VZ V8 5-Speed Auto

[HFV6]

It has been widely speculated that the Alloytec 190 wiill be the only engine in Holden's range to be coupled with a 5 speed auto transmission. This has been suggested as the level of torque that the 5L40 transmission can handle is minimal, meaning that it could not be coupled with the V8. GM does have a 5-speed auto which could handle the high torque outputs of the LS1, so i can't understand why it won't be available?

From GM Powertrain Site:

GM Powertrain to Debut New Hydra-Matic 5-Speed

2004 Cadillac XLR and SRX to Showcase GM's Most Technologically Advanced Transmission

Warren, MI - GM Powertrain's new Hydra-Matic 5L50-E 5-speed automatic transmission, developed to manage the high torque and horsepower of the next-generation Northstar 4.6-liter V8 in the 2004 Cadillac XLR and SRX, is one of the most technologically advanced transmissions on any highway or autobahn in the industry.


"The Hydra-Matic 5L50-E is the first transmission to integrate three performance features found individually on various high-performance American and European luxury sport sedans but never as a total package," according to Rich Mardeusz, GM Powertrain Hydra-Matic 5L50-E assistant chief engineer. The features include:

Driver Shift Control (DSC) - Lets the driver switch from automatic to a clutchless five-speed high-performance manual transmission. Once the driver moves the gearshift lever into DSC mode, a quick tap is all that is required for smooth, crisp upshifts or downshifts within a selected range. Available on various European sport sedans, this is the first GM application of DSC. The transmission control module (TCM) protects the powertrain when in DSC mode by monitoring vehicle speed, engine torque and the gear being used to determine if it should upshift automatically to assure the engine doesn't over-rev and damage the transmission. It also has coast clutches in every gear, which provide engine braking in all five gears so the vehicle doesn't free wheel if the driver removes their foot off the accelerator.
Performance Algorithm Liftfoot (PAL) - PAL prevents upshifts while maintaining engine braking following continuous performance driving. The TCM monitors driver behavior to determine whether or not to enable this feature. If the system detects a drop in vehicle speed prior to entering a turn, up to two downshifts can occur to provide the driver with maximum vehicle performance.
Performance Algorithm Shifting (PAS) - The transmission controller modifies the automatic gear selection during closed throttle high lateral acceleration maneuvers, downshifting with nearly synchronous matching engine speed control for quick power up when the throttle is reopened. This feature is enabled instantaneously once the TCM recognizes a high lateral g input.
The 5L50-E transmission is a modification of the Hydra-Matic 5L40-E transmission used in Cadillac CTS.

"The 5L50-E was designed specifically to manage the high torque and horsepower of the next generation Northstar 4.6-liter V8, while combining the convenience of an automatic transmission with the feel of a high-performance manual transmission," said Mardeusz. "And it does it in the same size package as the 5L40-E."

To meet the performance demands of the new Northstar, the 5L50-E was designed to manage at least a 25 percent increase in horsepower and torque over the existing 5L40-E. Among its host of performance features, the 5L50-E gives drivers the ability to partially override the normal automatic gear selection for greater control when more aggressive driving performance is desired.

Gear
Gear Ratios

1st
3.42

2nd
2.215

3rd
1.60

4th
1.00

5th
0.76

Reverse
3.02

The 5L40 does not come standard with a tiptronic style shift capability, so this feature must have been adapted for use on the 5L40 from the 5L50. Surely costs must not be too different between the two transmissions, and it would be very strange to ask a customer to upgrade from a smooth, refined, world class 5 speed auto/3.6 litre engine combo, to an unrefined, clunky, archaic 4-speed auto/5.7 litre engine combo, with far inferior refinement and fuel consumption.

[SSbaby]

They'd want to be sure that BMW are happy with it first. :rolleyes:

Cost I'd suspect. :(

[HFV6]

The transmission is simply an updated version of the 5L40, modified to handle more torque. There would be a similar jump in price fron the 4L60 to the 5L40, but they still did that? The transmission has been available for over a year now, so costs would have been reduced also.

[Danv8]

Dunno about you lot but I find 4 speed is enough in an auto.
Mercedes has gone nuts with the 7 speed auto's. :p

[HFV6]

More speeds equal better fuel consumption and better performance. Also the 5 speed is far more refined than the old 4 speed.

[Danv8]

Meh rather a manual really. :)

[rs2000]

and it would be very strange to ask a customer to upgrade from a smooth, refined, world class 5 speed auto/3.6 litre engine combo, to an unrefined, clunky, archaic 4-speed auto/5.7 litre engine combo, with far inferior refinement and fuel consumption.[/QUOTE]


Holden has a history of doing this. one only has to remember back to the vl where the 6 had a 4speed auto and the v8 had the 3 speed. :lol:

[Ghia351]

Dunno about you lot but I find 4 speed is enough in an auto.
Mercedes has gone nuts with the 7 speed auto's. :p

I thought the same until I drove a six speed auto and it transformed the car, as revs were lower for any given speed, there was a lower rev drop between gears keeping things on the boil incredibly well, changes were shock free as the tacho needle was really the best way to see that a change had been made. A lower first gear gave greater off line punch and higher top gear lowered cruise revs.

[XR6 Martin]

What makes you think an Auto designed for a 4.6L can take the torque of a 6.0L? The C6 Corvette will still run a 4speed, so that means to me that they dont have a 5speed that can handle the power.

[Danv8]

I guess when I get a chance to test drive a VZ 190kw with the 5A i would see for myself.

Only thing I really hate about auto's is the cost to repair them when they give way.

Whats next CVT like they use in Audi's. ?

[dean]

When you look at the model line-up: 4l40e, 5l50e, 4l60e/65e, 4l80e/85e, etc - each is designed for a higher range of engine sizes and torque capacity/vehcle size/weight. I would think that until they produce the 5l60e/65e (or equivelent) there wont be a 5sp auto behind a GenIII/IV.

[V-Car]

The problem with using the 5L50-E is that, as its just an higher torque rated 5L40-E, it can still only handle the 420Nm of the 4.6 Northstar rather than the (up to) 510Nm of the of the LS1/C4B which use the 4L60-E/4L65-E.
The new 6 speed should be out in late 2005, just in time for the VE.

[SSbaby]

Quote from drive.com.au (http://www.drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2004/07/16/FFXEWHF7PWD.html) re Holden's current 4-spd auto... :lol:


It's just the sort of engine and transmission combination for which the Commodore chassis cries out and GM's vehicle line director for prestige cars in the US, Charles Klein, was incredulous when told Holden was still using the four-speed transmission. "It's a truck box!" was his comment. Nevertheless, the four-speeder will be upgraded and used with the 175kW version of the new engine.

[V-Car]

Did he also tell all the owners of Corvettes, Camaros, and Firebirds that their sports cars had trucks transmissions! :rolleyes: :lol:
Until the 6-speed is out, the Corvette will continue to use a 'truck' trans. :p

[Danv8]

Truck geabox = strong. :p

[Ghia351]

Quote from drive.com.au (http://www.drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2004/07/16/FFXEWHF7PWD.html) re Holden's current 4-spd auto... :lol:

It just shows how competitive/price sensitive the lower spec/fleet market is. Until a VZ is tested we won't know the real drive quality/performance/economy differences between the two engines and gearboxes or whether you can option the higher series engine in an Exec for eg. As a fleet buyer I would probably prefer if it wasn't an option on base models or a considerably higher option to protect my resale because if i were a private buyer looking at VZ's in say three years I would try and get the 190/A5 if it provided a much more superior car to drive.

[SSbaby]

I stand corrected but I think the C5 GM 4-spd auto is different to the one Holden use in the Commodore. The C5 auto is more refined, I believe.

[Ghia351]

Quote from drive.com.au (http://www.drive.com.au/news/article.asp?article=http://drive.fairfax.com.au/content-new/news/general/2004/07/16/FFXEWHF7PWD.html) re Holden's current 4-spd auto... :lol:

He obviously doesn't set the inter-company pricing structure between the GM and Holden otherwise he should give accounts a call and say "let Holden have the A5 at A4 price".

[V-Car]

I stand corrected but I think the C5 GM 4-spd auto is different to the one Holden use in the Commodore. The C5 auto is more refined, I believe.

The C5 uses the same 4L65-E trans as used behind 300kw (and other) Holdens.

[Danv8]

I guess LS1 edit can help to refine the 4A slusher to overide the cruddy factory setting. But then there is the LS2 edit to come by.

[V-Car]

It just shows how competitive/price sensitive the lower spec/fleet market is.

I reckon the 175/4 speed will just be a price leader to keep the base price looking good. ;)
Probably will be hard to find one, just like A/C being optional, but try finding one without it.
They will build them, but not many.
They would be a dog on the used market.
Remember how long the 3.2lt lasted in the EA?
No one wanted them with the 3.9lt available, and they were dumped by Dec '88.

[Danv8]

If the 3.2 6 had MPFI instead of the silly CPI system I think it would of been much better. Ford shouldn't of bothered with CPI at all.

[Goggs]

I guess when I get a chance to test drive a VZ 190kw with the 5A i would see for myself.

Only thing I really hate about auto's is the cost to repair them when they give way.

Whats next CVT like they use in Audi's. ?

I haven't read much on this transmission, but tell me is this what they call a "Constantly Variable Transmission"?? Cos if it is, the same thing (in principle anyway) is being used now on tractors being sold by the two big hitters in the Aust market, John Deere and CaseIH. They've been out for around 3 years now I think. (Sorry to throw the agricultural reference in!! :p )

[SSbaby]

I reckon the 175/4 speed will just be a price leader to keep the base price looking good.
Probably will be hard to find one, just like A/C being optional, but try finding one without it.
They will build them, but not many.
They would be a dog on the used market.
Remember how long the 3.2lt lasted in the EA?
No one wanted them with the 3.9lt available, and they were dumped by Dec '88.
Or the V6 S/C Monaro at $10K less than the CV8. :lol:

[Ghia351]

Remember how long the 3.2lt lasted in the EA?

Shorter then a fart inside a hot car....

[Evil LS1]

Man they could put telepathically controlled 12 speed auto in if they want and it would still be a POS slush box. Why must we persist with these complex craptastic gearboxes. Juts give us a SMG with full auto overide if you're lazy bastard ala M3. That way you get a real manual with it's far superior response and far simpler, and it can be a good auto as well. :box:

[debencha]

the less grunt you have the more gears you need,with a v8 4 is plenty as we have that magical device called a tourqe converter,remember 2 speed glide they worked ok..the dump trucks at work only use a 7 speed and only have 2250 rpm to use.the only reason for cars to have more gears is for marketing........

[the mooch]

Man they could put telepathically controlled 12 speed auto in if they want and it would still be a POS slush box. Why must we persist with these complex craptastic gearboxes. Juts give us a SMG with full auto overide if you're lazy bastard ala M3. That way you get a real manual with it's far superior response and far simpler, and it can be a good auto as well. :box:
here, here! leave autos to those not interested in driving (they probably don't know what a transmission is anyway) and give us manuals any day! :)

[mavss]

here, here! leave autos to those not interested in driving (they probably don't know what a transmission is anyway) and give us manuals any day! :)
Hey !!! :bash:

[Goggles]

Surely costs must not be too different between the two transmissions, and it would be very strange to ask a customer to upgrade from a smooth, refined, world class 5 speed auto/3.6 litre engine combo, to an unrefined, clunky, archaic 4-speed auto/5.7 litre engine combo, with far inferior refinement and fuel consumption.

I'm not sure your argument holds much weight......I think most of us who drive V8s would never go back to anything else (unless things went pear shaped financially).

If I could get an engine that has 105kW more, the fuel consumption is not much worse and the price is only a few thou difference, then I know which engine I would choose, regardless of the transmission mated to the V8.

anyway, I would choose a manual over an auto any day.

[HFV6]

Nah you've got me all wrong mate. I was speaking from a purely marketing perspective. The average Joe who buys a V8 commodore generally doesnt have the same preferences as you and I. All i'm saying is, it is a bit odd for the most premium product to have the shittiest transmission. Upgrading from a fantastic 5 speed auto, to a crappy 4 speed is a bit of a dudd move in anyone's books.

[strife]

isnt it getting the 5l40e and there is still a 4 speed auto in the mix ?


http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/previewpage?019404

[strife]

The C5 uses the same 4L65-E trans as used behind 300kw (and other) Holdens.


I thought the C5 only had the 4l60e and the c6 has the 4l65e

[payaya]

I haven't read much on this transmission, but tell me is this what they call a "Constantly Variable Transmission"?? Cos if it is, the same thing (in principle anyway) is being used now on tractors being sold by the two big hitters in the Aust market, John Deere and CaseIH. They've been out for around 3 years now I think. (Sorry to throw the agricultural reference in!! :p )

i know people with this tranny. But i dont think people would like this tranny in a performance car, because its like driving a car with a 1 speed gearbox. Imagine having an exhuast on one, wont sound good.

[V-Car]

isnt it getting the 5l40e and there is still a 4 speed auto in the mix ?

Which engine are you talking about Cam?
I thought the 190 was the only engine getting the 5L40.
The 175 and the V8 will still have 4 speeds wont they?

[V-Car]

I thought the C5 only had the 4l60e and the c6 has the 4l65e

I think youre right Cam, i should have said C6...im getting my series mixed up. :doh:

[V-Car]

i know people with this tranny. But i dont think people would like this tranny in a performance car, because its like driving a car with a 1 speed gearbox. Imagine having an exhuast on one, wont sound good.

papaya, forget about the CVT in the old Nissan Micra, the new generation of CVT are a whole different ball game.
With the latest software controls, these trans can be like a 1 speed, or can be programmed to 'feel' like they have as many gears as you want.
6, 7, 8 or whatever with either full manual control over what ratio the driver wants, or full auto with what seems like it is actually changing ratios.
Maybe these trans are the way of the future with their infinitely variable amount of ratios they can be programmed with.
Some manufacturers are spending big dollars on their development.

[VX2VESS]

Man they could put telepathically controlled 12 speed auto in if they want and it would still be a POS slush box. Why must we persist with these complex craptastic gearboxes. Juts give us a SMG with full auto overide if you're lazy bastard ala M3. That way you get a real manual with it's far superior response and far simpler, and it can be a good auto as well. :box:

i think you'll find it is. or what i haeard a year ago it would be a manual type box with auto change paddles like an old F1.so would have engine braking like a manual.

also i;m pretty sure the BMW box is made by GM. GM were going to combine the featues of the BMW box with some other box i forget now. this would be the new v8 box.

these type of autos change faster than any clutch and shifter ever will. the only thing i hate about auto is the lack of real engine braking and control of what gear you want for a corner. now if i can have a manual without a clutch or missed shifts i'll take it.

[Evil LS1]

Not true Steve. The M3 can shift as fast as 80ms and the new M5 will cut that again to 60ms. You can manualize an auto all you like but it is still an auto, still using a viscous liquid and torque converter to slusherize the experience. It will never shift as fast a true manual. F1 has never ever entertained the idea of using autos over manuals nor has the Indy car or Aust touring cars. And the point I was making these autos are now incredibly complex and cost a bomb to replace out of warranty. Why keep spending dollars on this when a SMG manual is lighter, less complex, more responsive and can be fully auto-ized(!) if that's what you want (maybe you are an amputee or 90 years old :p ).

[HFV6]

The fact is that a good SMG box like that found in the M3 and M5 will never be as smooth and intuitive to drive as the 6 speed ZF box used by BMW or even the new 5 Speed of the Alloytec 190. Whether you want to admit it or not, autos do possess benefits over manuals, thats why they outsell manuals, across the entire commodore and HSV range. It may not be your preference, but it is the preference of many.

[the mooch]

The fact is that a good SMG box like that found in the M3 and M5 will never be as smooth and intuitive to drive as the 6 speed ZF box used by BMW or even the new 5 Speed of the Alloytec 190. Whether you want to admit it or not, autos do possess benefits over manuals, thats why they outsell manuals, across the entire commodore and HSV range. It may not be your preference, but it is the preference of many.
Never say never. Time will only improve the development of SMG boxes, to the point where true autos will become obsolete (I hope!). The only reason they outsell manuals imho is because we humans have become a bunch of lazy bastards!

[The Griff]

The latest technology is two manual gearboxes in the one case. There was an article in Wheels about it. It has two clutches in a concentric arrangement for two 3 speed gear sets giving 6 gears in total. When left in auto mode it preselects the next gear which is in the other gear set to the current driven one and lets out one clutch whilst bring in the other to change gear. There is no interuption to power like a normal manual and no power losses like an auto. Left in auto mode the changes are supposed to be as smooth as a normal auto. I can't remember all the details but I think they can still be used as a full manual, with the only drawback being they are fully sequential.

[VX2VESS]

6l80e manual shifting clutchless (as in foot) manual, has a symetrical round housing, shorter and lighter than the th700. take 600 nm standard.

if a clutch and manual shifter is so fast why did F1s go away from them.

a manual without a clutch and a flick of a paddle without taking your hand off the wheel, who wouldn't want that. got to be faster and safer. hold gears through corners etc without breaking the box. no missed shifts

don't know any more detials, won't be a F! box but better than what we have.

[V-Car]

6l80e manual shifting clutchless (as in foot) manual, has a symetrical round housing, shorter and lighter than the th700. take 600 nm standard.

if a clutch and manual shifter is so fast why did F1s go away from them.

a manual without a clutch and a flick of a paddle without taking your hand off the wheel, who wouldn't want that. got to be faster and safer. hold gears through corners etc without breaking the box. no missed shifts

don't know any more detials, won't be a F! box but better than what we have.

The 6L80E is not a manual trans, its just a regular automatic with tiptronic type shifts via paddles or tap up/down like the 5L40E in the VZ or the 4 speed in the BA.
It was first seen in the Buick Velite (VE_LITE ;) ) concept car thats built on the Holden Zeta platform.

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/concept_cars/2004/4/04_ny_auto_show_preview_3/

The trans will be built at the Willow Run plant that already makes the heavy duty 4L80E, which is basically a 4speed electronically controlled version of the T400.
It will appear in the VE.

http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/news/press2.htm

[crYnOid]

The 6L80E is not a manual trans

Correct, but read this pdf file (http://media.gm.com/division/2004_prodinfo/tech_displays/powertrain/planetary_manual.pdf) for what vt2vx is talking about. Here is the 6L80E info pdf. (http://media.gm.com/division/2004_prodinfo/tech_displays/powertrain/rwd_6speed.pdf)

For the lazy, the tranny is basically a manually controlled 6L80E auto but with a dry clutch.

[cutter bob]

Not true Steve. The M3 can shift as fast as 80ms and the new M5 will cut that again to 60ms. You can manualize an auto all you like but it is still an auto, still using a viscous liquid and torque converter to slusherize the experience. It will never shift as fast a true manual. F1 has never ever entertained the idea of using autos over manuals nor has the Indy car or Aust touring cars. And the point I was making these autos are now incredibly complex and cost a bomb to replace out of warranty. Why keep spending dollars on this when a SMG manual is lighter, less complex, more responsive and can be fully auto-ized(!) if that's what you want (maybe you are an amputee or 90 years old :p ).



i know each have there pro's and con's but i just get more enjoyment out of driving a manual and i feel like i have more control over the car!!!..... i just sold my acclaim which was my first and sworn to be last auto car i will ever own. i know the a4 there got now isn't good.... (well in my opion it was spawned by the devil :mad: ) but no matter how go or bad the auto is nothing beats driving a good V8 manual!!!

thats just my 2 cents

[debencha]

a good v8 manual is good only for about 10% of the time,the rest is stuffed up by traffic and drive train failures..but yes that 10% is great

[Swordie]

Off the top of my head BMW has a 5 speed auto on their standard V8s. It's no more economical or faster than the Holden.

[cutter bob]

a good v8 manual is good only for about 10% of the time,the rest is stuffed up by traffic and drive train failures..but yes that 10% is great


my opion is a bit byass because i work nights, so i quite often forget what traffic is!!! :D

[V-Car]

Apparently, Audi's DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) is the ducks nuts.
Better than BMW's SMG and Ferrari's system.
Has two clutches, and a bit like an old pre-selector gearbox in that say while you're in 2nd, 3rd gear is already being selected, so there is a seemless progression of power.
This type of box would probably be way too expensive though for a Commodore, but imagine how good one of these would be behind a gen3! :drool:
Apart from the TT 3.2 Quattro, its also available here in the new A3 2.0 TDI diesel.
Not that id be buying one, but i might just have to go have a drive to see how good it is. :)

http://www.audi.com/com/en/new_cars/driveline_suspension/directshiftgearbox/technicaldetails/technicaldetails.jsp

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/0305_audiTT/

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article_id=7869

http://www.motorcities.com/contents/03H39394392428.html

[VX2VESS]

Correct, but read this pdf file (http://media.gm.com/division/2004_prodinfo/tech_displays/powertrain/planetary_manual.pdf) for what vt2vx is talking about. Here is the 6L80E info pdf. (http://media.gm.com/division/2004_prodinfo/tech_displays/powertrain/rwd_6speed.pdf)

For the lazy, the tranny is basically a manually controlled 6L80E auto but with a dry clutch.


normally i can see pdf files but get blank pages on these links

suzzed that wanted to check adobe for updates but that window was behind many others

[chevypower]

705Nm maximum torque through the tranny??? Well we can forget the idea of a GTS-R coming out with a supercharged 8.1L V8!!! Unless they use the Allison 5spd auto?

[SV99]

Go the Truck Box :-P :booty:

but the current 4spd is hidious,

my 12yr old EBII falcon shifts better and smoother than the auto in Dads VXII work wagon.

they have to do something. because it sucks.

a refined 4 or a new 5spd would be cool.

i would sell my car and maybe think about gettin a commodore

[Swordie]

I don't know what all the fuss is about with the Holden auto. Mine works fine and have no complaints.

I thought the Ford 4 speed autos back in the EA and EB days were not as reliable as Holden's.

[SV99]

Series 2 EB

not one drama with it. runs fine. but the EA 3spd and EA/EB1 4spd was a dog.

:cool:

[NASSTY]

G'day All,

Interesting thread this one. I'm currently building an AC Cobra replica using Gen3 or 4 power and my trans of choice is an auto. Why? Well my cobra will weigh about 1100kg and, after the blower is on, about 400rwkw. Power to weight will be crazy! :lol: The car will mainly be a cruiser but it will see the odd track day and drag strip. :mad:

Changing manual gears with this amount of grunt is a waste of time especially when making full boost and I think it will make the car much more enjoyable and easier to drive. I always thought my cobra would have a manual, but after driving one that was blown and a auto, the auto made sense. I also thought having more gears than 4 would be beneficial but after driving a few HSV's with autos, for my purposes, 4 gears will be enough.

Cars are getting heavier again nowadays, probably in response to manufacturers trying to make their cars safer. 5 or more gears, in a heavy car, will increase accelleration, mpg and smoothness.

Anyway, by the time the VZ is released, GM should have finished developing their new 6 speed auto for the Gen4. If it's anything like BMW's 6 speeder, the top 2 gears are overdrives. Yep that 6th gear is only good for emissions and marketing, just like Holden's 6 speed manual :bash:

Cheers

[chevypower]

I quite like the 6th gear being an over-drive for cruising. I thought i would not like it cos of what I read about it, but the motor seems to pull it along enough for my liking even below 100km/h Anyways, the Gen IV will have over 100Nm more than the Gen 3... I am sure this will help it :-)

[Swordie]

Auto transmissions have come along way, back in the 60's they were 2 speed.

[NASSTY]

Auto transmissions have come along way, back in the 60's they were 2 speed.

In some apps 2 speed is fine. I was recently a passenger in a cobra with a stroked windsor 383ci running a huge vortex blower w/ intercooler. It was proven on the engine dyno at 850hp :eek:

It's transmission was a custom 2 speed powerglide. I think it had one gear too many :confused: It didn't need two gears. I've also driven a similar powered cobra with about 650hp with 3000 stall and locked into top gear. Never driven a car b4 that needed only one gear! Despite this I went from 60 to 130km in about 3 sec flat! :lol: I'm not kidding. That's power to weight for ya! :D

[sandmanls1]

bmw auto behind the v8's is a zf six speed also used by audi and jag. Ford was rumoured to be putting it into the high end BA's..

also merc has a 7 speed auto for the E500 and new SLK.

[Ghia351]

Off the top of my head BMW has a 5 speed auto on their standard V8s. It's no more economical or faster than the Holden.

Generally I thought BMW's of Commodore's size weigh more and don't have V8's over 4.4 litres although i think the X5 has a 4.6L in top spec so they are still a whole one litre smaller in capacity. So they're producing similar power figures from smaller engines in heavier bodies and still are very quick...sure they cost a lot more.

[nemesis]

Having driven a bunch of cars with different g/boxes, i feel the need to add my 2c worth:

1. SMG - if properly sorted, the best - manual when u want it , auto when u don't.
2. Manual - Obviously
3. New generation CVT very smooth, manual option when needed.
4. Good Auto - still a slow auto but can be shifted manually and held in gear
5. Commodore/ Lumina 4sp Auto - Dumb as a box of hammers! While it may work fine, as someone said, this means put it in D and go.. anything more enthusiast confuses it and it doesn't seem to like being changed manually.. even though the LS1 sounds great on the overrun...


Still I will have to take what GM offer as legally I have to have an auto if I want a Lumina V8!!

[chevypower]

Generally I thought BMW's of Commodore's size weigh more and don't have V8's over 4.4 litres although i think the X5 has a 4.6L in top spec so they are still a whole one litre smaller in capacity. So they're producing similar power figures from smaller engines in heavier bodies and still are very quick...sure they cost a lot more.

Chevy make the 4.8L V8 (same size as the BMW X5 Sports) I am sure they can get the power of that to match the 5.7 - but is there a good reason why a 4.8L would be better?

[Ghia351]

Chevy make the 4.8L V8 (same size as the BMW X5 Sports) I am sure they can get the power of that to match the 5.7 - but is there a good reason why a 4.8L would be better?

I don't know anything about the smaller chevy, so my first few questions would be is it more reliable, more efficient, lighter, as torquey as a 5.7 and if its yes to all then I would guess its a "better" engine? Except marketing would hate to have a smaller donk then the opposition.

[chevypower]

I would doubt that the increased bore and stroke measurements on the 5.7 over the 4.8 affects the reliability, what it would do is change the power and torque characteristics at different stages of rpm. If you had the 4.8 putting out the same peak torque and power as the 5.7, it would have a different curve, it would also have to work harder to do the same job such as letting in more air and fuel to get the power. Bottom line is, if you want more power you pay for increase in fuel consumption however its done. Most people would say the 5.7L Chevy is pretty economical. Being lighter? I doubt it, it uses the same block. Well in the truck applications it would be heavier because the 4.8 uses an iron block (same design though) I have read posts of Chevy Tahoe owners saying the 5.3 gets better fuel economy than the 4.8

[Evil LS1]

if a clutch and manual shifter is so fast why did F1s go away from them.

They did not. They have always been true manuals. The shift was full sequentialized.

This article explains all:

The Formula One™ Gearbox

An F1™ car's gearbox is quite like any normal gearbox in the way it is designed. Like any gearbox the F1™ gearbox uses a clutch driving a manual set of 6 or seven gears. Recently some teams are adapting a newly revolutionary clutchless gearbox which will be discussed at a later time. In an F1™ car the gearbox sits between the differential and the engine where the rear suspension arms are mounted and attached to the gearbox itself. A wide range of materials can be used to cast the shell of an F1™ gearbox and it all comes down to a designer decision on weight, and structural integrity. Traditionally a gearbox is cast out of an aluminum alloy but some teams also use composites like carbon-fibre to complete the whole casing to allow a better performance from the rear suspension. Technically a composite has different effects to heat and expansion to a metallic casing and therefore most designs use a variety of materials to cast different components on the gearbox itself. Some gearboxes can have a cast metallic section on the casing where the gear case will reside internally but use a composite material where the suspension resides. Gear selection is done by advanced electronic systems and paddles on the driver's steering wheel which allows the upshift and downshift procedures to be done via a click of either the left or right paddle. As a gear is selected through the steering wheel the electronic system automatically decides the correct sequence to send to the gearbox either during an upshift or a downshift. During upshifts the electronics will automatically cut the ignition between shifts and during downshifts the throttle will be blipped. The electronic systems act as a backbone to the gearbox itself therefore if the electronics were to fail the electronic gear selection method itself will cease to function. This has changed throughout the years as on a conventional gearbox gearbox selection is down through levers or sticks with a clutch to manually select the next gear. The electronics themselves are used as a mean to minimize the amount of human intervention between driver and system so that it reduces the amount of human error like missing a shift. The clutch can be manually used as well from the steering wheel and now this year (2004) drivers have to use them at the beginning of a race since launch control has now been banned. Teams have been seen testing a variety of ways to launch the car without an extensive amount of wheelspin. Methods can include a system that if the clutch if dropped quickly the engine will remain running and will not die right away.


There has never ben a automatic used in F1, or V8 super cars, or Indycar.

Like I say there can be no reason for favouring a complex automatic over a much simpler SMG. The M3 has 8 auto modes; the gearshifts can be slurred as much as you like if you are some tosser that worries about not spilling your latte during shifts :lol: