A rather dissapointing alloytec review

[vzsv6]

I don't understand. The BA platform is the newest platform in the Ford world. Its low cost, hugely flexable, makes the widest number of varients, fits any engine, has remarkable abilities for its segment and is extremely strong and is very modern. Ford has tried utilising other smaller platforms and scaling them up and they have usually failed.



Witness the failure of DEW98.. which was hailed as the next big thing, which all rwd cars would be made of.. First up new mustang, with in a few weeks they knew a DEW98 platform mustang was never going to be feasable, so they tossed it out and developed its own unique platform.. Now its doubtful if DEW98 will ever see usage outside of the Jag and Lincon twins. All hail the death of DEW98. Mustang doesn't use it too expensive, to slow to produce, to complicated and not flexable enough...

The falcon platform can fit any engine Ford can make. Its the only one in the entire ford empire. It could reasonably use anything from a 4 cylinder to a V10 or V12. Alloy or iron. Petrol, diesel or even LPG. Turbo'd or supercharged, and easily pass crash tests too. Ford spent $500 mill on BA and $500 mill on Territory. I don't really see how ford would blow Billions on a platform that is not going to live onwards, upwards, and replace it with a older, inferior, heavily compromised one that is unsuitable. DEW98 had problems even fitting the more compact V8's.. Forget about wedging some 5.4L donk in there..

Even more rub in the wound, the FPV GT laps faster than a S-type R jaguar.. Some even claim better handling feel and better comfort.

I honestly don't see the falcon platform dying off in two years. If Ford wants to can the I6 well, thats another issue, the Falcon platform can easily accept a V6 of any capacity or any type. Ford has much worse engines than the Falcon's.. Like the vulcan series, OHV, 3.9L crud. Its a notoriously evil engine ford should have scrapped ages ago. Yet they still churn them out.. Stick them in a million mustangs and awe at its feebleness.

The main advantage of the Falcon engine is its cheap to make, quick to make, proven, and a entire industry is setup for them. While Ford could kill it, they would either have to retool ford OZ, costing hundreads of millions, or cut losses on all that new expensive machinery they bought for the BA engine production and lose hundreads of millions. Ford can afford to put VCT units on both inlet and exaust cams, while holden cannot, because the Falcons only got 2 cams, the HFV6 has 4. Twice the cost for holden.. Sure they could kill it, but replace it with what? Which six cylinder engine makes 240kw? or 550Nm of torque? or has 182Kw in a commerical low cost ute with 4 valves per cylinder and twin VCT.

Plenty of platforms are made for less than <100,000 cars.. Fords OZ profitable doing this, and if it can partner another country to manufacture as well (china will do nicely where the low cost falcon benifits and technology will work) it will be very profitable.

I honestly don't buy this BS that the Falcon platform is completely unable to be converted to LHD. It just takes money. Ford HQ does want Ford OZ to have RHD capability just yet. Holden only got LHD manufacture because of a secret operation with Buick which when GM found out, killed it.. Afraid no doubt of causing problems.. Problems like having Holden run its rwd platform..

The Barra I6 in my opinion is superior to the Duratec V6. Its bigger, cheaper with more suitable charateristics for Australia and the falcon. Its a improvement on Duratec, the head is superior, valve action is a improvement, VCT is superior.. You could even call it a Duratec motor if you want in I6 formation.

However you don't need the I6 engine in the falcon. You could make Falcons in the USA, with a 4.6 SOHC modular and 4.6L DOHC modular. You could make them in china with 2.3L 4 cyl, 2.5 and 3.0L V6 duratecs.. With such small engines you would have plenty of room for a LHD conversion. Also cutting weight.

It infact wouldn't suprise me if Ford China purchased all of Ford Oz's tooling, and made Falcons, LWB, Territories in china but using several diffrent local components. While Ford Australia moved ahead with its all new platform, another evolution off the old. The two wouldn't be in competition, Ford China would still get pretty sweet cars, Ford australia would get what they want, and both could work together on many shared projects.

Well, that just about put me to sleep....

WHO CARES.... I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT THE ALLOYTEC V6!!!

[seldo]

Good intelligent well-researched post Phido, but I thought this was an Alloytech thread. Try FF. :)

[Swordie]

Interesting comments about the Ford. Just because something is technically better and makes good business sense does not mean it will have traction. It more due to politics.

[SSbaby]

If the holden engines excel so much, why is there a need to bag the ford engines in a thread about the alloytec ?? is it relevant ?? :bash:
I suppose at least the status is quo ... there is always one and it seems ot's always the same one. :rolleyes:


I love you too! :love2:

Sorry for responding to a post, started by one of your members. BTW, if you want to read a thread that bags the red team, you don't have to look outside your borders. ;)

Not many are actually 'bagging' the 4.0L six in the thread. It's like anything, customers have a choice and if it isn't glaringly obvious to those shopping for a medium-large car, they mightn't care about fuel economy...and consider a Falcon.

You and I should catch up for a few ambers, you're taking me too seriously!

[Phido]

I'm currently on the outs at FF, I get ins trouble I do... Over comments about the MkII update. I'm usually weary of entering indepth discussions now over there.

I know its about the alloytec, but like many things its all related. Platform, engines, what competitors are doing.. etc.. I don't think Ford would have gone twin cam if Holden wasn't obviously planning a big upgraded HFV6 etc.. Commodore wouldn't have kept growing in size if the falcon wasn't around etc..

In summery I like the HFV6, atleast in high series form. It will be interesting where Holden take it and to actually get to drive it. I don't expect the 175Kw version to blow away ford. But the 190kw high series with 5 speed/6 speed manual was a smart move and has ford at a disadvantage. More power, extra ratio, better fuel economy etc..

With a nice six cylinder it will be interesting to see if a CV6 returns, or if say the SV6/Calais makes a trip over to the UK. Calais and SV6 would make interesting Vauxhalls. With the Alloytec it could make it viable. Possibly with a SS joining them later as part of a niche lineup.

[payaya]

no company would bother with upgrades if it wasnt for competition!

BMW, Mercdes, VW all strive on competetion, thats how the world works.

[commomate]

Studying the specs on the Alloytec its streets ahead technology wise and it should be its a new engine



Which are?

[commomate]

Most advanced engine seen in a long time in any Aus produced car, variable valve timing on inlet and exhaust valve cams (175 inlet only) as well as variable intake manifold.


Falcon has had variable timing since the au XR6's and variable inlet manifold since the EF's

[payaya]

the BA I6 is just as advanced as the Alloytech.

BA I6 is way more advanced than the 3.8L, but is just a tad behind on some features.

But what does timing on the exhuast, inlet cams mean to 80% of people buying the Ford and Holden?

"Um what does that mean?"

all people want to know, and car about is smoothness, fuel economy, and power.

Did you ever see a massive argument by a masses, on the 3.8L not having overhead cams, cam timing, drive by wire etc? No, people really dont care!

Specs are one thing, the engine doing what its meant to is another thing.

So when you study the specs on the Gen3 VS the 5.4L DOHC does that mean the ford is way advanced?

Yes it is, the 5.4L SOHC had cam timing etc, but does that mean the LS1, is junk? No.

[commomate]

Thirdly there is the current Falcon chassis, which like the engine has roots in the middle of the last century - not necessarily bad, but times and needs change. If it were designed with an integrated IRS the Control Blade fixtures wouldn't likely weigh 50kg.

I hope for local enthusiasts' sake Ford Oz can pull a rabbit out of the hat, and produce another competitive version. But it'll need to address size, weight and economy issues. It is hard to see how the current platform can do that. If they build a new engine it needs to be smaller/lighter so the car can be. If petrol goes down to 50c a litre it won't have to. Is this likely to happen? Otherwise the new Holden is just 'round the corner. It is likely to be both lighter and stronger than the replaced platform, as it should being two decades younger


Whats wrong with the Falcon chassis at the momment it is miles ahead of the commodore and has superior suspension front and rear and alot stiffer Eg no need for strut braces.
Once holden put on a decent rmultilink front & rear suspension and stiffened chassis the weight will go up on so will the fuel economy so that will even up a bit

[cutter bob]

the BA I6 is just as advanced as the Alloytech.

BA I6 is way more advanced than the 3.8L, but is just a tad behind on some features.

But what does timing on the exhuast, inlet cams mean to 80% of people buying the Ford and Holden?

"Um what does that mean?"

all people want to know, and car about is smoothness, fuel economy, and power.

Did you ever see a massive argument by a masses, on the 3.8L not having overhead cams, cam timing, drive by wire etc? No, people really dont care!

Specs are one thing, the engine doing what its meant to is another thing.

So when you study the specs on the Gen3 VS the 5.4L DOHC does that mean the ford is way advanced?

Yes it is, the 5.4L SOHC had cam timing etc, but does that mean the LS1, is junk? No.

very well put!!!

[SSbaby]

While we're on the subject of the Alloytec, here's another VZ review from NZ... seems like the journo's are driving completely different cars.

Click here (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3006039a2021,00.html)


ALLOYTEC HERE TO STAY

Steel cranked, with chain-driven DOHC valve trains, the Alloytec might be a fairly conventional, albeit powerful and refined 3.6-litre unit now, but the engine is destined to remain current in the GM scheme of things for decades.

It is designed to eventually gain supercharging and direct-injection, and possibly to even become a diesel, while driving the front, rear and all four wheels of various members of Holden's extended GM family.

Already Cadillac and Buick use Alloytec engines, and before long such names as Alfa Romeo, Saab, Opel and Vauxhall will join the throng, with both inline mounted and transverse versions of the Holden-built unit.

In the VZ Commodore, the Alloytec is a real smoothie, slurring especially well through the new five-speed automatic transmission, but also matching up more than satisfactorily with the Aisin six- speed manual gearbox.

With the crisp-shifting unit, it appears to easily meet Holden's posted sub seven second zero to 100kmh times for the SV6 model.

Unfortunately, for all Holden's good work on its old four-speed automatic, the base Alloytec powered cars do feel short-changed when compared to the new five- speed editions, which really show the way in terms of refinement and lack of shift-shock.

The engine's complexity largely cancels out the advantages of its alloy construction and with the variables of transmission and specification choices, VZ Commodores are only between 5kg and 27kg lighter than preceding VYII models.

Holden says when comparing automatic versions of the new and old ranges average fuel consumption has improved only from 11.3L/100km to 11.1L/100km. However, such a minimal improvement should be tempered with the fact that the old Holden 3.8-litre unit was already a fairly frugal unit.

[Dacious]

Whats wrong with the Falcon chassis at the momment it is miles ahead of the commodore and has superior suspension front and rear and alot stiffer Eg no need for strut braces.
Once holden put on a decent rmultilink front & rear suspension and stiffened chassis the weight will go up on so will the fuel economy so that will even up a bit

Despite the 'superior' Ford chassis the Holden is more economical in the base versions and has the same or better performance from less hp in the faster versions, V6-I6, V8-V8. That's what's wrong with it. If the Holden rode and handled like a gravel wagon, which it demonstrably doesn't even though maybe not quite as compliant, then people might forgive the extra weight. I'm not trying to convince you the Holden is better - it isn't, but it is lighter. I bet the VE will be, unless the designers make some blunder.

Of all the Falcon, XR, FPV reviews I've read, the one biggest common complaint is the weight of the car. It helps ride but hinders handling, braking, economy, roadholding, acceleration. Offer a car designer 50hp or 50kg off for the same cost and see which one he goes for. The 50hp extra in the motor with the same weight will create costs all the way down the line - suspension, tyres, brakes, extra stress on transmissions, diffs etc. The Yanks are engineering a new auto for the 50hp extra LS2 GTO, and they aren't doing it because they are good guys!

Take off 50kg through better design without weakening or special materials, and you save money all the way, along with improved handling, performance, economy and in durability of tyres, brakes and driveline components.

When the current Ford and Holden chassis were designed they didn't have the computer-aided capabilities they have now. They prototyped over months, made lots of trial units and if something prematurely cracked in destruction or durability testing, slapped on some welded fillets or braces to stop it or increased steel guage and tested again, even though it might be treating the symptom not the problem. Now they can come up with an optimimal size and shape for everything, and only need to test to confirm.

The thing comes out of the press needing less afterwork, lighter, simpler and lower cost. Every extra process adds increases cost, design issues and adds to extra QC checks, rework and scrap.

As for Holden with the VE, if the next Falcon chassis isn't superior in every way to the current for weight, strength, crashability, durability they will be in trouble.

[Merlin]

Despite the 'superior' Ford chassis the Holden is more economical in the base versions and has the same or better performance from less hp in the faster versions, V6-I6, V8-V8. That's what's wrong with it. If the Holden rode and handled like a gravel wagon, which it demonstrably doesn't even though maybe not quite as compliant, then people might forgive the extra weight. I'm not trying to convince you the Holden is better - it isn't, but it is lighter. I bet the VE will be, unless the designers make some blunder.
.

If the VE gets a proper IRS setup then weight will go up - both cars are the same dimensions, Fords weight disadvantage stems from its more sophisticated suspension (and to a lesser extent its engines are also heavier) Maybe keeping an older suspension design is better for the VE in order to keep weight down - then again the journos always bag out the Commodore for its handling (especially the SS) saying it relies soley on tyre grip. There is really not much Holden can do here - whats the solution?

[Danv8]

[QUOTE=Phido]I'm currently on the outs at FF, I get ins trouble I do... Over comments about the MkII update. I'm usually weary of entering indepth discussions now over there.

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LOL I notice the tension gets a bit tight over there as well. :) I no longer post there.
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I know its about the alloytec, but like many things its all related. Platform, engines, what competitors are doing.. etc.. I don't think Ford would have gone twin cam if Holden wasn't obviously planning a big upgraded HFV6 etc.. Commodore wouldn't have kept growing in size if the falcon wasn't around etc..

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Indeed I am just going to put my 2 cents worth in about the Falcon 6. I think the Falcon 6 is a great engine with lots of torque and it does the job perfectly for a large and heavy car like the BA. I find it rather unfair that people call it a boat anchor. It is rather high tech well its up to the standards of technology of other DOHC engines now and Holden has caught up with the new HFV6. The Ford vs Holden slinging match is really really getting old now since they are very similar to each other in different and same ways..

[Ghia351]

While we're on the subject of the Alloytec, here's another VZ review from NZ... seems like the journo's are driving completely different cars.

Click here (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3006039a2021,00.html)

Not really, I think the Drive/Fairfax article is the only two brand comparo to date, I haven't read anything anywhere else apart from VZ-only impressions.

Slightly O/T..Does anyone know how much the VZ Calais has gone up in price over VYII, as I'm trying to work out the price premium of the 190kW V6/A5 between models allowing for a gain in spec levels. VZ is listed as rrp. $52,660 and nolonger lists the VYII Calais rrp.

[Phido]

VZ also got leather standard.. I don't think there is a premium as such.. Just a more expensive models get better engines and transmissions.

Value my car at drive.com.au can tell you the origional price of any car for the past 20 years and also current value, spec level, power, economy etc..

[Ghia351]

VZ also got leather standard.. I don't think there is a premium as such.. Just a more expensive models get better engines and transmissions.

Value my car at drive.com.au can tell you the origional price of any car for the past 20 years and also current value, spec level, power, economy etc..

perfecto..thanks