is LSD safer than single spinners?

[Drizt]

Just curious as to what is safer..... My car has a single spinner and seems to loose traction to easy in the wet... but i dont know whats safer...

My train of thought was?

LSD pro's:
You have 2 wheels to grip with instead of just one
LSD con's:
When you do lose traction you lose control of both rear wheels and the car can skip sideways

Single Spinner pro's:
When you lose traction its only with one wheel, so you dont get thrown completely of course.
Single Spinner con's:
Its much easier to lose traction in the first place


What do the expects say ?

[Smitty]

for the normal driver, the single spinner is better
yes....
in the wet, its easier to lose traction (1 wheel grip)
but most normal drivers back off in the wet, so they are less likely to lose traction in the 1st place
if they have LSD and they do lose it, they are likely to wrap the car around the nearest pole....

my 2c

[Peter B - CV8]

The single spinner always used to be the more predicable in the wet - but with the advent of traction control, there is probably not much difference between the two.
LSD in the wet - with no T/C + V8 = an alert driver having fun.

[Beej]

Well I'm no expert - but that's doesn't stop me from putting forward an opinion :D

Single spinner is considered *safer* in untrained hands for exactly the reason you outline - the tail doesn't snap out and spear the car into a telegraph pole upon loss of traction due to right foot pressure.

LSD is needed in more powerful cars if you want to be able to use the power to go faster - due to the fact you can get more traction, but is less safe and requires greater driver skill and control.

Cheers,

Beej

[Drizt]

Thanks guys, so i was right. I feared that i was totaly on the wrong train of thought..

Thanks

[CarlFST60L]

I had a single spinner in my VS, went to pull out across three lanes of trafic, there was a big gap, i took of nice n slow, the car just spun and moved me into the intersection, nicly inthe middle, i backed right off, but couldnt get the car to go foward, i couldnt get past around 3Km/h... I figure there was oils on the road which 'mixed' with the rain...

[Drizt]

I had a single spinner in my VS, went to pull out across three lanes of trafic, there was a big gap, i took of nice n slow, the car just spun and moved me into the intersection, nicly inthe middle, i backed right off, but couldnt get the car to go foward, i couldnt get past around 3Km/h... I figure there was oils on the road which 'mixed' with the rain...

I had a similar thing happen to me at the end of the ring road heading towards eltham....

i would have thought a single spinner would have been safer than that....

[gmeup]

was driving my VY Executive with the stock police chasers in the wet a few weeks ago, was doing 60kms and hour and was pissing down rain. turned the wheel alittle to the right and the wheels lost traction LSD kicked in spun the ass end out and the car did a 180 degree spin hit the media strip took out a metal street sign pole. equals $8000 grand damage $2000 grand insurance excess and a month with no car!! So be carful with LSD I have been driving V8's for 9yrs but even with experience they are sometimes unpredictable!!!!!

[seldo]

was driving my VY Executive with the stock police chasers in the wet a few weeks ago, was doing 60kms and hour and was pissing down rain. turned the wheel alittle to the right and the wheels lost traction LSD kicked in spun the ass end out and the car did a 180 degree spin hit the media strip took out a metal street sign pole. equals $8000 grand damage $2000 grand insurance excess and a month with no car!! So be carful with LSD I have been driving V8's for 9yrs but even with experience they are sometimes unpredictable!!!!!
Now be honest...you forgot to say that you were giving it a bit at the time....
It's ok, no-one from the insurance co is listening...

[wally01]

Go and find a nice road somewhere ,if you have an LSD and learn how to drive with it ..
As for traction control and an LSD i beg to differ they are not the same far from it ,unless you own something more expensive ,that has traction control where you can bury the foot hang a hard right and it just takes off no engine miss or more so retardation like Holdens Version ,i have driven cars before with traction control that work far better than retarding the ignion and such .
Me i would prefer LSD but thats my opinion ,traction control maybe better with the LS1 more power i only have a 6 and i hate it ..
Sure with an LSD you can hit the juice in the wet at an intersection and you will move you may need to have a lot of opposite lock but you will move ,and not die as with traction control ..
Others may differ but that my 2 cents worth

[HardcoreLS1]

Single spinner safer????
Try controlling a single spinner diff in a slide and then try it in an LSD. LSD is much more controllable you can steer the car on the throttle :D , single spinner totally unpredictable.

[wrexed03]

I would prefer the lsd for better grip where possible. Traction control is a nightmare i hate it. I generally turn it off most times even in the wet. Why its caught me out on two different occasions engaging whilst turning into an intersection. I almost got cleaned up on two occasions by oncomming vehicles. Even if you have it turned off and you get wheel spin the vehicle still moves. With trac on the damn thing bogs right down and the vehicle just about stops. So obviously you have to back off for almost a full second and by then the traffic has just about ploughed into you. Scary stuff. Sorry slightly off the topic but i thought i would post this.

[Smitty]

Single spinner safer????
Try controlling a single spinner diff in a slide and then try it in an LSD. LSD is much more controllable you can steer the car on the throttle :D , single spinner totally unpredictable.

for us guys maybe.... we who can steer the car and know how to steer out of the slide....
but
Joe average driver, if he gets a slide with an LSD
the 1st thing he will do, is take his foot off...
and the car will spin , if he (with an LSD) he lost traction in both rear wheels !
try it sometime...in a carpark or somewhere outta the road when wet....
this is one thing that is taught at the 2nd or 3rdlevel Advanced driving courses
Murcotts get you enter the corner at the end of the main Sandown straight (which has been wet down) at about 60 and back off...
and you watch 'em spin 180's 270's :lol:
the trick is not to backoff or accelerate, just hold constant throttle, works with both LSd and single spinner btw...
so
for 'Joe normal' I would go the single spinner

cheers

[HardcoreLS1]

Murcotts get you enter the corner at the end of the main Sandown straight (which has been wet down) at about 60 and back off...

I'm assuming your talking about manual as auto gives little to no engine breaking henceforth no spin.

[chevypower]

I find it easier to control tail sliding with LSD, i can control exactly how much i want to slide, and it is very predictable. With single spinner, it's easy to spin the inside wheel, and doesnt necessarily cause tail sliding, but when the tail does slide, i find its less predictable, and more uncontrollable. So i recommend LSD to just about anybody. (the diff that is)

[VQ304]

Single spinners can be pretty dangeous sometimes. I've also been stuck in the path of oncoming traffic because my single spinner was just sitting there ripping it up and couldn't get traction. Not very fun seeing a truck bearing down on you but you can't go anywhere.

You never know what it's going to do when it loses traction either. Sometimes I give it a bootful around a corner and expect the back to come around but it just spins the inside wheel and tries to understeer into the gutter :bash:

However I still think an open diff is the safest option for the average driver, most people can't deal with oversteer.

[CarlFST60L]

Get to a skid pan day with your car, you can try everything, learn the limits in saftey, ever since i have been i have allot more confidence in the car, the LSD is SSOOOOO much fun! :D

[Smitty]

I'm assuming your talking about manual as auto gives little to no engine breaking henceforth no spin.

it is more evident with the manual cars, but still happens to a degree with the autos. To see a guy in an auto SS ute end up 90° from where he was heading was surely demonstrating the point..

[IIV8II]

Single spinner safer????
Try controlling a single spinner diff in a slide and then try it in an LSD. LSD is much more controllable you can steer the car on the throttle :D , single spinner totally unpredictable.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

[C4B]

Single spinner safer????
Try controlling a single spinner diff in a slide and then try it in an LSD. LSD is much more controllable you can steer the car on the throttle :D , single spinner totally unpredictable.

I agree totally. My 5litre stato has a single spinner and it is 10 times harder to control in a slide than the Hydratrak in the GTS.

I'm sure a single spinner is safer in that you are less likely to get into a power slide, but once you get into one, give me the LSD anyday.

[escii]

in the wet lsd's are more dangerous if you dont know what your doing, with a 2 way LSD if you take off your foot the accellerator too fast in the wet see you later hello $8000 worth of damage.

[Phido]

LSD is a endangered species its being quickly dropped from the lineup of many manufacturers and will disapear..

Single spinner has been greatly favoured by manufacturers for the majority of drivers. I would say a single spinner is less likely to bite a inexperience casual everyday driver than a LSD.

LSD's can complicate things a little and some drivers freak out or don't understand how they work and what are the results of doing things like backing off mid slide in a lsd car in the wet..

However recently LSD used to exclude traction control, and certainly ESP. ESP is basically idiot proof, you either have to point the car in the wrong direction (turn right into a left hand turn etc) or basically just go in way too hot (which these days really means flogging it or hitting ice or something) or fail to brake (although some cars have some sort of brake assist so even this is unlikely).. Maybe idiot resistant then...

Personally I love LSD's. I love the feel they give to handling, making it nice and highly responsive at the tail end. It adds extra personality to the car. Personality counts for alot in a car IMHO. Its what sets a SS or XR8 away from a Camry.

Active diffs are the new thing, its all electronic. A car with a active diff can behave just about anyway you want, from safe, slow, single spinner style, to monster oversteer powerslider and they work well with electronic systems like ESP etc.

Personally I think most cars should be fitted with a LSD. People would have a much greater understanding of handling and would be much cleaner in their driving..

[onezero]

First time in the wet with an LSD... I ended up spinning across the highway on the way to school.

Had absolutely no idea what to do.

[eed-250]

Single spinner safer????
Try controlling a single spinner diff in a slide and then try it in an LSD. LSD is much more controllable you can steer the car on the throttle :D , single spinner totally unpredictable.


exactly what i was going to say mate.
Sometimes when i drive single spins the back end still kicks out and then once its out u dont know what its going to do... i think they both have pros and cons but overall i think it would be harder to spin out with an open centre diff.

[plonkerchops]

give me an LSD any day , my VN Calais used to swap drive from wheel to wheel, making it fishtail even more

[chevypower]

People can have their theories and I understand where they are coming from thinking LSDs are more dangerous. But the reality is, the LSD is less dangerous, and more easy to control when the rear is sliding, most of the time all you have to do is back off on the throttle and the car will go back on course. This doesnt happen with a single spinner because when it fishtails, it generally isnt as result of both back wheels spinning as pointed out, but it can still slide and will take too many counter-steers to correct. The LSD is more predictable whether you are an ''advanced'' or ''novice'' driver... who wouldnt back off the accelerator if their car wasnt starting to fishtail? In fact with LSD I can be fishtailing and be confident enough i can give it even more throttle if desired without totally loosing it.... The only cars I have ever lost total control going sideways have single spinners - and admittedly crappier suspension and tyres too, but i wouldnt go back to a single spinner!

[Dacious]

Oh yeah, single spinners are safer - that's why BMW, who make one of the most advanced ESP systems in the world puts them in their base 3-series and LSDs in their M-cars...... :rolleyes:

Oops, must have made a mistake on the new V-10 M5, putting one in....

A couple of instances in this thread people have blamed LSDs for accidents they couldn't possibly have caused.

Saying LSD caused a car to swap ends turning into a corner or slowing down with the throttle closed is stupid. More likely the difference in side-grip front/rear caused by a difference in weight distribution combined with a quick aquaplane on a wet surface was the cause. Having wide wheels with bald tyres is a more likely explanation than LSD.

My old man's 308 HT Brougham had no LSD and was the easiest thing to swap ends in - lotsa weight in the front, slow power steering/ feedback so you couldn't catch the slide and no weight out back but a big overhang. When the inside rear spun, the other would let go abruptly on righthanders and you'd find yourself quickly facing the way you came. It only ever did it when provoked, but was almost impossible to stop when it started.

It's called a large motor with lots of torque just off idle coupled with poor vehicle dynamics/grip and inexperience. When the try spins it also doesn't provide side-grip which keeps the rear in line - when one tyre slips, the other takes less to.

I could induce it by turning into a corner too hard in the wet with the throttle shut.


First time in the wet with an LSD... I ended up spinning across the highway on the way to school.
Had absolutely no idea what to do.

Is that supposed to be the fault of the LSD? Try:


First time out in the wet I jumped on the throttle too hard, lost the back, couldn't control the slide and ended up spinning across the highway on the way to school.
Had absolutely no idea what I was doing.

Not trying to be harsh, but I think that's more it.

[eed-250]

First time in the wet with an LSD... I ended up spinning across the highway on the way to school.

Had absolutely no idea what to do.

but then again, if he was in an open cetnre car chances are he wouldnt of spun out. Most people dont have a clue so thats why some people would agree Open Centre is safest. At my level of driving where i can steer with the throttle i find lsd to be safer cause i know what the car is going to do. This is a hot topic!!! :D

[kevwrx]

for us guys maybe.... we who can steer the car and know how to steer out of the slide....
but
Joe average driver, if he gets a slide with an LSD
the 1st thing he will do, is take his foot off...
and the car will spin , if he (with an LSD) he lost traction in both rear wheels !
try it sometime...in a carpark or somewhere outta the road when wet....
this is one thing that is taught at the 2nd or 3rdlevel Advanced driving courses
Murcotts get you enter the corner at the end of the main Sandown straight (which has been wet down) at about 60 and back off...
and you watch 'em spin 180's 270's :lol:
the trick is not to backoff or accelerate, just hold constant throttle, works with both LSd and single spinner btw...
so
for 'Joe normal' I would go the single spinner

cheers

Sorry to sound a bit picky but...
Murcotts dont get you to come into turn 1 at Sandown and back off the gas, they get you to nail the gas to experience power on over steer.
Before I get flamed, I was Senior Instructor at Murcotts for nearly 11 years.
These days I got my own driver training school and we use a skid pan instead for oversteer / understeer training.

[Aloof]

KEVWRX:

i've had the pleasure of doing an advanced driving course with you and i am sad to hear all this BS about lsd.

over a 2 day course i have learnt to drive my lsd equiped vehicle with confidence in over/ under steer situations.

if there are people out there who think that the answer to being in a slid and heading off course is not to back off the throttle, i guess i will see you in the next life.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO DRIVE PROPERLY

DON'T BLAME YOU CAR"S DIFF FOR YOUR F$CKUPS

[Hot Carl]

its interesting what people are saying about LSD's and how you should react to sliding in the wet.

ive recently got the ss ute, and the first week i had it it had pissed down, andi floored it in 1st out of a sideroad subconsiously thinking like a fwd 100kw car driver as i ahve been for 3 years, ended up fairly sideways across two lanes, shitting myself, but i just kept moderate throttle on, corrected slightly, and the thing spun back to forward direction and settled right down.

ive never had a rwd before this car, though ive driven berlinas, trucks etc.

the difference i felt in the control i had to get out of this idiotic situation was amazing compared to the berlina. when that goes, you have no chance. the ute seemed to hunker down with a little bit of throttle and right itself very quickly.

so me with zero experience in powerful rwd's was able to easily correct with the LSD. I tihnk LSD's help a great deal whether youre a "normal" driver or some hotshot on ls1.com.au :)

[IIV8II]

Safer for who? Mr and Mrs General Popluation, or an enthusiast who may - or may not - know how to 'steer'?

[Wayne Sumner]

ive driven lots of cars, lsd's and single spinners. i prefer the lsd.
but it all comes down to the driver.

i find that a lsd is much easier to control, but i can still slide a single wheeler, jsut you need more speed and control.

i also find that these holden LSD's are pretty shit, mines starting to let go. it does 2lines in a straight line, but when it comes to a corner it tends to 1wheel. might have to get the diff shimmed.

[seldo]

I'm seeing some pretty scary posts in this thread that tell me that there's an awful lot of people out there that really shouldn't be driving cars with this much power. Anyone who has to ask the question should go and get themselves into an advanced driver training program promptly, before they hurt someone.

[Padina]

yeah i got the single spinner with traction control on mine, and am absolutely sick of them both. every time i jump into the car, and start the engine, first thing i make sure is that the traction control is switched off, unless its really porring down. i do want to get the LSD installed, so if anyones got any ideas or info where i can go to get it done, and how much it will cost, please let me know. Thanks.

Cheers...

[xshore]

I feel I have a fair bit of experience with the single spinner in the wet. This was in my younger days when I was an idiot. I had 2 bald front retreads and in the wet I must have lost control ~ 20 times over the years. Usually I would just slide off a corner into the embankment. Thank god it was the country. I don't remember at any stage being able to control the car, it just slid the direction i was going in due to momentum. Even when I was doing 360's at 90km/hr for 150 meters. so yeah, single spinner = me not ONCE being able to regain control.

I feel I have used up all my lives so these days when the wipers come on I knock of 15 km/hr. I will be even more careful when I get my SS.

[Jozo]

Having just got my ute back after fixing the LSD (which wasnt working, nice one holden) ive definately had to change my driving style.

So far ive found it easier to control without the LSD but i guess i just have to get used to the way the car reacts now with LSD fixed. Back off the throttle during power slides now and say hello to 180.

[brchi17]

From my expirence, LSD is a must have for all performance cars & I love the one I've got in the SV8.

However the thing that worries me is when driving with the T/C on in the wet as if you get into a slide, the T/C prevents you from driving it out 'fun style' rather forcing you to straighten up which has almost caught me out a couple of times, hence why when the rain fall I turn off the T/C & use my head & the right foot.

cheers. :)

[VS_SeV]

Guys in all honesty I can say that driving a single wheel spinner in my VS is very predictable. When you floor the gas in the straight lane in the wet doing between 5-30KM/H the wheel just starts spinning but the car is going straight 90% of the times, if the car does go sideways for uneven surface, oil etc then as soon as I stop excellerating the car just resumes its normal straight position. I dont see what all the fuss is about. Having said that, the VN commodore was shocking in the wet if you floored, that would go side ways all the time.
I like the control my car gives me in the wet, very fun!

And if you are too worried about getting bogged down in the middle of an intersection with an oncoming truck or car coming towards you, mate wtf you doing silly crap in the wet anyway, just wait for a better opportunity where you have a bigger distance gap or an amber light. Like another poster said, good drivers drive hard in the dry, in the wet you wrap your car around the pole if you want to do tricks.

[chevypower]

The point is you dont need to wait if u have LSD and decent tyres - compared to when i test drove an XT Falcon 5.4 manual with no LSD and obviously crap tyres, my first attempted take off - in the dry, the car just sat there smoking one wheel, the car didnt even move forward - and that was without trying too hard - mind you it did put a big smile on my face!

[VS_SeV]

The point is you dont need to wait if u have LSD and decent tyres - compared to when i test drove an XT Falcon 5.4 manual with no LSD and obviously crap tyres, my first attempted take off - in the dry, the car just sat there smoking one wheel, the car didnt even move forward - and that was without trying too hard - mind you it did put a big smile on my face!Would that Falcon or any other car for the matter go quicker with LSD?

[chevypower]

Theoretically if both had full traction, it would obviously accelerate at the same rate. But experience shows that without LSD and a little too much torque, and accelerating hard can be a little difficult to do without excessive wheelspin. All the LSD equipped cars we've had here, even in the wet, you can give it quite a bit without breaking traction. That's harder to do in a manual, but having LSD has always made accelerating more reliable.

Anyone that's had a powerful car with AND without LSD will know what I am talking about.

eg: I have driven the BA XT manual 5.4 (no LSD) and a BA XR8 and GTP - i didnt have that traction problem in the two Boss BAs...

Dad had a VS Statesman V8 with no LSD b4 he upgraded to a Grange with LSD, and the Grange was always more willing in the wet to get up and go without spinning too much.

I admitted the tyres make a big difference too, but I believe the LSD plays a big part.

[wrexed03]

Guys in all honesty I can say that driving a single wheel spinner in my VS is very predictable. When you floor the gas in the straight lane in the wet doing between 5-30KM/H the wheel just starts spinning but the car is going straight 90% of the times, if the car does go sideways for uneven surface, oil etc then as soon as I stop excellerating the car just resumes its normal straight position. I dont see what all the fuss is about. Having said that, the VN commodore was shocking in the wet if you floored, that would go side ways all the time.
I like the control my car gives me in the wet, very fun!

And if you are too worried about getting bogged down in the middle of an intersection with an oncoming truck or car coming towards you, mate wtf you doing silly crap in the wet anyway, just wait for a better opportunity where you have a bigger distance gap or an amber light. Like another poster said, good drivers drive hard in the dry, in the wet you wrap your car around the pole if you want to do tricks.
"And if you are too worried about getting bogged down in the middle of an intersection with an oncoming truck or car coming towards you, mate wtf you doing silly crap in the wet anyway, just wait for a better opportunity where you have a bigger distance gap or an amber light. Like another poster said, good drivers drive hard in the dry, in the wet you wrap your car around the pole if you want to do tricks."

Im my case it was dry and the damn traction control still came on unexpectedly. I just drive without it now unless raining but leave more distance when turning in the wet just incase.

[VQ304]

And if you are too worried about getting bogged down in the middle of an intersection with an oncoming truck or car coming towards you, mate wtf you doing silly crap in the wet anyway, just wait for a better opportunity where you have a bigger distance gap or an amber light. Like another poster said, good drivers drive hard in the dry, in the wet you wrap your car around the pole if you want to do tricks.

It's not that the driver is doing silly crap though, it's because the car isn't good in low grip environments. I think some sort of LSD should be mandatory on a V8 (even if it's just a loose LSD, better than nothing). An old 5L or something might not have much power, but they still have decent low down torque and it can be quite easy to spin the wheels without even trying when there's not much grip.

It happened to me again today. I was trying to pull out on to a main road but there was a bit of dirt on the road where I was. Put my foot down a bit and it spins them up. Back off and try again, spins the wheels. Try again and it finally gets going. And if you're thinking that I just have too much of a lead foot and that's why it happens, you'd be wrong. I'm one of the biggest grandmas around :lol:

[carfreakxr6]

I have LSD in my au xr6 and I find it very predictable, always slides out to the left. Even in the dry sometimes its slides out instead of smoking up, very easy to control. I always flaw it in the rain from standstills easy to control not cornerning though cause I know Ill end up in a pole. Although I got caught out once in the wet when making a turn, it fish tailed out and by the time I realized it was too late and ended up on a mediam strip. I was half asleep and not concentrating. But my fault for not concentrating. Dont ever underestimate the wet!

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

I'm not sure it might be me not being used to the power, but i find that when the foot comes down when going through a corner the whole ass end will just flick out very quickly with the LSD which absolutley scares the bajeezus out of me. And when you try to back off the whole thing will just flick back and you end up doing a huge tank slapper down the street. I find the single spinner if you get the back end out you can keep the peddle planted and it'll bring itself back, however this theory has only been tested with old VK Commodores, XD Falcons and the odd 240GL Volvo. :lol:
I also have a theory on cars that flick out quickly. Is it possible suspension set up could be a factor cause if its setup to grip it'll grip but when it does let go oh boy does it ever. I found that my old supra (also fitted with LSD) was damn scary to get sideways too. BTW Supra was a non turbo, she had guts but nothing like a GenIII though.

[m@w8]

An important factor in the whole LSD argument is having decent tyres. If you have crappy or worn tyres with an LSD, you'll lose traction earlier, and lose both rear wheels.

I used to have a 1993 Liberty GX AWD. 100kW at the crank. Like most AWD Subarus it has an LSD rear diff and open front. But when I obtained it, there was a set of very average Hankook 175 tyres on it.

In the wet if you gave it heaps around a corner even the humble 2.2 litre had enough power to break the Hankooks feeble grip on the road, and the rear would start spinning both wheels and come around. The first time it happened, I ended up facing the wrong way on the opposite footpath!!!

Upgrading to a set of 16" WRX Wheels and Yokie A539 tyres solved that (for the 100kW GX anyway).

[Doug]

Ahh yes - don't under estimate the importance of good tyres with LSD.

My shift kit in a bit too harsh on the 1-2 change. With my current set of A539's a week or two off being replaced, and the rain in Melbourne over the last 24 hours, I'm finding traction control bring triggered almost every 1-2 shift. With less than 25% throttle and traction control off, the rear end almost steps out of my lane. If I gave it any more I'd be doing circles.

[RamRod]

I well I guess that explains how I did a 180 in my old VP (LSD). Turning right (like a granny) on greasy road and the arse started to slide. After driving mostly single spinners my reaction we to let off the gas. I ended up faceing about 10 cars that were following me aroung the corner :eek:. Luckily they 2 other lanes to go into.