Will the Alloytec V6 change people's perception of Holden?

[SSbaby]

I know that pushrod engines aren't exactly the most fashionable of engine configurations, and now that Holden have an engine (V6) that's brimming with technology, do you believe it will change people's perception of Holdens, in general? To have your say please choose the most appropriate answer in the poll.

Or do you believe we still have to wait for VE to find out whether Holden builds 'world class' cars? Please feel free to comment.

[jneil]

Where is the poll???

[Danv8]

Excellent question.

Personally it would probably shut up most anti OHV people up for a while. The new V6 is a major step up from the 3800. One thing is though is the reliability is unknown. What I liked about the 3800 was its simple nature for p*ss easy servicing and had great low down torque for day to day driving. But I am waiting for the new VE really it would give plenty of time to iron out the bugs of the new HFV6. But I can't wait for the LS2 though. :D

[SSbaby]

Where is the poll???

Sorry, I was distracted by a work colleague. :doh:

The poll didn't make it. But feel free to comment, anyway. :)

[Red CV8 R]

I think it will help with getting rid of the dinosaur image of Holden with alot of people if it is done right but I cant see why all other manufacturers can build engines to this level and make them reliable and Holden cant, if it is the case then Holden should give the game away. I am more concerned about the LS2. They seem to have only just got the LS1 right after all these years why do people think the LS2 will be any different?

[jneil]

I think it will take a lot of heat off the "old pushrod technology" for the standard V6, BUT the LS1/LS2 will probably cop a lot more of it. It will be also interesting to see how people react to a capacity downsize..3.8l to 3.6l, it's not much but people may react to it just the same.

Personally, I think it's great that Holden is jumping in there with a very high tech engine that hopefully will be very reliable and hopefully it won't be recalled every 5 minutes for changes/updates.

Also as this 175/190 is there base/starting point....expect at least 190/205 in a few years with some refinements.

LS2 all the way for me though.

Jeff.

[Danv8]

I am pretty optimistic about the LS2 I think when the code has been cracked and what not we have a very high potential donk for power. If it powers the corvette which I love! I am happy. :-)

[HFV6]

A pushrod design is not necessarily old technology, this has been done to death so i wont go into it too much. It has many benefits over an OHC design, it has a lower centre of gravity and reduced weight, as well as being simpler, reducing costs of production and making it easier to service. The LS2 to come out is an extremely advanced engine. It has many features which are technologiclly advanced and cutting edge, just because of the fact that it doesnt contain overhead cams doesnt mean that it is not an advanced engine. The XR8 for example has been highly criticised for the fact that its front end is too heavy, creating body roll and a poor front/rear weight balance. The LS1 on the other hand has superior fuel economy and weighs near to nothing even though it has a larger displacement. All from a technological dinosaur.

[SSbaby]

Couldn't have said it better myself, HFV6. ;)

You're right though, the topic has been done to death, so that's why I'm keen to read comments about other people's perceptions of Holdens. The poll was supposed to elicit a response relating to the following questions:


Do you believe Holden's builds products that are truly world class?
Are Holden still way off the pace of the imports?
Does Holden need to improve their quality to be regarded as a maker of world class cars?

[LT8888]

If the Alloytec (hate that name, prefer HFV6) is as smooth, refined and reliable as the V6s from Honda, Nissan and Toyota, then I'm all for it, but until it's proven that way, then the jury's still out.

[Danv8]

Comments in between.:)

[list]
Do you believe Holden's builds products that are truly world class?

---Yes and no but they offer us cars that have RWD/AWD V8 power and great interior space.

Are Holden still way off the pace of the imports?

I would say yes with the Vectra but mainly because they are trying to flog off the premium brands. Also brand snobbery is keeping sales down as well. But that is only my opinion so don't flame me. ;-)

Does Holden need to improve their quality to be regarded as a maker of world class cars?

Improvement in quality yes! this is one of the biggest let downs in GMH is quality. I and others would like to see GMH to be a quality car builder. Although I find the quality a step up from Fords at the moment. But an increase in quality is always a good thing.

[HFV6]

Honda, Nissan and Toyota were benchmarked during the development of the HFV6, and by reports of the engine in the Cadillac CTS in the US, it has hit the mark in every area and surpaassed it in a few. Put it this way, Holden was seen as world class even with the old pushrod ECOTEC, imagine the way it will be perceived with this new engine, not to mention the fact that its 5 speed auto was used by BMW, just last year in its 5 series. I've driven a 5 series with the 3.0 inline 6 and 5L40-E and it is a great transmission with seamless changes and prompt kickdown.

[clixanup]

Do you believe Holden's builds products that are truly world class?

Couldn't export 'em if they didn't. They've been exporting cars for ages now. Even FE Holdens were exported....

With the new engine & auto, things will only get better. The 5 speed box is sure to win over a few of the swinging buyers - as will the lure of a brand new high tech V6.


Are Holden still way off the pace of the imports?

I think the fact people have been comparing the Monaro to BMWs speaks volumes. It'll continue to improve with time, but to be able to compare a Holden favourably against a European is a major milestone. Don't forget: Caprice just won COTY in Saudi Arabia where it was competing with several major Euro and US brands.


Does Holden need to improve their quality to be regarded as a maker of world class cars?

IMO, current quality levels are pretty darn good for a mass produced vehicle. As with mass production, though, there is always room for improvement.

Anyway, whichever way you look at it, there will always be people who look down upon Holdens from their 'ivory tower imports' simply because the cars are locally made. Ask a German what they think of Benzes and you'll see what I mean.

[SSbaby]

Honda, Nissan and Toyota were benchmarked during the development of the HFV6, and by reports of the engine in the Cadillac CTS in the US, it has hit the mark in every area and surpaassed it in a few. Put it this way, Holden was seen as world class even with the old pushrod ECOTEC, imagine the way it will be perceived with this new engine, not to mention the fact that its 5 speed auto was used by BMW, just last year in its 5 series. I've driven a 5 series with the 3.0 inline 6 and 5L40-E and it is a great transmission with seamless changes and prompt kickdown.

My mate owns a BMW 3-series with the aforementioned auto. It's as smooth as butter. I'm not sure if that's because of BMW's wizardry electronics or totally GM's interface with the steptronic auto.

[SSbaby]

I think the fact people have been comparing the Monaro to BMWs speaks volumes. It'll continue to improve with time, but to be able to compare a Holden favourably against a European is a major milestone. Don't forget: Caprice just won COTY in Saudi Arabia where it was competing with several major Euro and US brands.


Interesting comment. A doctor I know owns a BMW330i coupe. He recently sampled a Monaro and he was really impressed. In his view "There's no way the BMW is twice the car that Monaro is".

[seldo]

Sorry, I was distracted by a work colleague. :doh:

The poll didn't make it. But feel free to comment, anyway. :)
Don't you hate it when work gets in the way of playing on the forum ;)

[Ricko]

I was initially looking at the Super 6, but was turned off it a bit by the fact i knew the next model was going to have a different, more hi tech engine that would probably out perform the super 6 out of the box, and i knew that it was unlikely the next V8 would get a different motor (that and i like my manuals).

In the end though, i think its all in the driving, so if your happy with the way it drives, it doesnt really matter whether its got 18 valves and four camshafts or a steam engine, if you wont even test drive a car because it doesnt have multi overhead doohickies, it could be your loss.

[Danv8]

One reporter said "The 3.6-liter (220 cu in) 255 horsepower V6 growls like a junkyard dog on steroids" In a 04 Caddy CTS Road test.

CTS road test (http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadtest,view,Cadillac.spy?artid=19738&pg=1)

I might do a search on in google and see if I can find any sound clips of the HFV6.

[Venom XR]

The engine alone won't change people's perception - it'll be the engine + gearbox combo that will be the measure of the improvement Holden make to VZ, then VE.

[lizardmech]

The engine sounds really good. A 190kw 6 speed manual sounds good but I dont know if the old suspension design would change my mind.

[motomk]

Poll added

[SSbaby]

Thanks motomk :)

seldo, work always gets in the way of healthy discussion :lol:

[BA$TAD]

it's a start, they need a lot more work to do than just engine and gearbox.

[seldo]

Interesting comment. A doctor I know owns a BMW330i coupe. He recently sampled a Monaro and he was really impressed. In his view "There's no way the BMW is twice the car that Monaro is".
Quite right! My mate has a Lexus IS300 and a 4 yo Jag Sovereign and he just loves my Senator and is trying to convert his missus who is so verrry brand conscious with her Jag. He is also amazed at my service costs as after years of Jag ownership he has been so well trained that he can't believe that it doesn't cost $2500 for a service. I tell you what though - that IS300 3litre and 5sp trannie is just as smooth as cream no matter whether it's WOT or driv ms daisy. They sure do it well, and as for the service facilities and the actual quality of the service - it's worth it just for the experience...at a price

[muzza]

It's a really good start for Holden (and not before time) in upgrading their bread and butter model - a quantum leap in engine design, technology and presumably smoothness, together with a smart new auto to complement the new engine (disregarding the fact they are keeping the old 4 spd slusher with the lo-power poverty pack version).

Now, all they need to do is bring in a decent new rear suspension that's lighter than the Ford unit, and start thinking about proper traction/stability control if they want to be truly "world class".

[LSX-438]

really depends on how it is marketed. however if holden can maintain the No1 selling car spot without it, i dare say it doesnt actually matter, but can only really help.

[Ghia351]

The HFV6 engines certainly have the technical details to be a world class engines, I 'll just wait for VE before saying they now build world-class cars as this (I believe) will be the first all Australian designed platform and not a euro-originated one therefore gving Holden a real chance to showcase it total engineering ability from pencil/CAD to the last quality sticker before leaving the plant.

[ssberlina]

It's a really good start for Holden (and not before time) in upgrading their bread and butter model - a quantum leap in engine design, technology and presumably smoothness, together with a smart new auto to complement the new engine (disregarding the fact they are keeping the old 4 spd slusher with the lo-power poverty pack version).

Now, all they need to do is bring in a decent new rear suspension that's lighter than the Ford unit, and start thinking about proper traction/stability control if they want to be truly "world class".

I agree, the main complaint the yanks have with the GTO other than the no spoiler looks is the rear suspension setup and the brakes. If they address these then it will be all good, as long as the fuel consumption of the new engines match their technology.

[Ghia351]

It's a really good start for Holden (and not before time) in upgrading their bread and butter model - a quantum leap in engine design, technology and presumably smoothness, together with a smart new auto to complement the new engine (disregarding the fact they are keeping the old 4 spd slusher with the lo-power poverty pack version).

Now, all they need to do is bring in a decent new rear suspension that's lighter than the Ford unit, and start thinking about proper traction/stability control if they want to be truly "world class".

I wonder what the price difference will be between 190/A5 and 175/A4 as it has to be big enough to bother manufacturing the two and still have enough value to be worth upgrading to (option-wise) if the higher series combo is available on an Exec for eg.

[seldo]

It's a really good start for Holden (and not before time) in upgrading their bread and butter model - a quantum leap in engine design, technology and presumably smoothness, together with a smart new auto to complement the new engine (disregarding the fact they are keeping the old 4 spd slusher with the lo-power poverty pack version).

Now, all they need to do is bring in a decent new rear suspension that's lighter than the Ford unit, and start thinking about proper traction/stability control if they want to be truly "world class".
Well, I think you'll find that part of it has been answered anyway. Get ready for VDSC - Vehicle Dynamic Safety Control. It's supposed to be the duck's nuts and works really well as far as sophisticated traction and yaw control systems go.

[Ricko]

I wonder what the price difference will be between 190/A5 and 175/A4 as it has to be big enough to bother manufacturing the two and still have enough value to be worth upgrading to (option-wise) if the higher series combo is available on an Exec for eg.

I like being able to upspec a (lower) models drivetrain like that, but the car manufacturers these days seem to shun the practice. Pretty much how the SV8 came to fruition, although i think some VY V8 execs were shown here at one stage.

[ssberlina]

I like being able to upspec a (lower) models drivetrain like that, but the car manufacturers these days seem to shun the practice. Pretty much how the SV8 came to fruition, although i think some VY V8 execs were shown here at one stage.

My guess is that they wont give it as an option like the climate control which only recently has been made available on the base platform with the leather version of the SS.

I would have thought that the 175 is being primarily produced for the fleet buyers like telstra etc so as to not shock the base exec buyers with the price increase of the new engine and trans.

[Ghia351]

Well, I think you'll find that part of it has been answered anyway. Get ready for VDSC - Vehicle Dynamic Safety Control. It's supposed to be the duck's nuts and works really well as far as sophisticated traction and yaw control systems go.

Is it the same as AWD Territory's DSC?

[stato]

For mine, answer 1 is closest, but of course depends on which model Holden you have in mind. In Commodore/Statesman terms, they are good cars, for sure. As to Statesman: a great car, let down by a dud gearbox. A bit loose in the body, and particularly harsh over jointing strips in the road, compared to the 'bank vault" feel of a Mercedes, but for what it is, and for the money, its great, and I'm VERY happy. Really comes into its own as a cruiser in the country. BTW, I don't rate BM's at all. And in the survey, what's with "we all know better" re the ls1? I regard it as a masterpiece, makes the car in my opinion. Read the history of it, the pushrod decision was deliberate, GM said to a young genius named John Juriga "dial us up a new small block" and his approach was to improve on the old 350. Tick. Jag XJR if money no object, but realistically, Statesman V8 is a mighty car and I'm very happy.

[SSbaby]

And in the survey, what's with "we all know better" re the ls1? I regard it as a masterpiece, makes the car in my opinion.

I hear ya, but I was referring to the LS1's oil consumption and piston slap issues which we all hope won't be a 'characteristic' of the new V6. :)

[RICHO]

I voted "Yes" but.........

Holden have been producing a world class car for ages but there was no option, value, cost, performance, and even those who keep pointing out quality problems??? Maybe some of them, should take the blinkers off and have agood hard look at the supposed "European" quality of their Pugeot or Renault....

The ONLY area Holden have fallen down is around refinement...and now
New Smoother DOHC V6
New Gearboxes
New suspension when the VE arrives

I get really, f@#$%@ pissed off when I hear anyone talk down Aussie cars, and use Euros in the broader sense as their comparative, (Merc, BMW, Audi...you could say yes) but the others......give me a break!!

And the biggest plus, our cars Holden's esp, are only getting better.

[seldo]

Is it the same as AWD Territory's DSC?
I don't know, but I understand it's a Bosch product as used by a couple of the top end Euros.

[Frankster_P]

Hopefully Holden will touch up the interior of the VZ exec
it looks a tad cheesy compared to the BA

[Ghia351]

I don't know, but I understand it's a Bosch product as used by a couple of the top end Euros.

Then it is as the Bosch system (version 8.0) is what was referred to in a Wheels (?) article in Europe where the Bosch/Ford oz people included them in a Falcon running AWD/DSC in heavy snow.

[clixanup]

Hopefully Holden will touch up the interior of the VZ exec
it looks a tad cheesy compared to the BA

Actually, the BA interior is what put me off it. Especially the one in the Fairmont Ghia.

[Ghia351]

Actually, the BA interior is what put me off it. Especially the one in the Fairmont Ghia.
So you're the one...

[clixanup]

So you're the one...

Yep. Bought a Calais instead, because the interior is much nicer....

[Louie]

Hopefully Holden will touch up the interior of the VZ exec
it looks a tad cheesy compared to the BA
I agree as I drive an Executive. Holden must remember that this bottom end is where the bulk of there sales are & if they can build a good quality base model, -- as this is the entry point to people upgrading their cars they will keep these people as Holden people for life.
Example: Imagine someone who never considered a Holden as a choice of car & has to hire a base model new VZ for business & is impressed by its quality & refinement, you could swing this & many more to be future Holden buyers.
At the moment the biggest let downs in GMH is quality & refinement.

[large]

Holden have now added the info on the new motor and tranny on there website.
www.holden.com.au

Like the 5 speed auto with auto/manual mode and a 6 speeder manual.
175 and 190kw versions? and 3.8 litres.

[Dacious]

I don't get why people bag the Holden IRS - to me it works fine and at least as competent as any road vehicles I've driven, including a 530 Bimmer I drove. Is it because it's old?

Before I bought my car I asked Skip Taylor who drives the pace car at the F1 GP at Albert Park, the BMW M3 chase car at the MotoGP and World Superbikes at Phillip Island. He can lap the Island on street rubber faster than many V8 Supercars! And still go all weekend without scrubbing a set of tyres.

He told me he is a Ford man - on his third XR8 - but he has driven heaps of cars from both Oz V8 makers. His word - comes down to personal preferrence and they're all great value-for-money especially compared to M-series Bimmers and AMGs.

He said comparing say an XR8 and SS with the same wheel/tyre sizes the Ford chassis steers a bit more accurately on the track - the Holden gets the power down out of corners better with more controllable oversteer . On the street for 'pleasure' driving either has good reserves of safety.

Like I said, he is a Ford man but thought overall it was a wash and so close the driver makes the difference.

[muzza]

Basically what we got in terms of the Commo rear suspension was an Opel hand-me-down back in '93 - even then it was about 10 years old in design - not exactly cutting edge stuff.

And then Holden saw fit to delete the "control link" bit - fark knows why unless it was cost cutting or (me being cynical) keeping something in reserve for later so they could say "new control link IRS" - blah blah blah.

And given the tyre wear problems it has caused on large numbers of cars - triggered by crappy factory specs which were non-adjustable in standard trim on VT-VX - I reckon we could say it was a slightly flawed compromise.

But well it certainly seems to work well enough given it's vintage, it just doesn't treat wide tyres nicely as they aren't kept real vertical through the range of travel, and the control link relies on squashing the bushes to maintain toe control rather than clean pivoting of the parts.

More than a few road testers have commented upon comparing Ford and Holden performance cars that Holden/HSV cars tend to use their tyres more and the Fords tend to have better fundamental suspension set ups - (or it could be wishful thinking as they know what they are driving :p )

All the same, I'm happy with the IRS on the VY as it works one hell of a lot better than the live axle on the old VN, especially on bumpy corners.

[XLR8 V8]

It'll take more than new engines and transmissions to qualify Holden as making world class vehicles. The "refinement" just isn't there yet - from the plastics used in the interior, paint quality (though it has improved a little), to the regular failures of components like the power steering and diffs. Also, I know it's a small thing, but having the higher end "pricey" models still using the same green backlit LCDs as the low end vehicles does little for the image. Even Ford OZ have color tft screens in their higher priced models, and they're commonplace in Euro vehicles.

[Frankster_P]

Hoping they make the executive look more upmarket too
no more cheap wheel trims and scant mouldings

The BA XT has a classy integrated look to it.

[SSbaby]

It'll take more than new engines and transmissions to qualify Holden as making world class vehicles. The "refinement" just isn't there yet - from the plastics used in the interior, paint quality (though it has improved a little), to the regular failures of components like the power steering and diffs. Also, I know it's a small thing, but having the higher end "pricey" models still using the same green backlit LCDs as the low end vehicles does little for the image. Even Ford OZ have color tft screens in their higher priced models, and they're commonplace in Euro vehicles.

I agree. I don't believe Holden are making world class cars just yet, irrespective of the fact that they increasingly export cars to major destinations. I don't expect to drive out of the showroom and find that the clutch isn't perfect and then to discover that a few years on there is no upgrade to fix this issue. The old fashioned driveline clunk is also there...it's the little things that Holden need to get right. I shudder (pardon the pun) to think what driveline issues owners of LS2s will experience and the sort of aftersales support they'll get. It might be a case of deja vu. It's no fun from an ownership perspective.

[Phido]

I think Ford and Holden have come a long way, and are on the right track.. They still have issues, but things are generally getting better.

Holden moves up a notch in my books with a decent V6, and the new transmissions. I think many were disapointed when Holden moved away from the nissan engine for the VN, to the 3.8.. Yeh it was bigger and cheaper, but it wasn't the thing you were going to drive into a BMW dealership with and have all the service people crawl over in amazement.

Many of the problems we experience aren't really related directly to either Ford or Holden, but the suppliers. But things are changing there as well. Ford is sourcing bits else where or making it themselves, Holden now has better access to various upmarket global parts that GM have finally developed.

[Zantetsuken]

Hoping they make the executive look more upmarket too
no more cheap wheel trims and scant mouldings

The BA XT has a classy integrated look to it.

I think it's the unpainted plastic sides and rear that makes the Executive look cheaper than the XT as they both have hubcaps, probably the XT's hubcaps are slightly nicer but I don't want to seem like a one sided Ford fan, if you know what I mean.

Tim

[Mongy]

Ummm, world class car? You mean there are better cars in the world than Holden? :lol:

[Mongy]

I drive a new SS ute, for the price I can't think of anything better I could have purchased. My wife drives a new Astra, again for the price I can't think of anything better I could have purchased for her. For me that sums it up, if I had wanted to spend more money I would have just brought more expensive Holdens.

[seldo]

This poll seems a bit doomed, just the same as the last Republican poll was, and for the same reason in that the question was a bit like "are you still bashing your wife?" Yes or no?
To ask if the Holden is now world class, is a bit strong. I suppose, it probably is, but it's a reserved answer. Let's face it, they make a damn fine car. But is it as good as a Euro Blatmobile - yes and no! There is very little in the world that has the performance /value package that we enjoy. But, it has its archaic suspension, its warranty problems, its finish imperfections, and , I guess above all, its dealer attitude problems which can only be fixed by a corresponding change in attitude by the manufacturer. (If the manufacturer will support him, the dealer will give you almost anything!). So, I think that if they genuinely want to improve their image and reputation, Holden needs to start from the top and give their dealers the support and backup that enables them to pass it on to the consumer. Even though the reputation begins with the dealer, it can't start until the manufacturer gives him the support to make it happen.

[Evil LS1]

Ha Ha. Can't believe how many turkeys say that a new engine suddenly makes the car world class. Which world are we talking about, the third world?
Ok the alloytec engine is very good. That just leaves the pathetic driveline, trailing edge suspension, crap paint work, useless clutch (LS1), rattles, average steering, poor seats, average brakes, worlds biggest and ugliest steering wheel and crap audio.

I love my VT LS1 but it's a dinosaur that goes hard and handles reasonably well for a fat pig. I've had to spend heaps on suspension, brakes, seats, audio, and clutch, just to bring it up to scratch. And other than the clutch none of these have touched on the numerous issues with the LS1 itself.

Until VE ships commodore is is not even in the race for class and refinement. The new engine will show how ordinary the rest of the car is. Falcons not much if any better. Drive and Audi or BMW and then tell me how far Holden and Ford have to go.

I hope they get there, as they do offer good (great if you have an LS1)performance and value for money (not HSV though). It's a shame that even with VZ most of the issues will still not be addressed. Roll on 2006.

[TriShield]

Until VE ships commodore is is not even in the race for class and refinement. The new engine will show how ordinary the rest of the car is. Falcons not much if any better. Drive and Audi or BMW and then tell me how far Holden and Ford have to go.

Assuming they become that good, would you want to pay Audi and BMW prices for Fords and Holdens? ;)

[SSbaby]

As brutal as Evil LS1's post is, I agree with everything he stated.

[HSVMAN]

EvilLS1, how dare you! :lol: Yet its true to a point.... You get what you pay for....and what we get for what we pay isnt too bad. However on the horizon there are far better things and more bang for our buck with Local built cars which is great! Currently we get a pretty good product for what we pay on a world comparison. VZ will see some great technology introduction in on board electronics and handling/safety plus more power. VE on the other hand wont even resemble VZ!
I think enjoy what we got, if not do something about it (buy something else) or get a pushbike.... :)

[chuss]

I have owned and driven pretty much every commodore since the VL. I currently own a VS Berlina and drive a VY company car.

The thing that holden has to get right is the build quality. Engine and trans are great, interior/exterior looks are good, but quality always lacks. Even simple things like window seals dropping, airbag covers getting affected by heat, arm rests squashing after 3 months need to be improved. Paint fades, bumpers warping, etc... you get the drift. Even the way the doors shut after a few years.

My berlina is in mint condition inside only cause I've had to replace everything nearly twice.
When you jump in a BMW, Merc etc you notice that the finish is great and 3-6 years on the car still holds it together.

I'll continue to drive and buy holdens coz I love the fact that you can have 150-250 kws available to you in a RWD car, tow a boat, have kids and dogs in the back and not worry about power. But the over all build quality, finish has to improve.

I'm looking forward to getting behind the wheel of the new VE, it should be great. But now that I have some cash I think the grange/senator versions are going to be my target (along with my viper).

[Ghia351]

Assuming they become that good, would you want to pay Audi and BMW prices for Fords and Holdens? ;)

I personally can't see how we can expect to get Audi/BMW levels of build quality/refinement etc when our local manufactures don't get to spend the same developmental budgets or have the same level of production volumes to recoup higher R & D costs. If Toyota Australia could only rely on itself for floor pan architecture, engine design etc.. rather then take a global design coming out of multi billion dollar budget would it be any better then Holden or Ford? This is why I'm interested in VE, its Holden's first chance for Commodore to do it all off it's its own bat, chassis wise especially, as the engine is an overseas design and already considered impressive. If it's put together as well as the quality of the individual componetry, then it can be considered world-class.

[SSbaby]

I personally can't see how we can expect to get Audi/BMW levels of build quality/refinement etc when our local manufactures don't get to spend the same developmental budgets or have the same level of production volumes to recoup higher R & D costs. If Toyota Australia could only rely on itself for floor pan architecture, engine design etc.. rather then take a global design coming out of multi billion dollar budget would it be any better then Holden or Ford? This is why I'm interested in VE, its Holden's first chance for Commodore to do it all off it's its own bat, chassis wise especially, as the engine is an overseas design and already considered impressive. If it's put together as well as the quality of the individual componetry, then it can be considered world-class.

Well put Ghia ;)

The thing that Toyota has in its favour is that they make good boring cars that aren't very powerful, and therefore, not that severe on the driveline. Holden, on the other hand, do build hipo cars, which in the hands of ruthless drivers, ruin drivelines relatively easily. In fact, the driver doesn't have to be hard on the car to experience the usual driveline issues. This is no excuse for Holden by any means, if they're building hipo cars, consumers expect the cars will take the punishment without failing or deteriorating rapidly over time.

[Danv8]

I personally can't see how we can expect to get Audi/BMW levels of build quality/refinement etc when our local manufactures don't get to spend the same developmental budgets or have the same level of production volumes to recoup higher R & D costs. If Toyota Australia could only rely on itself for floor pan architecture, engine design etc.. rather then take a global design coming out of multi billion dollar budget would it be any better then Holden or Ford? This is why I'm interested in VE, its Holden's first chance for Commodore to do it all off it's its own bat, chassis wise especially, as the engine is an overseas design and already considered impressive. If it's put together as well as the quality of the individual componetry, then it can be considered world-class.

Well put.
Even BMW and Audi does not ooze the quality as they use to. But then again if someone wants to buy a 4 cylinder BMW for the same price of a V8 Calais its their choice. :-)

[Ghia351]

Well put.
Even BMW and Audi does not ooze the quality as they use to. But then again if someone wants to buy a 4 cylinder BMW for the same price of a V8 Calais its their choice. :-)
....or worse the little A-class for a rrp of $36-39K..must be the most expensive merc badge on the planet, because there sure as hell 'aint much car behind it.

[Danv8]

....or worse the little A-class for a rrp of $36-39K..must be the most expensive merc badge on the planet, because there sure as hell 'aint much car behind it.

The A class berkg! MB can make some seriously nice cars like the AMG E55 and what not and then they come up with crap like the A bloody class.
:lol:

[Phido]

I disagree.

I'm not going to claim that Australian built cars are superior in all ways to the greatest german cars. But they aren't complete shiet. They are engineered for a completely diffrent price point, for a diffrent market with completely diffrent values. But lets go through the list.

Driveline. At the moment its pretty shocking, but the improvements are iminent. Holden using the 5 speed auto as used by BMW, the HFV6 as used by caddilac, saab, Alfa and Opel. Sure there are some weaknesses in the entire lineup, but they will be phased out. Ford are looking at the ZF six speed automatic transmission as used in 7 series and jaguar until then they are using the Ion 4 speed as used by maserati in the 3200. They are also looking at the getrag six speed manual as used by the M5 and Supra. Ford uses its indigionous six cylinder, which is more than perfectly adiquate even in its first incarnation with class leading technology comparible to anything. It also uses the the modular V8, a variation used by jaguar, aston martin and lincon and exact varients used by Rover and various small scale european manfuacturers.

Suspension. Ford runs a very good double wishbone base suspension at all corners with its very vouge blade IRS out back, on paper its a wet dream. Reveiws have been extremely favourable, Motor claiming that the BA rides and handles better than a E class and better than jaguar. I don't know about that, but its certainly competitive. About the only thing its missing is alloy suspension arms and some electric gizmos. Holden's ancient suspension is behind the 8 ball being decades old, but will soon be replaced. It can handle quiet well, but at the expense of other design criteria. However Australian made vechicals make up for some of the defiencies by actually having life in it, not just clinical function. Your proberly going to have more fun attacking corners in a XR6 Turbo than a E320 or a LS430. I know I would.

Paint work on australian vechicals is that far off other makes. Sure there are some pretty shocking jobs and some of the colours seem to show orange peel etc. But then again in Australian conditions, some imported cars have struggled as well. Atleast we can get bright attractive colours.

Seats, well, from most of the international feedback, Australian seats are bloody good, atleast on sports or luxury models. Wheels XR6T in europe provided quantitive evidence to support that. I would say this is definately one of the points Australian cars are handling very well. But seats, like many things are subjective. People of diffrent sizes would give diffrent feedback.

Noise vibration and harshness. Ok, I don't think anyone is really going to claim any australian car is a good as a german luxury car or a LS430. But they are certainly better than nearly every hatchback (german or otherwise). However Ford and Holden aren't going to blow billions trying to make the cars that slightly bit better. They are generally acceptable and getting better, high priced cars are no doubt superior, and getting better but the gap seems to remain about the same. BA was a big leap on AU which was a big leap on EL. Holden has tried to improve things as well, the new engines and transmissions will help massively on this task.

Brakes on general are a disapointment. While the GTS with 6 pistons and the FPV with brembos are pretty sweet and previously were world class, they have slipped behind. Standard brakes are just plain spastic. Fords have all sorts of problems, and holden well just as bad. Hatchbacks have better front AND rear brakes. Ford should fit territory sized brakes as standard (twin piston vented 322mm front and rear), Holden should fit something the same. 4 channel abs with EBD should be standard. Premium brakes should be offered on any performance car, and comprise of much meater rotors and multipiston non flexing calipers with high performance pads. However I could point at a few cars with fairly ordinary braking hardware, some japanese and european cars would be listed.

Fords premium audio isn't bad, Holden's in my mind is pretty shocking. Ford could do with another sub in the back to add some bass. However its not shocking, Ford uses pioneer gear for most of the sound stuff. Perfectly adiquate really.

Sure there not quiet outright euro fighters, but they do have some pretty attractive qualities.. And its not like they couldn't screw together a pretty dam good car if they want to. They can, just too often they don't.

A Fairmont Ghia with a 6 speed ZF auto and the Turbo 6 engine(typhoon would be sweet) with a quieter exaust and some dam sound proofing around wheel arches and boot, underbonnet, underbody, leading aero edges etc, minus 100kg with alloy suspension, underbody aero kit, brembos would make a dam convincing arguement. Much better than a S type Jag.

[Phido]

Funny enough, specing/modifying a car to that level would place it fairly close to entry level 5 series, and you don't get the badge nor the trinkets, like voice control, and that crazy active steering thing, or laser cruise control, slightly better interior.

Ford and Holden shouldn't make cars that are lifeless replicas of BMW's and Mercs. They should really focus on getting close enough that the diffrence is forgiveable, for a much lower price point, and ten times more fun. They should also fix up the general quality of assemble and quality of components and some DECENT BRAKES.

If you want a BMW or Merc, buy one, you can get one that is affordable these days, a 1 series,a mini, a Smart or something second hand..

Falcons and commodores do offer a lot. You get the kind of safety a Merc or 5 series has, you get some impressive performance, you get absolutely huge cars (statesman is mad!), reasonable service costs, fairly advanced mechanicals, in a tidy package that makes them great practical family cars. They have short commings, but I can list stacks of international cars that are worse..

[HSVMAN]

A lot of truth spoken. HSV in particular have trialed (no doubt FPV have too) a lot of wizardry and hi tech mechanicals in their vehicles but chosen not to implement them based on cost to the consumer.
They have to keep certain models in line with what the punters are prepared to pay - on the other hand the "427 project" was canned for the same reason yet there were a lot of dissapointed buyers lining up in eager anticipation.
On build quality we are definately behind however and thats something that is being worked on - in fact right now there are specialists from General Motors U.S.A working with Holden on just that alone - from quality control and finish to delivery logistics and Dealer support. About time!!
All in all I feel we are in for some exiting local product with all the improvements we have longed for...and then some :D

[BigG]

In a nut shell - i agree with the comments above and before.

The question is - Do Holden build quality cars? will the new motor change the perception of Holden.

In my many years of driving Holdens (almost 10) from VN right up to VY, Holden have always failed to implement the latest technology, be it electronic, or physical.

This inate Australian (read Holden) formula one step forward 2 steps backward is in my opinion the single formula that hold Holden from making that benchmark car that we all desire. (A reare Link control arm in a VT GTS - is not special - it was in opels from years long before, so why not put it on all cars and make than that bit better?)

I rode in a work friends 330i coupe yesterday, it's 6 months old. She lives in town (Melbourne) and drives to work in town (melbourne) - so city driving. The average fuel economy was 5.1 Ltr/100Klms.

Now in a P/Rod V8 who cares - but it's that sort of approach (lets give as much as we can get) that puts german engineering ahead of the world, and thats why STILL German made car's are the bench mark.

Holden DO (or have access to) the technology to make better cars, Holden DO have the financial where with all. But they are content in supplying Australians poorly fitted, lagging technology cars.

In MHO The new motor in an old body will be viewd as the guinee pig not a step in to world class vehicle building. Holden now have the challenge of articulating to the market what ACTUAL value their cars bring to people as their price brackets keep creeping upward.

[BA$TAD]

Phido I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Evil LS1]

I was brutal, but I was honest. What peeves me about the commodore is that it could be very good. Attention to detail and quality control are not the exclusive domain of Luxury Euros. The Japs can do it and do it very well. Take the butt ugly Magna; driven a 5spd Sports. It is a nice piece of kit, with nice gearbox, smooth toquey engine. It's quiet, and is well put together. My commodore is a brute by comparison and that's how I love it, but what I can't abide is the purile diff, the massive clunks and backlash in the driveline and gearbox and rattles from the engine. Also the orange peel paint job is naff. These aren't difficult areas to fix up. My god the commodore driveline has been crap from VB. It also amazes me that Ford could design a great IRS in a few years and Holdens has had the arrogance to soldier on until VE and almost made it to VE with the crude cast iron boat anchor of a V6. Holden keeps saying they have quality under control (but not quality control!) but VT to VY has seen little improvement and they are universally seen as a distanct 4th in Aussie manufacturers.

VE had better be a quantum leap in refinement ( a word you can not use at the moment), because the rest of the world is not standing still. But if it get's it right it could be an awesome package. A 4wd monaro LS2 with say 350-400kw (after a bit of extra work) and Jap levels of refinement would be a an absolute weapon that could stick it to Europes and Japans finest. We are assure it will have trick IRS, but will it still use crappy McPherson struts or will it be the real deal double wishbone? I also hope it is as good looking next to the VZ as the VT was next to the VS.

As for talking about Audi and BMW prices reflecting their quality or vice versa, let's not forget the prices here are 2-3x higher than in the US. Tell me in the US the awesome M3 is less than $50K same as an SS here, which would you buy. We are screwed into the ground in this country on most things. It's not perfection I demand it's consistency and attention to detail and the build quality of at least a Camry ( :spew: ).


Come on Holden ball's in your court.

[HFV6]

Look the point is a Holden Commodore has never, is never, and will never be a 5 series BMW, E-Class Merc, S-Type Jag, or A6 Audi. It is supposed to be a low-cost volume seller which primarily serves the fleet market, and hence aims to primarily satisfy fleet managers. The fact that it costs a third the price of the cars you are benchmarking it against demonstrates it's place in the automotive world. Where it really shines is when you compare it to its direct competitors in other markets. The Opel Omega, the Ford Crown Victoria, 500 and Mondeo, the Chevrolet Impala, the Toyota Camry, the Mitsubishi Galant and the list goes on. The Holden Commodore wipes the floor with its competitors from around the world. And that tells me that Holden makes world class cars. It and Ford Australia make the best cars of their kind in the world, and they don't have to beat the premium Euros to do so, end of story.

[clixanup]

^^^^ What he said.

100% correct. Eloquently put, and makes a point which many seem to have missed here.

The fact I've heard several people say that a Monaro is better than a certain Euro even further reinforces that point.

[Mongy]

I go back to my point. Stick what I payed for my new VYIISS ute in your pocket and try and buy something else new that -
1) Goes harder
2) Handles and stops better
3) Is better finished
4) Has higher equipment levels
If there is a car out there better for the price I certainly have not seen it!

[debencha]

In a nut shell - i agree with the comments above and before.

The question is - Do Holden build quality cars? will the new motor change the perception of Holden.

In my many years of driving Holdens (almost 10) from VN right up to VY, Holden have always failed to implement the latest technology, be it electronic, or physical.

This inate Australian (read Holden) formula one step forward 2 steps backward is in my opinion the single formula that hold Holden from making that benchmark car that we all desire. (A reare Link control arm in a VT GTS - is not special - it was in opels from years long before, so why not put it on all cars and make than that bit better?)

I rode in a work friends 330i coupe yesterday, it's 6 months old. She lives in town (Melbourne) and drives to work in town (melbourne) - so city driving. The average fuel economy was 5.1 Ltr/100Klms.

Now in a P/Rod V8 who cares - but it's that sort of approach (lets give as much as we can get) that puts german engineering ahead of the world, and thats why STILL German made car's are the bench mark.

Holden DO (or have access to) the technology to make better cars, Holden DO have the financial where with all. But they are content in supplying Australians poorly fitted, lagging technology cars.

In MHO The new motor in an old body will be viewd as the guinee pig not a step in to world class vehicle building. Holden now have the challenge of articulating to the market what ACTUAL value their cars bring to people as their price brackets keep creeping upward.
they only have to keep up with there peers so that is why we only get things bit by bit........

[all4ford]

A very interesting read guys, thanks. It is good to see some patriotism here too with people saying that both Holden and Ford deliver the top goods.

In answer to the question about the Alloytech changing peoples percerption, i think yes, as the V6 currently in Holdens, while its had its complaints, it has been reliable, consistent, been able to match it with competitors for 20 years and people will now be able to say holy sh!t there is a new Holden engine which is 10-20 steps ahead of the current V6. Sorry for the dribble but im really excited about the awesome cars that we are going to see in Aus from both Holden and Ford.

[payaya]

I would change my perception but to the average joe or 70% of the people no. People dont car about engine etc, all they look at is 6 cylinder and 3.8L in the current model.

The majority of people with commodores dont even know the engine is from the VN.

To us forum users, this a going to have a huge bang on the way we look at commodores, which it wont be like that to most people that dont know about cars.

[payaya]

I have owned and driven pretty much every commodore since the VL. I currently own a VS Berlina and drive a VY company car.

The thing that holden has to get right is the build quality. Engine and trans are great, interior/exterior looks are good, but quality always lacks. Even simple things like window seals dropping, airbag covers getting affected by heat, arm rests squashing after 3 months need to be improved. Paint fades, bumpers warping, etc... you get the drift. Even the way the doors shut after a few years.

My berlina is in mint condition inside only cause I've had to replace everything nearly twice.
When you jump in a BMW, Merc etc you notice that the finish is great and 3-6 years on the car still holds it together.

I'll continue to drive and buy holdens coz I love the fact that you can have 150-250 kws available to you in a RWD car, tow a boat, have kids and dogs in the back and not worry about power. But the over all build quality, finish has to improve.

I'm looking forward to getting behind the wheel of the new VE, it should be great. But now that I have some cash I think the grange/senator versions are going to be my target (along with my viper).

how can you say the engine and tranny is great? They might feel good to you, but no offence the engine and tranny are basically bottom line stuff when it comes to refinement.

[Swordie]

What do people think the definition of world class is?

Comparing a BMW to Holden to me is two different classes of cars. A Holden would need to be compared to equivalent class in another country such as American cars. The BMW is technically a great car, too bad the 5 and 7 series does not look so good.

[payaya]

What do people think the definition of world class is?

Comparing a BMW to Holden to me is two different classes of cars. A Holden would need to be compared to equivalent class in another country such as American cars. The BMW is technically a great car, too bad the 5 and 7 series does not look so good.

exactly! Their design budgets are massive, their markets are also huge. They can put better parts in their cars.

[SSbaby]

What do people think the definition of world class is?

Comparing a BMW to Holden to me is two different classes of cars. A Holden would need to be compared to equivalent class in another country such as American cars. The BMW is technically a great car, too bad the 5 and 7 series does not look so good.

That's a good question. I believe that just because a car maker exports vehicles does not necessarily give it 'world class' status. That manufacturer must adopt world class practices to build a quality product that is admired by consumers of the destination countries. For example 'World Class' cars normally don't clunk through the driveline when in low gear and the throttle opened.

Holden building Holdens for Australians, Kiwis and the Middle East just falls short of the 'world class' status, irrespective of how good the Holden engines might be. It's the little things that make a big difference to a customer's perception of quality.

[clixanup]

Holden building Holdens for Australians, Kiwis and the Middle East just falls short of the 'world class' status, irrespective of how good the Holden engines might be.

What about Germany, England and America?

Yes, Holdens are sold in Germany too:

http://www.bittercars.com/

The silver car on their home page is a (slightly modified) Monaro. And have you forgotten about the Pontiac GTO? What about the Vauxhall version?

Those 3 markets would have to be the most difficult in the world for a car manufacturer to break in to.

You've got to have a high quality product to be able to sell in those countries.

I rest my case.

[SSbaby]

Please delete.

[SSbaby]

What about Germany, England and America?

Yes, Holdens are sold in Germany too:

http://www.bittercars.com/

The silver car on their home page is a (slightly modified) Monaro. And have you forgotten about the Pontiac GTO? What about the Vauxhall version?

Those 3 markets would have to be the most difficult in the world for a car manufacturer to break in to.

You've got to have a high quality product to be able to sell in those countries.

I rest my case.

They're not huge volumes in those countries, which is why I chose not to list every export destination. The fact that sales aren't exactly setting the world on fire in those countries could be because of the reasons we have described. Don't forget, in those countries, Holden has to compete with the likes of BMW at far less favourable exchange rates and without the tariffs and duty that are applicable to imports in our domestic market.

[clixanup]

They're not huge volumes in those countries, which is why I chose not to list every export destination. The fact that sales aren't exactly setting the world on fire in those countries could be because of the reasons we have described. Don't forget, in those countries, Holden has to compete with the likes of BMW at far less favourable exchange rates and without the tariffs and duty that are applicable to imports in our domestic market.

In my book, the fact that they're selling in those countries at all speaks volumes for their quality. They might not be high volume sellers, but they'd have to making a few bucks out of it or they wouldn't do it. Check out LS1GTO.com and see what the Yanks think of Holden's product. Most GTO owners are very pleased with their cars and are proud to be driving them. In fact, if you look at the "Aussie" section of the board, you'll see that some of them want GM to start importing Commodores....

As an aside - Erich Bitter searched worldwide for a car upon which to base the Bitter CD2. Out of all the cars available WORLDWIDE, he chose Monaro. Surely, you must be wondering why?

[Ghia351]

In my book, the fact that they're selling in those countries at all speaks volumes for their quality. They might not be high volume sellers, but they'd have to making a few bucks out of it or they wouldn't do it. Check out LS1GTO.com and see what the Yanks think of Holden's product. Most GTO owners are very pleased with their cars and are proud to be driving them. In fact, if you look at the "Aussie" section of the board, you'll see that some of them want GM to start importing Commodores....

As an aside - Erich Bitter searched worldwide for a car upon which to base the Bitter CD2. Out of all the cars available WORLDWIDE, he chose Monaro. Surely, you must be wondering why?
Relatively cheap rwd platform with big engine up front that can seat 4...there aren't that many to choose from...

[keshan]

Couldn't have said it better myself, HFV6. ;)

You're right though, the topic has been done to death, so that's why I'm keen to read comments about other people's perceptions of Holdens. The poll was supposed to elicit a response relating to the following questions:


Do you believe Holden's builds products that are truly world class?
Are Holden still way off the pace of the imports?
Does Holden need to improve their quality to be regarded as a maker of world class cars?


Yes !!!! Holden needs to improve their quality to be regarded as a maker of world class cars !!!
(i drive vt calais, i am happy but needs improvement :)

[NinetySix]

i seem to recall a lot of US reviews of the pontiac GTO stating that the build quality just wasnt up to scratch, things like the electric windows on the test car not working and a door trim falling off or something like that


not to say american cars might be any better, but i guess they were going over it with a fine tooth comb

[Phido]

I think the reason those cars are being sold overseas is not because they are superior to say premium german luxury cars, but they offer something diffrent.

The Chevy Capric owns the UAE market why? Because its a f'ing huge car, its got huge interior room, well beyond anything.. It makes a S class seem tiny. Its gots stacks of chrome, and a thumping big V8. No one offers that over there, not even other american marques.

The Vauxhall Monaro also offers something unique, thumping big aussie car, with playful dynamics, plenty quick, lots of useable space, at a price which might just may make people say yes. People aren't going into a BMW dealership and tossing up between a 330ci and a Monaro, people who are buying it I would guess want something a little diffrent from that.

Same deal in the US, not even US manufactuers have that kind of car. Closest thing would be a Mustang, which is still totally diffrent. Diffrent size, diffrent size engine, effectively diffrent seating capacity, diffrent handling style, diffrent comfort level.

Aussie cars are unique as anything can possibly be. A Commodore or Falcon shares more with each other than any other car anywhere. That uniqueness is sort of a diffrent evolutionary path to everyone else. While everyone else was switching to FWD, or AWD or trying to use bazillion electronic aids to control rear wheel drive, aussie manufacturers were doing the opposite, they were just engineering it to be a more friendly, entertaining rear wheel drive. That finds them friends overseas, because its a bit diffrent from what everyone else is doing as a whole.

That is what I think what makes them world class.. Aussie cars have a bit of a style that makes them diffrent. While the execution may not be clincially perfect, its still very effective.

[Evil LS1]

You have to despair at the patriotic claptrap out of this forum. While ever Holden has blinkered support, it will never have to improve its quality that much. 99% of people on this forum own the car for one of two reasons. It's not a ford and it's got a dirty big V8 at a reasonable price, not because of it's build quality. That's a bonus if you get it.

I love the rational that because a car is being sold OS it must be good. I suppose all those Kias and Daewoos sold here are top notch kit as well. :lol:

[ilovebeer]

I know that pushrod engines aren't exactly the most fashionable of engine configurations, and now that Holden have an engine (V6) that's brimming with technology, do you believe it will change people's perception of Holdens, in general? To have your say please choose the most appropriate answer in the poll.

Or do you believe we still have to wait for VE to find out whether Holden builds 'world class' cars? Please feel free to comment.

I did vote NO, but I`ll always by Holden. [did concider honda, but bought Holden, again! The new global buy in will soon tell......but im happy with my lot MHO!!

[Goggles]

oh my thread mining again.

[chevypower]

If you start a new thread, you get told to "use the bloody search button!"

If you use the search button, and add to an old thread, you get told "stop thread mining!"

I wonder how we can please everybody?

[theVman]

But your post didnt even make sense and and the topic is about 3 years old?? :toetap:

I could understand if it was askinga question or something. This thread did have me confused until I saw the dates. Most people generally think the alloytec is a bit unrefined and harsh. Havent driven one so can't comment really.

[SV346]

Personally i think any harshness in the alloytech is purely from the tuning and could be dialled out with a good aftermarket tune :)

[Berlina5.7]

Drive a vz v6, very ordinary. drive a ve v6, way more responsive in the throttle, turns in much better! I think they made the vz v6 crap to show hoe good the ve can be with a v6..

[Danv8]

The Alloytec V6 in my Rodeo is a pretty robust work horse.
It has not broken down on me yet and it has a fair bit of grunt. Only one big issue is that it sucks up the juice like a well paid whore when I am 4x4 driving. :)

[vxssgurl]

I know that pushrod engines aren't exactly the most fashionable of engine configurations, and now that Holden have an engine (V6) that's brimming with technology, do you believe it will change people's perception of Holdens, in general? To have your say please choose the most appropriate answer in the poll.

Or do you believe we still have to wait for VE to find out whether Holden builds 'world class' cars? Please feel free to comment.

Unless it was a V8, I wouldn't be interested anyway... (after all, this IS the LS1 forum)

But if you flip your statement on it's head, and add *cough* Ford into your statement... is that going to make people buy more Fords? Doubt it... so I would assume that simply teching out the V6 is not going to entice people into buying a Holden - unless they actually want a Holden.