VZ review with Murph - first hand

[HSVMAN]

Today I was able to, along with others including Greg Murphy put a number VZ models to the test.
We were able to directly compare with both VY and competing products including BA Falcon/Fairmont and all the main stream Japanese brands.

Engines/Transmissions
Firstly we were treated an indepth presentation of the development and features of the Alloytec V6 leaving no doubt in my mind that this unit is and will be for some time the most advanced engine to be developed in Australia. Not only from a technological point of view but also in terms of current and future capabilities here and world wide.
I am also convinced that the future for 6 cylinder engines of a capacity greater than 3.5 litres is in V format.
In driving the cars the new engine is recognisable by its stronger exhaust note, lack of high speed harshness and its ability to rev so much more freely.
The 175 is an improvement over the old 3.8L engine in terms of smoothness, free reving power and torque characteristics yet would be difficult for the average Joe to know he was driving anything different. But coupled with the upgraded four speed auto (4L60) the Alloytec provides a much more pleasurable driving experience. The 4 speed is now a lot smoother and more predictable.
The 190 stands apart from all others with substantial power increase thanks to its variable intake manifold and continuously variable cam phasing on both inlet and exhaust camshafts, coupled with the new 5 spd Auto (5L40). The later is actually much more drivable than a manual (in my opinion) when the steering wheel paddles are put to use (Active Select)

Handling
This is perhaps one of the most improved features of the whole range. Brakes are in a different world and the steering is more precise on all models due to Stabilisor Bar refinements and revised geometry but the outstanding addition to SV6 and Calais (others later) is ESP - Electronic Stability Programme & CBC - Corner Brake control.
These hi-tech features along with a new ABS system combine to provide outstanding handling and safety charecteristics unrivalled by its competitors and its hard to understand how any of the Journos so far have practically bypassed what i think is a major trump card for Holden - new engine aside.
The Alloytech ESP improves vehicle safety performance in situations that require emergency response for collision avoidance. It achieves this by correcting vehicle paths through individual wheel brake applications and engine torque management.
The resources that have gone into the safety of these cars is quite staggering - from class leading side air bags (I didnt even realise the side airbags in my XR6 dont actually protect against head injury) to the afore mentioned goodies. The point I am making is that the VZ is similar only in looks and if you find that hard to believe you should drive one, but not just in normal road conditions - get off the beaten track and really put it through its paces.

Overall
Holden have pulled out a trump card that is really going to be hard to beat. Other Manufacturers, while maybe bigger dont have the resources to allocate to our local market in terms of what these guys have done. While every one has been questioning and lending their opinion to the new engine Holden have quitely given an "under the skin" revamp to compliment their awesome new power plant. Also enjoyed a fun couple of days including racing against Murph!

[Ghia351]

.
The resources that have gone into the safety of these cars is quite staggering - from class leading side air bags (I didnt even realise the side airbags in my XR6 dont actually protect against head injury)

"Front Side (Head and Thorax) Airbags" - Taken from Ford Falcon specs website http://www.ford.com.au/falcon/htmlPageFrameSet.asp?destination=specs so either Ford or your Holden press info is wrong. What else would side airbags protect if its not your head?

[HSVMAN]

"Front Side (Head and Thorax) Airbags" - Taken from Ford Falcon specs website http://www.ford.com.au/falcon/htmlPageFrameSet.asp?destination=specs so either Ford or your Holden press info is wrong. What else would side airbags protect if its not your head?
Good question. Dont want to turn this into a thread about airbags but Not all airbags protect the head - in fact a lot only protect pelvis/body and some dont provide adequate brain injury prevention (according to Head of Safety for Holden). I was of the opinion the Falcon side airbag was adequate but apparently not so I intend to find out more. And it wasnt press info, the press get the watered down stuff :)

[Ghia351]

Good question. Dont want to turn this into a thread about airbags but Not all airbags protect the head - in fact a lot only protect pelvis/body and some dont provide adequate brain injury prevention (according to Head of Safety for Holden). I was of the opinion the Falcon side airbag was adequate but apparently not so I intend to find out more. And it wasnt press info, the press get the watered down stuff :)

Maybe you could PM me if you find out anything more as my next car has the option/standard fit (depending on model) of side air curtains.

[HSVMAN]

"Front Side (Head and Thorax) Airbags" - Taken from Ford Falcon specs website http://www.ford.com.au/falcon/htmlPageFrameSet.asp?destination=specs so either Ford or your Holden press info is wrong. What else would side airbags protect if its not your head?
Yes I should have checked before my last reply. Head protection available as standard only on Fairmont. Thanks for the tip :) VZ Side (head protection) Airbags standard on all but base model

[gsw]

Good question. Dont want to turn this into a thread about airbags but Not all airbags protect the head - in fact a lot only protect pelvis/body and some dont provide adequate brain injury prevention (according to Head of Safety for Holden). I was of the opinion the Falcon side airbag was adequate but apparently not so I intend to find out more. And it wasnt press info, the press get the watered down stuff :)


(according to Head of Safety for Holden).

OK I won't say anything.

[ExAreSix]

Firstly we were treated an indepth presentation of the development and features of the Alloytec V6 leaving no doubt in my mind that this unit is and will be for some time the most advanced engine to be developed in Australia.

That's all fine and dandy, except that it wasn't actually developed in Australia... :rolleyes:


I really don't understand what all the hype is about. The fact that the Ecotec was due to be retired a decade ago has got everyone all geed up for the alloytec. It's nothing new, just way overdue.

Remains to be seen if it lives up to all the hype... It's got big expectations to meet.

I hope you Holden boys don't get left dissapointed.

Ok, that last line's a bit of a fib... :booty:

[Ghia351]

Yes I should have checked before my last reply. Head protection available as standard only on Fairmont. Thanks for the tip :) VZ Side (head protection) Airbags standard on all but base model

I think MkII Futura is standard with side airbags..seems as if Ford knew what Holden was going to offer and matched it where they could and this feature will be even between brands/models. Is VZ SV6/SV8 standard with side airbags?

[M&Ms]

I think MkII Futura is standard with side airbags..seems as if Ford knew what Holden was going to offer and matched it where they could and this feature will be even between brands/models. Is VZ SV6/SV8 standard with side airbags?


side airbags are options on both SV8 and SV6...dunno how much though...

[JEM]

mmm, head of safety at holden.... would that be Mr LS (bowtie)???

one of my best mates worked with him.... there's alot to know about LS, needless to say my mate didn't want to be around them anymore and is now working for the blue boys... and loving it... its amazing how his opinion of H changed now that he know's how F go about things.

Holden's VZ upgrade is a major upgrade that was designed to bridge the gap to Ford... they just need a chassis now... then they'd be closer than ever before.

glad you enjoyed your drive days...

can't wait to get mine....

[vzsv6]

The fact that the Ecotec was due to be retired a decade ago

How do you work that out? The Ecotec was released in 1995, so how could it be retired when it wasn't even released a decade ago. :limpy:

[M&Ms]

How do you work that out? The Ecotec was released in 1995, so how could it be retired when it wasn't even released a decade ago. :limpy:



I think he meant that it was so bad that it was past it's use-by date before it had been released. :D LOL

[Drizt]

I think he meant that it was so bad that it was past it's use-by date before it had been released. :D LOL

normal dribble from you guys....

why do we have to listen to it constantly on a holden forum from you ford boys

[vzsv6]

I think he meant that it was so bad that it was past it's use-by date before it had been released. :D LOL

Yeah, and if it was so bad then how come it was judged in most reviews as being much smoother, quieter, better performing and more fuel efficient than the falcon six at the time. :lol:

I agree with Drizt, take your Holden bashing and mindless garbage somewhere else, it just spoils an otherwise excellent forum.

Sorry to hijack the thread, back to VZ discussion.

[M&Ms]

Yeah, and if it was so bad then how come it was judged in most reviews as being much smoother, quieter, better performing and more fuel efficient than the falcon six at the time. :lol:

I agree with Drizt, take your Holden bashing and mindless garbage somewhere else, it just spoils an otherwise excellent forum.

Sorry to hijack the thread, back to VZ discussion.


it never outperformed the falcon six ever... the most power the ecotec put out was 171 KW in supercharged form, whereas the SOHC I6 from the AU XR6 VCT put out 172 KW in NA form, compared to the 152 KW for the ecotec NA, which had less torque then a carbie XE 6-cyl falcon from 21 years ago. The only thing ecotec had going for it was fuel efficiency, but there were compromises for holden to get that... and lets not compare the DOHC I6 against the ecotec to save holden some embarrassment

that said and done, it's good to see holden bringing out this new Alloytech engine, which compared to the old clunk, is a giant piece of (lightweight) gold!!! good on them, we could use the competition in the local 6-cyl market. Just hope it does't show the same problems the LS1 showed when that was first released... anyone remember the 4000 rebuilds???

[vzsv6]

it never outperformed the falcon six ever...

Yes I know that it didn't outperform the falcon six ON PAPER but on the road it certainly did :bash:

[HSVMAN]

side airbags are options on both SV8 and SV6...dunno how much though...

OK, in NZ we only get side airbags as standard fitment :)

[HSVMAN]

For the Brain Dead who persist on posting anti Holden threads, the Alloytec was developed both in Australia and in the US in conjunction with Aussie engineers. In fact it was Aussie who stuck to 3.6 Litres as the engine doesnt have to be that capacity to be so good. The Alloytec we see (and other variants we dont) is now built in Oz.

[Danv8]

I knew this thread would go down in flames. :(

But apart from that great read HSVMAN.

[HSVMAN]

I knew this thread would go down in flames. :(

But apart from that great read HSVMAN.

Cheers! I tried to keep it brief and avoided slagging any other models I drove at Pukekohe in case we ended up in a slanging match here.
I think it may be worth while mentioning though that the outgoing Ecotec engine was not the same V6 engine Holden started with - contrary to what others say, abeit being a little long in the tooth it was and still is a very efficient and extremely reliable unit which is why Holden had such a hard task in finding a replacement.
Its just that in terms of future development and capability it had reached its max.
In terms of road handling I can confidently say the Commodore (with maybe exception of Executive which is under shod) out handled every other make we drove. Some were smoother, some felt perhaps more refined but none gave the outright driving pleasure and sure footed ability that the VZ does.
A couple of models were stunning in the change of drive and that was the Berlina Wagon and Calais.
The wagon because of its improved brakes and steering plus overall handling, and the V6 Calais because of the newly installed Handling technology.
We had to drive a V6 Calais at a given speed then swerve violently off the road between some cones straight onto the grass and plant boot to the floor and hold it there.
In other words give the Computer something to really think about. What happens is something you have to experience to appreciate. The car will use a combination of brake, eng torque and steering via the signals from its sensors to bring the car under control regardless of what the driver tries to do. We tried same on a variety of surfaces with same impressive results. The fact that you can now buy an Acclaim Sedan with these advanced features is just as impressive. There isnt a family sedan on the market anywhere near that price with so many features.
The SS and SV8 were also fun to drive with a noticable change in exhaust note and once again the improved brakes and handling.

[Phido]

Calais is a very interesting car.

5 speed auto, Bosch 8.0 stability programs, 190kw engine in a luxury package. Wheels even mentioned they think the Calais handles better than the SV6, with less understeer and better control. It looks like it will do a reasonable impression of a european luxury car. the FE1.5 is apparently as good as fe2 in handling but better ride.

Side airbags aren't that great but are better than nothing, curtain airbags make a noticible improvement on primative side airbags.

I find it funny that all this talk of the alloytec, its not light weight, it weighs 5Kg less than the old ecotec. Going alloy didn't save a great deal of weight, but Holden will nodoubt use it for marketing purposes.

A few changes I would make to the Calais to make it a better car:
-Larger ventilated front rotors (330 or 320mm), ventilated rears (~300mm)
-Optional 6 speed manual (both 6 and 8)
-a proper colour ICC like in the falcon
-more fan controls
-better stereo
-heated seats

[8throttlebodies]

... the most power the ecotec put out was 171 KW in supercharged form, ......

HSV did the XU6 with SC V6 @ 180 kw

[chops]

A few changes I would make to the Calais to make it a better car:.............
-heated seats

I still can't believe after having them in the Astra for this long, they aren't at least offered as an option in things like the Calais, Statesman and Caprice.

After riding in an Astra with them, they've got to be the best thing for getting quickly warm in very cold conditions (ie top down 5°C).

[vzsv6]

A few changes I would make to the Calais to make it a better car:

-a proper colour ICC like in the falcon


:eek: NO THANKS. The ICC in the Falcon is :limpy: nothing but a fancy gimmick with no real advantages, I'll take a separate climate control and removable double din stereo any day.
What happens if you want to customise your audio set up with an aftermarket head unit?
What happens 10 or 20 years down the track when CD's are phased out and replaced with a new format, and you're stuck with this integrated CD player?
Car companies need to put more thought into this and I hope Holden don't go down this path with the VE.

[Danv8]

[QUOTE=vzsv6]:eek: NO THANKS. The ICC in the Falcon is :limpy: nothing but a fancy gimmick with no real advantages, I'll take a separate climate control and removable double din stereo any day.

I have to agree there I don't like the location of the climate controls as well with the ICC. Also if something goes wrong with either the stereo or climate control with the ICC the whole lot has to come out to get replaced or fixed. At first I thought it was really neat but in reality it isnt really.

[Danv8]

[QUOTE=chops]I still can't believe after having them in the Astra for this long, they aren't at least offered as an option in things like the Calais, Statesman and Caprice.

Its probably something that does not get used very much here in Australia. Even if my VY 2 Calais has heated seat as standard they would probably never be used.

[M&Ms]

Side airbags aren't that great but are better than nothing, curtain airbags make a noticible improvement on primative side airbags.


I'm a bit confused.....so are side airbags in falcons and commmodores only designed to protect the shoulder and hips? How do they actually work... I know i've seen curtain airbags deployed on a Mini Cooper S which drifted into a pole and actually saw how they would save a driver's head and neck, but if aussie cars don't have this feature, then why don't they incorporate them into their cars. I think safety is an essential feature of all car's today, and manufacturers should greatly focus on this, just like BMW and Mercedes do overseas.
Also, can someone tell me what "throax" means in the context of airbags?? Thanks

[HSVMAN]

I'm a bit confused.....so are side airbags in falcons and commmodores only designed to protect the shoulder and hips? How do they actually work... I know i've seen curtain airbags deployed on a Mini Cooper S which drifted into a pole and actually saw how they would save a driver's head and neck, but if aussie cars don't have this feature, then why don't they incorporate them into their cars. I think safety is an essential feature of all car's today, and manufacturers should greatly focus on this, just like BMW and Mercedes do overseas.
Also, can someone tell me what "throax" means in the context of airbags?? Thanks

Commodore side airbags are particularly designed (not by Holden) for prevention of Brain injury and were chosen for this purpose under the recommendation of the chief of safety after his extensive experience and investigation into the types available. Holden were originally going for an "off the shelf" version from the states. This is a rather complex subject on its own with certain brands of airbags being responsible for more fatalities than actually saving lives. This is one reason Holden will never install airbags in the rear of their vehicles. Just to digress further..... Statistically there are more fatalities in Aust/NZ from side impacts than frontal, which is why there is more emphasis on side impact protection and injury prevention including the impact absorbing and crumple design of the centre pillar on Commodores

[chops]

Also, can someone tell me what "throax" means in the context of airbags?? Thanks

Thorax is the portion of your body above your abdomen and below your neck.

[seldo]

Thanks HSVMAN for some good articulate and informative posts :thumbsup:

[HSVMAN]

Thanks HSVMAN for some good articulate and informative posts :thumbsup:

Thanks. I owned and drove BMWs for a number of years - the last being a 540i 2 years ago and I can honestly say the VZ Commodore is the closest I have experienced to the same driving feel.
Different market and league yes but I stand by my words and feel i am qualified to make those comments :)

[SSbaby]

Time will tell how good the Alloytec is...at the moment it holds a lot of promise, more potential than any other engine that I know of as it's already capable of being adapted for direct injection technology and I read in Wheels it's even adaptable enough to run on diesel... just hope it doesn't sound like a diesel - like some LS1s! :lol:

[Danv8]

just hope it doesn't sound like a diesel - like some LS1s! :lol:[/QUOTE]

If my LS1 sounded like an GM 8V92TA at full ball I wouldn't complain.
;)

[HSVMAN]

Time will tell how good the Alloytec is...at the moment it holds a lot of promise, more potential than any other engine that I know of as it's already capable of being adapted for direct injection technology and I read in Wheels it's even adaptable enough to run on diesel... just hope it doesn't sound like a diesel - like some LS1s! :lol:

On the sound of the engine - it is quieter than the Ecotec and has a better exhaust note, more of a growl. From inside it still sounds like a V6 only doesnt have the top end harshness of its predessesor.
It is extremely adaptable. They have direct injection lined up down the track and as previously mentioned the 2.8 version has already been turbocharged.
In its current format it is hardly working at all. Bottom end is 6 bolt mains with milled steel crank. There are internal oil injectors onto the lower piston crowns for cooling and cylinder walls for lubrication. Timing chain is designed for life of engine, spark plugs 120000km. And of course lots more....

[SSbaby]

In its current format it is hardly working at all. Bottom end is 6 bolt mains with milled steel crank. There are internal oil injectors onto the lower piston crowns for cooling and cylinder walls for lubrication. Timing chain is designed for life of engine, spark plugs 120000km. And of course lots more....

The TT Alloytec has been tested in a drag car in the US... how does 1650 bhp grab ya? - the bottom end must be reasonably strong. ;)

[Phido]

When I say ICC like the Falcons, I mean something more superior than the commodores current one which is pretty dated, pretty featureless and GPS doesn't work well with.. You could do it so the ICC and stereo are still seperate. Tyre pressure monitor, volt meter, digital speedo could all be intergrated into it.

Falcon ICC has AV connections (tho not a standard plug and it can be a pain to setup) so you can hook in a DVD, MP3, blueray disc, HDCD, Xbox, PC and use it on the ICC screen.

While the arguement is no one in Australia would use heated seats, I disagree. Just because some people live in Brisbane or Darwin doesn't mean we all do. I know plenty of times I've had to scrape a icey frost off a car and freeze my arse off on leather seats. Canberra, Sydney, Melbourne, Tassy all get to temperatures for atleast part of a year where heated leather seats would be a nice feature. If you live in the moutains then obviously its going to get a work out right into spring and start at early autum.

I don't see why cars in fairly warm climates like the UK have them as a option even on extremely low cost models, but you can't option them here on a 70 or $100k car! With monaros being sold in the UK and the US, why shouldn't heated seats be developed for them? Tightarseness.

Information on Holdens and Fords side airbags is fairly difficult to come by. I have only ever seen them refered to as side airbags and not curtain airbags. It looks like both are designed to offer head protection of some sort, but definately seem to be lesser compared to full curtain bags teamed with thorax bags which offer more complete protection.

[Merlin]

Firstly we were treated an indepth presentation of the development and features of the Alloytec V6 leaving no doubt in my mind that this unit is and will be for some time the most advanced engine to be developed in Australia. Not only from a technological point of view but also in terms of current and future capabilities here and world wide.
I am also convinced that the future for 6 cylinder engines of a capacity greater than 3.5 litres is in V format.


Gees what an unbiased presentation that would have been - Are you the sort of guy that walks into a car dealership with SUCKER tatooed across your forehead? So Holden said it is good so it must be?????? :lol:

I'm sure it is a fine engine and will compete well, but what is the point of posting a thread about Holden (TM) propaganda instead of an unbiased review (ie. MOTOR, WHEELS review).

[Drizt]

Gees what an unbiased presentation that would have been - Are you the sort of guy that walks into a car dealership with SUCKER tatooed across your forehead? So Holden said it is good so it must be?????? :lol:

I'm sure it is a fine engine and will compete well, but what is the point of posting a thread about Holden (TM) propaganda instead of an unbiased review (ie. MOTOR, WHEELS review).

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: surprise surprise

[seldo]

Gees what an unbiased presentation that would have been - Are you the sort of guy that walks into a car dealership with SUCKER tatooed across your forehead? So Holden said it is good so it must be?????? :lol:

I'm sure it is a fine engine and will compete well, but what is the point of posting a thread about Holden (TM) propaganda instead of an unbiased review (ie. MOTOR, WHEELS review).
I'm not too sure whether the childish transparency of Merlin's post actually deserves dignifying with a response, but ....Nah....Probably can't read any way, otherwise he would have seen that the original poster HSVMAN began by stating that he actually owns an XR6 and was also able to do back to back with BAs on the day...
Sorry Merlin, but you're a tugger... time for your milk and get ready for beddies...and leave it alone ...you'll go blind

[Merlin]

I'm not too sure whether the childish transparency of Merlin's post actually deserves dignifying with a response, but ....Nah....Probably can't read any way, otherwise he would have seen that the original poster HSVMAN began by stating that he actually owns an XR6 and was also able to do back to back with BAs on the day...
Sorry Merlin, but you're a tugger... time for your milk and get ready for beddies...and leave it alone ...you'll go blind

so did you actually read the post? or just making judgements. I know HSVMAN owns an XR6 - i was poking fun at the fact he thinks the Alloytech is good because a Holden presentation told him so.

I can make up my own mind by looking at the stats and going for a testdrive thats its a good engine - thats the only point i was trying to make.

As for your immature drivel.....well......... :booty:

[seldo]

so did you actually read the post? or just making judgements. I know HSVMAN owns an XR6 - i was poking fun at the fact he thinks the Alloytech is good because a Holden presentation told him so.

I can make up my own mind by looking at the stats and going for a testdrive thats its a good engine - thats the only point i was trying to make.

As for your immature drivel.....well......... :booty:
Have you driven one...?? Noooo! Until you have, (and I haven't yet either BTW), how can you come out making stupid derogatory comments on their worth or otherwise. He has just come back from an extensive test drive program where he was able to drive all variants, on the same day, on the same roads, and compare back-to-back with the competition. At this stage I have yet to read any of the motor mags that have even done that, so why do you come out and make these childish inflammatory posts when I'd take a punt and say you haven't even seen one yet. Get off

[Merlin]

Have you driven one...?? Noooo! Until you have, (and I haven't yet either BTW), how can you come out making stupid derogatory comments on their worth or otherwise. He has just come back from an extensive test drive program where he was able to drive all variants, on the same day, on the same roads, and compare back-to-back with the competition. At this stage I have yet to read any of the motor mags that have even done that, so why do you come out and make these childish inflammatory posts when I'd take a punt and say you haven't even seen one yet. Get off

Point out the STUPID DEROGATORY COMMENT

I said, and I quote "Im sure its a fine engine" and "its a good engine"

Put your glasses back on mate and stop making a fool of yourself

[Ghia351]

I'm not too sure whether the childish transparency of Merlin's post actually deserves dignifying with a response, but ....Nah....Probably can't read any way, otherwise he would have seen that the original poster HSVMAN began by stating that he actually owns an XR6 and was also able to do back to back with BAs on the day...
Sorry Merlin, but you're a tugger... time for your milk and get ready for beddies...and leave it alone ...you'll go blind

(To boldly go in the deep end here), with the greatest respect to HSVMAN, who found out by a presentation given by a Holden safety expert that the BA side airbags don't protect heads, while Ford state they provide head and thorax protection, (I'd love the litigation possiblities here if you could tape such comments) and also states that side airbags are standard across the whole Commodore range when they are not. I respect his love and passion of the Holden product as I hope he does of my preference to Ford, but, please, when glaring errors are made or mis-information perpetrated by so called respected experts I can't let it go un-corrected, as I would do on a Ford forum regarding Holden based mis-information. I personally don't hate Holden products or blindly worship Ford products, I do hate the marketing crap that does come out from both and lately it's been Holden that has made more of these, eg kerb weights, first car with stability control etc...

now back on topic, my pick of the VZ range is definitely the Calais as it seems to really bring a great range of safety features into a big five seater without having to pay big Euro dollars..I would trash the wheels, too much "spoke" to keep clean.

[Bumfluff]

Point out the STUPID DEROGATORY COMMENT

I said, and I quote "Im sure its a fine engine" and "its a good engine"

Put your glasses back on mate and stop making a fool of yourself


Is this the time when '*DING!* *DING!* ROUND 1: ..FIGHT!!!' is due? :box: :lol:

[seldo]

(To boldly go in the deep end here), with the greatest respect to HSVMAN, who found out by a presentation given by a Holden safety expert that the BA side airbags don't protect heads, while Ford state they provide head and thorax protection, (I'd love the litigation possiblities here if you could tape such comments) and also states that side airbags are standard across the whole Commodore range when they are not. I respect his love and passion of the Holden product as I hope he does of my preference to Ford, but, please, when glaring errors are made or mis-information perpetrated by so called respected experts I can't let it go un-corrected, as I would do on a Ford forum regarding Holden based mis-information. I personally don't hate Holden products or blindly worship Ford products, I do hate the marketing crap that does come out from both and lately it's been Holden that has made more of these, eg kerb weights, first car with stability control etc...

now back on topic, my pick of the VZ range is definitely the Calais as it seems to really bring a great range of safety features into a big five seater without having to pay big Euro dollars..I would trash the wheels, too much "spoke" to keep clean.
Thanks Ghia351. I agree - mis-information on either side is annoying, however I think you'll agree that HSVMAN's original post was certainly one of the more rational and informative that I've seen on the forum for a while :). And when your one-eyed FF mate comes on and tries to trash the thread it raises the hackles a bit. As a matter of interest I would like to see the air-bag issue expanded a bit (no pun intended ;) ) to see what the facts really are. I'd also agree that from what I've read so far the Calais seems to be the pick of the bunch at this stage. It sounds like a good thing - time will tell.

[vzsv6]

Point out the STUPID DEROGATORY COMMENT

I said, and I quote "Im sure its a fine engine" and "its a good engine"

Put your glasses back on mate and stop making a fool of yourself

Everything else you said apart from "Im sure its a fine engine" was stupid and
derogatory. Maybe you're the one that shoul put your glasses on.

If you don't like what is being written, then simple, don't read it. If you have nothing useful to say then don't say it. Can't there be a decent and meaningful Holden discussion without some ford bogan constantly jumping in and rubbishing us, or turning the thread into a ford discussion. I'm sure if a Holden person did that on FF there would be an all out war. :mad:

[SSbaby]

I respect his love and passion of the Holden product as I hope he does of my preference to Ford, but, please, when glaring errors are made or mis-information perpetrated by so called respected experts I can't let it go un-corrected, as I would do on a Ford forum regarding Holden based mis-information. I personally don't hate Holden products or blindly worship Ford products, I do hate the marketing crap that does come out from both and lately it's been Holden that has made more of these, eg kerb weights, first car with stability control etc...

now back on topic...

Just a point on that subject... I recall a lot of people on the blue side saying things like the Commodore's torsional rigidity is questionable when compared to the then newly released BA (probably as a means to justify the extra mass added to the Falcon) when really most of the added mass was predominantly due to three factors:


the need to add reinforcement to the front of the vehicle which had to support heavier engines (those being the V8s)
the new but heavier DOHC V8 engines
the extra mass of the rear suspension


I recall some persons saying that the Commodore failed during head to head torture trials in the test loop the BA was subjected to.

You can tell I have a loooong memory. ;)

Oh, now back to the main topic!

[Merlin]

Everything else you said apart from "Im sure its a fine engine" was stupid and
derogatory. Maybe you're the one that shoul put your glasses on.

If you don't like what is being written, then simple, don't read it. If you have nothing useful to say then don't say it. Can't there be a decent and meaningful Holden discussion without some ford bogan constantly jumping in and rubbishing us, or turning the thread into a ford discussion. I'm sure if a Holden person did that on FF there would be an all out war. :mad:

Please tell me what I said that was stupid - use quotes please????? I said he went to a Holdon presentation and the information may be biased - how is that a "one-sided" "ford bogan" comment?

Why did you say you hated HSV in another thread????

Believe me I am as far away from a Ford bogan as you can get - I happen to own a BA XR6 but could I give a toss about Ford?? Hell no - i bought what was best at the time. When it comes time to upgrade theres plenty on the shopping list.

Some people may misconstrue my comments as biased but I merely dislike reading wrong information as Ghia said he does. I do the same thing on any other forum not just this one (yes including FF)

Nothing wrong with that.

[Ghia351]

Thanks Ghia351. I agree - mis-information on either side is annoying, however I think you'll agree that HSVMAN's original post was certainly one of the more rational and informative that I've seen on the forum for a while :). And when your one-eyed FF mate comes on and tries to trash the thread it raises the hackles a bit. As a matter of interest I would like to see the air-bag issue expanded a bit (no pun intended ;) ) to see what the facts really are. I'd also agree that from what I've read so far the Calais seems to be the pick of the bunch at this stage. It sounds like a good thing - time will tell.

We aim to please ......cheers..boy this sounds like a love fest..

back on topic..I do believe that side curtain airbags vs side passenger seat airbags are suited specifically (obviously) to the type of unfortunate collision suffered. I would assume, as a layman, rollover accidents would be best protected by curtains, and T-bone type accidents best served by side passenger airbags. Do you remember the story of the high speed rolled 7-Series BMW and the survival of the journo after triggering off a "million" airbags. The Territory comes standard with front passenger seat airbags and standard/optional with side curtain, because of its higher stance and the greater chance of rolling it when off-road I assume. I would also wonder, with all these airbags going off what the inside air pressure must jump by and whether any damage to ears, for example, could occur. In the end if you live to have an ear ache only, it doesn't matter.

[Ghia351]

Just a point on that subject... I recall a lot of people on the blue side saying things like the Commodore's torsional rigidity is questionable when compared to the then newly released BA (probably as a means to justify the extra mass added to the Falcon) when really most of the added mass was predominantly due to three factors:


the need to add reinforcement to the front of the vehicle which had to support heavier engines (those being the V8s)
the new but heavier DOHC V8 engines
the extra mass of the rear suspension


I recall some persons saying that the Commodore failed during head to head torture trials in the test loop the BA was subjected to.

You can tell I have a loooong memory. ;)

Oh, now back to the main topic!

You forgot to add redesigned rear end, (shown by sucken mid section of boot) to withstand 80km/hr rear ender. And how much weight did the front end gain, a certain Ford employee is asking me to ask you...

Are you refering to suspension componetry failure..

[seldo]

We aim to please ......cheers..boy this sounds like a love fest..

back on topic..I do believe that side curtain airbags vs side passenger seat airbags are suited specifically (obviously) to the type of unfortunate collision suffered. I would assume, as a layman, rollover accidents would be best protected by curtains, and T-bone type accidents best served by side passenger airbags. Do you remember the story of the high speed rolled 7-Series BMW and the survival of the journo after triggering off a "million" airbags. The Territory comes standard with front passenger seat airbags and standard/optional with side curtain, because of its higher stance and the greater chance of rolling it when off-road I assume. I would also wonder, with all these airbags going off what the inside air pressure must jump by and whether any damage to ears, for example, could occur. In the end if you live to have an ear ache only, it doesn't matter.
I always thought, rightly or wrongly, that side air-bags were basically designed to protect the thorax rather than the head, and therefore more beneficial in a T-bone type situation. The side curtain a/b I thought was more specifically aimed at cranial protection. Obviously, having both is the best bet. And yes, I have read that burst ear-drums are the norm after a serious air-bag deployment, but far preferable than the consequences of not having the a/b .

[HSVMAN]

First of all I wasnt suckered into some presentation hype. Although I am somewhat pro holden and drive one, I own a BA XR6 and a Diamante (the new diamantes we drove were very dissapointing).
Secondly I am also a qualified mechanic of some years experience and spent seven years with Automobile Association as Technical officer - both a few years back. I also was a national finalist in young driver competitions for several years.
So when I am shown in great detail the inner workings of an engine I can assemble enough information in my little head to form a reasonable opinion.
Of course one can also get a reasonable idea by putting a vehicle through rigorous tests and back to back comparisons.
Thank you for the um.... interesting input from the few that choose to continuously provide their sarcasm but I am sure Holden are flattered you pay their product so much attention :)

[HSVMAN]

Airbags..... I corrected myself early on about what was in what model if those that need to want to check. It seems there is a bit of interest on this one so I will do some indepth "expert" unbiased :p research and report back at a later date

[Ghia351]

Just a point on that subject... I recall a lot of people on the blue side saying things like the Commodore's torsional rigidity is questionable when compared to the then newly released BA

I would say it's not questionable but rather of a lower point of endurance. Say for example we could rig up a test bed as Boeing do to stress their aircraft wings, and it's amazing to watch btw, which body shell would endure higher levels of force for a given amount of body flex between the major 4 cars? This would settle any debate for sure..

[FalconIX]

Hmm I dont think Merlin was out of line in any way...unless immaturity is new age slang for disagreement.Those word's do sound very like marketing gospel, and HSVMAN's mechanical qualifications/ experience is all well and good, but many experienced journalists have also commented in the BA's favour. I have nothing against Holden and will evaluate them fairly.I wish them every sucess with the new motor ( because at least they are exporting i suppose). At the end of the day it's just horses for courses.

[Merlin]

First of all I wasnt suckered into some presentation hype. Although I am somewhat pro holden and drive one, I own a BA XR6 and a Diamante (the new diamantes we drove were very dissapointing).
Secondly I am also a qualified mechanic of some years experience and spent seven years with Automobile Association as Technical officer - both a few years back. I also was a national finalist in young driver competitions for several years.
So when I am shown in great detail the inner workings of an engine I can assemble enough information in my little head to form a reasonable opinion.
Of course one can also get a reasonable idea by putting a vehicle through rigorous tests and back to back comparisons.
Thank you for the um.... interesting input from the few that choose to continuously provide their sarcasm but I am sure Holden are flattered you pay their product so much attention :)

Good enough for me - I was merely suggesting Holden (also Ford, BMW ect ect) have a lot of pushy salesman who can feed you any sort of crap. Obviously your qualifications would mean that you wounldnt get suckered into such things but salesmen/presentation people can be very convincing - hope you can see where i was coming from.

[HSVMAN]

Good enough for me - I was merely suggesting Holden (also Ford, BMW ect ect) have a lot of pushy salesman who can feed you any sort of crap. Obviously your qualifications would mean that you wounldnt get suckered into such things but salesmen/presentation people can be very convincing - hope you can see where i was coming from.

Apology accepted ;)

[vzsv6]

Please tell me what I said that was stupid - use quotes please?????


Gees what an unbiased presentation that would have been
Holden (TM) propaganda

The way you are putting this across is, if it is from Holden it is automatically lies, bulls**t and propaganda, but if it's ford its 100% truthful and correct.


Are you the sort of guy that walks into a car dealership with SUCKER tatooed across your forehead?
That is a harsh and insulting comment to HSVMAN



Why did you say you hated HSV in another thread????
Huh? WTF! Please point out exactly where I said that. I think you must be
hallucinating, that couldn't be further from the truth. I LOVE HSV.

[Merlin]

The way you are putting this across is, if it is from Holden it is automatically lies, bulls**t and propaganda, but if it's ford its 100% truthful and correct.


That is a harsh and insulting comment to HSVMAN



Huh? WTF! Please point out exactly where I said that. I think you must be
hallucinating, that couldn't be further from the truth. I LOVE HSV.

1) Sorry you read it like that but i believe i did say ANY manufacturer including Ford, BMW ect - but I can see how it was misconstrued. Note I would also include real estate agents in this definition.

2) I have since apologised to HSVMAN - it was more a poking fun comment that wasnt supposed to be taken to heart (which incidently i dont think he did, but unfortuantlry others did).

3) I cant point out where you said it because you didnt - i was making a point that some people on here say "you said ........." when you didn't and they dont actually back it up with quotes or factual evidence.

4) Enough already - back on topic ;)

[Phido]

Chill out everybody.


I would say it's not questionable but rather of a lower point of endurance. Say for example we could rig up a test bed as Boeing do to stress their aircraft wings, and it's amazing to watch btw, which body shell would endure higher levels of force for a given amount of body flex between the major 4 cars? This would settle any debate for sure..

Arrrhh, but cars are not like aircraft, I doubt there is going to be much fatuige happening to a body shell as suspension is designed to take all that. Does anyone have any figures for the 4 locally produced cars tortional ridgity?

I don't think anyone really doubts that the Falcon is made heavy duty, from its layered firewall, to its huge wishbones, to massive rear blade, fat door frames etc.. However the problem for the Falcon is that all that massiveness hasn't translated into crash test stars. Nor have they conducted independant tests to show where it is far superior. Its fat, weights fat, looks fat.. Is fat.. You can see Ford have overengineered in some areas for safety.. Thats good in my opinion.. VE should close the gap somewhat.

The fords chunky suspension I would guess strengthen the case even more over the already tough AU. That rear blade stuff seems like its pretty tough. The fords upgrades may have been for other reasons (cheapness over previous IRS, speedyness, tuningness, quietness), but as a side effect it would have improved over all strength. Front I don't think had much weight added to it, but heavily redesigned to fit in the DOHC 5.4's, and to do that, other things were changed. The fact that the Falcon still runs a I6 doesn't seem to be as terrible in crashes as people generally think.. The V6 may be more compact but manufacturers don't seem to use that advantage much atleast for crashsafety.

Side airbags seem to primarly designed for thorax not so much head. But they can be tailored, say if you have curtain airbags, you don't really need them functioning much as head protectors.

Curtain seem more for head protection and also stop glass entereing at high velocity into your face and the occupants reciving wounds like a shotgun to the head/torso.

Its unlikely your going to activate all the airbags at the same time at maxium force (if you do, your most likely screwed anyway). Im sure it does increase cabin pressure very quickly, burst eardrums are certainly possible. But that is not a hugely serious injury. Some people get it in airplanes etc. I would take burst drums over massive facial mutalation.

Overall Australian made cars are pretty good safety wise these days. Could be better, but they definately engineer not just for crash points (like renault etc) but for outright strength. There is some technology, but its not cutting edge stuff. But they are built dam tough with loads of metal and plastic.

Hopefully with stability programs becomming standard, we will see less side impacts (side impact with on comming or following traffic, side impact with object etc), and those that do happen, are less severe, and those can be reasonably handled by the side airbags.

IMO I would place stability controls above side airbags, because side airbags are a last resort, and definately only improve the odds slightly rather than making it a great deal safer. Most of the side crashes I see on TV seem to be related to losing control of a vechical and hitting something. Car verse telegraph pole usually results in car almost/is being chopped inhalf (even new or fancy european car). Stability programs would have to lower this happening or if it does happen, atleast some control is regained and its more frontal.

Ford should get off butts and put the stability programs in for MkII. If they don't I think they have made a silly economising decision.

[lowriding]

When I say ICC like the Falcons, I mean something more superior than the commodores current one which is pretty dated, pretty featureless and GPS doesn't work well with.. You could do it so the ICC and stereo are still seperate. Tyre pressure monitor, volt meter, digital speedo could all be intergrated into it.

Falcon ICC has AV connections (tho not a standard plug and it can be a pain to setup) so you can hook in a DVD, MP3, blueray disc, HDCD, Xbox, PC and use it on the ICC screen.

.

I totally agree with ya Phido! The Calais would benefit from a stereo upgrade -including "proper" screen and features.Ford have always put more effort in this area than Holden IMO. Going way back the folks had a Fairmont Ghia which had (for the time) a top stereo , which crapped all over the feeble Eurovox shite in the Holdens at that stage. The wife's Vectra is marketed from Holden as a high spec "prestige" - I prefer my-bottom-of-the-range-company XT Falcon cd player , personally . the Vectra has the same familiar groan-and grinding 6 stack Blaupunkt that Holden just do so well :limpy: One of the few letdowns in an otherwise great car - Question for Holden , why is not possible to spend more than $5 bucks on a component that most people use everytime the car is driven ??? :rolleyes: Another bone of contention -neither the Holden or Ford players play MP3 - even various Hyundais have this capability .

[Phido]

I think all the Ghia needs sound wise is a additional subwoofer to fill out the bass and MP3 support, it would be pretty much perfect. Some kind of trippy visualisation through the ICC would be cool tho.

Holden needs pretty much a complete overhaul, Holden just have crappy audio. Ford uses pioneer gear since way back, and you get the impression that someone who actually likes listening to music built the dam thing.. Holden is built by a accountant. It sounds like a clock radio, cds skip, the sound is crap.

[Drizt]

I think all the Ghia needs sound wise is a additional subwoofer to fill out the bass and MP3 support, it would be pretty much perfect. Some kind of trippy visualisation through the ICC would be cool tho.

Holden needs pretty much a complete overhaul, Holden just have crappy audio. Ford uses pioneer gear since way back, and you get the impression that someone who actually likes listening to music built the dam thing.. Holden is built by a accountant. It sounds like a clock radio, cds skip, the sound is crap.

why do they allow stuff that is completely off topic in the thread ??

this got anything to do with the VZ or alloytec ?

[HSVMAN]

why do they allow stuff that is completely off topic in the thread ?? this got anything to do with the VZ or alloytec ?

little boys lost in the big boys forum :lol:

[M&Ms]

yeh the premium sound system (standard in the farimont ghia and optional on the XR's and GT's) does sound the goods, and the colour screen looks the goods too especially if u option up the sat. navigation which you also view through the icc screen...it all looks so complete....but i do agree thats its a bummer u cant change the stereo to an aftermarket product....but maybe if u give it time there may be some audio company out there who can devise an aftermarket product for ford

[seldo]

Sorry fellas....must have stumbled into FF by mistake...I thought it was a VZ thread....my apologies. :burnout: :driving:

[HSVMAN]

Sorry fellas....must have stumbled into FF by mistake...I thought it was a VZ thread....my apologies. :burnout: :driving:

I know.... why doesnt someone start up a forum for Ford people?

Oh they have? Geeze youre kidding me right?

Why do they want to talk about their product on a holden Forum then?

Maybe theres no one on the Ford one to talk to.......