The Great Aussie Ripoff

[dominik]

I just read an article at news.com.au on the Aussie-sourced Pontiac GTO which said Americans find them bland and too expensive.

How much is too expensive for Uncle Sam?

Apparently $33,000US, which converts to around $42,000AU. Now throw in the $3500US ($4500AU) rebate Pontiac is offering as an incentive to buy remaining 2004 stock and the revised cost in AU$ is approx. $37,500AU.

$37,500AU for a 5.7L LS1 Monaro with a slightly modified nose.

Compare this to Holden's $60,490 asking price for the same car with the original front end.

Cha-Ching! $23,000 more for what is essentially the same car.

You'd think we'd be getting our LOCAL CARS for less than buyers overseas. After all, if we wanted to drive a brand new imported BMW M3 Coupe for example, thanks to various taxes designed to protect the domestic (Holden and Ford) market, we have to fork out $100K more than our American friends. The same goes for Mercs, Jags, Audis... the list goes on.

Okay, so the majority of us can't afford to buy the expensive European sports cars (M3, SL55 AMG, RS6, etc.), yet when we turn to our local car makers for a better deal we get generously reamed.

So as Australians we can proudly tell the rest of the world that we hold the distinction of paying $20,000+ more than Americans for cars that are built right here in our own backyard.

Aren't we lucky little buggers Down Under?

[OakenShield]

Keeping in Mind it isn't EXACTLY a rebadged Monaro - ours is Sport & Luxury - the GTO is pretty much just sport. Not $20,000 of luxury's worth but that is where some of the price difference goes. Don't forget bigger wheels etc here aswell, and just an overall better package!

Also remember they are competing with all sorts of competition for around that price tag in the US, cars are much cheaper over there than here no matter where they come from. So to them, it is a bit steep. As you say - mostly because of our taxes to protect the local market.

IMHO the GTO is more comparitive to our SV8 in the way of features, so if you do that, it isn't such a bad price tag.

[dominik]

OakenShield, you're right about the rims, 17" vs. 18", but the GTO interior is all leather and looks quite nice. www.pontiac.com/gto/

LS1 output is around 260kw however the LS2 goes into the 2005 models well before we'll see it in a Holden car without a HSV badge.

So next year, for around $40K AU$, they'll be driving the 6.0L LS2 GTO (Monaro) with a 300kw engine and I'm guessing larger rims to go with the more aggressive styling (bonnet scoops, etc). If we want the same car--performance wise--with the HSV body kit, what are we looking at... just under $80,000AU?

I stand by what I said earlier. These are our cars and we're getting ripped off.

[VYBerlinaV8]

Seems to me we are paying a 'looks' premium for the Monaro here anyway - does it really cost that much than an SV8 or SS to build? More to the point, does it really cost much different to make one V8 Commy into an SS or SV8 anyway?

It's a long held truth that car makers make more profit on their higher spec models anyway.

Not that I'd complain if we were paying US prices for our cars.... Imagine what you could get a new SV8 for?!?!

[markone2]

Perhaps the mods could direct the question to our resident *Holden* member :) ...I believe many here would be most interested in the answer...ummm $33K USA minus the shipping costs....per-chance a AUS $4500 rebate from Holden :diddy: ..........I'll take two ...where do I sign?

or are we subsidising the GTO with our Monaro sales :confused:

[Dacious]

The Monaro deal was done long before the GTO ever entered the arena. Holden priced it to make a profit, and intended to originally build 10K cars over three years. Yes, it's dear - but not compared to a Calais which has the same trim and build level - believe me, SSs and even stock Commodores aren't bad, but the Monaro is made a little better. They had to recoup the $60M tooling cost which over a smaller number of cars obviously cost more. :(

The GTO didn't enter the scene until '02, after the Monaro hit the market. It has a lot less stuff in it - no dualzone climate, no side airbags, no memory seat, lesser wheels and tyres, park assist, autodim mirror etc etc etc. The fact that they sold more GTOs in one year than all the CV8s made in three, makes them cheaper by the dozen.

Plus GM US is trying to re-intro a new car to a reluctant market, whereas people were swinging from the rafters to buy 'naros. I reckon they should have sold it as the Monaro, but they wanted to use the GTO name and that's what they've done. GM US probably hamstrung the GTO with their lack of marketing and dealer distribution, so now they're having to pay rebates to unload them. Holden has no control over that. The LS2 and other bits (I don't want a non-functional spoiler and scoops) are just a sop to the US die-hards. :mad:

People always want to pay less, but ask any Monaro buyer if they got their moneys' worth and i'll think most'll tell you they did. The next cheapest RWD V8 coupe with less performance and poorer passenger accomodation in Australia is more than double the $$$$. Plus the cars are holding resale very nicely copared to just about anything including BMs and Mercs. Holden could have dropped the price, but the older Series 1 and 2 owners would have screamed blue murder about resale. So it costs more to buy, but you get more back when you sell. :)

I think they've done the sensible thing. The Monaro is an expensive, low volume car to build, because of the special tooling like the ceramic dies for the bodywork which have to be replaced more often, all the special bits of trim and parts unique to the Monaro like folding power seats.

I leased a Monaro this year (unpopular colour which was my pick anyhow, $8K off) but I would have willingly stumped up the full $60K. I also bought this year to AVOID the '05 Monaro changes, especially losing half the boot!. :bash:

You can easy get LS2 levels of power out of an unopened LS1 - there may be no LS2Edit for up to a year, and that motor is more highy tuned to start with so it'll be harder to extract big gains out of. Now they've sorted the LS1 out (mine is a gem) i'm not sorry I have it at all. 350ish hp is more than enough.

Wait until the '07 Monaro is built in the US, and pray it's only cheaper in terms of dollars! :confused:

Yep, we pay premium prices for what is arguably Holden's halo car. I can't wipe the smile off my face whenever I drive it. It took me a while to feel comfortable, like I deserved to drive it, but now I love it. :D :D :D

[V-Car]

Perhaps the mods could direct the question to our resident *Holden* member :) ...I believe many here would be most interested in the answer...ummm $33K USA minus the shipping costs....per-chance a AUS $4500 rebate from Holden :diddy: ..........I'll take two ...where do I sign?

or are we subsidising the GTO with our Monaro sales :confused:

Dont think youd get an answer on that one! :lol:

But im surprised that no one has mentioned the anti dumping laws in the US (do they still have them?)
Basically it says that no overseas built vehicle is allowed to be sold in the US for less than it is in its home country.
Now i know that they have de-contented the Monaro slightly, but not anything like the price it is being sold at there.
Me thinks there is a little 'creative accounting' going on at Holden. ;)

[BA$TAD]

I think if you look at a potential competitor to it, the Ford Mustang GT V8 at 27,750US driveaway, i see their point of view. The options you get with the stang as well are pretty good. The GTO has a lot to prove still.

check this article out to see what I mean.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8778

[GM350]

Nothing suprises me with them, the dumb ass Aussie here can blo his $100k on a GTS,R8 or GTO CV8 and the smart ones can wait a year and pic it up for 30% cheaper or pick up a runout SV8 for $30k spend $10k and have what you want.

[V-Car]

The Monaro deal was done long before the GTO ever entered the arena. Holden priced it to make a profit, and intended to originally build 10K cars over three years. Yes, it's dear - but not compared to a Calais which has the same trim and build level - believe me, SSs and even stock Commodores aren't bad, but the Monaro is made a little better. They had to recoup the $60M tooling cost which over a smaller number of cars obviously cost more. :(

The GTO didn't enter the scene until '02, after the Monaro hit the market. It has a lot less stuff in it - no dualzone climate, no side airbags, no memory seat, lesser wheels and tyres, park assist, autodim mirror etc etc etc. The fact that they sold more GTOs in one year than all the CV8s made in three, makes them cheaper by the dozen.

Then if its cheaper now to build them than it was at the start, why havent they lowered the price here closer to the US price? After all, the Monaro is now based on the GTO for ease of build, not the other way round.
The cost (to Holden) for the extras that the Monaro gets over the GTO is only a fraction of what we are charged for as options.

Are we being reamed with prices (not just Holden, but especially Benz and BMW) in Australia? Yes.
Why? Because they can, and if people will pay it, they will charge it. Prices charged are what the market will bare, not how much it costs to build.
Will things change? No

[Dacious]

Then if its cheaper now to build them than it was at the start, why havent they lowered the price here closer to the US price? After all, the Monaro is now based on the GTO for ease of build, not the other way round.
The cost (to Holden) for the extras that the Monaro gets over the GTO is only a fraction of what we are charged for as options.

Re-read my post. If Holden dropped the price I and many others would be demanding the same sort of rebate as the Adventra buyers got when the price of that vehicle fell. Plus they don't have to - the demand is there, the car is more exclusive so you pay more. That's how the free market works. If tons of Monaros sat on lots they'd stop building them and rebate the buggery out of them. Go look at Merc or BM - you'll never see them discount or rebate their better lines, even when they don't sell and they are careful not to saturate the market - the buyers know it which is one reason they have consistent sales and loyal owners. Toyota does the same with Lexus - they're not built or equipped that much better than an Avalon Grande.

It may be tough to comprehend, but price a V8 Calais - $57K RRP - same bits more or less, plus they'll sell more of them and there's far less effort/cost to build. Why don't Holden discount them - can't cost that much more than an Exec to build?

The answer is, because you are buying a name, not just a car. if you don't want to pay the premium. You are free to buy an SV8 and get near the same performance @60% of the price.

[V-Car]

Re-read my post.

Im not having a go at you Dacious, im just asking a question in general...and stating a personal opinion. :cheers:

[dominik]

Are we being reamed with prices (not just Holden, but especially Benz and BMW) in Australia? Yes.
Why? Because they can, and if people will pay it, they will charge it. Prices charged are what the market will bare, not how much it costs to build.
Will things change? No I agree with everything V-Car said. Right on the money.

At Yankee prices we could own a brand new BMW M3 for under $65,000. Of course there's no way the powers that be would allow that to happen (for the M3 or similar Euro sports cars) because sales of Australian sports cars--at current prices--would plummet.

Okay, so we're stuck with a $160,000AU price tag for the BMW. But instead of giving us a GTS for that $65,000 with the BMW and everything else like it off the financial radar for most people, they whack another $30K on the retail tag and expect us to cop it sweet. Because after all, the Beamer is now $65K more than what they're asking so we'll buy it, right?

I tell you what, I'd like to bid on a brand new US-bound GTO before it's badged and rolled onto the ship. I mean surely if Pontiac can make money in the US selling them for $37,500AU and keep the folks at Holden happy in the process, the cars could be sold here for $15,000 less than the $60K they're currently asking for and still make a healthy profit. Or am I missing something?

[dominik]

To clarify my position, for a long time it's ticked me off that Americans can get those high-performance European sports cars so cheap, but I can live with that. What I really can't stand is the idea that it's somehow okay for us to be paying more for our own cars than the Americans we're selling them to.

I mean, could you imagine if we got their Dodge Vipers, Corvettes, Trans-Ams, Mustangs, etc. for less than what they're paying? There would be an outcry. The Monaro is ours. The Pontiac GTO is practically 95% Monaro. Why should they get the discount? Or rather, where's our discount? :confused:

[Beej]

I think if you look at a potential competitor to it, the Ford Mustang GT V8 at 27,750US driveaway, i see their point of view. The options you get with the stang as well are pretty good. The GTO has a lot to prove still.

check this article out to see what I mean.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8778

One point though - as someone who spends a lot of time in the US and drives a lot of Mustangs when over there - new Mustangs are a POS - their build quality is crap, the interior is sooo cheap looking! Base models have bugger all features, and they do not have the performance or handling to even come close to a GTO. If most seppos are too dumb to see what they get for a measily $5k extra in those terms then maybe we shouldn't bother trying to sell them half decent cars!!;)

Cheers,

Beej

[quicksilverss]

Holden = Not enough car for the buck

[Beej]

I agree with everything V-Car said. Right on the money.

Me too! ;) It's business - you sell something for as much as you can get people to pay, and if you can shift your stock at that price make a profit then you have a business. The higher the margin the more profitable your business is!



At Yankee prices we could own a brand new BMW M3 for under $65,000. Of course there's no way the powers that be would allow that to happen (for the M3 or similar Euro sports cars) because sales of Australian sports cars--at current prices--would plummet.

Okay, so we're stuck with a $160,000AU price tag for the BMW. But instead of giving us a GTS for that $65,000 with the BMW and everything else like it off the financial radar for most people, they whack another $30K on the retail tag and expect us to cop it sweet. Because after all, the Beamer is now $65K more than what they're asking so we'll buy it, right?


In fact a really interesting thing to think about is the true impact of our luxury car taxes - designed to tax the rich right? Who can afford it yes? The result though is that ALL cars become more expensive for exactly the reasons pointed out by dominik above! If a BMW M3 only cost $100K then a GTS would have to be priced at around $60-$70k in order to have a market right? Likewise the prices of all the in between models would also be pushed down lower. So the fact we have all these ridiculous luxury taxes and weighted tarrifs is the real reason by we pay more for *all* our cars - not just the top end.

Cheers,

Beej

[seldo]

One point though - as someone who spends a lot of time in the US and drives a lot of Mustangs when over there - new Mustangs are a POS - their build quality is crap, the interior is sooo cheap looking! Base models have bugger all features, and they do not have the performance or handling to even come close to a GTO. If most seppos are too dumb to see what they get for a measily $5k extra in those terms then maybe we shouldn't bother trying to sell them half decent cars!!;)

Cheers,

Beej
All true. We wouldn't accept the standard of finish of the average US built car. They are as rough as guts. Monaro is vastly better in this regard. I was in Europe some years ago and went through the Renault and Peugeot factories. I was amazed at the lesser finish quality that they accept, and the guide said that they have to do special finishes for Aust, especially underbonnet, boot, doorjambs etc. We build a world class product here and should be proud of it.

[seldo]

Me too! ;) It's business - you sell something for as much as you can get people to pay, and if you can shift your stock at that price make a profit then you have a business. The higher the margin the more profitable your business is!



In fact a really interesting thing to think about is the true impact of our luxury car taxes - designed to tax the rich right? Who can afford it yes? The result though is that ALL cars become more expensive for exactly the reasons pointed out by dominik above! If a BMW M3 only cost $100K then a GTS would have to be priced at around $60-$70k in order to have a market right? Likewise the prices of all the in between models would also be pushed down lower. So the fact we have all these ridiculous luxury taxes and weighted tarrifs is the real reason by we pay more for *all* our cars - not just the top end.

Cheers,

Beej
Again..spot on! :)

[myles]

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/M/M3Coupe (www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/M/M3Coupe)

Americans do pay around $45 K for an M3. That's amazing. Imagine buying an M3, its handling and performance for $60-65 K Australian dollars instead of the $150K it costs here. How would Holden compete?

Holden should be counting its lucky stars an M3 doesn't cost $60 K Australian as they'd have to figure out a way of offering a GTS for around $50 000.

As one member mentioned, and as illustrated by the cheap price of a GTO with all its features, I think there is a degree of Holden being 'creative' with pricing numbers.

At least if we're paying a higher price than the americans, give us a kw increase.

[VS_SeV]

America gets good bargains from all over the world, Australia picks up the scraps, been like that since the day one. :rolleyes: :bash:

[r8ls1]

I used to think we get ripped big time on cars until I saw their truck prices. currently advertised here 99 Isuzu FVR tilt tray, $110k. Out of interest spent 5 minutes on google and found an exact same model on a US site , same year, motor, options, Tilt slide. They call em roll-back. $22,000 :eyes:

_________________________________________

[Dacious]

America gets good bargains from all over the world, Australia picks up the scraps, been like that since the day one. :rolleyes: :bash:

Go live in the US with their cost of living ($10K p.a. health insurance) and see how 'good' it is. Remember, if you wanted a US-built V8 this year from GM, you had to buy a pickup truck, a Corvette ($US60ish) or a Cadillac CTS-V ($US45ish). You could buy any number of Holden or Oz Ford variants here, some for not much more than half that. In fact, Holden has made more vehicles with alloy LS1s in them in the last few years than all the rest of GM, probably!

And as noted, many US vehicles just wouldn't pass muster for an Australian audience in terms of build quality, performance and usability at the prices. Remember the $Au85K Cobra R of two years ago? had to be completely rebuilt, just about and was a stinker onnce it passed ADRs.

They get lower prices because they're closer to Japan and Europe, and more people want to sell more things there. There's volumes more trade and in larger lots. Holden sells 170,000 Commodore-base cars p.a. including Luminas, Vauxhalls, GTOs. Ford sells 180,000 Exploders and 150,000 Rustangs in the US alone - and they make many more models than that!

BMW (Zs), Honda (V6s), Yamaha, Toyota (Avalon, Camry), Mazda (6), Lexus, Nissan (Maxima, Infiniti), Kawasaki and others all have plants in the US making cars and motorcycles. That's why things are cheaper there.

Then we are here stuck in the arsehole end of the world twice as far away with a completely unique set of vehicle regulations that aren't compatible with the EU or US. Is it any surprise cars are so expensive?

Meanwhile we lost Nissan and we're losing Mitsu. So thank your lucky stars for Holden and Ford, or we'd all be driving riced-out Integras and Hyundais!

The grass is always greener. Not saying it couldnt' be better here, but it's no bowl of cherries there, either.

[ROGUE]

At todays dollar value, you can pick up a brand new M3 in the states for AUD$57k...

if i had the choice of that, or my ute which i've spent almost that much on, i know what i'd be picking......

[BA$TAD]

At todays dollar value, you can pick up a brand new M3 in the states for AUD$57k...

if i had the choice of that, or my ute which i've spent almost that much on, i know what i'd be picking......
does that 57k include the conversion to RHD?

[rocks-crewman]

This issue has brought up a plethora of questions and angles with the Monaro/GTO that are certainly thought provoking. I can understand why Holden would price the Monaro where it is here, however based on what the Yanks pay after it has been shipped there plus rebates etc I find a bit of a slap in the face for us.
I was thinking this issue over on the way home from work yesterday, then this thought entered by head: just imagine the Yanks (for example) made a mid-sized V8 sedan/coupe that everyone over there liked alot. So then they export it here (RHD of course) and slap a A9X/SLR 5000 (for example) badge on it, despite that it in no way resembles that particular aussie muscle-car legend. So what if it is a good car and well built/priced? Would we accept it as the replacement for a long lost classic that was ours and ours alone? I reckon some of us would take it for what it is and enjoy the hell out of it, however many (perhaps older) diehards would not be impressed for a whole heap of reasons, regardless of how good the new car is. Should it have been plugged as a replacement for the legendary Pontiac GTO? Probably not - maybe Firebird or even as the Monaro. Are we getting ripped off for the Aussie Monaro - I believe so - based purely on what the yanks are paying. Had the Monaro not gone o/s, most of us would believe the current price is "fair" for what you get for the $$$.
p.s - if the TT36 (Torana) ever does get the production green light, it would seem most likely that it would be built off-shore, perhaps even the U.S. Would we buy a o/s (or U.S) built Torana (given the reputed lack of build quality - not that we are perfect ourselves - and weird yank suspension tuning)???

[Oldmonroman]

Guys don't forget the yank version has a rear wing on it too.

The Reason why we pay so much is holden had to add heaps on top for all the engines to be replaced, plus buy the look at it nobody on this forum that ownes a Gen 3 Man has ever escaped never changing at least one Clutch.
this is why we pay 60K

[VYSSBlack]

It wouldnt be so bad paying these prices if they started training some of their sales people on what they are selling and teaching their service departments that "quality service" is something that you do, not just something thats written on a sign on the wall.

Just my 2 cents worth

[smoke]

ITS CALLED THE "FREE TRADE AGREEMENT", THE U.S. IS FREE TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE, & WE TRADE ONLY WHAT THEY TELL US!!!!! :mad:

[Rick76]

Dont forget the taxation when comparing. This is a comparison of car prices I posted on LS2.com a while ago based on the exchange rate at the time.

Model / US (USD) / AU (in USD)
Hyundai Accent (Cheapest version)$10,539.00 $11,028.14
Toyota Camry (Cheapest version)$19,560.00 $20,231.75
Honda Accord LX V6 Sedan $23,760.00 $33,283.07
Subaru Impreza WRX Sti $31,545.00 $41,662.69
Pontiac GTO/Holden Monaro $32,495.00 $44,502.49
Chrsyler Crossfire $34,495.00 $51,491.64
Ford Explorer Limited $34,620.00 $47,048.02
Nissan 350Z Track $34,720.00 $48,548.84
Audi TT quattro $40,590.00 $61,430.95
BMW 330ci auto $36,995.00 $72,760.73
BMW M3 $48,195.00 $104,469.40
Lexus LX470 $65,100.00 $86,076.90
Mercedes Benz E55 AMG $78,370.00 $163,251.83
Dodge Viper RT/10 $84,795.00 $187,478.43
Porsche 911 GT3 $101,965.00 $177,965.83
BMW 760Li $117,795.00 $244,546.68
Ferrari 360 Modena $155,000.00 $290,969.35
Lamborghini Murcielago $283,600.00 $312,693.10

Over the above selection of cars they cost an average 58% more in Australia yet the cost of living index is only around 15% higher. I guess it all comes down to volume/market size..... Population 294 million (US) vs 20 million (AU).

Taxation may accounts for a lot of the difference. All Australian cars have 10% GST. AFAIK cars over $57,000 have an additional 25%tax, so 35% total.
As far as I could work out taxation in the US varies by state but is overall much lower.

Average Wage
US $33252 (2002) vs AU (in USD) $33736 (2004)
Very similar

Cost of Living (COL index 2002)
US 100 vs AU 114
ie. A standard selection of goods & services will cost 14% more in AU for the same thing.

Total Business Costs (2004 study over 12 industries)
US 100 vs AU 91.5
ie. It is cheaper to run a business in AU than US.

[m@w8]

Average Wage
US $33252 (2002) vs AU (in USD) $33736 (2004)
Very similar


Hey Rick, where do you get your data from?

Last I checked, the average US wage was a lot more than what we earn over here. My figures were from World Bank 2003.

http://www.worldbank.org/data/quickreference/quickref.html

Check the GNI (Gross National Income) per capita reference on this page.

USA ranked 5th at $37610USD
Aus ranked 20th at $28290USD

[Rick76]

Hey Rick, where do you get your data from?

Last I checked, the average US wage was a lot more than what we earn over here. My figures were from World Bank 2003.

http://www.worldbank.org/data/quickreference/quickref.html

Check the GNI (Gross National Income) per capita reference on this page.

USA ranked 5th at $37610USD
Aus ranked 20th at $28290USD

I think we may be talking about 2 different things.

I cant remember what the sources were (used google searches) as I compiled that list a few months ago and it was a PITA finding data. The average wage data was several years old as shown. I believed the data I posted was accurate as I was quoting the 'average wage' which to my understanding is the average wage of that nation. ie. the average income of the employed.

GNI is not wages. GNI (formerly Gross National Product) is the total dollar value of all final goods and services produced for consumption in society during a particular time period.... per capita is just that total divided by the population. It has more to with measuring economic activity. Thats what I understood anyway.

[Rick76]

Here are some up to date figures.... the Australian figure is helped the current strength of the AUD.

Australia AUD $50,013 (currently $39,567.25 USD)
Source (http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,11431889,00.html)

USA USD $34,064
Source (http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html)
Another... slighlty higher $36,764 (2002) (http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt)

[flht3]

thanks for the gto, i just bought one and like it more every time i drive it, they are new here in the states and i am looking to get some more hp, maybe some of you could give me some help. fell free to e mail me about anything i can help you with, i live in new jersey , thanks ,john :cheers:

[flht3]

Hey Rick, where do you get your data from?

Last I checked, the average US wage was a lot more than what we earn over here. My figures were from World Bank 2003.

http://www.worldbank.org/data/quickreference/quickref.html

Check the GNI (Gross National Income) per capita reference on this page.

USA ranked 5th at $37610USD
Aus ranked 20th at $28290USD
i think the average is about 35,000 a year but most people make 40,000 or more, and in the last 10 years there has been more millionaires then ever.

[dominik]

thanks for the gto, i just bought one and like it more every time i drive it, they are new here in the states and i am looking to get some more hp, maybe some of you could give me some help. fell free to e mail me about anything i can help you with, i live in new jersey , thanks ,john :cheers: John, I'll bet you could bring your new GTO over here and have it converted to RHD for less than the total cost of a new Monaro here. I'm still trying to come to terms with the reality of this.

Consider yourself lucky :)

[flht3]

man.....that just dont seem fair!! i would be pissed too if i were you. whats the shipping for a car? wright now on e bay they have a new red gto with a 6 sp for 24,100 thats a buy it now price !! :cheers:

[r8ls1]

man.....that just dont seem fair!! i would be pissed too if i were you. whats the shipping for a car? wright now on e bay they have a new red gto with a 6 sp for 24,100 thats a buy it now price !! :cheers:
Shipping maybe around $1500-2000 usd. Dont know now with fuel prices so high. I wonder what would happen with customs, if trying to import an Australian made car that was built here then shipped over there.

Say you could land that new red GTO here for $27,000usd = $33,750aud. Shit even if customs took their share + GST, it would end up only $42,000 aud!!!!

thats a major slap in the face. ill slap em back by not buying one of their cars ever again. unless VE is something very special, this will be my last HOLDEN!

[m@w8]

Shipping maybe around $1500-2000 usd. Dont know now with fuel prices so high. I wonder what would happen with customs, if trying to import an Australian made car that was built here then shipped over there.

Say you could land that new red GTO here for $27,000usd = $33,750aud. Shit even if customs took their share + GST, it would end up only $42,000 aud!!!!

thats a major slap in the face. ill slap em back by not buying one of their cars ever again. unless VE is something very special, this will be my last HOLDEN!

What does Holden have to do with it??? ALL CARS are cheap over there. Nothing particularly special about the GTO. :rolleyes: They priced it to compete with what was on the market, and as a result it had to be cheaper. Its a similar price to the BMW 330i over there ($32k vs $35k)... so comparatively speaking, our Monaro is a bargain really. Over here the 330i is almost $100k. Either that, or BMW are robbing us blind. I still don't see how Holden figure into this.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the Holden enthusiasts, because if nobody was buying Monaros here for $60k, then they'd have to drop the price, and either sell them for $50k, or $40k, or most likely not sell them. Basically products are priced as high as possible because companies are not charities.

My Uncle when he was living in Oregon a few years back, he had a 99 Formula Firebird which he shipped back over here when he moved home. All up it owed him ~$45k in purchase (less than $10k), shipping and conversion to RHD. He then sold it for $70k over here.

Supply and demand...

[m@w8]

man.....that just dont seem fair!! i would be pissed too if i were you. whats the shipping for a car? wright now on e bay they have a new red gto with a 6 sp for 24,100 thats a buy it now price !! :cheers:

There's two Monaros on Ebay in Australia for around $35k AUD... Currently our dollar is pretty high, but a couple of months ago that would have been around $24k USD. In Jan 2003 it would have been less than $20k USD!!

Try buying a V8 RWD coupe in Europe and see how you go...

[flht3]

What does Holden have to do with it??? ALL CARS are cheap over there. Nothing particularly special about the GTO. :rolleyes: They priced it to compete with what was on the market, and as a result it had to be cheaper. Its a similar price to the BMW 330i over there ($32k vs $35k)... so comparatively speaking, our Monaro is a bargain really. Over here the 330i is almost $100k. Either that, or BMW are robbing us blind. I still don't see how Holden figure into this.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the Holden enthusiasts, because if nobody was buying Monaros here for $60k, then they'd have to drop the price, and either sell them for $50k, or $40k, or most likely not sell them. Basically products are priced as high as possible because companies are not charities.

My Uncle when he was living in Oregon a few years back, he had a 99 Formula Firebird which he shipped back over here when he moved home. All up it owed him ~$45k in purchase (less than $10k), shipping and conversion to RHD. He then sold it for $70k over here.

Supply and demand...
over here the price of the gto was 33,160 and they tried to add 3,000 to that because people wanted them, when the buying public saw this we stoped buying them, that was 8 months ago and i just bought one for 25,000. so if you all stick together you can make things right. good luck note; you should check out importing one from here, i wouldnt think it would be any different then importing a chevy truck?

[r8ls1]

What does Holden have to do with it??? ALL CARS are cheap over there. Nothing particularly special about the GTO. :rolleyes: They priced it to compete with what was on the market, and as a result it had to be cheaper. Its a similar price to the BMW 330i over there ($32k vs $35k)... so comparatively speaking, our Monaro is a bargain really. Over here the 330i is almost $100k. Either that, or BMW are robbing us blind. I still don't see how Holden figure into this.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the Holden enthusiasts, because if nobody was buying Monaros here for $60k, then they'd have to drop the price, and either sell them for $50k, or $40k, or most likely not sell them. Basically products are priced as high as possible because companies are not charities.


everyone is entitled to their opinion, i merely expressed mine.....

what does Holden have to do with it? oh man! :rolleyes:

not everone here is a 'diehard' holden enthusiast. who's to say monaros sales wont drop here cause of what they done with the GTO pricing? probably not because there will always be an new breed of buyers but there is a lot of ppl who allready dont want a part of holdens rip offs, and holden would have a lot more buyers if they didnt rake in such a huge profit on their cars.

[dominik]

If you want to blame anyone, blame the Holden enthusiasts, because if nobody was buying Monaros here for $60k, then they'd have to drop the price, and either sell them for $50k, or $40k, or most likely not sell them. ... Its a similar price to the BMW 330i over there ($32k vs $35k)... so comparatively speaking, our Monaro is a bargain really. Over here the 330i is almost $100k. Either that, or BMW are robbing us blind. I still don't see how Holden figure into this.You raised a good point; we're basically allowing ourselves to be ripped off, but then again, isn't the problem a blatant lack of competition courtesy of taxes and tariffs? Holden and Ford together enjoy a V8 performance car monopoly in the $45-95K price range with only a small handful of Asian cars like the WRX and 350Z (both limited to around 200kw) left to compete with. Bring something like a V10 BMW M5, a twin-turbo V8 Audi RS6, a supercharged V8 SL55 AMG Mercedes, etc. into the mix at more competitive prices, and suddenly Holden and Ford would have no choice but to lift their game or drop their prices. It's kind of hard for us to protest when there's not much else to choose from, right?

Anyway, since that's not going to happen anytime soon and it wouldn't be fair to the used car market especially because they've been priced this way for so long, what I'd like to see is more bang for our buck at the current prices. For a $60K coupe how about a supercharger option, better suspension, brakes, and exhaust, more interior options, etc. That way we wouldn't envy our friends overseas as much who are clearly getting a fantastic deal compared to us.

See, the problem with the current Holden vs. HSV performance car offerings is the emphasis seems to always be on Holden de-tuning for $45-$60K rather than HSV really cranking things up for $55-95K. Perfect examples are the VTII (257kw engine detuned to 220kw) and the current HSV VZ series (LS2 in stock form with no mods). Obviously they've got to be enjoying a healthy profit margin if Pontiac can afford to sell the rebadged Monaros for much less than they do here along with an Aussie market that sees the European sports cars taxed and tariffed out of the ballpark--so why not give us more for our money, especially on the HSV side of things? Or am I asking too much? :confused:

[m@w8]

over here the price of the gto was 33,160 and they tried to add 3,000 to that because people wanted them, when the buying public saw this we stoped buying them, that was 8 months ago and i just bought one for 25,000. so if you all stick together you can make things right. good luck note; you should check out importing one from here, i wouldnt think it would be any different then importing a chevy truck?


Importing won't be an option because
a) we currently produce and sell the vehicle here, so getting approval would be virtually impossible. (NZ may be different though).
b) the cost of converting to RHD would more than eat up the saving.
c) the GTO is ugly ;)

[Danv8]

Dunno what the bitching is all about but these cars are built to be enjoyed life too short to bitch about it.

Not as if you going to keep your current cars for 20 year or so. ;)

[r8ls1]

oooops!!!!!!!!

[HRT]

It is a well known fact that Holden and Ford have been lobbying the government for decades to protect the industry. THey are afraid of competition because they know that they are not making a world class product. Holden and Ford have been so popular all these years because they know they can get away with making a third rate product.

The typical Aussie car enthusiast would agree with the trade barriers which preserve our car industry. They are under the impression that without all the cheap imports coming in, Holden and Ford will continue making grunty eights and "value for money" family hacks. They also understand that if the industry winds up, thousands would be unemployed and this will contribute to a decline in the Australian economy. So in other words, most Australian enthusiasts and the general public alike are giving Holden and Ford a fair go.

However, Holden and Ford are seeing this as an opportunity to root Australian enthusiasts with the pricing of its vehicles. If you don't look at the prices in the US, the prices in Australia seem to the reasonable. But then again when you think about it, Holden and Ford basically monopolise the industry, which gives them an opportunity to completely screw the Australian consumer; the consumer who has given these companies a surviving chance.

[r8ls1]

It is a well known fact that Holden and Ford have been lobbying the government for decades to protect the industry. THey are afraid of competition because they know that they are not making a world class product. Holden and Ford have been so popular all these years because they know they can get away with making a third rate product.

The typical Aussie car enthusiast would agree with the trade barriers which preserve our car industry. They are under the impression that without all the cheap imports coming in, Holden and Ford will continue making grunty eights and "value for money" family hacks. They also understand that if the industry winds up, thousands would be unemployed and this will contribute to a decline in the Australian economy. So in other words, most Australian enthusiasts and the general public alike are giving Holden and Ford a fair go.

However, Holden and Ford are seeing this as an opportunity to root Australian enthusiasts with the pricing of its vehicles. If you don't look at the prices in the US, the prices in Australia seem to the reasonable. But then again when you think about it, Holden and Ford basically monopolise the industry, which gives them an opportunity to completely screw the Australian consumer; the consumer who has given these companies a surviving chance.
Well said. Which is why I will be thinking twice about buying another one, and others should too.......

___________________

[dominik]

Well said HRT. You summed it up much better than I could.

[m@w8]

It is a well known fact that Holden and Ford have been lobbying the government for decades to protect the industry. THey are afraid of competition because they know that they are not making a world class product. Holden and Ford have been so popular all these years because they know they can get away with making a third rate product.

The typical Aussie car enthusiast would agree with the trade barriers which preserve our car industry. They are under the impression that without all the cheap imports coming in, Holden and Ford will continue making grunty eights and "value for money" family hacks. They also understand that if the industry winds up, thousands would be unemployed and this will contribute to a decline in the Australian economy. So in other words, most Australian enthusiasts and the general public alike are giving Holden and Ford a fair go.

However, Holden and Ford are seeing this as an opportunity to root Australian enthusiasts with the pricing of its vehicles. If you don't look at the prices in the US, the prices in Australia seem to the reasonable. But then again when you think about it, Holden and Ford basically monopolise the industry, which gives them an opportunity to completely screw the Australian consumer; the consumer who has given these companies a surviving chance.

How do you explain the "Euro" Holden pricing then? In Europe you pay similar to BMW, Audi, Peugeot, etc.... pricing for the Opels and Vauxhalls.

e.g. the top spec V6 Vectra is $50k, yet in Europe is priced the same as the V6 Pugs, Audis, and 6cyl BMW's. Over here those cars are all $10-20k more! $50k will only get you a poverty pack 318i BMW.

Basically prices are determined by the market, and there's PLENTY of competition these days, espeically if you aren't blinkered to RWD.


Actually, at least Holden and Ford an paying their own way. I'd be more worried about Mitsubishi, who only stays alive in Aus with gov. subsidys. Your tax dollars at work...

[r8ls1]

Actually, at least Holden and Ford an paying their own way. I'd be more worried about Mitsubishi, who only stays alive in Aus with gov. subsidys. Your tax dollars at work...
That's a whole other topic. Mitsubishi only stays alive so Adelaide doesnt close down. A 'birdie' once told me the government has bailed them out with more than just tax dollars, ie one ex premier now living in the USA, by the name of Johnny "Sack" Olsen and a sum of $60mil. you dont even want to go there. :lol:

[Dacious]

Well, if you guys are so sure you're getting ripped, maybe you should go buy Triburons or some other value for money 'performance' car.

Of course, in Australia there's plenty of choices in headturning, tyreburning, well-made, well-equipped V8 RWD 2-doors for less than $100K like the _____ or the _____.

Deal with it. If you want it stump up the $$$. Otherwise, there's plenty of other cars that go fast, some with V8s, for a lot less. An SV8 has the same engine/trans and many of the same parts for under $40K.

They ask $60K for a Monaro, because that's what it's worth. In Australia. Today. It is made better, and is better equipped, than a $40K car. It drives better than one.

If everyone refused to pay that much they'd stop making the car in a heartbeat - you can't afford sentiment in business unless it pays - and make an extra 10,000 Acclaims or Luminas which they would probably make a lot more money doing. Rather than screwing around with their production line, stocking spares, training staff and so on to build a few thou special cars.

I really wish Holden (or maybe even Ford) made a $35K V8 two-door for you guys. Won't happen any time soon.

In Australia there's nothing competing in the same space as the Monaro. If you want a V8 coupe, that's what makes it a bargain even at full retail.

[seldo]

That's a whole other topic. Mitsubishi only stays alive so Adelaide doesnt close down. A 'birdie' once told me the government has bailed them out with more than just tax dollars, ie one ex premier now living in the USA, by the name of Johnny "Sack" Olsen and a sum of $60mil. you dont even want to go there. :lol:
Within reason, it makes sense.. There is plenty of logic in helping to maintain all these employees on Mitsubishi's (and all the other co-reliant companies' ) payrolls instead of having them on the Government's payroll ( unemployment benefits).

[Dacious]

Within reason, it makes sense.. There is plenty of logic in helping to maintain all these employees on Mitsubishi's (and all the other co-reliant companies' ) payrolls instead of having them on the Government's payroll ( unemployment benefits).

Spot on, Seldo. And does anyone think the US, Canadian, Korea, Japanese, governments don't subsidise their manufacturing?

Canada gave GM interest-free loans worth $300M to build the plant that made Firebirds and Camaros until 2017. It's now a vacant lot.

If Pontiac could charge $US50,000 for the GTO and still sell it, what makes you think they wouldn't? The only thing that stops them is the market won't pay it.

[m@w8]

Of course, in Australia there's plenty of choices in headturning, tyreburning, well-made, well-equipped V8 RWD 2-doors for less than $100K like the _____ or the _____.



Hey... I found plenty of grunty RWD 2-doors... Aston Martin DB7, Bentley Continental GT, Ferrari 575M and 612, Mercedes CL55 and CL500 and CLK500...

Hmmmm, but only the CLK500 gets below $200K!!! Most are worth half a Mil!! And even the CLK500 is around $150K...

Dacious may have a point ;)

Of course once you drop the 2-door RWD criteria, the field opens up a lot, but then again, that's what makes the Monaro the Monaro doesn't it...

[dominik]

If Pontiac could charge $US50,000 for the GTO and still sell it, what makes you think they wouldn't? The only thing that stops them is the market won't pay it. Of course. For the record, I don't think anyone here is bagging the Monaro. You drive one and you're a lucky guy--I like it a lot. I just didn't realize until recently how big the markup on the Monaro is. Compared to other coupes on the market in Australia for the price, I agree with you, it's worth $60K. And if you're happy with it that's all that matters on your end. However, it doesn't mean some of us can't vent a little about Americans getting our cars for a heck of a lot less. And furthermore, it's also okay and by no means un-Australian to complain about the lack of competition in the performance car market here under $100K.

I think we make a pretty solid product these days and if anything a little more competition would push Holden and Ford to make their cars even better for the money rather than force them to take certain ones off the market like you think they might. As someone else on this thread mentioned, they're making some good money off the sports models vs. the base sedans--much more than we realize.

Anyway, no one will ever convince me competition is not a good thing. Until recently all we really had to browse the web for free was Microsoft IE. Once they got their 95% market share they stopped updating it about 3 years ago. Enter Firefox and their market share dipped under 90%. I'll bet when they release the next version of IE it'll be a major improvement over the current one and we'll have the new player on the scene to thank for it. So to bring things back to LS1: of course I wouldn't ever want to see Holden or Ford driven out of the market or for any local jobs to be lost. I'd just like to see a little more competition around to give them a kick in the butt and ultimately we the buying public would be better off for it. Surely you'd be in favor of that?

[HRT]

In Australia there's nothing competing in the same space as the Monaro. If you want a V8 coupe, that's what makes it a bargain even at full retail.
This sums it up really well. The Monaro is in a category of its own because Holden has MONOPOLISED this category. But for Holden and Ford lobbying the government for more trade barriers, there would be plenty of cars to choose from that can rival the Monaro for a figure not much more than the Monaro RRP.

If you want a cheap performance coupe, the only alternative these days is to go the route of a grey import. The Toyota Soarer immediately fits this bill perfectly, although we are talking about new vehicles. When you look at what the US consumer pays for a BMW M3, you would think twice before calling the Monaro a "bargain". The same goes for the HSV GTS's, Senator's e.t.c. They are great cars, but are they really worth paying almost $100K for? Compare this figure to the price the US consumer pays for the Mercedes AMG E55. Makes the HSV's hardly a bargain...

The thing that irritates me the most is that Holden and Ford have virtually manipulated the Australian consumer. It is fair to say that most of us are patriots, and love the Blue Oval and the almighty Lion. The Lion is almost a symbolic part of our country, and we buy its vehicles as a gesture of our keen support for this manufacturer. Many of us have given them numerous chances for product improvement and over the years, it can be seen that Holden vehicles have advanced to new levels.

But for us giving Holden and Ford these chances, they would not have survived. But for the Australian consumer giving Holden and Ford some breathing space, they would not have survived. Holden and Ford know this, yet they don't want to return the favour by giving us cheaper vehicles. I know its part of the business ethic to maximise profits, but there has to be a compromise between profits and customer satisfaction.

The only reason why the market pays for these vehicles, is that most enthusiasts out there do not know the pricing structure in the US. Holden are still playing upon the cards of patriotism, exploiting the minds of blind enthusiasts. Whilst many of you people will continue buying Monaro's and HSV's thinking they represent good BFYB, others will feel betrayed and draw the line and find another alternative. Either way, its still a lose-lose situation for the Australian consumer.

[m@w8]

Keep in mind folks that 18 months ago, our dollar was worth $0.55US and the story was fairly different. Complaining about the current prices and calling it a "markup" by Holden doesn't make any sense.

[JohnS]

Keep in mind folks that 18 months ago, our dollar was worth $0.55US and the story was fairly different. Complaining about the current prices and calling it a "markup" by Holden doesn't make any sense.

Yes everyone seems to be ignoring this.

Including the overseas manufacturers, BMW etc must be cleaning up in Australia. If they sold a car for AUD100K two years ago they got EUR50K today they get EUR57K.

[Dacious]

I was 100% aware of the pricing structure of the GTO in the US was before I got my car. I know for $Oz60K I can buy a runout '04 Vette. But that's in the US, not here. I also know that a 6-series BMW in England is priced similar to a top-line Caprice here, about 50% of the same car in Oz, even in RHD!

But we live in Australia, not the UK or US. They have their own price and lifestyle issues to deal with.

Holden hasn't monopolised anything nor can they by law. Ford chose to import the Cobra Mustang to 'compete' with the Monaro. They listed at $85k. They could have engineered a 2-door Falcon.

It may be news to you but the tarrif on imported cars is down to 5% and falling. When the free trade agreemet comes in there will be no tarrifs for North American products. Chrysler is selling the Crossfire here. Ford may sell the Mustang. Nothing stops them selling here. You can buy the Crossfire, 350Z and RX8 today - all cost the same or more than the Monaro.

[dominik]

Keep in mind folks that 18 months ago, our dollar was worth $0.55US and the story was fairly different. Complaining about the current prices and calling it a "markup" by Holden doesn't make any sense. Good point. However let's not forget the cars are built right here in our backyard and the cost of Australian labor here hasn't changed in those 18 months, so if Pontiac can turn a profit selling imported cars from Oz for less than what we pay here, surely Holden are raking it in. You also have to take into consideration the US-sourced LS1s and LS2s purchased now with a strong dollar (as opposed to 18 months ago) are costing Holden a lot less. Anyway, like HRT said, right now with zero competition in the niche the Monaro occupies $60K seems like a fair deal, especially with nothing from Ford available to compare it with. But if a car like the next generation BMW M3 was available here for under $100K with the 300kw V8 they're dropping into it, Holden/HSV would surely have to rethink their current pricing strategy. Until that day comes they can pretty much name their price.

[dominik]

You can buy the Crossfire, 350Z and RX8 today - all cost the same or more than the Monaro. Crossfire: 3.2L V6 (don't know much about it other than it accelerates well)
350Z: 3.5L V6 (not a bad package once you put a couple of hairdryers in it)
RX8: 1.3L rotary (lawnmower engine)

None of those are V8s. Due to Japanese power restrictions we won't be seeing a V8 on the market from them anytime soon. Toyota made a TT V8 Soarer a while back but as far as I know they were mainly autos with a small handful of 5-speed manuals and they were only available as grey imports.

Simple question... if the Japanese dropped those restrictions tomorrow and Nissan, Subaru, Toyota, etc. started selling V8 coupes and sedans for a similar price to their 4s and 6s and made them available here, how do you think that news would go over at Holden and Ford? I'm willing to bet they'd be packing it. I'll bet they'd start cramming in more features or dropping their prices in a hurry. We need more competition. Let's face it, as soon as Ford caught wind of the LS2 heading this way they went on a marketing blitz dropping prices left right and center on current stock and put a 6 speed gearbox into the XR6 faster than you could say Typhoon. Only competition can make a manufacturer lift their game and the two of them need a little more competition on the market from abroad instead of just going tit for tat with each other. We deserve it.

[JohnS]

Crossfire: 3.2L V6 (don't know much about it other than it accelerates well)

Due to Japanese power restrictions we won't be seeing a V8 on the market from them anytime soon.

Toyota made a TT V8 Soarer a while back

Simple question... if the Japanese dropped those restrictions tomorrow and Nissan, Subaru, Toyota, etc. started selling V8 coupes

The crossfire is built on the superceeded SLK platform known as the "170" by MB and runs a superceeded 3.2L V6. Acceleration is so so.

The Japanese build many cars that are sold in markets outside Japan and the have V8s (Nissan has a 5.6L, Toyota a 4.7L, etc.), the abilty to sell all of it's models inside Japan is clearly not the only business driver.

Don't think Toyota ever made a TT V8.

[V-Car]

It may be news to you but the tarrif on imported cars is down to 5% and falling.

Currently its 15% but after 1st Jan it will be 10%.
But effectively, its really over 25% because on top of the cost of the car, there is the 15% tariff, plus another 10% GST (tax) on the total.
Then theres the stamp duty (tax) plus all the other charges levied at the (cash cow) motorist.
Did you see in another thread i said how much the federal govt. made from us in petrol taxes in the 2002/03 financial year?
$12 billion....no, thats not a typo.
Just remember, that for every $50 worth of petrol you put in your car, you are giving the govt. over $25 more in taxes.

[dominik]

Don't think Toyota ever made a TT V8.

John, you're right, I jumped the gun there. It was a twin turbo 2.5L six that was also available as a 4.0L V8.

As for Japanese V8s, I know they make those V8 trucks and SUVs for markets abroad... but the question I was posing was: if they started offering V8 coupes and sports sedans that exceeded 200kw down here or perhaps 200kw naturally aspirated at the factory and then fitted with a turbocharger or two when they arrive here but all covered by a warranty, how would Holden and Ford react? I think it'd be interesting.

[JohnS]

Hi Dominik,

I think this is more a value issue that a straight cost issue for the 40 - 80K segment, if people were than worried about the cost they can still buy a good basic car for 30K. Value has a lot to do with quality and features.

Call me hopeful but i think that Holden (and i hope Ford Australia) are lifting their game. For Holden we will know a lot more when the VE arrives and then hopefully they can add to the GM range in Australia by drawing from US & Europe GM.

European manufactures (Audi, VW, MB, BMW, Jaguar, etc) have major issues with quality. Recent market research in Germany shows the Toyota is number 1 for comsumer statisfaction but MB is number 1 in perception. MB was 31st for comsumer statiscation. Think this may be similar is Australia and i hope it is not to long for reality is seen.

US manufactures have having been making big gains in such surveys, indeed several GM & Ford brands rate above MB for reliabity is the US surveys (JD Power etc). The Holden cars that are exported are highly regarded. Reports on the Monaro from the US & UK general say the car is well built, well engineered and performs well. The US consumer think the Monaro's styling is bland but one car will never suit a markets.

What i am saying is that;
- European manufactures value is falling.
- Holden value is rising.
- Japanese have always been good value but Holden may now be upto the fight.

BTW some mention about market protect has been made, pls don't forget that in relality the Japanese car market remains one of the most protected in the world.

PS I work in Market Research and own a MB.

[madmonaro]

Maybe somebody from HOLDEN should send a reply as to why we are getting ripped of on the price of the Monaro,would be hilarious to hear the B.S excuses they will come up with.Could you imagine if they upgraded the Monaro with $20,000 (xtra we are paying) worth of extras and sent it to the U.S what it might have on it?

1.4WD
2.7ltre motor
3.Sequential G/box
etc etc.


End result is we are getting ripped off here by Holden as we are subsidising the GTO in america by paying hefty premium here.Shame on you Holden for treating us loyal V8 owners like second class idiots,i will not be buying another V8 from Holden unitl they fix there So-So build quality.

[djgelling]

I just read an article at news.com.au on the Aussie-sourced You'd think we'd be getting our LOCAL CARS for less than buyers overseas. So as Australians we can proudly tell the rest of the world that we hold the distinction of paying $20,000+ more than Americans for cars that are built right here in our own backyard.

Aren't we lucky little buggers Down Under?

Solution is simple............ DON'T BUY THEM!! As long as we, the public, keep paying, they'll keep charging it!! Why would they sell them for 40k when we're falling overselves to buy them at run-out for 50k?? and the fleets are happy to pay approx 55k??

Simple market forces..............

[V82xist]

Solution is simple............ DON'T BUY THEM!! As long as we, the public, keep paying, they'll keep charging it!! Why would they sell them for 40k when we're falling overselves to buy them at run-out for 50k?? and the fleets are happy to pay approx 55k??

Simple market forces..............

Hey that's a great plan. Lets all quite our jobs too, then we can sit on our bums on the dole waiting until Holden has to just give the cars away :p

All the bitching and moaning in this thread is hilarious. Why don't you go and buy a Corolla, oh wait you'll be spending over $30k with extras for a crappy little 4 cylinder car :eek:

[djgelling]

Hey that's a great plan. Lets all quite our jobs too, then we can sit on our bums on the dole waiting until Holden has to just give the cars away :p

All the bitching and moaning in this thread is hilarious. Why don't you go and buy a Corolla, oh wait you'll be spending over $30k with extras for a crappy little 4 cylinder car :eek:

You might have noticed that I own one of these $50k cars, albeit the Blue oval type and before you carry on my previous car was a HOLDEN VT SS, but I just HATE the shape of the VY!! VZ too come to think of it........( Neither here nor there in this argument), Yep I'm silly enough and cashed up enough to be able to afford it........... I ain't bitchin'

[dominik]

All the bitching and moaning in this thread is hilarious. Why don't you go and buy a Corolla, oh wait you'll be spending over $30k with extras for a crappy little 4 cylinder car :eek:I wouldn't call it bitching. We all like the cars otherwise we wouldn't be here. I'd just like to see a little more competition in the V8 arena and get a little more bang for my buck regardless of my budget... what's wrong with that? It's funny how so many Ford fans bash Holdens and vice versa yet without the other we wouldn't be getting much at all for our money. Anyway, you know who are bitching and responsible for this thread? The Americans who say our Monaro is bland and too expensive. I genuinely wouldn't really care if they were paying more for them than we do.

Finally, it's interesting how you mentioned the Corolla for $30K. You were being sarcastic and joking around but don't you think it says a lot about the non-competitive state of the market here when there are so few choices available in the category we're interested in that we can't just as easily say "well if you don't like the R8 Clubby go and buy an M3 instead?" More choices mate, it'd be a good thing.

[HRT]

All the bitching and moaning in this thread is hilarious. Why don't you go and buy a Corolla, oh wait you'll be spending over $30k with extras for a crappy little 4 cylinder car
But then again, many are willing to make the sacrifice to defect to other brands because they know the Holden are royally screwing them. These people ultimately make the sacrifices, and people like you end up reaping the benefits.
You should be greatful to say the least... :rolleyes:

[jon944lee]

we're missing out on a lot of creature comforts the monaro has. I would happily pay the extra money to get some of the stuff that the monaro has (memory seats, sunroof option, digital HVAC, etc...)

[dominik]

we're missing out on a lot of creature comforts the monaro has. I would happily pay the extra money to get some of the stuff that the monaro has (memory seats, sunroof option, digital HVAC, etc...) jon, the missing sunroof option is a letdown (couldn't the rest be sorted out for a couple of grand?), but I'm betting the 2005 Pontiac GTO will be a winner. At the moment we're comparing the '04 GTO to the new VZ Monaro but it'll be advantage USA in a few months, at least in terms of performance: along with the more aggressive new look you get the 295kw/400hp LS2 engine (which we don't get) and bigger brakes (which we do get). Someone else on this thread mentioned the new Ford Mustang as a GTO competitor... from what I've heard Mustangs are everywhere and I guess that takes a bit of the fun away from driving one. I'm pretty sure the GTO gets a lot more attention and is a nicer ride.

[LSX-438]

lets face it there is only 1 reason we buy the falcadores and it's not the build quality and/or refinement. in out market they represent excellent bang for buckage plus you can cart your family around in them. i shudder to think what we'd all be driving if there was no V8, we might be discussing flouro options and milo tins.

[Dacious]

Crossfire: 3.2L V6 (don't know much about it other than it accelerates well)
350Z: 3.5L V6 (not a bad package once you put a couple of hairdryers in it)
RX8: 1.3L rotary (lawnmower engine)

None of those are V8s.


There y'go, just kinda killed your own argument.

Crossfire - 69,900 with crap interior, poor ergonomics and recirculating ball steering-box!
RX8 - $57K for standard car - leather +$6K. service life???????? Longterm resale??????? Auto 30hp less than manual and anaemic. Poor fuel consumption for a little car.
350Z - $59K for the stock stripped lo-po version with little wheels. Crap interior, no rear seats, poor NVH and chewing front tyres - already showing up in numbers on the s/h market, not a good sign. Long-term value???? Aging prospects given it's buzzy, poorly finished in places and rattly new?????????


Monaro - $61K ($53K for mine) stock leather, fully-equipped amenities inside 10-speaker 6-stacker, room for 4 adults, fully equipped electrics, extremely tough external finish, solid underpinninngs, will still look new with moderate care in five years. Extremely low service costs @ $220 for a full service (if not tyres!). Solid resale and demand secondhand.

Not to mention IMO it doesn't look like a Dinky toy or mightmarish slot car and will comprehensively demolish any of the above in outright performance. They might be quicker in corners, but if they ain't in front on the straights it won't matter! Outsells the above combined 2:1.

I know which car I'd prefer to be driving when I go to Adelaide this week. Like I said, compared to what you can buy today, in Australia, considering what's available and for how much, I think the Monaro is maybe not a bargain, but certainly on the money.

[dominik]

There y'go, just kinda killed your own argument.I don't think so. If anything you just helped me highlight the problem. There's no competition for the Monaro. It's a great car and I agreed with you earlier that there's nothing else like it on the market for $60K. However... the fact there isn't anything else to choose from is the problem. That's why our American friends get our car for so much less because there is a lot more to choose from. I'm not the only one on this thread to cite this example: in the US where the BMW M3 Coupe costs less than the Monaro does here, is it still worth the current asking price? We need more choices, and then, only then, will we get more for our money.

[ABS]

The bitching here is pathetic, get over it.

[r8ls1]

The bitching here is pathetic, get over it.
No one asked you to be a part of it. What's pathetic is you butting into others peoples conversation just to say its pathetic. Get over it!

[r8ls1]

Someone in this country stands up for what they beleive in and people say its bitchin or pathetic.

This thread is titled perfectly. It is a Ripoff no matter what speeches people come in here with. The people trying to defend the pricing are sounding more and more like a laywer trying to get a client of a murder charge. Your honour, my client was addicted to gambling and drugs. WHO GIVES A F**K THEY COMMITED THE CRIME. Just like an american is driving your same new Monaro for under $35,000 aus dollars. and why? Because HOLDEN priced it that way. Not because of the space time continoum resulting in a refraction of light off venus.

Dacious go drive your $53,000 Monaro into Adelaide and feel proud, I for one like to see it rather than a 4wd or some import. And yes there is nothing better at that price range. Saying we are getting ripped off on pricing is not an attack on you, its an attack at Holden and our gov. Why do you have to justify your purchase to us. Sure we all buy one because there's nothing better for the price, does not mean we aren't allowed to say it's overpriced and it could be cheaper.

I have no more to say in this thread. It's just going around in circles.

[seldo]

Keep in mind folks that 18 months ago, our dollar was worth $0.55US and the story was fairly different. Complaining about the current prices and calling it a "markup" by Holden doesn't make any sense.
That's about the only informed and reasoned post in this whole thread.

[Dacious]

Dacious go drive your $53,000 Monaro into Adelaide and feel proud, I for one like to see it rather than a 4wd or some import. And yes there is nothing better at that price range. Saying we are getting ripped off on pricing is not an attack on you, its an attack at Holden and our gov. Why do you have to justify your purchase to us. Sure we all buy one because there's nothing better for the price, does not mean we aren't allowed to say it's overpriced and it could be cheaper.



Tried to contribute sensibly. Sorry if I offended you. Won't do so again.

[myles]

It was interesting reading all opinions.

R8ls1, I think you summed up the main point.

[JVX57L]

R8ls1 is right on the ball.
There are so many people trying to justify something that is not justifiable!
Why should we pay more when we SHOULD be paying less!
Anyone in business knows that if you can get away with selling something for a premium price then we will!
Why is'nt this thread posted in the HOLDEN forum?

Thats all i got to say..........

[HRT]

Monaro - $61K ($53K for mine) stock leather, fully-equipped amenities inside 10-speaker 6-stacker, room for 4 adults, fully equipped electrics, extremely tough external finish, solid underpinninngs, will still look new with moderate care in five years. Extremely low service costs @ $220 for a full service (if not tyres!). Solid resale and demand secondhand.
Most of your statements regarding the RX-8 and the 350Z are mere speculations, and not very educated ones either. Where are your sources? Sure the RX8 and the 350Z are not proven entities yet, but in due course i am sure that the JDM products will shine. Ten year old grey imports have shown this to be true.

Both RX8 and 350Z corner better than the Monaro. Driving is not about being fast in the straights. Overall balance is important as well, and both the Japs offer this important characteristic.
You never mentioned the innovative side of the RX8 with the rotary engine and the back doors. Both these options on the RX8 are a testimony to the R&D Mazda have put into their product, and it shows.

You then doubt the long term value of the RX8 and the 350Z. Redbook resale values cite identical figures for the RX8, 350Z and the Monaro. They are all listed at 65%. This alone demolishes half your purchase justification.

Sure the service costs are very low for Holden, but this forum itself is a testimony to Holden's crappy customer service, and also problems with the LS1 engines. I am sure i don't need to list these problems as every member is familiar with them anyway.

All three are great cars and serve their own specific purpose and appeal to a different demographic.

I am sure that if the M3 was offered for around $60K here, many Holden "enthusiasts" would defect to the German's.

[SSbaby]

HRT

Your nick is a paradox, as are your comments... unless it stands for 'Honda Racing Team'.

Rice on!

[Danv8]

Sure the service costs are very low for Holden, but this forum itself is a testimony to Holden's crappy customer service, and also problems with the LS1 engines. I am sure i don't need to list these problems as every member is familiar with them anyway.

Yup its true but then again if you go to every car enthusiasts forums be as from BMW, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes Benz etc etc you would most likely find similar problems and comments that customers have had. A BMW M3 brand new for $60 grand that would be neat though.

[HRT]

Your nick is a paradox, as are your comments... unless it stands for 'Honda Racing Team'.
You will just have to live with the nickname, SSBaby.
I didn't want it either, but i knew that a knickname like "HRT" would be in high demand, so i snapped it up just to piss other forum members off :D (Kidding).

Don't underestimate the "ricers". Plenty have done just that and suffered the consequences. It always comes back to bite them in the ass. :lol:

[Dacious]

Most of your statements regarding the RX-8 and the 350Z are mere speculations, and not very educated ones either. Where are your sources? Sure the RX8 and the 350Z are not proven entities yet, but in due course i am sure that the JDM products will shine. Ten year old grey imports have shown this to be true.

Both RX8 and 350Z corner better than the Monaro. Driving is not about being fast in the straights. Overall balance is important as well, and both the Japs offer this important characteristic.
You never mentioned the innovative side of the RX8 with the rotary engine and the back doors. Both these options on the RX8 are a testimony to the R&D Mazda have put into their product, and it shows.

You then doubt the long term value of the RX8 and the 350Z. Redbook resale values cite identical figures for the RX8, 350Z and the Monaro. They are all listed at 65%. This alone demolishes half your purchase justification.

Sure the service costs are very low for Holden, but this forum itself is a testimony to Holden's crappy customer service, and also problems with the LS1 engines. I am sure i don't need to list these problems as every member is familiar with them anyway.

All three are great cars and serve their own specific purpose and appeal to a different demographic.

I am sure that if the M3 was offered for around $60K here, many Holden "enthusiasts" would defect to the German's.

Last time I looked the 2004 M3 had a new price of $Oz142,000. I don't suggest you hold your breath on getting that for $60K :lol: :lol: :lol:

I used your Redbook value guide to create the following:

2004 models
Monaro CV8 Series III
New Trade-in Private Sale
59,950 42,200-47,500 46,600-52,700

RX8
New Trade-in Private Sale
56,670 42,600-47,500 46,000-52,600

350Z
New Trade-in Private Sale
59,990 41,400-45,950 45,000-50,990

I think based on that the standard garden variety Monaro is looking pretty good, as the RX has almost no track record as it's only just been intro'd. There's many more Monaros for sale, as many more have been sold. But they still hold value at least as good if not better.

I was wrong about the RX8's power, the auto is actually 144kw compared to 171 manual, so it's more like 27Kw or 40hp less. Even the RACV who gave it Car of the Year said the auto was whimpy, thirsty and nothing special. They reserved their praise for the manual.

2002 models
CV8 Series II
New Trade-in Private Sale
57,950 36,700-41,400 40,600-46,200

350Z
New Trade-in Private Sale
59,990 37,000-41,400 40,600-46,000

I will grant you the 350Z of 2002 has one marginally higher resale figure, but it also cost $2K more.

Even going on 47K top trade-in, low range private sale the '04 Munro holds 78% of new car price. 350Z is 75%


Just for $h!ts 'n' grins I checked out the '04 BMW M3

Trade in price guide* $108K - $119K
National average price - private sale* $118K - $132K
Price when new (RRP) $142K

Using 115K as an average of top trade-in vs lowest private it holds 80% of value.

I have nothing against the RX8 except I view it as an oddball. Like other rotary cars it will garner an enthusiasts' following. Longterm? Likely new engines every 100K or so to keep it sharp.

As for my sources re: the baby 350Z, Nissan already revised the front-end and suspenders, plus there's this:

"Apart from the severe lack of bootspace, further handicapped by its high floor (thanks to the space-saver spare tyre), there are many small stowage areas, including a generous lockable glovebox behind the passengers seat. The lower part of the door inners have pockets too small for a street directory-sized book, but then you could always splash out on the sat-nav."

"If you don't, in it's place is one of the worst small storage areas I've ever seen. It'll hold a couple of CDs standing upright or a bag of fizzy lollies, or maybe even a small camera, but its opening/closing mechanism is so flimsy it feels like it's going to snap off every time."

350Z report (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/xrt_350z.htm)

Or this:
"Some of the in-cabin ergonomics are a bit questionable and we were also disappointed by the lack of easy storage – nowhere good to throw your mobile phone, for example. There is, however, a lockable in-cabin enclosure suitable for a laptop and two smaller enclosures behind the seats plus a centre console and in-dash box. "

350Z convertible test (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2129/article.html)

At least those two tests were overall positive about the car - check this one. These people didn't like the upspec $65K version very much

350Z Track Test (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1839)

"It doesn't grip!

"Smooth roads, smooth curves... with a salesperson next to you, in a new tight car, something you're not pushing to eight-tenths, it feels great. But for a car with suspension that is that rough, it's wrong - it doesn't handle.

"It took me a while to get my head around an accurate description of how it handles. It handles like a utility. Like a V8 ute: big, initial turn-in understeer and that snap oversteer. Whether it's speed-induced or power-induced. Driving along smooth roads, through gentle switchbacks, the back-end is too rigid, too hard. You can feel it wanting to walk: the back end bounces...."

Not saying and never said the Monaro is an amazing car without fault, but no-one ever bagged it out like that! My point is, and has always been, that no-one is ripped off for the Munro. It's no bargain, but considering what's in it it is value.

Now, a man of your many years' driving experience and hours at the wheel of each of these cars will no doubt fully discount the above as not really important..... :booty:

[TigerMon]

The VY style interior is designed to work for right and left hand drive. I only just realised that when I looked at the pontiac site. This is the real change from the VT style - easier export (to US). btw we get ripped off on just about everything - music, petrol, electronic goods.

[smoke]

I am pissed off big time with holden, but would not give up my stato for a mx5,blah,blah,blah what ever those other vehicles are called. We do get ripped, but atleast could be talk V8s. A diet of rice is giving me the shits! Maybe something with a 5.7 litre Hemi!!!!! Magnums, i think?

[dominik]

Last time I looked the 2004 M3 had a new price of $Oz142,000. I don't suggest you hold your breath on getting that for $60K :lol: :lol: :lol:

...

Just for $h!ts 'n' grins I checked out the '04 BMW M3

Trade in price guide* $108K - $119K
National average price - private sale* $118K - $132K
Price when new (RRP) $142K

Using 115K as an average of top trade-in vs lowest private it holds 80% of value.
Dacious, I'm curious to know something... "$h!ts 'n' grins" aside, tell me why you wouldn't like the option of having a $60K M3 Coupe on the Aussie market? Along with all the praise it gets in all the Auto magazines here and abroad, it won "Best sports car over $57,000" by NRMA's panel of experts for 3 consecutive years (2001-2003), so it must have something going for it:

http://www.australiasbestcars.com.au/2003/sports_over.htm
http://www.australiasbestcars.com.au/2002/sports_over.htm
http://www.australiasbestcars.com.au/2001/sports_over.htm
http://www.mynrma.com.au/m3_bmw_m3.asp

Now I'm not holding my breath for an awesome vehicle like the M3 to ever be on the market here for anywhere near what American's pay for it and that's precisely why I can't bring myself to buy one (not when older E36 M3s continue to fetch more on the used car market than the E46 costs new over there.)

But it begs the question: how much better would our local sports cars become if something like the M3 was on the market at the higher HSV prices? With that kind of competition, Holden and HSV would be pushed to offer more in cars like the Monaro and GTO Coupe, and how would that be a bad thing? Horsepower and torque are not an issue anymore, however I'm sure a few people here would agree important aspects of the cars like handling could be improved and only competition will make them address those things. As it stands they seem content to take exterior styling cues from cars like the M3 (4 exhaust pipes, vent gills, etc.), instead of performance cues.

Anyway, you still haven't told me why you believe a little more competition would be a bad thing. It's not like Holden/HSV is going to pack up shop and disappear anytime soon given how many cars they sell every year.

[gmh308]

Dear team,

Have taken a look thru all the posts here an there does not seem to be a mention of GST anywhere. In Oz, all prices include GST, whereas in the US, prices exclude state and local sales tax, as they vary across the 50 odd states. Also no mention of Luxo Car Tax - another lovely tax office based barrier to entry in the Oz.

On a new (RRP) Monaro here at say 60k, this is USD$38k with the GST pulled out (1 AUD = 0.7 USD - the AUD may have scraped 80c recently, but lets be realistic and recognise this pricing was probably struck at around 70c, you cant get immediate flow on effects from exchange rate changes).

List in the US is USD$33k, so 5k diff.

And then the Monaro has real wheels, real air con, real lectric seats, and a real boot lid (you would pay to get that GTO spoiler pulled right) etc. Maybe not worth USD$5k, but not a huge gap anymores.

Also probably some government export incentive which subsidises the export of the Monaro to USA. So the apples arent far apart.

Lets compare rebated prices:

Have seen run out Monaro's at $48990 asking. Could push this slightly lower to get the deal done. Say AUD$48k (+ ORC's). Take out GST = 43.5k. We are down to USD$30.5k against rebated prices in the US at $29.5k (using Dominiks original numbers).

Maybe I am missing something (like math skills - could have made a mistakee) but USD$1k for the extra stuff we get ?? Great value. Its not as far apart as it looks on the surface.

Any other comments?

Have a good one.

[dominik]

Gmh, good post. When you look at it that way I agree it looks like a much better deal than at first glance, but what I've been trying to highlight is the fact that these cars are built right here and regardless of whether the dollar is worth $0.55 or $0.80US we should always be getting the BEST DEAL going since Aussie labor costs surely haven't changed and these are our cars.. Ours. If anything has changed as a result of the surging dollar this year it's Holden getting US parts like the LS1/LS2 engines for a lot less than they did a couple of years ago. So let's flip it around: Pontiac sources the GTO from Australia. How do they manage to turn a profit pricing the cars so competitively in the States with our dollar being so high?

[myles]

gmh308> there is still a difference in that the US is paying less for our cars, regardless of the amount the US is paying less, and they will see the LS2 in its version of the monaro long before Aus.

Soon...

US paying less for monaro with LS2
Aus paying more for monaro with LS1

[Dacious]

Dom, I get where you're coming from, and believe me, I would love nothing more than to get a car like the M3 for $60K. I would love it if Holden dealers were crammed with Monaros for $40K, as long as it happened before I bought mine!

As mentioned, what happens in North America is not what happens here. I bet GM NA is losing money on the GTO; by their own admission they fumbled the ball - they thought they'd be beating buyers off with a stick. Holden would be being paid a contract price to build them, which would be locked to that .055c exhange rate back in '02. I bet they're being paid in $US, too, which means theyr'e taking a kicking because the $Oz is now worth more. It's likely a lose-lose situation for Pontiac and Holden which hopefully they can learn from and turn around with the '05s.

I am not down on the 350Z and RX8, or even the Crossfire. I am merely trying to point out that what Holden gives you for the same or lower price is at least equal, if not arguably superior and will hold its' value against them. We have a tendency to kick our local makers and make them jump through more hoops than international manufacturerers - 'It's Australian, so it must be no good'.


When compared to more expensive cars, like the Kompressor 2 litre convertible I did laps of Phillip Island in, the Monaro looks like good value for money and frankly makes some of them look overpriced, like the 530I which I thought was like a dead fish to drive. The M3, which I have been driven in for a lap of Phillip Island is a very sharp scalpel - but you'd be amazed to find how uncomfortable and noisy they are at normal speeds on less than perfect roads. At high speeds they are like a racing car. In a straightline with the hyper-complicated gearbox it'd beat a stock Monaro - just, but have way more problems with a Clubby R8 or GTO.

[seldo]

Dear team,

Have taken a look thru all the posts here an there does not seem to be a mention of GST anywhere. In Oz, all prices include GST, whereas in the US, prices exclude state and local sales tax, as they vary across the 50 odd states. Also no mention of Luxo Car Tax - another lovely tax office based barrier to entry in the Oz.

On a new (RRP) Monaro here at say 60k, this is USD$38k with the GST pulled out (1 AUD = 0.7 USD - the AUD may have scraped 80c recently, but lets be realistic and recognise this pricing was probably struck at around 70c, you cant get immediate flow on effects from exchange rate changes).

List in the US is USD$33k, so 5k diff.

And then the Monaro has real wheels, real air con, real lectric seats, and a real boot lid (you would pay to get that GTO spoiler pulled right) etc. Maybe not worth USD$5k, but not a huge gap anymores.

Also probably some government export incentive which subsidises the export of the Monaro to USA. So the apples arent far apart.

Lets compare rebated prices:

Have seen run out Monaro's at $48990 asking. Could push this slightly lower to get the deal done. Say AUD$48k (+ ORC's). Take out GST = 43.5k. We are down to USD$30.5k against rebated prices in the US at $29.5k (using Dominiks original numbers).

Maybe I am missing something (like math skills - could have made a mistakee) but USD$1k for the extra stuff we get ?? Great value. Its not as far apart as it looks on the surface.

Any other comments?

Have a good one.

Stop being so damn reasoned and logical. You've spoiled all these blokes' ill-informed rantings. ;)

[dominik]

Dom, I get where you're coming from, and believe me, I would love nothing more than to get a car like the M3 for $60K. I would love it if Holden dealers were crammed with Monaros for $40K, as long as it happened before I bought mine! Dacious, I'm glad we're on the same page.

You're probably right about the GTO but I have a feeling the 2005 model will turn a few heads and drum up more interest.


We have a tendency to kick our local makers and make them jump through more hoops than international manufacturerers - 'It's Australian, so it must be no good'. I've got a few friends who have flat out said they could never justify paying more than $50K for a Holden (HSVs included) but like you I think we have a quality product, however there's always room for improvement. We might have made them jump through a few more hoops as you put it but I think that competitive kick in the butt is what's brought us a winner like the Monaro in the first place. Years ago Ford fans were crying out for a product like the BA XR6T and the F6 and now they've got them. If you don't ask, you don't get.


The M3, which I have been driven in for a lap of Phillip Island is a very sharp scalpel - but you'd be amazed to find how uncomfortable and noisy they are at normal speeds on less than perfect roads. At high speeds they are like a racing car. In a straightline with the hyper-complicated gearbox it'd beat a stock Monaro - just, but have way more problems with a Clubby R8 or GTO.Was it a CSL? Consider me envious. I'd love to go for a rip around a track in one :) Cornering, braking, and traction in the wet is outstanding, but the daily ride is probably a little rough at times because of that firm suspension. Some of us prefer a quieter ride, and some of us don't mind feeling more of the road--each to his own. The STi has to take the cake in this department but it's obviously not for everyone. As for the M3, while I'm a big fan of the V8s, there's something about that screaming six that is music to my ears and turns my head every damn time.

[myles]

2005 GTOs lined up and waiting in Port Adelaide ready to be shipped to the US

2005 GTO ready to be shipped (click) (http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/picsearch.cgi?page=1&modl=All&year=2005&cond=All&excl=All&incl=All&rfcl=All&roof=All&ownr=All&emai=All&loca=All&vinn=All&post=All&sett=All&show=All&optn=tape&comm=&search=Search&page=1)

2005 GTO features

http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2005-Pontiac-GTO.htm

Already built with the LS2 and for less $$, can I head on down to the Port Adelaide wharf and buy one? ;) :p

[dominik]

2005 GTOs lined up and waiting in Port Adelaide ready to be shipped to the US

...

Already built with the LS2 and for less $$, can I head on down to the Port Adelaide wharf and buy one? ;) :pIt feels strange seeing those photos knowing the LS2s are in them, I guess because we'll have to wait a while for the VE. To be fair, we can drive an LS2 powered GTO Coupe right now but it's just shy of 80 big ones. It looks awesome though.

Let's see, we've got two takers in Brisbane. Who else would like to bid on one before it leaves the wharf? :)

[Dacious]

Was it a CSL? Consider me envious. I'd love to go for a rip around a track in one :) Cornering, braking, and traction in the wet is outstanding, but the daily ride is probably a little rough at times because of that firm suspension.

Can't say - it was a couple years ago, although they have one every year as the course car for the bike GP which I work at. I remember them saying there were less than ten in Oz. The brakes would have eyeballs out on stalks! This year they had a blue one with four pipes which sounded like a jet fighter everytime it went out the pit exit.

Skip Taylor gets to drive lots of these things - he is on his third XR8. He says the BW is a quick track car but not so nice away from it at legal speeds, which is understandable given its' focus. He can lap the Island in the M3 quick enough to qualify in a V8 Supercar field. I was more scared with him going through turn one than I am riding a bike through there with a knee down!

Skip also said that, while different, all the Oz V8s are great cars when you consider the dollars - if money is no object you're obviously going to own a more exclusive vehicle.

As far as the LS2 in the '05 GTO, it obviously needs some form of emergency surgery if GM is to save it until the new US-made one arrives for '07. If the car had sold in '04 I reckon they'd be getting LS1s. Plus it won't sell at the prices the '04s are going at unless there's a heap left this time next year.

[dominik]

Can't say - it was a couple years ago, although they have one every year as the course car for the bike GP which I work at. I remember them saying there were less than ten in Oz. The brakes would have eyeballs out on stalks! This year they had a blue one with four pipes which sounded like a jet fighter everytime it went out the pit exit. Awesome. It was definitely an M3 CSL which is set up more as a race car so it would have knocked you around a little more. They used a lot of carbon-fibre and threw out some luxuries to reduce the overall weight of the car to gain more HP. The braking capability you mentioned is pretty special: 100-0 inside 30 meters. The small handful they brought out here were all spoken for long before they touched down. I saw one down the road being sold "used" (it'd probably done under 2Ks) at a dealer but unlike you I've never been lucky enough to cruise around in one and admit I can't afford one either :)

I see where you're coming from on our V8s being in a niche of their own--they're an all-round solid package. The Americans definitely put the emphasis on performance over luxury in a lot of their V8/V10 cars. Have you ever seen one of those twin-turbo V10 Vipers tuned by Hennessey? 800hp+ with a reported 2.6sec 0-100 time. Scary stuff. I like having power on tap but I don't know many people that can handle that kind of power :)

[CorporateJet]

I believe that there is one thing we are forgetting to ask ourselves. How much do the Germans pay for their own precious M3?? Well according to the BMW website EURO 55,100 (including their 16% tax) which equals = AUD~$95000. Now considering the additional cost of import tariffs, freight, marketing, sales staff etc (as previous mentioned by a member) to our great country, and our price of $142k doesn't look too bad (still a rip off though!). I believe the pricing of the M3 should be around $100-$110k. Oh, and considering that price of $142k includes GST of close to $13k means the price is actually $129k.

At the end of the day when you factory in import tariffs, GST, Luxury Car Tax, Registration and Stamp Duty, I reckon the Governments makes more money than BMW does!!

The ramifications of enormous price changes in something like the M3 are huge. If you could easily afford an M3 (say at $60k) with its class, excellent build quality, features, great performance and considered the pinnacle of sports cars, how much would you expect to pay for your humble Commodore Exec or Falcon? $15k?? And something like an Echo or an Accent for $5k?? It's not going to happen.

Yes, the yanks get a better deal than anyone in the world. There is nothing you or I can do about it. The US auto market is massive and ultra competitive. It is for this reason they get great pricing. IMO the 99% of products that the yanks get is crap and wouldn't buy one in a pink fit!

Give me a factory V8 twin turbo LS1 or Barra made here in the greatest country in the world and i'll pick it everytime over a uber coupe. Don't get me wrong I'd own an M3 if I had the money. :D

[Bully]

All it comes down to is volumes. GM sell more cars in the US in 1 month than Holden does in a year in Australia- with volumes like that, they can afford to have much lower margins.
Stop worrying about it, unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it, just enjoy what we have, it could be alot worse!!!!

[dominik]

Well according to the BMW website EURO 55,100 (including their 16% tax) which equals = AUD~$95000. Now considering the additional cost of import tariffs, freight, marketing, sales staff etc (as previous mentioned by a member) to our great country, and our price of $142k doesn't look too bad (still a rip off though!). I believe the pricing of the M3 should be around $100-$110k.

...

At the end of the day when you factory in import tariffs, GST, Luxury Car Tax, Registration and Stamp Duty, I reckon the Governments makes more money than BMW does!!

...

Give me a factory V8 twin turbo LS1 or Barra made here in the greatest country in the world and i'll pick it everytime over a uber coupe. Don't get me wrong I'd own an M3 if I had the money. :DAnother great post. A $100K M3 Coupe sounds fair to me. New, that would position it in the GTS range. Used, a couple of years old, that would put it in R8/GTO territory. New Monaros and Clubbies would surely continue to sell well. I think that would be perfect. Anyone else agree? In other words, Holden would feel a little heat and in turn spend more money on R&D and most likely give us more for our money, yet it wouldn't squeeze them too hard which would mean the end of some products perhaps.

Anyway, I hope nothing I've said has been interpreted as anti-Holden/Ford. If anything I was just sticking up for us, the little guys Down Under in the grand scheme of things--I want us to always get a fair deal, especially with our own cars regardless of where the dollar sits or how competitive markets are overseas. On a positive note: I do think we're lucky that we've got a solid range of local cars and can help ourselves to a whole stack of affordable, tried-and-tested aftermarket bits and pieces that have been used for the last 6 years or so to reliably tune Corvettes, Trans-ams, Camaros, etc. That's what's so great about the LS1. Stock, we get solid performance and as we all know it doesn't take much to bring things up a notch.


Stop worrying about it, unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it, just enjoy what we have, it could be alot worse!!!! Point taken. I agree, we've never had it so good.

[r8ls1]

Stop worrying about it, unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it, just enjoy what we have, it could be alot worse!!!!

Well said. We all need to put things into perspective now and again. Of course this is how it is and its not going to change any time soon. And yes its Gov's doing more than Holden, I should of made that more clear in my earler posts.

Bottom line, enjoy it while we can!!!

[myles]

Amen!! ;) :p

[FastMoFoGTO]

Hi, I guess I'm the Minority here, but I am an American, I live in New York. I just purchased a Black/Black 04 GTO. I absolutely love this car, from the "better" quality interior to the Vette Z06 6-speed, and the 350 HP Vette engine. This is the car I've been waiting for. The build quality is only comparable to few current american cars, the Corvette for one, and uhhh, well that's all I can think of right now, haahaa. :D
The sticker price over here for the 04 GTO's is 33,200 plus tax. I'm sorry to say that they sell for much lower. The reasoning is that the competition for this market sector is huge. Also, the Gto, which was started in 1964 to around 1973 appealed to a die-hard muscle individual. That individual wants to re-kindle his/her glory days of the 60's and early 70's with a retro-looking vehicle. This Gto is really too European looking for this group, unlike the shoddily prepared 05 mustang which looks retro, AND appeals to the younger generation as well. The current selling price is lower then you think, from $33,200 - 3200(dealer incentive) and then - GMAC factory discount(if you finance with them for 2.9% for 5 years(60 months). So in actuality, I paid 26,500 plus 8.75% sales tax, and the 2.9 for 5 years.
Most people who bought the 04 Gto, love them, and can't say enough about them, so please don't hate us, we're not all bad or like our silly president, whom half our country voted against. Any other questions, you can email me direct at: NiccusPizza@optonline.net. I love this site, as you have so much passion for your cars and create such diverse and interesting conversations.
By the way, the front of our GTO's look shite compared to your Monaro's or HSV.! So, lucky you!
Jordan