Heal Toeing

[JA SV8]

Hey,

Was just wondering how many of youse drive with the heal toe style? and how effective or easy is it? I have been giving it a shot with luck sometimes and not others!

Cheers
James

[HRT Stroker]

Drive like this whenever I drive a manual, provided the pedal placment is suitable.

After you get the hang of it it will become second nature...........

Ball of foot or toes on the brake pedal, rock heel or side of foot on accelaerator pedal, idea is to match engine with driveline speed during downchange.

I decided to learn after watching the pedal box of one P.Brock during a Bathurst telecast when I was 14......

Thanks Brocky!!

[cheffy]

I always drive a manual like it.... (i did learn to drive in a race car though..)

like HRT Stroker pointed out, it just takes practice.....

[dpac]

yer i do it all the time when i drive a manual.....

i learnt to do it in a truck with air brakes and damn it aint easy.... u put the slightest pressure on it and they almost lock up, let alone using that same foot to bring the rev's up.....

as said above it just takes practise and then comes second nature

[racketsports]

Anyone know of any sites where this is shown in detail. It may help to improve my heel toeing as sometimes it is woeful, others make you look like a pro. I would like to become a bit more consistant. :cool:

[dvx]

i can't do it for the life of me, i cant do it on commodores becuase the pedal placement is shithouse.
I find that my legs just dont bend that way, or maybe my legs are on the seat too much? does anyone else find this or do my legs just suck?
Its also about getting the brake to stay steady when you rock your foot. Guess ill have to pactice when im stopped at the lights in my auto :limpy:

Its really only good for shifts for second to third in normal driving or downshifts in every gear for spirited driving. Fun to learn though!

[VeeTee346]

Well, I'm 6'4" with size 13's, not sure if that's got anything to do with why I could never quite master the heel 'n toe. But I second the motion that the pedal placement isn't ideal for this in the first place.

The only massive downshift that I'd use is on the open road during overtaking.. fortunately no braking involved in that! Otherwise it's a blip here and there during coasting.

[my_Berlina]

I heel & toe when driving a manual, takes practice, initially I was simply blipping the throttle
to raise the revs to some random but higher level, with practice I was usefully matchin the
revs, and at some point in time (without any concious decision that I recall), I started doing
hill starts via heel & toe.

It is a good skill worth learning, along with the double de-clutch. Actually those rev-matching
skills came in very handy when my clutch knee sh1t itself (arthritis) and I ended up driving for
about 3 weeks only using the clutch for starts, before changing gearbox to an auto.

Dave !

[Roger]

Yeah, usually only use it when doing 'spirited' driving downshifts.

If you're driving sedately, theoretically if your downchanging, you have the opportunity to blip the pedal after lifting from the brake to match revs to roadspeed to the desired gear.

Learnt to drive a truck crash box years ago & double clutch on nearly all shifts through habit.

Agree the Commodore pedal position doesn't make it the easiest of moves either.

[Tony66]

Is there any way to adjust the brake pedal to a lower position thus allowing an easier heel toe pedal alignment? I find my brake pedal is way to high to do this relative to the accelarator pedal. This leaves me releasing brakes for a moment to blip throttle on downchange then re applying brakes. Not really satisfactory...

[hqracer]

The pedal placement is sh!t....I can toe/heal my hq, but ive welded a bigger brake pedal on so it makes it easier. As for the HSV.....a lot harder!

[nthnbeachesguy]

Well, I'm 6'4" with size 13's, not sure if that's got anything to do with why I could never quite master the heel 'n toe. But I second the motion that the pedal placement isn't ideal for this in the first place.

The only massive downshift that I'd use is on the open road during overtaking.. fortunately no braking involved in that! Otherwise it's a blip here and there during coasting.

Im 6'3" and shoe size between 12-13, i find its a piece of piss, i reckon having a big foot makes it easier although i wouldnt say i have mastered it completely. I agree its only useful during spirited driving, it impacts negatively on fuel economy ha ha ha!!!!!

[CarlFST60L]

Heal toe is the best thing since sliced bread...

When i was learning, a couple of times i put a little to much heal in it, over rev'ed and nearly over shot my mark, almost down chirps :eek: (well... not really that bad)

It comes as second nature after time...

[Octane]

I have always heel-and-toed as I used it to hide the fact that all the syncros in my first car (HR Prem) were shot. It is great fun and a real joy to get right which comes after practice.

However, I had a Twin Cam Corolla; it was a dark and stormy night and I was wearing hard soled shoes. I went to heel and toe when the wet sole of my shoe slipped off the brake and my foot nailed the accelerator for a split second before I lifted off... the damage was done though - the left front got onto the grass and like it said it had been raining so the Corolla skated straight into a large Gum tree.

:doh:

[vxcalaiszzz]

I find dettol and a band-aid is good for healing toes, and heels :p

[HSVGTS215i]

I also find it hard to heel toe so to speak so I toe toe ie most of my foot on the brake and just enough of the side of my foot on the gas to give it a blip on downchanges so no need to twist the foot. With the commo pedla setup its really unco trying to twist my foot to get my heel onto the gas pedal.

[Roddy]

Hoep Holden rectifies the pedal placement for VZ. I had an Alfa Sprint years back and it's pedal placement was perfect for heel/toe......admittedly it was built for short legged long armed monkeys, but you can't have everything.

[Merlin]

Have you been watching too much Fast and Furious? I live my life a quarter mile at a time :lol:

[carneb]

I find dettol and a band-aid is good for healing toes, and heels :p

I'm glad someone finally said it. Thats the frist thing I thought of when I read the title! :D

[JA SV8]

Seems i miss spelt the title :P But after HEEL toeing in a commodore you made need to heal your toe anyways!
Thanks for the insite people!

[SSL51]

I find it easier when you are braking very hard. Must be because the brake pedal is lower. With some cars you can use left side of foot to hit brake and right side of foot to blip throttle but in my vy ss ute you have to use heel on throttle and toe on brake. Blew my little brother away one day heel toeing from 4th 3rd 2nd to1st perfectly (if I do say so myself lol) so she had plenty of go out of the corner without any jerkyness. Most satisfying when you get it right. I started doing just for the sound of the blip down through the gears.

[eed-250]

HSVGTS i do it like u do.
and SSL51, i find it easier hard braking too!
must say alot of ppl on the forums do it, but when ever i see a hot manaul car, RARELY do i see the driver doing it. especially ricerburners

[vxcalaiszzz]

I'm glad someone finally said it. Thats the frist thing I thought of when I read the title! :D

Hey, I might not be the most technically minded poster on the forum but I try to add value where I can :rolleyes:

[HSVGTS215i]

Seems i miss spelt the title :P But after HEEL toeing in a commodore you made need to heal your toe anyways!
Thanks for the insite people!

Insight

hahahahha sorry couldn't resist

[vxcalaiszzz]

Seems i miss spelt the title :P But after HEEL toeing in a commodore you made need to heal your toe anyways!
Thanks for the insite people!

misspelt
may

hahahahha sorry couldn't resist

[seldo]

Originally Posted by JA SV8
Seems i miss spelt the title :P But after HEEL toeing in a commodore you made need to heal your toe anyways!
Thanks for the insite people!



misspelt
may

hahahahha sorry couldn't resist

But you missed the other one - "insite" ( insight)
Touche! ;)

[vxcalaiszzz]

But you missed the other one - "insite" ( insight)
Touche! ;)

You missed HSVGTS215i
Touche! :p

[seldo]

You missed HSVGTS215i
Touche! :p
Got me! ;)

[Redfox]

Yeah I find it quite hard to heel/toe in the VT commodores (even tho I drive an auto... anyd no, I don't try to heel/toe in an auto!!).

The pedal arrangement is a bit retarded and it seems much easier to "heel/toe" with the left and right sides of the foot like some other people have mentioned. But the prob with this is that I think it's much harder to accurately control your braking with the left/right sides of foot as opposed to proper heel/toeing.

I think in order to correctly do it, aftermarket pedal sets must be installed to give the accelerator a bit of extra length. Infact some aftermarket pedals have a bit sticking out to the left to assist even more.

Another slight problem with heel toeing is the fact that the commodore gas pedals are spring loaded but reasonably lightly so if you can't get your heel all the way over the middle of the pedal, the accelerator doesn't really depress properly. Has anyone else experienced this?

I guess you have to do it like european cars, altho the commodore pedals are a bit far apart I reckon. You need BIG feet!

[seldo]

Just bear in mind that you don't have to heel'n'toe, you can also toe'n'heel. There is no rule that says you must use a certain part of your foot to push the accelerator with. Depending on the car and the layout of the pedals I have in the past even used my heel to brake with, and used my toe to press the throttle linkage. So, it is something you need to go and practise away from other cars, but use any part of your foot to push the bits that need pushin'.. ;) Once you have a bit of practise it is quite easy and certainly makes driving more enjoyable..:burnout: :driving:

[Wazza]

So how exactly do you know how much extra throttle you need to match driveline speed? Ive never really understood how to heel toe, i kinda understand why you do it, but not how you know when you got it right (and yeah i know practise makes perfect, but its far better to practise with some knowledge of how to do it :D)

[GTS]

I'm 6'6 with size 14 shoes and I love to heel n toe down through the gears, but both the VT II R8 I had and the current GTS have the same shitty pedal placement. The accelerator is a long way lower than the brake, even when braking hard. I also admit to preferring to use one side of my foot on the brake and the other side on the accelerator.... much easier with the limited leg room in the Commodore.

When I bought the R8 I asked the dealer and later called HSV to see if there was a pedal mod available to fix the height problem, but apparently the people who design HSV’s ( and Commodores too) don’t know how to heel n toe, so they don’t need to fix this irritating problem.

[Redfox]

So how exactly do you know how much extra throttle you need to match driveline speed? Ive never really understood how to heel toe, i kinda understand why you do it, but not how you know when you got it right (and yeah i know practise makes perfect, but its far better to practise with some knowledge of how to do it :D)
As you said it's just a matter of practice. I think you'll find that after a while you get used to the proper sound and engine braking characteristics when you blip it right and you'll just know. It will always change depending on how you are driving, how fast you are going, and how soon you want to stop I suppose...

[SS Enforcer]

So how exactly do you know how much extra throttle you need to match driveline speed? Ive never really understood how to heel toe, i kinda understand why you do it, but not how you know when you got it right (and yeah i know practise makes perfect, but its far better to practise with some knowledge of how to do it :D)

Basically you just have to practise down shifting and matching the revs first before you try doing it fancy like.

When you get it right you will know as it will be a smooth transition between shifts.

I drive a road ranger and get loads of practice at this

[Rt!]

I try, im not very good at it.. I think a possible mod is to raise the accelerator pedal about 2-3 cms (as in pulling it outwards)

I just give it a bleep and then use the clutch to catch the revs, I hope Im doing it right..

[Redfox]

Yeah well since i'm fully un-co I just double clutch without the heel toeing. Just take my foot off the brake blip the gas, then back on the brake. I can usually do it pretty smoothly so you don't notice, but obviously you can't do that when you are coming in for a really hard stop. And that's on my brother's bmw so you gotta use the sides of your foot which I find quite hard too. I need to borrow my mates MG and try it in that... :)

[seldo]

So how exactly do you know how much extra throttle you need to match driveline speed? Ive never really understood how to heel toe, i kinda understand why you do it, but not how you know when you got it right (and yeah i know practise makes perfect, but its far better to practise with some knowledge of how to do it :D)
It's totally just in being able to listen to the engine revs and judge the correct engine revs for that road-speed in that gear. I learned when i was a kid on an old dodge that had a crash-box and no brakes, so i had use the gears all the time to slow it. If you are very good at it you should be able to do it without even using the clutch. Not recommended but it is as easy as, if you are good.. Aw shucks..:)

[Drewie]

I was reading a few articles on Google re 'Heel & Toe' techniques, whenever I drive a manual I always use it in conjuction with 'double de-clutching' drove manuals for many years over 20, and was also a driving instructor for many years, I noticed on Google there are several articles using 'Heel & Toe' with a single clutch action which they say seems to be the newer trend, what's the thoughts on that? Probably not as friendly on the Synchros using the single clutch method. I have always double clutch just habit I guess.

[CarlFST60L]

what's the thoughts on that? Probably not as friendly on the Synchros using the single clutch method. I have always double clutch just habit I guess.

Double clutching, thats pretty old school... you'd be easy picken's around a track... :stick:

My thoughts, I heel toe to slow down quickly and maintain good traction, and in daily driving, stops the head jerk as you let the clutch out on down shift... nothing in there to do with saving the box...

These gear box's are good for 600Kw with a clutch upgade... everything else will last for year's being trashed by the most novice driver...

[Drewie]

'WORKEDVYSV8'... thanks for your thoughts, will give the single method a go next time I am out in a manual, old habits die hard, just so used to the double method comes as second nature but always willing to try new techniques.......

[cheffy]

easy pickings eh.....
don't think so.. If you do it properly you can downshift much faster... Maybe you need to learn how to do it properly.. :stick:

In the race car we sort of put it in nutral without the clutch and then rev, clutch in shift and clutch out..

Best book I ever read on it was carroll Smiths drive to win.....

[Redfox]

Yeah I double clutch too... seems much smoother that way. Clutch in, neutral, clutch out, rev, clutch in, put in gear, clutch out. Seems complex but with enough practice it becomes second nature.

[CarlFST60L]

easy pickings eh.....
don't think so.. If you do it properly you can downshift much faster... Maybe you need to learn how to do it properly.. :stick:

In the race car we sort of put it in nutral without the clutch and then rev, clutch in shift and clutch out..

Best book I ever read on it was carroll Smiths drive to win.....

I just love the little stick guy :stick: makes it fun :D

When you say 'WE', as in race car drivers, what do you drive/race? What box do they run?

My T56 dosnt like going into neutral without the clutch at 6500rpm, you have to reef the sh!t out of it to get it out of the gear, even at low rev's... Can anyone else pop gears at rev's? is somthing wrong with my box?

V8 supercar drivers dont double clutch, I love watching the foot cam, it goes clutch in, pull gear stick quick as possible while bliping throttle, not with the heel but the by twisting the brake foot onto the throttle, clutch out... little diffrent setup to ye old T56 but same principle, and no blip in neutral as the gear stick goes from one gear to the other so quick there is no time for a blip in neutral...

[VUSSFIFTY]

Best book I ever read on it was carroll Smiths drive to win.....
I'll second that!
Just reving with the clutch in (not double declutching) works cause there's some clutch drag that spins up the input shaft.
Always heal toe the ute, especially turn 2 at eastern creek and the end of the straight at Oran Park GP, otherwise T56's don't appreciate going straight from 5th to 2nd!
I learnt to drive in Italian rust buckets, so been heal toeing since I was on my L's, otherwise you can't get the bastards into gear.

[GTS]

V8 supercar drivers dont double clutch, I love watching the foot cam, it goes clutch in, pull gear stick quick as possible while bliping throttle, not with the heel but the by twisting the brake foot onto the throttle, clutch out... little diffrent setup to ye old T56 but same principle, and no blip in neutral as the gear stick goes from one gear to the other so quick there is no time for a blip in neutral...

V8 Supercars run a dog box which is totally different to anything you would want to run on the road. The reason you blip the throttle to match rev's is to ease the job of the syncromesh rings. A dog box doesnt have syncro's and they are designed to shift quickly, NOT smoothly.

[cheffy]

Raced Formula 3, Formula Ford, Formula Vee, Saloon cars, Sports Sedans, V8 supercars(soon)...

The downshift to nutral is done without a clutch and then you usually put the clutch in on the way to the next gear... For those of you complaining about the pedal arrangements, I've never had a problem in any car and I have size 13 feet.. (Bloody painful in a modern race car!!!!)

The F3 and Formula Fords run a dog box which doesn't have syncro...

[RARASV8]

:rolleyes:
SHIT! when i do this the tyres smoke up! :lol:
Maybe i should get the foot of the BRAKE!!!!!!!!!!!! :bash:

[CarlFST60L]

Raced Formula 3, Formula Ford, Formula Vee, Saloon cars, Sports Sedans, V8 supercars(soon)...

The downshift to nutral is done without a clutch and then you usually put the clutch in on the way to the next gear... For those of you complaining about the pedal arrangements, I've never had a problem in any car and I have size 13 feet.. (Bloody painful in a modern race car!!!!)

The F3 and Formula Fords run a dog box which doesn't have syncro...

Your going to race supercars? what car? In the actual series? When? Would be good to have an V8 insider among us...

I gotta get my car out on a track! Anyone know what i gotta do to get my car around oran park or eastern creek... not really worried about cost just wanna do it! Maybe Cheffy could come along and teach me some moves :D

[BLACK1]

Throttle pedal is in a bad position for heel and toe for me and obviously some others. For me it was to far away and to far forward of the brake pedal when pushed..
Simple solution.........
Remove the pedal...easily done...drop the panel under the steering wheel and remove the circlip holding the pedal and bent rod and remove the cable from the top...
Cut the rod where it turns horizontal and remove how much you want the throttle pedal closer to the brake pedal and reweld it..
Refit to the car and test.
If it still does not suit then take it out again and bend or twist it in a vice to suit.

Hope this helps

[Wazza]

I gotta get my car out on a track! Anyone know what i gotta do to get my car around oran park or eastern creek... not really worried about cost just wanna do it! Maybe Cheffy could come along and teach me some moves :D

Youve already made the first step joining commperformance mate :D Im planning on arranging a track day at Wakefield park in the next couple of months, just waiting to hear when they have free spots avaliable on weekends, otherwise theres a possibility of doing it on a weekday - but probably less members will come due to work etc :)

PS Wakefield is alot better than EC or OP if youre a novice racer....... youve gotta be doing something extremely stupid to hit a wall :D HEAPS of runoff etc.

[lucas]

Im planning on arranging a track day at Wakefield park in the next couple of months, just waiting to hear when they have free spots avaliable on weekends, otherwise theres a possibility of doing it on a weekday - but probably less members will come due to work etc :)
If you can get that up, especially on a weekend, you have a guaranteed starter here :D

[CarlFST60L]

Let me know wazza, i'll be there 4 sure!

[VI11AN]

I learned to do it during Motorvation at Oran Park.. Very handy skill to have. Unfortunantly at the moment Im driving an auto...

*Hangs head in shame*

On that note.. The Motorvation driver training (with Ian / Warren Luff) was pretty good, the level 3 training for racing was very interesting.. Highly recommended.

[cheffy]

Cant say too much just yet,,, I have a test before the end of the year....

I can't wait..:)