late so someone has to stay back and wait for him and returns loaner looking like it's just been rallyed, 2 parking tickets in the glove-box, and it rolls to a halt halfway up the driveway out of petrol.. Grunts as he snatches the keys and leaves.. Next day he rings screaming abuse. "You still haven't done a thing you useless bunch of crooks!! - it still needs a wheel balance." So service manager, to avoid an ugly scene, arranges for a tyre shop to collect the car and check the wheel balance on their machine. They report back that the balance was fine but they noticed that on a particular piece of road with a strong camber near the owner's office the car did run down the camber a bit, so although it was within specs, they gave the wheel alignment the slightest tweak which seems to have fixed it . Nothing more heard from the customer for 2 days, so the service manager takes a Valium and phones the customer to see if it is all okay. "Huh, yes, but no thanks to you blokes! Why don't you blokes get some decent techs, you bunch of thieves!". Smashes phone down..
Now, who pays here? Not the owner, and he won't be back. Not Holden - no matter how you fiddle it they don't pay for "diagnostic time". But the dealer has to absorb the cost of the 5 hours taken to try to find an occassional noise which was mis-described/diagnosed by the owner, and ditto the wheel balances and sub-contract job. Balance / alignment - what's the difference... And of course the only indication of the problem comes from the owner's descriptions. You can't ask the car "does it hurt when i tighten this, or does that feel better with this setting." And of course wait until friends or even worse - relatives, want something done or supplied. It's all supposed to be below cost and heaven help you if there is some real or imagined problem..
Like I say, it's a thankless business, and in writing this I realise why I am glad to be out.
Sorry for another long post :beer:

[VXSSV8]

Seldo... :nopity: :D Sounds like one of my visits during my LS1 days :D .

Seriously though not all customers are tossers like the incident you mentioned above and there are some dodgy dealers out there. I totally understand your story from a dealers point of view and does highlight how there are two sides to every story where some customers can be thankless bastards. That said though, in my experience most dealerships don't have the time to fix problems properly which means you generally get pissed off customers. Only last week one of our company cars had to go in for a new seat base to be fitted. They said it would take all day :confused: so the rep has no car and has to work at home catching up on paperwork. No phone call from the dealer so Rep turns up at 5pm to pick car up only to find it hasn't been looked at, sat in the car park all day. Lost day on the road for a rep all for nothing, should the dealer compensate the company some how for lost earnings? Doubt it! This is just one of many many many stupid incidents not worth going into that I have heard about or been directly involved in over my short time owning new cars and it just isn't right :nopity: . I know when I go to a dealer with a problem I write a full explanation of when the problem occurs and what it does (bit of an ongoing joke at my dealership when I pull out my A4 sheet :p ) , hopefully to save them time, but from time to time they still stuff things up. If you were at a Holden dealership I wouldn't mind knowing the the name of it as they sound like they take the time to look at problems properly. :)

:cheers:

[flappist]

What a load of crap......

Guys if your odometer runs off the drive train then every time you do a burnout then you are defrauding the next buyer coz the back wheels have turned more than the front and therefore show the wrong milage.

I have seen whingers spit over a tiny blemish in the paint on a new car and then blast off down a dirt road a week later chipping it to buggery.
Some people really do live in LALA land.

Shit what next?

The badge on my engine said 290kw and mine had 292kw on the bench dyno, I want a rebuild.

GET A LIFE.

[XLR8 V8]

Not once have I ever seen a dealer go to those lengths to fix the problems a customer's issues. :lol: Nor have I ever seen one proactively fix problems that are not yet a problem but may be in the future. In fact, I've seen one dealer charge a customer for wheel balance and rotation at the service, then a week later when he complained about a vibration, they stated that all 4 discs and pads required replacing because they were "dangerously unroadworthy". The poor old guy had only driven the car ONCE in the week before he returned it!
In the times that I have sat and waited for vehicles to be serviced, too often have I seen cars arrive at 9am, actually go into the workshop at 3pm, come out of the workshop at 3.45pm, yet the customer (or me) still gets a bill for 2-3hrs labour. did they have 3-4 guys all working on the car for that 45mins (4x45mins=3hrs).... errr... no, they didn't.
And they DO rip you off on the price of the parts used. e.g. $65 for 5L of Castrol Magnatec that they buy for sweet bugger all in bulk (I know this because I used to supply a number of dealers with said bulk product). It's only $25 to buy in a small 5L pack at Kmart and that comes with a toy car! :lol: Then there's the $20 for the oil filter that you can buy for $9 at that own dealers spare parts counter. Now those differences in pricing cannot be due to a labour components, because they hit you up for that a few more lines down the page. Servicing is the dealers bread and butter .... it's where the $$ are made ....

[seldo]

VXSSV8: Sure, I understand there are also plenty of stuff-ups fom the dealer's side too, and the incident you describe is, sadly, not all that uncommon. But that's just poor organisation and lack of systems, and shouldn't happen. Shouldn't, but they do occur. But, in your business, do you never make a stuff-up and do you consider compensation for consequential costs... Like, I had to send some important documents to perth some years ago and so i spent $100 on the best courier delivery I could find. They stuffed-up and sent them road-freight, and as a direct consequence it cost me $10k in real money!!! But the fine print says "all care but no responsibility" so GGF. But the car business is just full of potential problems - there's also far too many scratches and dents that are a consequence of too many vehicles in confined spaces and general carelessness. The car manufacturers are too unyielding on warranty stuff, and so why should the dealer be left holding the bag - especially if he didn't even sell the effin thing in the first place? That's where half of the problems start. The manufacturers are very tough on warranty claims. A typical scenario is that the customer has a problem with his car (real or imaginary) and takes it to the dealer to be fixed. Now, like I said previously, the dealer has to try to diagnose the problem almost instantly because he doesn't get paid diagnostic time for warranty, and makes the repair. The manufacturer has a big chart of procedures and from that he allows a set time to replace a gizmo, which can only be done within that time by a tech with universal joints in all appendages and limbs, and with 12 fingers on each hand on all three arms, and providing that everything goes according to the book and the bloke has practised the job 20 times beforehand. So the gizmo gets replaced with a new part from stock (which the dealer has to pay for on 30 day account) and the warranty part is put into the warranty store and tagged. 3 months later, the dreaded warranty auditor comes out and does a check. If he finds that the tag has come off the part and it can't be identified - claim denied. Or the part does not seem to have the fault it's suspected of - claim denied. and so on. So, when the claim is denied, the dealer loses all the labour cost of that repair plus the cost of the part, and for those claims that are paid, he gets re-imbursed at a low warranty rate, about another 2 months later. Now do you see why dealers hate doing warranty work especially if you did not buy the car from them in the first place. It costs the dealer heaps, and they will usually do the paying service first and leave the warranty stuff until last - it's simple economic necessity, and that's why you end up being unhappy. Not really the dealer's wish nor his fault, but you end up bearing the result of the manufacturer's warranty policy, and the dealer gets blamed and becomes the scapegoat.

[The Warden]

Some good insight into the dealers perspective Seldo, may have to call you "Sic'em Seldo" from now on :D

I agree that the 100k thing is not newsworthy, who cares? I was aware it happened from this forum, posts from a year or two back. I believe Ferrari insist their cars are road tested for 60 or 100km or some distance anyway before delivery, no exceptions....

When dealing with car dealers (or anyone else for that matter), first rule is keep your cool, think about it, who wants to help out (or deal with) a screaming banshee on the other end of the line??? Not many that's for sure.....

Gordie

[VXSSV8]

Seldo, point taken. As I said two sides to every story. Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. In my line of work (quite a bit different to the car industry) yes we do compensate for stuffups that are our fault which does cost us and hurts the bottom line but that's part of CUSTOMER SERVICE. Having said that though our customers are worth millions of dollars to us each year and compensating a few dollars or a few hundred dollars on a mistake to save the account is what we have to do. And if you think they aren't picky buggers like your rattle example above you would be wrong. They will complain about a 1-cent overcharge on a $20000 order, I shit you not, which if not dealt with properly can jeopardise the account, seriously. Cars are such an integral part of modern life for most people and to be without them for a day or two being fixed is a huge inconvenience. What shits me is dealers don't seem to see this and saying they will fix something after the fact that should have been fixed on the day of the service or worse was broken/scratched on the day of the service due to incompetence just doesn't cut it because its more lost time taking cars back and forth, organising a ride to work, etc. As a sign of good faith surely dealers could come up with something to ease the inconvenience and keep the customer smiling :) , maybe a loaner (not always possible though), discount on next service, discount on parts, whatever as long as its something that makes the customer think they aren't so bad after all. The only reasons I can think why they don't do this is that they are either greedy buggers (possible) or they make so many stuffups that they would go broke if they did (more probable). :confused:

:cheers:

[seldo]

XLR8_V8: Kris, Of course a lot of what you say there is true. But, is it any different to taking your pc in to have a new widget fitted and you get charged 2 hours labour for what actually takes 5 minutes, or for your lawyer or accountant charging you $500 for "care and consideration"? Every business has its lucrative parts and some cost areas but unfortunately they go hand in hand. When a good tech manages to do your service in only 3/4 hour because he had no dramas and it all just clicked but the scheduled time is for 1.5 hrs, that only offsets the times when there is a problem and they have a couple of blokes on it for 4 hours but they can't charge you that because you wouldn't bloody pay it!! You mention oil costs. I have seen many occassions where our buying cost per litre of bulk oil was considerably more than what Kmart were selling retail for the identical product in a plastic 5litre can! Valvoline at the time just shrugged their shoulders and said "When you buy 50,000litres at a time we'll sell it to you at the same price". Profitable workshops? Yes, they can be, very - when well run and doing retail work... And there's nothing wrong with that is there? Do you not expect your business to be profitable? Keeps us in LS1s ;) Your example of the old bloke with the vibration probably comes back to what i have already mentioned about false instructions from the client. He probably asked for his wheels to be rotated and balanced - job done... If someone asks you to supply them with a box of widgets, don't you do just that - give them a box of widgets? Then if they come back next week and say that the widgets didn't fix it, have another go - is that your fault? On re-reading your post, maybe you are inferring that they should have seen that when they had the wheels off, and you'd be correct, except that a menial task like a wheel swap is usually done by an apprentice who, at that level, wouldn't know jack shite. A good shop would automatically have a tech check, but if he wasn't complaining - let's get the show on the road. Spare parts - I've never heard of a service department that costs its own parts. They are supplied to the service dept by the parts dept at trade price (yes, the parts dept sells them to the service dept at the same price they'd sell them to the servo down the road) and they have a RRP which is usually advised by the manufacturer... Now, Kris, let's talk about someone else's amazing clean, efficient, angst-free business which has no dissatisfied customers. Let's talk about um, lawyers, IT suppliers, Plumbers, builders, sparkys, painters, butchers, bakers etc they all have their problems, but aren't as ready targets as the big bad car dealer. I can tell you about car buyers who take a car for a test run and return it with the CD player swapped, or the spare missing. Let me tell you about the buyers who bring their car in for a trade-in valuation and come back to pick up the new car 2 days later and the trade has sudenly inherited all tha bald tyres from the wife's car, and the battery is stuffed and, and... Or the bloke who traded a 911 Porsche and when he picked up his new car the Porsche was parked out the front with a set of bent valves and damaged pistons from an over-rev. Too late - the deal is done - the new car is invoiced to the finance company (title actually passes on invoice, not payment) - I could go on for hours about the honesty of the general public. Takes me back to the bad old days - I need a :beer:

[seldo]

VXSSV8: You are absolutely right in that it does come down to customer service and also it is in part decided by the policy of the dealer principal in how he wants his dealership to operate and to what standard. Fortunately, many of today's modern dealers are really making progress and are advancing the standard and reputation of service divisions, but at a price. Anyone been to a Lexus or top BMW dealership lately? Do yourself a favour and go and see the standard that they set - it really is a worthwhile experience and is highly commendable. But...at a price! A mate of mine had a $3000 bill for a service on his BMW the other day, and it was not for anything too special, but they keep the car for 2 or 3 days so that it helps justify the cost.... So , there are ways and means...at a price. :cheers:

[XLR8 V8]

XLR8_V8: Kris, Of course a lot of what you say there is true. But, is it any different to taking your pc in to have a new widget fitted and you get charged 2 hours labour for what actually takes 5 minutes

No, it's not ... but we don't have anyone here saying that PC dealers are these poor misrepresented individuals who barely make enough money to feed their family each week off the theiving scum that are the general public. ;)
Anyway, we all know that these PC dealers are theiving bastards though, don't we Voodoo :lol:.


You mention oil costs. I have seen many occassions where our buying cost per litre of bulk oil was considerably more than what Kmart were selling retail for the identical product in a plastic 5litre can! Valvoline at the time just shrugged their shoulders and said "When you buy 50,000litres at a time we'll sell it to you at the same price".

That is insane! Not your comment .... but the situation. The supply contract negotiator for the dealer should be immediately sacked as he/she are a useless bum. Oil distributors DREAM of capturing a motor dealer account and can and will fight tooth and nail on price in order to get/steal the account. I have seen deals struck where the price negotiated is equal to or below the distributors buy price from the parent oil company - and the only benefit the distributor gets from having the account at all is to get their own branded "Next service due" stickers onto the windscreens of the vehicles. i.e. Advertising.



Profitable workshops? Yes, they can be, very - when well run and doing retail work... And there's nothing wrong with that is there? Do you not expect your business to be profitable?

I would never deny a business the right to be profitable ... I have actually argued the fact at a 10pm at night at service station level with a customer who screamed that we were all ripoff bastards who should be shot. When I asked what his issue was, he exclaimed that he had seen on the news that the barrel price had dropped by 50c a barrel, but our board price had stayed the same. After trying the standard explanation he continued to be abusive. so I resorted to "Do you see written anywhere around here that we are a registered charity? It costs a bloody lot of money to keep this place open - Do you not think we have to pay power bills etc. too? Think about if everyone in your street turned on every light and device in their house and left it running 24hrs a day, 365days a year and you might have some idea of the size of just that one bill. And the last time I checked with the staff here, they weren't willing to work for free.... purely for the joy of meeting individuals such as yourself! Think about the fact that if we were lucky enough to make 2cpl on the fuel you just got (~25L/~$20). That's a whole 50c we just made off you. Now Rob here (console operator) just has to sell that same volume to another 1200 people this week to cover his own wages!" .... but back on topic :)


Your example of the old bloke with the vibration probably comes back to what i have already mentioned about false instructions from the client. He probably asked for his wheels to be rotated and balanced - job done



My point here was that the wheel were done at the same time as his scheduled service ... and in that service they do a "brake check" - then he drives the car ONCE and returns and they tell him his brakes are "dangerously unroadworthy"??? .... bad


Spare parts - I've never heard of a service department that costs its own parts. They are supplied to the service dept by the parts dept at trade price (yes, the parts dept sells them to the service dept at the same price they'd sell them to the servo down the road) and they have a RRP which is usually advised by the manufacturer...

My issue is when I can and have gone to spare parts and bought a filter at a price, then that same part is replaced during a service and I am charged over double for just the part alone .... I don't know how people can claim that they are being misjudged or unfairly labelled as ripoffs when there are clear examples of such excessive markups and overcharging. Just ask one forum member about getting a bill for over $400 for for "$170 fixed price service" :doh:


I could go on for hours about the honesty of the general public. Takes me back to the bad old days - I need a :beer:

After working in a scrutinised high volume retail industry, I agree, people are bastards .... but dealers are people too ;)

[XLR8 V8]

Oh, and this isn't meant to be a People vs. Seldo argument .... just that Seldo is the only one giving us a run for our money :lol:

[markone2]

VXSSV8: Anyone been to a Lexus or top BMW dealership lately? Do yourself a favour and go and see the standard that they set - it really is a worthwhile experience and is highly commendable. But...at a price! A mate of mine had a $3000 bill for a service on his BMW the other day, and it was not for anything too special, but they keep the car for 2 or 3 days so that it helps justify the cost.... So , there are ways and means...at a price. :cheers:

I'll second that, we recently did some repair work on a well known jockeys BMW,the quote from the well revered Southside BMW dealer was for $2600 * plus* :eek:
using genuine BMW spares and included the obligatory cappuccino in the dealers bristo…The total bill down at our greasy garage came to the handsome sum of $480.00 also using genuine BMW parts ..result happy customer plus some excellent tips… :) everyone happy

[sandmanls1]

I'm with Elmis you guys are misssing the point - how mnay times can they wind it back, the car could have literally been a "demo" vehicle" clocked up 500 kms and wound back each time just before it gets to 100km... If they can wind it back just before 100km raises the question whether they can do it after that as well, even though they said they can't..

[seldo]

Oh, and this isn't meant to be a People vs. Seldo argument .... just that Seldo is the only one giving us a run for our money :lol:
I've been completely out of the industry for years now, but I still get annoyed when many people run down the industry in general using what is often an isolated problem as typical. Yes, sure, there are the some rip-off merchants but no more so than any other industry you care to name. I wouldn't mind a little wager as to how many more so-called nice clean respected professionals are in jail for crimes against the public compared to car dealers. Try lawyers, accountants, stock-brokers for a start. And say nothing about the building industry...:shock:

[seldo]

I'm with Elmis you guys are misssing the point - how mnay times can they wind it back, the car could have literally been a "demo" vehicle" clocked up 500 kms and wound back each time just before it gets to 100km... If they can wind it back just before 100km raises the question whether they can do it after that as well, even though they said they can't..
You guys are just paranoid. It doesn't happen. These companies have too much to lose and not enough to gain. Besides which, you can't contain these practises within the company. The technician knows it, all the rest of the staff know it, they tell their partners who tell the girls at kindy etc. Very simply, it isn't worth the risk.