Anyone seen Michael Moore's Farenheit 9/11

[F6 Hoon]

Went and saw it on Saturday night. What an interesting movie. I always thought George W. Bush was an idiot - now I know why. Makes one wonder why the war on Iraq was instigated, and why we are involved in it. Probably so we can drive our cars. Good on Michael Moore for making this documentary and bringing the information to the main stream public - something most news agencies are not willing to do.

[SSbaby]

Yes, I saw it on Saturday. I was thinking about whether I should post here about the movie as not everybody would have seen it. But since you raised the topic ... :D

I'm convinced, George W. Bush really is satan.

Michael Moore really is a brave man.

[Kirium]

I've saw it last week, and found it to be an excellent movie. not what i'd call a documentary, because they are, by definition, supposed to present even and unbiased views of a topic, which F9/11 certainly does not. I also think Michael Moore is a very clever film-maker and I did question wether the entire movie was entirely honest, which i think it was, but in a very clever, biased way...

I was shocked at some of the connections the Bush family had, and I feel the world was duped into a needless, personal war. I personally despise "Dubbya" and if he's re-elected in November, God help us all...

[dean]

Brilliant film, real eye opener (may have been somewhat biased, but nothing which suprises me one bit). Did someone say Nazi?

[F6 Hoon]

I used the word 'documentary' loosely, but Michael Moore doesn't deny the fact that he puts his own spin on it. What cannot be argued is the USA's 9/11 Commission Report Confirms Key Fahrenheit 9/11 Facts.

[vt2vx]

bet bush wasn't happy about this before the election. his opponents probably helped pay for it lol.

[nickh]

i havent had the chance to see it yet but alot of what is commented on and show ive already know for a long long time..

the news we are shown here is a sad inditement on our broadcasters as they very very rarly show news that is not opinionated with western/ american views...If your lucky enough to have satlite tv you actully get to see the real news which 9 times out of 10 are unbiased

heres a good link

http://cronus.com/bushresume/

u might have to cut n paste into a new window...

[Roddy]

Saw it. Had the usual cheap shots, clever editing etc, but Bush's connections to Middle East money are scary at best. Most of the theatre were in shock at what they saw.

My question is.....what did Howard stand to gain from joining Bush in Iraq? There has to be some kickback somewhere.

[SSbaby]

I reckon the statement, "the world was duped..." is a bit of an insult to our intelligence. Before the war, North Korea openly admitted they had nuclear weapons yet Bush was determined to go after Iraq and not Bin Laden... there was never a terrorist link to Iraq. It was always a war for oil and those with vested interests also thought it was good for the American economy.

Pity the poor soldiers, serving in battle for ... Bush's (& friends) personal cause.
:soap:

[vt2vx]

continued protection and free trade maybe

[Roddy]

continued protection and free trade maybe

I was thinking along the lines of a nice senior exec position with the Carlyle Group or Halliburton. :lol:

Although Howard's son is currently working on Bush's re-election campaign, so who knows.

[Roddy]

I reckon the statement, "the world was duped..." is a bit of an insult to our intelligence. Before the war, North Korea openly admitted they had nuclear weapons yet Bush was determined to go after Iraq and not Bin Laden... there was never a terrorist link to Iraq. It was always a war for oil and those with vested interests also thought it was good for the American economy.

Pity the poor soldiers, serving in battle for ... Bush's (& friends) personal cause.
:soap:

Good point SS, considering the unprecedented anti-war protests not seen for decades, ex UN guys like Butler, Ritter and current guy Blix expressing doubt over the WMD claims, Andrew Wilkie resigning etc. Did anyone really believe Powell's computer-animated biological weapons truck at the UN? Not me.

Funny enough, as Blix expressed more and more doubt about WMD's, the Shrub admin became more and more desperate to prosecute the war ASAP.

Coincidence?

For me, the best one was Powell in 2000 saying that Iraq's WMD program was defunct. I mean really, are we that stupid to believe Iraq resurrected the program in a mere 12 months, to the point they were 45 minutes away from launching biochem weapons? Again, not me.

[XA coupe]

when I get to work I will post a link to some interesting stuff about that movie.
All I will say is that you can't always believe what you see/read.
That movie is a clever concoction of half truths, clever editing and outright crap.
If Michael Moore had any credibility it was evapourated with that 'documentary' .. in my opinion at least.
For the record, I am not a Bush supporter or anything like that.. I hate the lies that politicians spread as well as left wing muck rakers.

[TriShield]

In the US Moore touted it as a factual documentary and the "facts" portrayed were so thoroughly and widely debunked that he started calling it a satirical film meant to simply entertain.

Don't take Moore's stuff as the 100% solid gold truth my friends, because his latest most certainly isn't. In fact it's probably his most inaccurate, woefully biased film yet.

[v8 ute]

I'm convinced, George W. Bush really is satan.

No George W. Bush is not Satan...His Dad is, George W. is Son of Satan.



Michael Moore really is a brave man.

That he is, good on him for putting it on to Celuloid.

I wonder why the American Govt. have never gone in to help the Kurds, Tibetans, Cambodians, Armenians... ohh that's right they don't have oil.

[Roddy]

That movie is a clever concoction of half truths, clever editing and outright crap.


I agree. However, Bush's ties to Middle East money are very well documented, and extremely dodgy at best. Even if only 5% of that film has any credibility, we should all be concerned.

[VooDoo]

Just like "bowling for Colimbine" its just another round of crap and IMHO is a waste of time watching.

[VX SS]

So who ever has believed politicians dont lie or look after themselves. Political debates are very much biased and never reported accurately.

Always love Fox, Fair and Balanced ha not that I have ever seen.

Mr Moore I would take with a grain of salt, whats his real angle wouldnt be making money by some chance if it isnt he can donate his profits to the Iraqi childrens fund.

[SSbaby]

Nobody here is declaring the film to be completely unbiased. It's merely an interpretation of Moore's feeling's toward's Bush, the Republican party and his views on the war campaign. We all have views about the war, Moore is no different to anybody else.

Moore attempted to package his beliefs and emotions into one entertaining movie. It's up to you to believe what you will. The movie shouldn't alter your views about the war.

[TriShield]

Even if only 5% of that film has any credibility, we should all be concerned.

I think we should all be concerned that a film with less than 5% truth is being taken at face value by so many who never bother to look further into the story other than what they are told.

For those who believe the President is profiting off the war, consider Michael Moore stands to profit handsomely off the Iraq war with this film, and has declined to give what percentage of the money he makes with his distribution contract. At least the distributer has pledged all of their profits to charity. So much for Moore dedicating it to the soliders I guess.

I think we should all be concerned about the corruption of the UN oil for food program with Saddam's government (and why it isn't widely reported), with the shrouded ties France and Germany had with him as well as the intelligence gathering capabilities of the countries involved, and I think we all should have been very concerned when Saddam wasn't soundly ousted in 1998 when he threw out weapons inspectors.

We should all also remember practically every world leader and leader within the US thoroughly believed based on intelligence and Saddam's behavior that he did have weapons, and the desire to pursue the creation of such weapons even at the detriment of his own country and people. And that said leaders have spoken publicly about them and the threat they represented over the past ten years.

[XA coupe]

I think we should all be concerned that a film with less than 5% truth is being taken at face value by so many who never bother to look further into the story other than what they are told.

Bingo.
Trial by Media

[SSbaby]

I think we should all be concerned that the President of the USA is being taken at face value, after an unsuccessful war campaign.

[ecka]

I wonder why the American Govt. have never gone in to help the Kurds, Tibetans, Cambodians, Armenians... ohh that's right they don't have oil.

It's a good point, but it doesn't take too much pondering.

Saddam and his regime were responsible for more deaths each year in Iraq than the war and the aftermath. WMD's and sponsoring terrorists aside, you'd think that should've been more than enough reason to act. Yet the world and a great many of it's citizens are still demanding reasons and justifications?????

If this is the kind of warm and fuzzy reaction America (and it's allies including us) get for intervening and taking out such an obvious target, no bloody wonder there's reluctance to hit the less public obvious ones.

I think you know where I stand. :) JW and Howard could've told me they were going in to confirm a sighting of Santa Claus and I'd have given them my blessing. Anything to get rid of a maniac murdering bastard!

[Roddy]

I think we should all be concerned that a film with less than 5% truth is being taken at face value by so many who never bother to look further into the story other than what they are told.



True, though same could be said of the WMD "intelligence" which would be extremely lucky to be 5% accurate, yet was accepted unflinchingly as 100% truth.

It must be understood that, amongst the cheap shots, tricky editing and innuendo of Fahrenheit 911, there was quite a bit of very disturbing information which is straight out fact. One doen't have to be a genius to connect the dots, couple of clicks on the internet reveals a wealth of info (and I don't count sites such as "BushSucks.com either, just mainstream news media) and the picture ain't pretty any way you slice it.

Moore cheerleaders though would have you believe that this kind of behaviour is restricted to the conservative side of politics.....if only that were true. :lol:

[r8ls1]

If you think Bush went to war to catch Saddam because of WMD's, you must also beleive Santa leaves you a present under the tree every christmas.

Saddam's a thug, the Bush's are Conquerors.........

[JaminVYII]

not what i'd call a documentary, because they are, by definition, supposed to present even and unbiased views of a topic, which F9/11 certainly does not.

I studied doco's in Film Studies at school, and I discovered that a documentary always favours one side of the story, how much depends on what the film maker is trying to tell the viewer. Farenheit 9/11 is absolutely biased, and the aim of this documentary is to make sure George W. Bush IS NOT re-elected.

I found that in the film, we were shown what we needed to be shown. At the beginning of the film (after the opening credits) we are shown a blank screen, with only sound being played over it. Now even though we couldn't see what was going on, we ALL new exactly what we were hearing. We have seen that footage 1000 times over, and there is no need to see it again.

Later on we are shown things that we haven't seen before - the faces of people involved in the war. Dead children, burned bodies, bodies hung up, even a beheading (albeit from a distance).

This movie/documentary has certainly caused a stir, but we will find out if it has done what Michael Moore intended it to do later this year when Americans go to the polls.

[Red CV8 R]

My question is.....what did Howard stand to gain from joining Bush in Iraq? There has to be some kickback somewhere.

If you think any Australian Govt who does their job half properly would have said no to this then you are nuts, Australia has followed whatever the US has done for a long time and it wont change any time soon. As much as alot of people dont like it we have alot to loose by not having a strong relationship with the US.

I find it funny though that people get so upset about Australias very minimal addition to the Iraq war, I know guys who were/are chomping at the bit to get over there and reckon it is good training for our forces! All I know is how well Australia has done in this war and I am proud of the people who have given their all in Iraq.

Whether it was the right move or even a good move for the allies to invade Iraq though is a big question and I think it has cost the US and Britain dearly in both money and lives. I think it will continue this way for a long time to.

My biggest concern is how many of these terrorist groups operate in Australia and how little we can do about it.

[F6 Hoon]

I think the main purpose of the film is to show the main stream public the flip side of the war. What kind of government tries to ban reporting of dead service men being returned home in flag draped coffins? The Bush administration.

I read with humour the counter arguments to the film. People discredit the film, but we're to believe that Iraq has WMD. If you tell a lie often enough it still won't become the truth.

I don't think Moore had any idea how much money his film would generate.

I loved Britney's interview in the film!

[VXSSV8]

I haven't seen F/911 but have seen Bowling for Columbine which was a bit of an eye opener. It was all about trying to find out why the US has the highest rate of gun related deaths, obviously related to Columbine and other shootings. It really is quite shocking how bad things are over there, whilst the UK surprised me being so low. I assume F/911 is along similar lines, gunning for George WYA. I don't think anyone will ever know the truth but as with everything which has two sides to the story, it probably lies somewhere in the middle.

:)

[F6 Hoon]

My biggest concern is how many of these terrorist groups operate in Australia and how little we can do about it.

How many of the US terror alerts have eventuated into an actual terrorist alert? How many terrorist acts have occured in Australia lately?

It amazes me that the US Democrat's Convention finished on Friday, Kerry's opinion polls seems quite high, and now on Monday we hear a new terrorist threat alert is raised. Coincidence or what? :rolleyes:

Anyone remember the "Children Overboard" affair before our last Federal election? The things a government will do to stay in power are frightening.

[HOWQUICK]

read the book that the film is about but I haven't seen the film yet.

Interesting in the book where he plays God, nominates Oprah for President as well as endorsing Kerry..........

I brought it up with some American friends and the response I got from them was quite overwelming.........something about MM being a big fat liar.

The is a whole bunch on the net if you do a google on MM. Being from out of the country we might want to be pursuaded to think the MM is on the up and up but there is some real good stuff the other way. :)

Interesting how he goes on in the book about the fear that the US lives under and how this feeds a lot of the crime etc...would be interesting to get the figures of social economic depravity and drug use and lay them against each country v murder etc etc. :confused:

[Nawdy]

Three points I would like to make:

1. I wouldn't bother going to see the film in the first place. Why? Because Micheal Moore has his own political agenda to push, and making a movie such as this would be the perfect vehicle to get his message out to the masses. Therefore, his original claims that the movie is a documentary was actually a load of sh!t (he was lying...) and, like all good politicans, has conveniently changed his tune. And he stands to make a crap-load of $$$ out of it as well. Sorry, no credibility.

2. The war in Iraq - whatever the excuse for the war starting, one simple fact remains. Saddam Hussein, his sons and inner circle KILLED innocent people, MAIMED innocent people, and TORTURED innocent people for political gain/power, and because they could. They wiped out whole families, streets, suburbs and towns. Satan has been mentioned - well, this lot were bloody close to being Satan on Earth. Remember this little point before anything else about this war, and I for one am glad the "Coalition of the Willing" had the guts to put an end to this genocide. And don't forget, we have Aussies over there in harm's way - it's real, not just on your TV.

3. John Howard - yes, he is a politician but, I believe, he is an Australian first. He has made mistakes (this makes him human) but when it came to making the decision to go to war, he did the Aussie thing - support the underdog, and give everyone a fair go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Liberal supporter or Howard fan, but I am a proud Aussie and for Australia to be part of freeing the Iraqis is the right thing to do.

I'll climb down now -----> :soap:

[r8ls1]

Interesting in the book where he plays God, nominates Oprah for President as well as endorsing Kerry..........

I brought it up with some American friends and the response I got from them was quite overwelming.........something about MM being a big fat liar.


A lot of what he's telling the public about GB and his business dealings are known facts. :confused:

[HOWQUICK]

A lot of what he's telling the public about GB and his business dealings are known facts. :confused:

for sure. I aren't denying any of it and I don't have the time to run a full analysis on everything he says but one thing for sure....if you can reinforce a good story with some facts it definitely adds validity to the whole argument........

One thing that is very surprising or not depending on where you stand is how dogmatic Americans are towards their politics. George is your man and you die for him or you are some nancy, dress lifting, commy. FULL STOP! It is very polarised over there.

Truthfully they believe they are in WW3.........and as innocent Americans they are under attack regardless of their foreign policy. Try telling them that they are colonialist via free enterprise and see what you get....... ;)

Great country, great people. But wierd when you consider they spend billions around the world "looking" after other people but won't consider public health and social welfare for their own fellow Americans. :confused:

[spank]

Great country, great people. But wierd when you consider they spend billions around the world "looking" after other people but won't consider public health and social welfare for their own fellow Americans. :confused:[/QUOTE]

sounds like some other country i know of ..... um us
i agree that saddam and his sons had to go , they were animals to thier own people , but i dont like being lied to about WMD to protect americas oil interests and howard was far too eager to help his mate out and drag us into it he really is (imho) george w's lap dog . i firmly believe we are now a big target to the terrorists thanks to this war and i dont really want car bombs or worse going off in this country because of a gunho USA :soap:

[SS Enforcer]

There were 3 very disturbing things in this film for me.

1 Why were The Bin Laden family all rounded up and spirited out of the country when it was still under lockdown after 9/11.

2 The 2 recruiters for the marines scouring shopping malls looking for victims/new recruits amongst the countries unemployed to sign up for the military.
I bet they didn't have recruiters walking the streets of Beverly Hills, Newport Rhode Island or the Hamptons !

3 The very clever manipulation of the US public with regards to the reasons for going to war with Iraq. I have seen polls that state that over 50% of Americans believe that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, I even heard one of our Bali victims say that invading Iraq was right because we can't afford another Bali!!
FFS There isn't and never has been a connection with IRAQ regarding 9/11, Bali or any other Terroist act in the world excepting Israel " thats another matter".
So I ask WTF does the War On Terror have to do with IRAQ ? I think that the families of the 50k Iraqis and the 1k Americans killed so far would like to know.


Sure this film is very biased and probably sprinkled with some falsehoods but with all the right wing jingoism that comes out of the states it's presence is welcome.

[cutter bob]

i didn't like it .... it was interesting and eye opening but after 45 minutes of it he political agender started to shine through!!! there is an A and B to everything and we where only seeing A..... i'm not saying it was all lies and it was not wrong the way bush went about things but alot of what was in the movie was taking out of context and in doing this you can make anything sound and appear the way u want it to. to cut a long story short, u have to take this movie with a bucket of salt!!
nowhere near as good as for bowling for colimbine!!!!

[BRISVX]

It amazes me that the US Democrat's Convention finished on Friday, Kerry's opinion polls seems quite high, and now on Monday we hear a new terrorist threat alert is raised. Coincidence or what? :rolleyes:



So true. It is a common ploy by the ruling party to instill fear into the electorate just before an election, as history has shown that voters are less likely to change governments under such circumstances.

Did you see Four Corners show last night, on the US free trade agreement? It was quite disturbing the lengths the US is prepared to go to, in order to secure the deal so that we pay higher prices for prescription drugs. I was amazed at how naive the Australian officials were in thinking that it would all be fine and the US wouldn't do anything under-handed!.......all whilst the US lawyers were basically saying it would be a case of lambs to the slaughter. You really have to wonder what kick-backs Little Johnny gets from the US?.....he seems just like a little puppet on a string. I also don't understand why Labour is set to approve the FTA deal, given all the negative implications it will have for the country (as outlined last night). Doesn't look like we can trust any political party at the moment. Maybe we should start the LS1 Party?.....I think there only needs 500 registered members to get started.

[SSbaby]

Movies don't always convey factual information and we're all grown up to know that politicians don't normally speak the truth... The difference between MM's and GB's lies? MM's lies don't cost lives.

[flappist]

Michael Moore is a lying left wing nutter with a camera.

Adolf Hitler killed lots of Jews and political dissidents, annexed other countrys and then threatened more with perceived WMD.... we (the "free" world) wenbt in and got him.
Saddam Hussain killed lots of Kurds and political disidents and annexed other countries... what should we do?

Send in political teachers to help the people decide for themselves?
We tried that in 1916, Lenin was sent from his base in Switzerland back to mother Russia to help get rid of the Czars who were friendly with Germany.
That really worked well didn't it?

Maybe we should just ignore them like we did for Pol Pot or most of the African mass murderers? Genocide almost beyong comprehension.

If there was no media involved Iraq would have lasted 3 weeks.

If there was television in 1940, world war 2 would still be going on and we would all be speaking Japanese.

[Red CV8 R]

How many of the US terror alerts have eventuated into an actual terrorist alert? How many terrorist acts have occured in Australia lately?



Why would they want to bomb Australia when we hide them so effectively.

[SSbaby]

It's funny how some of you get personal and attack MM for basically creating a harmless movie. Get real people, one's a movie about a politician, while the other is about a politician who waged an unnecessary war.

The main reason why US targeted Iraq (we were led to believe) was for the reason they possessed WMD. Then the story changed to Saddam being a dictator, that Iraq should be liberated...

In the movie, MM is critical of why Bin Laden is still alive and plotting his next attack. Is it because, by keeping him alive, it's good justification for America's defense spending initiatives? Meanwhile, North Korea already has WMD but the US is in no hurry to defend the world of this threat. Don't blame MM for that!

[clixanup]

Maybe we should start the LS1 Party?.....I think there only needs 500 registered members to get started.

I'll be in that.

BRISVX for PM!!

P.S. Are you sure you need 500? One Nation didn't have that many did they??

[Beej]

Michael Moore is a lying left wing nutter with a camera.

As opposed to George Bush, Donald Rumsfield et al who are all right wing nut job proven liers with a farking huge army and "nuclur" weapons. Hmmm - I wonder who frightens me more......


Adolf Hitler killed lots of Jews and political dissidents, annexed other countrys and then threatened more with perceived WMD.... we (the "free" world) wenbt in and got him.

You always know a discussion has gone down hill when Hitler comes into it! :D. By the way - you know that Communist Russia/The Soviet Union also played a pretty big part in the defeat of Hitler and Nazi Germany right? So it wasn't just "the free world" - the left wing commies were in there too.

You see the difference between WWII and Iraq is that in WWII the threat was clear and undisputed - the very existance of the countries and societies involved was threatened, and there was no argument about the need for an alliance/coalition to defeat Nazi Germany and their allies (Japan etc). Contrast that to Iraq where most of the countries in the world including most of Europe (except for Britain and Spain) bitterly opposed the invasion.

Had Australia not supported America in the invasion what difference would it have made to us? Would our lives be any different now? The main difference is we would probably feel safer and less of a terrorist target!


Saddam Hussain killed lots of Kurds and political disidents and annexed other countries... what should we do?

Well considering he committed the Kurdish atrocity back in the 80's when America and "the free west" were actively supporting his regime in it's war against Iran, and did nothing about it at the time, I think that is a moot point really......

As for annexing other countries - he tried to do that twice - once it was Iran and the "free west" supported him, the second time it was Kuwait, and we went in and kicked him out. So that was pretty well dealt with I think.

Political dissidents being killed and tortured? Well it is a horrible thing yes - but justification for unilateral military invasion by vastly superior powers? If that is enough justification then we + USA should be invading half the world about now - Burma, North Korea, half of the African states, Israel, half of South America, etc etc.

The world is a more complex place than Bush/Rumsfield etc try to lead us to believe - I think that is part of the point of Moores fillum.



Send in political teachers to help the people decide for themselves?
We tried that in 1916, Lenin was sent from his base in Switzerland back to mother Russia to help get rid of the Czars who were friendly with Germany.
That really worked well didn't it?

Well it did actually - as pointed out above the commies helped us defeat Hitler and Nazi Germany - but I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here anyway.


Maybe we should just ignore them like we did for Pol Pot or most of the African mass murderers? Genocide almost beyong comprehension.

Well we ignore most of the despotic dictators and mass murdering regimes in the world, and the US and Britain have actively supported quite a few - including good ol Saddam for a while! Think Pinochet for one of the worse examples. So what was so special about Saddam all of a sudden? You see you have swallowed the con job that Bush/Howard etc have put out there - hook line and sinker. But it doesn't stand up to scrutiny and is not consistent. Hell they weren't even consistent themselves! - We did it for "WMDs" they said - but now they didn't find any? Suddenly we did it because Saddam is a bad guy - but at the time before the invasion they said that the "bad guy" argument by itself was not justification enough!


If there was no media involved Iraq would have lasted 3 weeks.

Yea right - like how Afghanistan has just settled down and become all happy and rosy, and Bin Laden has handed himself in etc while the media hasn't been bothering to pay any attention over there?

I have actually seen MMs film - I don't know if everyone here has or not - I found that it mis-represented or perhaps exagerrated a view things, so you take it with a grain of salt - but at the end of the day it points out a few things - the links of the Bush family to Arab oil money, the suffering of the Iraqi people at OUR hands (we are rarely shown this on mainstream media), it exposes the whole series of outright lies behind the Iraq war, illustrates it as a massive waste of resources that has made us no safer from terrorism - in fact it has probably made things worse, but most importantly, it showed what an incompetent dumb-ass idiot George Bush is!! After you see this film you won't believe or trust a single word the guy says ever again. Of course I never did in the first place!! :D

Thanks for reading my rant if you got this far!

Beej

[Roddy]

I have actually seen MMs film - I don't know if everyone here has or not - I found that it mis-represented or perhaps exagerrated a view things, so you take it with a grain of salt - but at the end of the day it points out a few things - the links of the Bush family to Arab oil money, the suffering of the Iraqi people at OUR hands (we are rarely shown this on mainstream media), it exposes the whole series of outright lies behind the Iraq war, illustrates it as a massive waste of resources that has made us no safer from terrorism - in fact it has probably made things worse, but most importantly, it showed what an incompetent dumb-ass idiot George Bush is!!

A good summation of the film. Partisan, sneaky, flawed, but many of the facts are undeniable. Filter out the blatant Moore bias, and it's still scary.

I read a nice little column by Michael Duffy the other day, ranting about how F911 was full of lies etc. But what interested me was that Duffy admitted that he had not seen the film, but was relying on opinions of others whom he "trusted". :)

If one is to critique a film, it helps actually having seen it. :D

[ecka]

You see the difference between WWII and Iraq is that in WWII the threat was clear and undisputed - the very existance of the countries and societies involved was threatened, and there was no argument about the need for an alliance/coalition to defeat Nazi Germany and their allies (Japan etc). Contrast that to Iraq where most of the countries in the world including most of Europe (except for Britain and Spain) bitterly opposed the invasion.


Actually, this is a point worth reflecting on.

Most world wide US bashing, "anti americanism", or whatever other term you want to use is because the US get's actively involved in international affairs - too involved for many.

In WW2 the threat was clear and undisputed, but for more than two years Great Britain, France and the Commonwealth did all the farken fighting. The Russians annexed the Baltic states and half of Poland and signed non - aggression with Hitler. The US remained "isolationist" until they got attacked.

So the analogy of a few countries going into Iraq while the rest looked on is no different to WWII. The rest looked on then as well, UNTILL they got bitten.

The US has refused to adopt that policy ever since.

[flappist]

There is always another left winger to support the propaganda regardless of anything eh beej.

MM has been proven ony many occasions to misquote, misrepresent and even fabricate totally his "facts".

You do a bit of travelling do you. If you do you will know that what get reported outside a country tends to be a bit inaccurate. Some of the stuff I have read in HongKong and Singapore and even New Zealand about what is happening in Australia is spectacular.

I tend to get to the USA a bit, I was there when Bush was elected (actually in southern Florida where the "chad" event took place) and also there as recently as May this year.

The average yank actually supports Bush and the current policies. They are also very supportive of Australia. It is a popular view that yanks are dumb brainwashed rednecks with lots of guns.

Well I am writing this on a computer designed by yanks and sending it over the internet designed by yanks to a forum that has, as its main subject, an engine designed and built by ...... you get the picture.

We get the media view mostly from the Peoples Democratic Republic of Kalifornia.

You seem to think that manipulating the politics of Russia to allow the formation of a 70 year dictatorship that bankrupted an entire continent, murdered millions and held the world in fear of nuclear war for almost 30 years was not a bad thing. Sorry I disagree. But then, here in the free world disagreement is allowed, in Iraq, disagreement with Saddam was fatal.

You have attacked some of my other points but I will leave these alone and let the readers make up their own minds.

[exwrx]

[QUOTE=flappist]There is always another left winger to support the propaganda regardless of anything eh beej.

MM has been proven ony many occasions to misquote, misrepresent and even fabricate totally his "facts".

Easy to label people. I think beej responded to your original claims in a rational manner. Your response is to play the man and ignore the facts. A familiar tactic, but transparent nevertheless.

Lying is not confined to any particular political party. They all do it, and it is the job of our opposition and media to expose lies. As adults, we then make our own decisions about where the truth rests, including weighing any bias.

The fact remains that we were lied to by our government when justifying the decision to go to war, and no amount of spin can overcome that fact. I for one am not happy about that.

If Mike Moore's film provokes some debate, then that has to be a good thing.

[SS Enforcer]

There is always another left winger to support the propaganda regardless of anything eh beej.

The Rabid Right never accepts another point of view, criticism seems to draw out the worst in them.

We have had 2 years of right wing propaganda thrust on us by the ruling elite as soon as someone has a bit of a go from the other side and gets an alternative message out the Right starts howling.

I know exactly what Flappist means regarding the 3 weeks bit. We are not that evil .... are we ?

I am currently arguing with a very good friend of mine who happens to be a very respected Barristor. We had a falling out and arn't talking due to this film. He refuses to see it, MM is a " Journalistic Prostitute" or words similar according to friend, his explaination of the missing WMD is that Sadam had it moved just before the invasion and the invasion is justified. I guess the ramifications for admitting we as a country got it wrong is totally unpalatable especially with an election looming.

And to top it off Latham the :booty: does a flip and will back the FTA I guess he is hoping that the US administration will forgive him for his cracks about old Dubya even if they were on the mark. This will be the 3rd election in a row the labour party hands over to the Libs.

Oops sorry about my OT rant.

F9/11 certainly polarises people if nothing else we probably all needed a big kick in the ass anyway. If all MM's doco achieve is to get a few more people asking some hard questions it will be worth it.

cheers

damm exwrx beat me to it

[SSbaby]

It's easy for you, flappist, to write negative stereotypes about MM...misquote, misrepresent and even fabricate totally his "facts" yet I can't believe how you can be so ignorant of Bush's lies and cover-ups in the same sentence. The man who talks peace but really means war, I guess your comments are no different here.

You don't have to do much travelling to know Bush is a total f__whit but while you're OS, why not visit Europe and get a concensus of their thoughts on Bush? Making blanket statements like America supports Bush is really an insult to the intelligence of most Americans. Most of the views expressed here are not anti-American, in fact, if you look outside of those redneck borders you seem to hide behind, you'd know that it is innocent Americans who also suffer during times of war.

The movie certainly opened up my eyes to multitude of reasons behind the push for war. Invariably the reasons are solely about $$$ but you would never admit to that as you are more concerned about the loss of innocent lives, not cheap fuel. :rolleyes:

PS: I am definitely no lefty, just able to cut through all the BS.

[Beej]

Actually, this is a point worth reflecting on.

Most world wide US bashing, "anti americanism", or whatever other term you want to use is because the US get's actively involved in international affairs - too involved for many.

In WW2 the threat was clear and undisputed, but for more than two years Great Britain, France and the Commonwealth did all the farken fighting. The Russians annexed the Baltic states and half of Poland and signed non - aggression with Hitler. The US remained "isolationist" until they got attacked.

So the analogy of a few countries going into Iraq while the rest looked on is no different to WWII. The rest looked on then as well, UNTILL they got bitten.

The US has refused to adopt that policy ever since.


Ah yes an interesting observation Ecka! Although what you say is true, I would remind our readers that even while not actively involved in military action during the early years of WWII, the USA was still an outright supporter of Britain and France and provided huge amounts of economic and financial aid. Ie, they didn't have the troops on the ground or the planes in the air, but their money and support was well and truly on only one side from the beginning.

Cheers,

Beej

[flappist]

Yes I agree, all the bastards seem to be a bit creative with the truth.
Bush may be a nutter but he is an elected nutter in a place that allows free speech.

The problem is that we, the great unwashed, get lied to about almost everything.

I burr up when I see either side, left or right, and in particular the media outright lying to put across an agenda. I have on several occasions been present at an event that was portrayed and manipulated absolutely wrongly.

e.g.
The bathurst easter bike race riots on the mid 80s
The gun debate marches of the mid 90s (surprise surprise)
Timber cutting & sand mining on Fraser Island in the 80s & 90s
QLD power strikes.
to mention a few.

The social engineering that has gone on in the last 50 years is nothing short of disgusting.

Farenheit 911 is only slightly closer to being a true unbiased documentary than Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Probably a bit more truthful than 60 minutes though.

If you are actually interested in a counter to Moore, just put "Michael Moore is a big fat liar" into google and see what you get.

[Beej]

Hey flappist - I'm not going to get drawn into a personal a mud flinging exercise with you - nice try though! I actually enjoy discussions where my views are challenged and don't find a discussion such as this threatening at all.

Anyway to answer a couple of questions you posed - I actually do travel quite a lot and regularly, to the US and Europe mainly. I too was in the US during the election that fraudulently "elected" George W - I was in California though, and I can tell you that the people I worked with over there were horrified by what went on (as was I!). As for what get's reported about Australia - at least in the US and Europe I find that very little get's reported about Australia at all! - we are unfortunately not that prominent on the world political stage :(

For some reason you seem to have interpreted my point of view as somehow anti-american. I am not anti-american, and as you correctly point out I enjoy many things that come from that "great land" - the internet, LS1s, computers, etc etc. I travel there often and have lived and worked over there. I have many friends who are American's, and I in fact earn my living working for an American company.

What I am is anti-the-Iraq-war, anti-being-lied-to-by-government, anti-being-told-what-to-do-by-a-moron-like-george-w-bush! I know for a fact that many Americans feel exactly the same way - as well as a great many Australians!

Cheers,

Beej

[flappist]

What I am is anti-being-lied-to-by-government, anti-being-told-what-to-do-by-a-moron-like-george-w-bush!


N.B. above is edited.

Well at least we agree on some things

[ecka]

Ah yes an interesting observation Ecka! Although what you say is true, I would remind our readers that even while not actively involved in military action during the early years of WWII, the USA was still an outright supporter of Britain and France and provided huge amounts of economic and financial aid. Ie, they didn't have the troops on the ground or the planes in the air, but their money and support was well and truly on only one side from the beginning.

Cheers,

Beej

Very true. But surely you see the depth of this analogy? The money and support kept the fight going - and nearly bankrupted Britain - but it took DIRECT involvement of the onlookers to finish the fight. Applied to Iraq, there was untold nations and peoples that supported the Iraqi people. But throwing money at it doesn't cut it. Just like WWII, it takes risks and lives as well as money. Plenty of nations and people about prepared to throw a few dollars, but most faded to onlookers when there was risk involved. Thankfully, not all. Been exactly the same since.

[F6 Hoon]

Wow, good reading. I'd have to say I agree with what you've said Beej. It sums up my thoughts on the war and G W Bush.

[cutter bob]

Michael Moore is a lying left wing nutter with a camera.





:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Emre]

Right on start of the war, there was thread about it (the war) and the big majority of the forum was in support of it; or should i say, the big majority of the users that voiced their opinion in that thread.

A couple of years down the track, we have this thread and the majority of the people participated so far, are opposed to the same war.

If Michael Moore is responsible for any portion of this discrepancy, i'd say he has achieved what he was trying to. Regardless of how he portrays his views and gets his message across, his punchline is hard to argue with. He also seems to be the only one persistent enough to produce such films and for this, he is gaining popularity quite fast.


On a similar note, there was a two part documentry last week, pretty much sharing the same views as MM's film. This was aired by SBS, our government owned TV station.

The day or two later, Andrew Bolt wrote his piece regarding this documentry, calling it the biggest pack of lies and trying to discredit every part of it. Andrew Bolt is a regular columnist in Vic. Herald-Sun, one of the biggest circulating newspapers in the country.

Now, it is clearly obvious, one of these parties is in the wrong and we are witnessing an irritable side-effect of our freedom of speech. Every Tom, Dick and Harry can get up and voice his/her opinion to the masses, regardless of the fact that they maybe based on fiction.

However, the questions are quite simple : Would you want George Bush as your president...? Do you think he could write a single paragraph out of his thousand speeches, on his own...? How much faith can you have, in decision making ability of this man and his entourage...?

[Brendan]

Well I went to see the film this afternoon.

No surprises really, after seeing Bowling for Columbine I knew what sort of slant Michael Moore puts on his films.

He starts off at the beginning, the "stolen' presidency. Now I've read "Stupid White Men" and already knew his view on that (Gore the "President in Exile"). But whichever way you look at it, there was something rotten in the state of Florida. It may not be to the extent that Moore reports, but you have to question it.

As far as the Bush family's business dealings, well, nothing new there. There is only one way to become President, and that is cash, bucket loads of it. And there are 2 types of money, old money which was the Kennedys and the like and the new money, like Bush, even the current Democrat candidate Kerry. (although Kerry's money comes from ketchup, not oil, his wife is part of the Heinz family)

Bush's new money is oil and you really can't be involved in oil without involving the Middle East somehow. My major concern is Cheney and Halliburton, as the 2 old ducks said, why do they seem to get all the contracts, no-one knows about them.

Best joke in the film, playing the theme from "Greatest American Hero" when Bush was flying to the carrier for his major conflict is over speech.

The war footage was disturbing, but war footage is always disturbing.

[HOWQUICK]

this is the sort of stuff our cousins send to each other..........you see no reference to their foreign policy that cause these attacks..... :confused:


Not very long, and very informative. You have to read the catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask yourself how anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring our troops home from Iraq, sit back, reset the snooze alarm, go back to sleep, and no one will ever bother us again. In case you missed it, World War III began in November 1979... that alarm has been ringing for years.

US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month. He offers a detailed historic account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary.

”AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!

That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (when more than 3,000 Americans were killed) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.

It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world’s most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 23 years.

America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.

America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.

Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.

On April lst. of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63 people.

The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.

Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.

Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.

The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.

Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.

Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.

Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.

The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing
259.

Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.

The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

[HOWQUICK]

The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war?

The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over
500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision.

They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.


The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.

The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think we have been in a war for the past 23 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough.

America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said ".. it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage, politically or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.

Please forward this to as many people as you can especially to the young people and all those who dozed off in history class and who seem so quick to protest such a necessary military action.”

Balanced isn't it? :eek:

[V-Car]

this is the sort of stuff our cousins send to each other..........you see no reference to their foreign policy that cause these attacks..... :confused:

Hit the nail on the head John.
While Israel continues to have the massive influence it does in US politics and foreign policy, im afraid nothing will change. :(

[SSbaby]

Balanced isn't it? :eek:

Not really. I don't think any those factors influenced Bush's decision to strike Iraq.

[ROGUE]

after reading the posts on this thread, it's obvious who the left and right wing voters are...

don't forget... it's ONLY A MOVIE.....

if you really want to do something about it, join the forces... :lol:

[HOWQUICK]

Not really. I don't think any those factors influenced Bush's decision to strike Iraq.

tongue in cheek comment...so you think it is balanced?

you have to understand that none of those factors, in your opinion, influenced Bush's decision but they are used by the US to justify their stance.

they really do think that they are under attack for no reason. :(



after reading the posts on this thread, it's obvious who the left and right wing voters are...

don't forget... it's ONLY A MOVIE.....

if you really want to do something about it, join the forces... :lol:

it is more than a movie......it is a look into the phyche of a Super Power.

left or right? Now that would just be over simplifying the whole deal the way the US do....it is more about being able to look at the whole situation and make a call regardless of what the "sprukers" are telling you.

why join the military? Those fellas being blown up by car bombs are really making a difference!

[SSbaby]

You'd be wrong in your assumption rogue...just because you usually vote right does not also mean you are automatically in favour of the war.

[ROGUE]

if you read my post again, you'll see i didn't make any assumptions...

[SSbaby]

tongue in cheek comment...so you think it is balanced?

you have to understand that none of those factors, in your opinion, influenced Bush's decision but they are used by the US to justify their stance.

they really do think that they are under attack for no reason. :(



Hi HOWQUICK,

Yeah, I know it was tongue in cheek. I'm agreeing with you. :)

[SSbaby]

if you read my post again, you'll see i didn't make any assumptions...

I did .....


it's obvious who the left and right wing voters are

[ROGUE]

*sigh...* :rolleyes:

[Malcolmsp]

Slightly left of topic:

Historically the US have dealt with enemies with a face and a land very effectively, probably brutally.

Fireboming Japan (http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/firebombing/firebombing_intro.html)

Check the above link on the firebombing campaign on Japan at the end of WW2. A long but interesting read.

Why were Hiroshima and Nagasaki chosen? Nearly every other city in Japan had already been flattened. Payback for Pearl Harbour would be my guess.

cheers
Mal

[ROGUE]

hiroshima and nagasaki were major industrial city's.

i've been to the peace park at hiroshima, and walked the streets of the city... very, VERY surreal.... :eek:

[Malcolmsp]

They were industrial cities that had been set aside specifically for atomic testing. There were four major cities remaining in Japan that had not been extensively firebombed. Each fire bombing flattened four square miles. Overlay that over the cbd or heavy industry in you city!

cya
Mal

[rodp]

I've seen the flick and I can't understand how you can critisise a movie without even seeing it.

Sure, MM is painting a pretty biased and grim picture but there were a number of things that were irrefutable that were major causes of concern for me.

- The flying out of the Saudi's while all other aircraft were grounded.
- The ties the Bush's have to Saudi oil.
- Dubya's inability to run a company, let alone a country.
- His action (or lack thereof) while told of the news of 2 planes hitting the TT's during a kindy class.
- His (blank, emotionless) expression prior to addressing the country about going to war.
- His 'dedication' to his work prior to 9/11.

His recent foot in mouth;

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we,"

Sounds pretty spot on.

Shortly after 9/11, I had a great respect for him the way he came out and united the country and actually appeared to be a leader but it's patently clear now he was nothing but a puppet.

The whole Iraq war, I still think it was beneficial in overthrowing Saddam, for me that was more important than finding any WMD's anyway.

[Roddy]

Sure, MM is painting a pretty biased and grim picture but there were a number of things that were irrefutable that were major causes of concern for me.

- The flying out of the Saudi's while all other aircraft were grounded.


Just to clarify, although the film implied that this was the case, it wasn't. They flew out after airspace reopened. Moore was called on this and he said that the film never directly said this (true), though the implication was certainly there. An example of Moore's sneakiness, though your other points are bang on and are indeed disturbing.

[HOWQUICK]

I've seen the flick and I can't understand how you can critisise a movie without even seeing it.

Sure, MM is painting a pretty biased and grim picture but there were a number of things that were irrefutable that were major causes of concern for me.

- The flying out of the Saudi's while all other aircraft were grounded.
- The ties the Bush's have to Saudi oil.
- Dubya's inability to run a company, let alone a country.
- His action (or lack thereof) while told of the news of 2 planes hitting the TT's during a kindy class.
- His (blank, emotionless) expression prior to addressing the country about going to war.
- His 'dedication' to his work prior to 9/11.

His recent foot in mouth;

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we,"

Sounds pretty spot on.

Shortly after 9/11, I had a great respect for him the way he came out and united the country and actually appeared to be a leader but it's patently clear now he was nothing but a puppet.

The whole Iraq war, I still think it was beneficial in overthrowing Saddam, for me that was more important than finding any WMD's anyway.

never assume anything is fact on anecdotal evidence from dubiuos sources....


http://www.mooreexposed.com/

http://www.mooreexposed.com/dwmc.html


there is heaps of this stuff if you want to check out his sources.

Who is right and who is wrong? Who is telling the truth? Who knows.......but let's not get over zealous about side picking. :eek: Sure fence sitters get splinters...but others get
bombs. ;)


Just to clarify, although the film implied that this was the case, it wasn't. They flew out after airspace reopened. Moore was called on this and he said that the film never directly said this (true), though the implication was certainly there. An example of Moore's sneakiness, though your other points are bang on and are indeed disturbing.

the book actually states this as FACT! :confused: :eek:

[rodp]

Just to clarify, although the film implied that this was the case, it wasn't. They flew out after airspace reopened. Moore was called on this and he said that the film never directly said this (true), though the implication was certainly there. An example of Moore's sneakiness, though your other points are bang on and are indeed disturbing.

Ok, all but 1 were irrefutable. :lol:

One thing I would like to have clarified absolutely would be the footage of him reading a nursery book after apparently being told that 2 planes have hit the towers. That was the vision of a man in well over his head.

So they were flown out at the first opportunity in open airspace, but why were they given the VIP treatment? Family members of the mastermind of a terrorist attack on the US probably would have been better use in the US than being shipped off on the first plane outta there?

[Drizt]

maybe a stupid question but why did MM not mention australias involvment at all ???

he didnt list australia or england as being apart of the "union of the willing" or what ever tripe he made up....

[SSbaby]

maybe a stupid question but why did MM not mention australias involvment at all ???

he didnt list australia or england as being apart of the "union of the willing" or what ever tripe he made up....


Australia isn't the significant player the media would have you to believe... there were 800 odd Australian troops assisting the Americans on the 'war against terror'...have a guess how many Spanish troops were involved post war... 1200. You kind of get an idea that Australia is an insignificant player when certain 'facts' are brought before your eyes.

Ever wondered why the American presidents look down at their prompt sheets whenever they mention the Australian Prime Minister's name? It's because they can't remember the name, John Howard! Australia is considered the arse end of the world by some nations but the media tends to give a different perspective - one of the alliance, 3 nations that committed troops to the war effort - USA, UK and AUS.

I've been to the US on several occasions and love the country and it's people. BUT It pisses me off big time whenever we get caught up in America's international conflicts and then suck up to American politicians in the hope they might grant some concessions to Australian exports...

[HOWQUICK]

maybe a stupid question but why did MM not mention australias involvment at all ???

he didnt list australia or england as being apart of the "union of the willing" or what ever tripe he made up....

you should read the book......he does in that.

[ROGUE]

I think we can all agree that Bush lacks the skills to properly run a major country...

Maybe he'd make it as the NZ prime minister, or maybe he can start off with PNG for beginners... :lol:

[PaulST]

If any of you watched Moore’s old show, the Awful Truth, you’d know what he stands for. Anti-authoritarianism and anti-establishment behavior similar to many anarchist groups that get around.
I think the fact that Marilyn Manson did the music for Bowling for Columbine (and the latest movie I believe) also says something about Moore’s taste.


I’d source where I read this if I could remember where I read it, but I can’t :p
Some ask where the WMD actually were, well it was interesting that the Israeli intelligent agencies years ago warned that Iraq was smuggling weapons into Syria but they weren’t the only ones. I believe American spy satellites had also captured increased traffic on the main high-way connecting the two. Then just recently, Syrian agents captured 17.5 tonnes of explosives and gasses and it was believed they were going to be detonated near the Syrian Intelligent building and American embassy. I’m not sure what people expect “mass” to be, but 17.5 tonnes is a lot.
There are also many other examples where UN Inspectors have been forced to wait out the front of a building while trucks drove out the back and documents were burnt in clear view. I did a speech on this not long ago so I’ve researched the whole area quite a bit, unfortunately all my information isn’t with me so that’ll have to wait till Monday. There are also other examples of missiles and gas that have “gone missing”, for example Saddam told the UN he had 700 tonnes of nerve agent but he later down-graded that to 600 tonnes. Those two figures were from what I can remember, I’ll get the exact figures next week.
It’s just our society where no-one wants to fight. I agree that war is a terrible thing, but sometimes is it needed. I suppose the Left-wing protesters didn’t support the D-day invasion either… Have a look at Sudan now, hundreds of thousands of people are being killed by Islamic militia from the north and nothing is being done about it. IMO, Australia should lead a peace-keeping force into the area, maybe France, Germany and Russia could get back some respectability and help too??

Back on the movie though
Here are a few quotes from Andrew Bolt’s article on the movie. The whole article can be found at: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10195654%255E25717,00.html
“THIS is Moore's Big Lie, and few of his fans mind that it's as incoherent as it is mad. For a start, the Saudis bitterly opposed the war on Iraq, not least because they didn't want Iraq's oil to flow again.
So if Bush has been bought off by the Saudis, he's chosen a crazy way to please them. In fact, he undermined the Saudi regime by bringing freedom to Iraq and Afghanistan, and inspiring Saudis to ask why they can't have some, too. “
RE: Moore’s claims that Bush stole the election.

“And a six-month study of the Florida votes by mainly Left-wing media organisations, including the New York Times and Washington Post, found Gore would still have lost even if disputed votes had been counted just the way he wanted.”
“
First, the "White House" is accused of letting 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the huge bin Laden family, fly out of the US just after September 11 without even being grilled.
What Moore doesn't say is that these Saudis were allowed to leave by the Bill Clinton-appointed counter-terrorism boss at the time, Richard Clarke, who Moore uses elsewhere in the film to dish dirt on Bush. Also not mentioned is that 30 of the Saudis were closely interviewed by the FBI before being allowed to leave. But why spoil the Big Lie? “

“We're shown, for instance, a US National Guardsman, Peter Damon, who's had his hands blown off, but we're not told he's furious to find he appears in this foul film.
Likewise, Moore shows us the burial of US Air Force Major Gregory Stone, without adding that Stone's grieving relatives say he remained a "totally conservative Republican", and by exploiting his death Moore is a "maggot that eats off the dead". “

Here are 53 pages (font size 12) of information with regards to the movie, “Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11”
http://davekopel.com./Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Moore’s done well, not only has he got web-site dedicated to finding holes in his films, but also a book called “Michael Moore: Big Fat Lier”

[PaulST]

- The flying out of the Saudi's while all other aircraft were grounded.
- The ties the Bush's have to Saudi oil.
- Dubya's inability to run a company, let alone a country.
- His action (or lack thereof) while told of the news of 2 planes hitting the TT's during a kindy class.
- His (blank, emotionless) expression prior to addressing the country about going to war.
- His 'dedication' to his work prior to 9/11.
Read my above thread with regards to flying the Saudi's out, it had nothing to do with George Bush Jnr.
If you were president, what you would have done if you were told about the attacks during a kinder class?
I ask again, what would you have had on your face if you were about to say you were going to war? A smile? It would be the front page of every Arab newspaper in the world, US President laughs as civilians die.
And I’m assuming you "dedication to his work" is in regards to shot of him having a hit of golf? So he shouldn't enjoy life then?

[sleek346]

I saw moores movie first day it came out, I'm a supporter of MMs work. Theirs a movie you all should get ahold of ROGER AND ME. It was MMs first movie, he did what fairenhiet 911 did to george W he did to GM chairman Roger Smith who was laying off americans in serach of cheap manufacturing in mexico.

Since day one of entering Iraq I realized this war is going to last for years, my american counterparts didnt' belive me it was the high spirit at the time that blinded them of what is to unfold in the ensuing years. Though Iraq may have been run by Hussain he kept people in line Kurds go here Sunni muslims go here etc Now america whats to liberate people that hate each other for 100s of years?

If Husains sons were so evil why didn't we kill them back in the 80s? why is it we waited till 2003? Convienintly after 9/11?

America suprisingly has alot of republican right wing nut jobs that like to see us beat up on countrys. I'm a liberal democrat and a union man :) And like the democrats I have flip flops on the war, I see now that occuping Iraq has surfaced Terrorist that the FBI is looking for. We see them on tapes cutting peoples heads off but we see who the real enemy is. You can't have a war on terrorism, terrorism is an event that happens.

PS Watch Moores movie Roger and Me!

[sleek346]

Lets not forget W best comment.

While speaking to wealthy american business owners at a ball at the waldorff historia in NY Bush started his speach with.

"People call you the haves and have mores, I call you my base"

Everyone went quite and tried to think, WTF was he was on about?

[rodp]

If you were president, what you would have done if you were told about the attacks during a kinder class?
I would have excused myself right away and gone 'to work'. I wouldn't have sat there like I had just been told that old yella had been put down and fumbled with a book for 15 minutes.


I ask again, what would you have had on your face if you were about to say you were going to war? A smile? It would be the front page of every Arab newspaper in the world, US President laughs as civilians die.
Read what I wrote. Have you seen the footage? I don't expect a smile. I expect to be filled with confidence by the demeanor of the 'leader of the free world'. Not an expression of a deer caught in a pair of headlights look.


And I’m assuming you "dedication to his work" is in regards to shot of him having a hit of golf? So he shouldn't enjoy life then?
Having a hit is one thing, spending more time on the golf course than tending to the people he took an oath to serve is another.

[HOWQUICK]

I think we can all agree that Bush lacks the skills to properly run a major country...

Maybe he'd make it as the NZ prime minister, or maybe he can start off with PNG for beginners... :lol:


yep you are dead right but he is only a face and name for the people behind him.....just like the show "Yes Minister" it is the public servants that run the ideas and impliment the plans of the administration......these people are there regardless of who is the PM/Pres and have there own way of putting slants on what the Govt want and need.....we have seen plenty of evidence of this in recent times here haven't we?

So when does "Strong Leadership" become Dictatorship?

[F6 Hoon]

Lets not forget W best comment.

While speaking to wealthy american business owners at a ball at the waldorff historia in NY Bush started his speach with.

"People call you the haves and have mores, I call you my base"

Everyone went quite and tried to think, WTF was he was on about?

Does Al Quida mean the base?

G W Bush made a real **** of himself while making a speech yesteday. The guy's a clown :lol:

[F6 Hoon]

yep you are dead right but he is only a face and name for the people behind him.....just like the show "Yes Minister" it is the public servants that run the ideas and impliment the plans of the administration......these people are there regardless of who is the PM/Pres and have there own way of putting slants on what the Govt want and need.....we have seen plenty of evidence of this in recent times here haven't we?

The "Tampa" and "Children Overboard" are just two examples that come to mind.

[V-Car]

I think we can all agree that Bush lacks the skills to properly run a major country...

Maybe he'd make it as the NZ prime minister, or maybe he can start off with PNG for beginners... :lol:

Comparing Dubbya to Helen Clark is an insult to the Prime Minister of NZ.
IMO, she is far more qualified and 'educated' to run a country than he will ever be.

[V-Car]

yep you are dead right but he is only a face and name for the people behind him...

Dick Cheney? Donald Rumsfeld? Paul Wolfowitz? Condoleezza Rice? Etc?

Be afraid, be very afraid! :(

[Beej]

The "Tampa" and "Children Overboard" are just two examples that come to mind.

The disgraceful treatment of Federal Police Commissioner Mick Kelty for stating the bleeding obvious is another more recent example!! They are so lucky he didn't resign in disgust - it was reported he was very very close to quitting.....

Beej

[F6 Hoon]

The disgraceful treatment of Federal Police Commissioner Mick Kelty for stating the bleeding obvious is another more recent example!! They are so lucky he didn't resign in disgust - it was reported he was very very close to quitting.....

Beej

Spot on! I missed that one.

[mosanator]

I would encourage EVERY person who contributed to this thread to read a book by Noam Chomsky called " Hegemony Or Survival " , it will contribute a great deal to your thoughts on this subject. It will also answer some of the questions posed in here about why the US does the things it does whilst turning a blind eye to other counties and their Governments.

I was all for the War in Iraq to start with, it is now however starting to look more and more like an occupation than a liberation. Yes Saddam had to go, but i find it strange that the US always seems to have a problem disengaging from these conflicts, or is that just what their politicians want the world to think? I don't know.

I also believe that the US armed forces are so dependant on technology and systems, (Anyone who has ever been on exercise with US forces will know what i mean) that when it comes down to the type of conflict that is occuring in Iraq now, their conventional forces are unable to operate without sustaining casualties. Thankfully our guys over there are better trained, rather than better equiped.

Again i would encourage you to read the book, i mentioned at the beginning of my rant. :)

[Kirium]

Bear in mind we've only got about 800 personnel at the most serving over there...

The U.S has commited over 135,000 troops to iraq alone and another 50,000-odd in Afghanistan...

On another note, There's another book out by an anonymous senior U.S intelligence official called "Imperial Hubris" not sure if it's available here, but it's more of an insiders view on why radical islamism is waging war on the west, why the bush administration is unable to put up a realistic fight and what needs to be done to combat it...

I've just ordered it from amazon.com...

[sleek346]

have a look at www.jibjab.com and watch the movie, its hilarious

this puts it all into perspective

[VXSSV8]

have a look at www.jibjab.com and watch the movie, its hilarious

this puts it all into perspective

:lol: Now thats funny, good laugh! :D

[rodp]

have a look at www.jibjab.com and watch the movie, its hilarious

this puts it all into perspective

That was BRILLIANT! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mav]

Keep in mind John Kerry, the supposed angel from above was not opposed to the war.

As far as I am concerned, Saddam had to be kicked out. Now how do you propose they do that....ask to have a cuppa and chat it over?

No, the only way it was EVER going to happen was to kick his ass so hard he would never come back. (enter Bush Snr. who had no idea. If only they listened to then Gen. Powell)

Bush may be a little slow, stupid if you will (although that is a little harsh), but he had the guts to stand up to a ruthless dictator who had murdered millions over his 30 odd years.

[Emre]

Posted by rodp
The whole Iraq war, I still think it was beneficial in overthrowing Saddam, for me that was more important than finding any WMD's anyway.

Posted by Mav
As far as I am concerned, Saddam had to be kicked out. Now how do you propose they do that....ask to have a cuppa and chat it over?

No, the only way it was EVER going to happen was to kick his ass so hard he would never come back.
You guys are falling into the same trap as many did before the war had begun. Any spin doctor can sugar coat his reasons for the invasion (or is it libaration ? :rolleyes: ) of Iraq, but the reality is that, you can not go and invade a country because you disapprove the way it's run. Over a handful other countries need invading if we make that the first rule.

A lot of lives have been lost during this war, over 700 from US and hundreds more civilian lives from Iraq. Unfortunately, those are just numbers to a lot of people, unless they are directly effected by it. To top it all off, the general consensus in Irag is anti-US and they don't even see any good intentions (if there are any) behind this invasion. The opposing camps (Sunnis and Shias) that were in a war against each other for 10 years in the 80s are joining forces against the US, those are the Shias that were heavily oppressed by Saddam.


Posted by PaulST
It’s just our society where no-one wants to fight. I agree that war is a terrible thing, but sometimes is it needed. I suppose the Left-wing protesters didn’t support the D-day invasion either… Have a look at Sudan now, hundreds of thousands of people are being killed by Islamic militia from the north and nothing is being done about it. IMO, Australia should lead a peace-keeping force into the area, maybe France, Germany and Russia could get back some respectability and help too??
Flappist being the first, this is the second reference to anti-war public being directly associated with the left-wing. I'm sure, you understand that, having a point of view regarding this war, doesn't represent one's political views. If anyone is in favour of this war solely because they consider themselves to be right-wing, I am sorry to say, I have no respect for their opinion. On the other hand, if anyone think that all the refugees should be freed, solely because they are left-wing, here is a tissue for your issue. For this reason alone, Andrew Bolt's opinion will never have the slightest impact on me; he is always extreme right-winger. Knowing the subject at hand is enough for me to know what his point of view would be.

Regarding Sudan, how can you suggest Australia to lead a piece keeping force there...? How do you suggest we fund this...?
Having a few hundred troops there will not have any effect, apart from costing many Australian lives. These wars are still fought in sheer numbers and I am afraid you have no chance of a favourable outcome unless you commit with some very heavy forces. It would be nice for countries like France, Germany and Russia, as well as many others, to contribute, but isn't this what UN is about...? That is another can of worms, the theory is perfect, but the outcomes are quite lacking.

[HOWQUICK]

From our American cousins........

"Shitty Little Country" ( quote from the French Ambassador)

Here is a capsule of accomplishments you may not be fully
aware of. I thought you might find these statistics interesting.

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries.
The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder

Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in
the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were
developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at
Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely
made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside
the US in Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was
developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U. S, Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline
industry's most impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now
look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate
neighbors combined. Israel has the highest percentage in the
world of home computers per capita.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the
population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other
nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as
one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the
largest number of startup companies than any other country in
the world, except the U. S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel
has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the Silicon Valley, U. S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right
behind the U. S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest
number of NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle
East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech
startups.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university
degrees -- ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland - and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian
Jews at risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969,
she became the world's second elected female leader in modern
times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the
highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the
world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-
absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.

[HOWQUICK]

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly
process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as
"conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st
century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully
computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for
ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video
camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly
helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight
device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-
scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable
enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.

AND THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR IN ENGLAND SAYS WE
ARE NOTHING BUT A SHITTY LITTLE COUNTRY !!!

Prof. D. Koller
Institute of Life Sciences
The Hebrew University
Jerusalem 91904, Israel

Don't know how much is fact........thought the cell phone was an Aussie thing.

[Beej]

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside
the US in Israel.


I can tell you FOR SURE that the above is complete Bullshit!! Let's just say that I work in the AUSTRALIAN R&D Centre for one of the companies mentioned above - and I also happen to know of all the other R&D sites that the company has around the world, and which ones came first too. There is one in Israel, but it hasn't done anything ground breaking and was only recently set-up due to the acquisition of a another company started over there.

The fact that the above is stated as fact but is simply untrue makes me doubt the veracity of the rest of the quoted article - I suspect it is a bag of pro-Israeli propaganda and lies.

Cheers,

Beej

[HOWQUICK]

I can tell you FOR SURE that the above is complete Bullshit!! Let's just say that I work in the AUSTRALIAN R&D Centre for one of the companies mentioned above - and I also happen to know of all the other R&D sites that the company has around the world, and which ones came first too. There is one in Israel, but it hasn't done anything ground breaking and was only recently set-up due to the acquisition of a another company started over there.

The fact that the above is stated as fact but is simply untrue makes me doubt the veracity of the rest of the quoted article - I suspect it is a bag of pro-Israeli propaganda and lies.

Cheers,

Beej




Don't know how much is fact........thought the cell phone was an Aussie thing.

this stuff circles the world and is used to fortify arguments.........anyone else got some holes to shoot in it? ;)

[Emre]

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-
absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.
While this may be true, I just want to point out that, just about all of those immigrants came from former USSR in the early 90s, all of them being Jews.

Israel is certainly not the multi-cultural immigrant heaven like Australia, or even US.

[Kirium]

I don't know what any of that's got to do with the movie Farenheit 9/11...

[HOWQUICK]

It is amazing how the facts are unimportant to so many, and how soon they forget! (Read through to the bottom!)


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D - MA), and others Oct. 9,1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has . chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." >- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that .. Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9,2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

[HOWQUICK]

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

SO NOW EVERY ONE OF THESE PEOPLE SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED--THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR UNNECESSARILY!

Send this to everybody you know..The media and networks won't do it. Why do you suppose that is?

another email from our cousins.........

[Kirium]

Not hard to tell they're die-hard republicans.... :rolleyes:

[XA coupe]

more Michael Moore goodness

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/13/1092340428762.html

edit: more bad spelling goodness

[HOWQUICK]

just to show that not everyone takes it toooo seriously over there........

http://www.jibjab.com/default.asp

3 meg....but worth it for the laugh. :D