ANCAP Crash test vs Holden Crash test - did you know...

[HSVMAN]

Discovered the ANCAP safety tests are based on the ability to prevent injury to an Adolescent male (being the most common risk occupant according to accident statistics).
Therefore the crash test dummies used are that of an average sized adolescent male and all the crash results are recorded as to the injury potential of that "person".
Holden on the other hand use a "family" of crash test dummies including: Large adult male, average adult male, and various sizes and ages of male female (they even name them all). This gives them an overall understanding of and the ability to provide accurate test results of various occupant injury and/or the prevention of same.
So if a car receives 5 star ACAP rating it means it has excellent injury protection for an average sized adolescent male. But the others????? :eek:
Seems ANCAP need to look at providing a more comprehensive testing system...

[Veeate]

Interesting.

Always concerned about these so called 'crash tests'. They seemed to always focus on what happens once you are in the crash i.e air bags , head restraints etc etc

I however am concerned about whats on the car that prevents me from getting into a crash in the first place i.e brake systems including ABS , suspension , tyres etc.

I still can't believe we are selling cars these days without ABS. I know you still need to understand how to 'apply' ABS in an emergency brake situation but gee - how hard can it be ?

Do crash test ratings consider things like the above ? I guess of course they can never consider the most important item - the person behind the wheel !!

[HSVMAN]

Apparently less than 50% of drivers apply the brakes hard enough in an emergency to actually activate the ABS. This is why systems such as Brake assist are now becoming more common. It will apply full pressure in an emergency stop.
And there is only so much Manufacturers can do in collision protection which is why we are seeing more technology in our cars that go a long way to help avoiding the impact rather than only attempt to cater for the aftermath.
VZ Acclaim and V6 Calais are the first in the Commodore range to have this technology on board (ESP, EBD, BA etc)
Also their is a lot more to Airbag technology than meets the eye, as I mentioned in another thread, some airbags are responsible for more injuries/fatalities than saving lives. Thankfully Holden have a Safety division dedicated to investigating and proving the best in protection and prevention technology :)

[RICHO]

My biggest issue with ANCAP is that we have cars hitting the market with their manufacturers trumpeting "xxxx" star safety rating according to ANCAP.

And a small car can get the same rating as a big largely based on whether it has the same safety features. I want any car I own to be safe but I will always place the basic laws of physics over ANCAP's ratings.

The principles of Kinetic Energy tell me that if a Comodore hits a Honda Jazz (I think they have the same ANCAP rating) the Jazz driver is far less safe than the driver of the Commodore. Yet they have the same safety rating?!?!?!?

And people believe it!! I have had countless conversations with people who ask me why I have a big car when their little car is just as safe.

For comparison between cars of approx. equal size and weight, okay...well...provide your an average sized male that is.

Otherwise ANCAP are about as useful as tits on a bull

[IIV8II]

yep - some people close to the industry realised this quite a while ago... Ancap result isn't a particularly good guide to safety - especially when they only crash one or two cars... in any other field (such as medical tests) they would be laughed at... Can you imagine contraceptive pill being tested on just one subject

Holden and Ford do a big amount of crash tests using plenty of adult and child dummies. I think it is '98th percentile' (dummies that in total, represent size/shape98 percent of population/potential drivers and passengers)

EDIT: In summary, NCAP is a load of crap, really

[HSVMAN]

My biggest issue with ANCAP is that we have cars hitting the market with their manufacturers trumpeting "xxxx" star safety rating according to ANCAP.
For comparison between cars of approx. equal size and weight, okay...well...provide your an average sized male that is.
Otherwise ANCAP are about as useful as tits on a bull

Exactly! Crash a Honda Jazz into a crash barrier at 50 km/h vs a large car approaching you at same speed! And see who comes off best? Not always what you think.....
Someone I know crashed an Astra head-on into an Explorer recently and walked away unhurt whilst the driver of the Explorer was cut out and taken to Hospital with serious leg injuries. The Astra drivers door could still be opened!! The front was mashed (written off) but did everything it was meant to to protect its occupants.

[Phido]

Many manufacturers aren't happy with the crash testing system in many countries. Ford and Holden in particular feel the extra mile they do for safety often doesn't reflect in the simple star system. Its quite easy to engineer to the star systems, renault recently has been trying to get 5 star on most of its lineup. These days pedestrian safety is also a huge factor, proberly overstated as well.

Commodores and Falcons are extremely safe cars. They are well equiped (even in pov spec) with dual airbags, latest in ABS, EBD, extremely good structures with a great deal of thought on safety.

I would rate the BA falcon as one of the best cars to crash structurally. AU was pretty tough but looking over a BA you can see the extra effort they put in. Its one of the reasons why its so heavy. Commodore is also very good, but being a older platform, and not a exceptionally awesome one at that, I would rate it as 2nd. VE will most likely change that.

I am disapointed that Ford did not follow its own lead with the territory and in MkII place ESP systems into it. I see ESP as the new airbag. While in a impact a ESP car won't fair any better, ESP would aid the driver in keeping the car under control, and avoiding it or controlling where the car hits in the first place (ie less spinning out of control and side impacts). It still doesn't have 4 channel ABS standard across the range.

How ever big thumbs up to Ford and Holden for engineering cars not just for crash tests, but for populations in general. They have been reasonably quick in getting essential safety equipment into cars where ever possible.

They allow entry level Merc/BMW levels of safety to the entire population. Many countries don't get that kind of protection, as they are mostly hatchback/small cars, or as in the US big stupid ladder chassis trucks. They have also been key in keeping families in cars and not into questionable SUV's. While the Territory and Adventra will change that at bit, both are of a more acceptable SUV type. Lower, non ladder style, excellent on road manners, good weight distribution, car like safety.

Toyota has been going backwards. Look at the Avalon, pre safety cell, old old platform. Echo, removing airbags. etc.

We also have a high national fleet turnover. So most of us would be driving cars less than 15 years old, which is a good thing. Compared to NZ which is more like 25 years old.

In a few years all new cars should have ABS standard, EBD standard, and some form of stability control, atleast 2 airbags with side and curtain optional on all and standard on many. A few years after that we should start seeing a decline in accidents and fatalities (adjusted). Your car won't vere off the road or fishtail out of control in the wet anymore, or spin under emergency swerving, stopping distances will be much shorter, ABS will allow drivers to keep control (hopefully by then people will know how to use it).

[Ryzz]

In a few years all new cars should have ABS standard, EBD standard, and some form of stability control, atleast 2 airbags with side and curtain optional on all and standard on many. A few years after that we should start seeing a decline in accidents and fatalities (adjusted). Your car won't vere off the road or fishtail out of control in the wet anymore, or spin under emergency swerving, stopping distances will be much shorter, ABS will allow drivers to keep control (hopefully by then people will know how to use it).

But dont you worry the goverment will still find a reason to have speed camera, to keep these even safer cars at an even lower speed, all in the name of revenue collection not doubt :rolleyes:

Sorry thats my rant, id love to see more saftey coming into car's, but at the same point in time there has to be a limit to it, and a training also has to be provided. This 4 Channel ABS/Stability Control could cause more problem that its trying to solve it people are trying to fight it in an accident.

[IIV8II]

Jusding by that comment, you haven't driven a car with any of this gear in it...

[LSX-438]

I've often thought about buying a smallish car for the wife but baulked because there are no rear impact crash tests that i could find. The thought of my kids heads being a few cm from the end of the car gives me the yips, however my thoughts could be totally unfounded, i have nfi.. are there any rear impact crash tests done anywhere?

[HSVMAN]

are there any rear impact crash tests done anywhere?
Holden test for rear impact - some models have Active head restraints fitted to assist in whiplash protection but that is front seats only. If you really are that concerned about amount of protection in rear, buy a car with more space between seats and back bumper ;)
Statistically in Australia there are more fatalities from side impact than any other form of accident :(

[Phido]

This 4 Channel ABS/Stability Control could cause more problem that its trying to solve it people are trying to fight it in an accident.

Manufacturers are getting better. Early ABS systems, were pretty primative and there wasn't a great deal known about it.

With Stability control, it should be pretty seemless, the car like magic, is unspinable, heavy braking through a corner it should keep composure etc. There shouldn't be much if any peddle throbbing engine spluttering etc. Its so good that even professional drivers can have a hard time picking if a system is just relaxed or turned off completely (most stability systems off is just relaxed and you have to go through a number of proceedures to turn it off completely, ie for the track, even then you don't need it off but want to practice control). Which is a good thing you will only ever notice it when you really do need it.

[LSX-438]

Holden test for rear impact - some models have Active head restraints fitted to assist in whiplash protection but that is front seats only. If you really are that concerned about amount of protection in rear, buy a car with more space between seats and back bumper ;)
Statistically in Australia there are more fatalities from side impact than any other form of accident :(

HSVMAN do you know if the rear impact results are available?

[HSVMAN]

HSVMAN do you know if the rear impact results are available?
Good question, will investigate

[Ghia351]

Therefore the crash test dummies used are that of an average sized adolescent male and all the crash results are recorded as to the injury potential of that "person".
Holden on the other hand use a "family" of crash test dummies including: Large adult male, average adult male, and various sizes and ages of male female (they even name them all). This gives them an overall understanding of and the ability to provide accurate test results of various occupant injury and/or the prevention of same.
So if a car receives 5 star ACAP rating it means it has excellent injury protection for an average sized adolescent male. But the others????? :eek:
Seems ANCAP need to look at providing a more comprehensive testing system...

I guess cost of testing is why ANCAP use an "average" sized crash test dummy as I would imagine Holden would have to crash a new car for every "member" of the "family". I think ANCAP need to explain their test procedures and parameters better because all the public gets is a blaze of publicity praising the high scoring cars and suddenly it all disappears unless the manufacturers decide to use the reults in marketing.

Thanks for the info.

Forrestd,
You're right about lack of rear end collision data, I only know of the sedan BA's 80km pass because of a chance reading of some info once.

[Venom XR]

Ford use super-computers in the US that allow them to simulate crashes, the result take about a day to produce - the same thing your home PC wuld take a whole year to calculate. Wonder if Holden has a similar arrangment with GM? But HSVMan is right, ANCAP tests only tell a part of the story.

No one takes crashes more seriously than Volvo - they recorded every crash in Sweden involving a Volvo. Serious crashes are often re-simulated using this gargantuan testing facility they have, saw a doco on and it was amazing.

[HSVMAN]

No one takes crashes more seriously than Volvo - they recorded every crash in Sweden involving a Volvo. Serious crashes are often re-simulated using this gargantuan testing facility they have, saw a doco on and it was amazing.
Holden are now (not sure when they started) analysing fatal crashes involving their brand in Australia. They certainly wouldnt have the technology of Volvo but are certainly focused in that direction. They are already designing and incorporating safety technology in models beyond VE

[Phido]

Holden is looking at crashes seeing where there are weakness or if things work properly. I recall they were out looking for a crash where the side airbags went off to see how they functioned in a real accident.

But Australias small population and market can make that somewhat difficult, models like Statesman and Caprice (or Fairlane/LTD) are so few, and usually driven quite well that it may be quite a while before real world data starts comming through. It would make it hard to incorperate that data quickly.

[muzza]

ANCAP is meant to be just a guide - but typical of our media's chase of the sensational 30 second bite, all the qualifying information gets lost and people assume one 5 star is as good as another - on completely different sized cars.

How about an aggregate "Overall Safety Assessment" for a car comprising passive safety factors as tested by ANCAP plus active safety features like braking ability in straight line and turning a standard corner with ABS fully activated, a swerve and recover manoevre (standardised - rate max speed achieved staying within lines) to give some idea of stability if done on both rough and smooth surfaces, driver's view rating (% blind spots obscured by pillars/high boot etc) and a weighting factor given to the mass of the vehicle - ie: in general small cars are less safe than heavier large cars when the two come together.

A rear crash test would also be a good idea.

OK this would cost more - but given the amount of fuel excise/GST from fuel (and all the other road taxes) which disappears into general revenue (and only 6% of that actually gets spent on the roads themselves) I reckon the pricks could spend another 1% on proper safety assessment of new cars.

Anyone got other ideas for more comprehensive tests?

[HSVMAN]

I recall they were out looking for a crash where the side airbags went off to see how they functioned in a real accident.

But .......models like Statesman and Caprice (or Fairlane/LTD) are so few, .... It would make it hard to incorperate that data quickly.

They have analysed Acclaim Sedan/Wagon, S, SV8, SS, Berlina Sedan/wagon, Calais, Monaro ,utes and HSV product - all fitted with Side airbags and substained side impact crashes :)

[VI11AN]

Just regarding earlier comments on ABS.. I went to a driver training day at Oran Park and the first exercise we did was braking.. Now I consider myself a pretty competent driver.. My best efforts trying to bring my VL to a stop were nowhere near some of the worst drivers on the day in there ABS equipped cars...

Cant wait till the day all cars have it, the less likely people are to run into me, the better ;)

[Ghia351]

Just regarding earlier comments on ABS.. I went to a driver training day at Oran Park and the first exercise we did was braking.. Now I consider myself a pretty competent driver.. My best efforts trying to bring my VL to a stop were nowhere near some of the worst drivers on the day in there ABS equipped cars...

Cant wait till the day all cars have it, the less likely people are to run into me, the better ;)

Did they let the same ABS equipped cars be driven by their drivers with the system de-activated to demonstrate the difference in braking ability/control?

[VI11AN]

I wish they could have, considering the range of cars that were present.. I dont know how much of a comparison can be made between my old VL, and the WRX Sti with 6 pots and ABS :)

[VX11SS]

"We also have a high national fleet turnover. So most of us would be driving cars less than 15 years old, which is a good thing. Compared to NZ which is more like 25 years old. "

Hi Phido
No flames intended but I think that you are taking the piss re the average car age being 25 yrs in NZ meaning, this would mean most cars would be arond 1979 vintage with some older/ some newer. if I go for a drive right now (round Auckland) the chances of seeing a year old car are slim now and I would hazard a guess that the average age would be 10-12 yrs old and getting younger as around 120000 grey imports a year are coming in which now have to have been built after 1994. No flames intended but last time I was in Oz (Melbourne a couple of years ago) I was shocked at how old the vehicle fleet seemed to be.
:eek: Jay

[HSVMAN]

I would hazard a guess and say theres a hell of a lot of older cars in Oz :D - lot of old holdens etc (and a handfull of fords that didnt rust :lol: ) so the average per capita I'm betting is that the cars in Australia are older.

In NZ (being slightly damper) its a natural culling system - omg I just saw an Avenger drive past! - that nearly all the old valiants and falcons have reduced to dust (except for my old man's '73 V8 XA Falcon thats had a rebuild and is always garaged) because of our um... rain forest climate :p Therefore the need to bring in a whole lot of jap shitters and euro "wind backs", but overall it has resulted in the average age of NZ cars being about 7-8 years old I think :)

[Veeate]

Did they let the same ABS equipped cars be driven by their drivers with the system de-activated to demonstrate the difference in braking ability/control?

At one of Ian Luf'f's drive days or something years ago we removed the fuse for ABS and got back in the car and tried out braking again. Makes a huge difference. For me anyway you had to think a lot more about your threshold braking then with ABS. Was an interesting insight into how ABS works for you.

For most of us , with ABS , our stopping distances were within +-5%. Without ABS there were some red faced people as we all struggled to consistently pull the car up.

In an emergency i want ABS.

p.s that Ian Luff is a mad bastard.......but a great teacher

[HSVMAN]

What people need to realise too, is that its not the stopping distance that ABS is all about, but being able to control your car whilst maintaining optimum braking. Once your wheels lock you cannot steer

[IIV8II]

Holden are now (not sure when they started) analysing fatal crashes involving their brand in Australia. They certainly wouldnt have the technology of Volvo but are certainly focused in that direction. They are already designing and incorporating safety technology in models beyond VE
they been doing that for more than a decade...

[Phido]

No flames intended but I think that you are taking the piss re the average car age being 25 yrs in NZ meaning, this would mean most cars would be arond 1979 vintage with some older/ some newer. if I go for a drive right now (round Auckland) the chances of seeing a year old car are slim now and I would hazard a guess that the average age would be 10-12 yrs old and getting younger as around 120000 grey imports a year are coming in which now have to have been built after 1994. No flames intended but last time I was in Oz (Melbourne a couple of years ago) I was shocked at how old the vehicle fleet seemed to be.
:eek: Jay

Looks can be deciving.

Story here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/motoringstorydisplay.cfm?storyID=3580694&thesection=motoring&thesubsection=motoring&thesecondsubsection=)
Story here (http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/en/gr-74720e.html)

While there are quite a few new cars in Auckland, you will also find stacks of older imported vechicals around other areas of N.Z. This heavily shifts the average. While Ford, Holden and toyota add 100,000's of new cars each, each year to the australian national fleet they make pretty slim sales in NZ. No doubt due to imports. National new sales in Australia are what 800,000 (maybe even more this year) a year? I doubt if NZ would be even 80,000. Checking it up, 2001 was less than 75k a year, thats less than a 1/10th of aussie new car sales. NZ also has a strong older import market, which means more older cars are added. Aussie doesn't have a inlet like that.

While in Australia, older cars seem to be everywhere, its apparently not so, I guess these eye sores are just more visible.

[HSVMAN]

NZ also has a strong older import market, which means more older cars are added. Aussie doesn't have a inlet like that.
While in Australia, older cars seem to be everywhere, its apparently not so, I guess these eye sores are just more visible.

Your research is bang on! 75% import sales = average import 7-8 years old. When imports first poured into NZ they reduced the average age of vehicles somewhat, getting rid of a lot of the old Junk (a lot of the imports were also junk). Therefore besides opening up the market to an uncontrolled frenzy of dodgy vehicles, what importing has done is reduce the average age of vehicles. NZ LTSA will confirm that. Whether thats what we want is another thing however......
Perhaps the most positve impact is to nudge Australian Manufacturers into updating technology. Simple things like Air cond, and elect windows were only considered options on the average family car previously