Under 26 = No LS1

[Glenn@Autowerks]

This was in todays paper, will get alot upset I suspect..

Young drivers face fast car ban

By TONY VERMEER and BEN JOHNSON

November 28, 2004

UNDER 26-year-olds could be banned from driving hundreds of models of powerful cars under a proposal expected to be considered by the NSW Government.

The Write Up in the Tele (http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=2300080)

[Drizt]

fewwwww its only new south wales ..... so who cares :P

[Gareth@Willall]

I'm 24 and it would be a cold day in hell to make me give up my LS1 and my Aussie 8! :mad: Lucky i'm in SA :D

Gareth

[vy2clubby]

This just says it all

If the law was changed, one of those affected would be 19-year-old P-plater Steven Bolder, an apprentice carpenter who is paying off a $35,000 V6 Holden ute.

He admits to occasionally exceeding the speed limit but disagrees with proposed vehicle bans.

"It's a heaps bad idea – shocking!" he said.

"I got it up to 180 going down to the snow, but I never drive silly," said the Maroubra local.

However, Mr Bolder admitted the Government might be doing him a favour by introducing bans.

"They could be saving me," he said

What a spastic.

[Glenn@Autowerks]

This just says it all

If the law was changed, one of those affected would be 19-year-old P-plater Steven Bolder, an apprentice carpenter who is paying off a $35,000 V6 Holden ute.

He admits to occasionally exceeding the speed limit but disagrees with proposed vehicle bans.

"It's a heaps bad idea – shocking!" he said.

"I got it up to 180 going down to the snow, but I never drive silly," said the Maroubra local.

However, Mr Bolder admitted the Government might be doing him a favour by introducing bans.

"They could be saving me," he said

What a spastic.

Coppers should sent him a ticket for quoting that in a national news paper, I think they actually can cause he admitted it !! Automatic loss of license and possible goal too....

[Hammer]

they got bucklys getting my ls1 off me... over my dead F**King body, if you have the cash to afford one they cannot stop you under the equal rights& fair trading acts

[strife]

The NZ restricted license provisions are pretty interesting not sure on there durations though seem a bit short


You can drive on your own, but not between 10pm and 5am. Between these times you must have a supervisor in the front passenger seat who holds and has held a full car licence for at least two years.

If you sat the test in an automatic vehicle, your licence will say that you can only drive automatic vehicles.

You must not carry passengers unless you have a supervisor with you. The only passengers you can carry without a supervisor are:

your spouse (or person you live with as if you were married)
children who live with you and who are under your or your spouse’s care (you or your spouse support them financially)
relatives who live with you and who are on a social security benefit (domestic purposes, widow’s, invalid’s, unemployment or sickness), or
someone you look after as their primary care-giver.

[NefariousVX]

i know if they bring that in here ill be throwing the business in and moving back to qld! i hate it here anyway, im not giving up the ss, i only just got it,, **** them

[mmciau]

Bring it on!!!!

Then all those snotty nosed little boys and girls in blue who are sent out by their commanders to write infringement tickets will be out of the "powerful fleet" cars and pounding the beat!!! :D

Actually, the government would rue the day.

If ever there was a voting block that could change a government for ever it would a group of voters aged 18-25 who had been denied their say and actions in society.

Mike

[Rod]

abs stats (http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/b06660592430724fca2568b5007b8619/b52c3903d894336dca2568a9001393c1/Body/1.2572!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif)

the 20-24 demographic is shrinking and the trend appears to be going to continue for the next 20 years since the younger age groups get smaller as the age decreases.
edit: forgot to mention my point :rolleyes:

the politicians could marginilise this age group as it is a minority and make an example of them so they APPEAR to be doing something.

[shawie]

personally i think its is a good idea maybe not to the age of 26
but mabye restrict P platers. i know when i wanted a bike licence i couldnt get anything lager than a 250cc i know this law has changed now to if you have held a open licence for 3 years you can get and size bike.
but with the realitivly cheap high perfromace imports and some locally built cars putting restrictions on younger drivers isnt that silly IMO. like i said 26 is a bit excessive..but never the less its a good idea.

[paul05]

As a father of a 17 year old p plate driver,may be a good idea ,but if i was told this at that age,go get f**ked would have been my answer.
I think 19 year old's and under maybe,if there's no more incidents involving P platers in the next few weeks the media and government will forget and move on to something or someone else.

[COOKIE!]

If im correct in victoria this alredy applies to our p platers no matter what age or is it a similer law???
And for the record it is NEVER inforced and more than likely never will.

[matts]

If im correct in victoria this alredy applies to our p platers no matter what age or is it a similer law???
And for the record it is NEVER inforced and more than likely never will.

Correct on both counts! P Plate restrictions apply in Vic, no passanger restrictions apply unless you lose your licence within 12 months of aquiring it.

[F6 Hoon]

The NZ restricted license provisions are pretty interesting not sure on there durations though seem a bit short


You can drive on your own, but not between 10pm and 5am. Between these times you must have a supervisor in the front passenger seat who holds and has held a full car licence for at least two years.

If you sat the test in an automatic vehicle, your licence will say that you can only drive automatic vehicles.

You must not carry passengers unless you have a supervisor with you. The only passengers you can carry without a supervisor are:

your spouse (or person you live with as if you were married)
children who live with you and who are under your or your spouse’s care (you or your spouse support them financially)
relatives who live with you and who are on a social security benefit (domestic purposes, widow’s, invalid’s, unemployment or sickness), or
someone you look after as their primary care-giver.

Who's to say the supervisor is a good driver. It's usually the case that learner drivers pickup bad habits from their teachers. In most cases kids learn from their parents.

I doubt these laws will come into force. The federal government is most likely to intervene in matters like this; the states have proved they are unable to curb motor vehicle fatalities involving young drivers.

What is one to do about the cop who got killed in WA over the weekend? How does one legislate against a traffic officer doing a U-Turn on a busy Highway infront of an oncoming 4WD? Maybe he shouldn't have bothered trying to catch the motorist who may have only been doing 5 - 10km/h over the speed limit :idea:

[Kirium]

Carl Scully and Bob Carr can go get fu€ked if they think they're giong to tell me what I can and can't drive... happy to send me off to the persian gulf to a warzone, but can't drive the car i want to?? what a load of shit... :rolleyes:

the fact i've done defensive driving courses counts for nothing with these stupid €unts... infact, i'm probably more of a risk, because i'm now overconfident....

I fcuking hate what this country is becoming... it's a joke

[brujeria]

It's unrealistic to think that by restricting power outputs of cars you are going to reduce the road toll for under 26 year olds. It all comes down to experience, I've known plenty of people who have crashed 4 cylinder hatches (including a 1.3 litre Charade). It's this logic of "oh well if they drive a fast car they are more likely to crash" that shows how little they actually think about these issues. Sure a car with a truckload of torque may be harder to control in the wet but you can speed in anything from an SS commodore to a Daewoo Matiz. If not allowing high power outputs for young drivers will curb death rates for them, surely their next step would be everybody else!? (scary thought, let's hope the future isn't all poorly powered 3 cylinder hybrids.)

[Wazza]

I dont think they've really thought this through properly........Can just imagine if it were to happen, there would be a lot of angry (and very well screwed over) <26 yr olds out there wanting blood.

I know it'd screw me around bigtime - i own 2 V8s that i probably wouldnt be allowed to own under the new laws, and factor in that the market for V8s would shring bigtime if you have to be over 26 to drive 1, they'd devalue shitloads. The market for small econo boxes would skyrocket making prices go up also......All up i rekon id stand to lose close to $10k if they were to force me to sell my cars..........Id rather take the risk of getting caught and getting fined thanks. How many $200 or so fines would i need to get to match the $$ id stand to lose by selling up???

Also if theyre talking about not even being able to drive a 6cyl commo/falcon until your 26..... hey, there goes my job, seing as i need a commo sized car to fit all my work shit in......

[cutter bob]

they can go get f%&ked, all i can say is "catch me" because i woundn't give my car up on sheer principle!!!!

so to cut a long story short .. bob carr can stick this idea right back up his ass, from where it came from

[dominik]

I agree, they're going too far and grasping at straws. First the 130kph electronic limit, now this.

Both the media and government jumped on the story regarding the Skyline GTR accident near Gosford last weekend (which is also mentioned in the linked article) however they didn't put much emphasis on the fact the driver was basically joyriding in his father's car so it would have made little difference if that proposed law had already been in place.

Let's see, they're saying the WRX is on the 'blacklist' and its turbo flat4 puts out about as much power as a Toyota Avalon, acceleration aside. Is the government saying an Avalon going 130kph driven by a P-Plater is a much safer vehicle? Last I checked they don't put awd, sports suspension, Brembos, and high grip Potenzas on Avalons.

[Redhot_57]

What do you expect from a man who doesnt even drive himself? Yep, Bob Carr has never held a drivers licence.. I think generalising all young drivers as stupid is dangerous, having said that it annoys me no end to see P platers ripping past traffic in turbo imports etc... Something needs to be done for sure.

I dont think such a plan would have the huge road toll reduction everyone is expecting, but thanks to the media, the government is under increasing pressure to do something. At the end of the day, you will never change human behaviour. If someone decides to drive like a d***head, they will, whether its in a 200SX or a 4 cyl Camry. There will always be irresponsible immature idiots out there, such as the 19 yr old in sunday's paper.

As for you comments Mike, "snotty nosed boys and girls in blue sent out to write infringements". Have you been booked recently, or are you always so objective?? I know a couple of coppers and thank God theyre out there, I wouldnt want to drive on roads that werent policed.

[BIG T]

Where did these beauracrat spin doctors get this age figure for 26?

Is it just me, or are these age limit laws slowly creeping up. I could remember that the magical age until you were considered less of a risk to insurance companies was 21, now its 25.

Now this stupid law to ban high powered cars for any one under 26!!

Whats going to happen in 10 years, no high powered cars for any male under 35?

NSW should have a power to weight ratio limit on P platers, regardless of age. Thats it. I was driving around in a VL on my Ps, aint no big deal. Have to learn to crawl before you can walk.

[GEN III]

What would the Aussie car manufactures think of this? I would think they would be dead set against it. Up to 26 years is way too harsh. Maybe up to 18yrs is acceptable if it was ever to ever be implemented.

First it will be NSW then QLD then the whole lot.

You better not do it Beetie I know where you live, and I like the look of that front lawn". :rolleyes:

[cutter bob]

What do you expect from a man who doesnt even drive himself? Yep, Bob Carr has never held a drivers licence..


:lol: :lol: :lol:

now i see where this problems coming from..... i always just through it was because he was a F%&KEN idiot , but now i know its not just that


You better not do it Beetie I know where you live, and I like the look of that front lawn".

and i can find out there u live carr

[Ryzz]

Ok, a sensible response here.

In my honest opninion, i cant see this happening very easily. Before such a law can be introducted a lot of thought is going to have to go into what every under 26yr old would do with the current "To Powerful" style of car.

Put it this way. If my GTS was considered to be To Powerful, then i would be forced to sell it. I currently owe 80% of the purchase price of this car still. However this is where it gets interesting. All of a sudden the potential buyers audience for such a car has all but disappered because they would not be allowed to drive such a car. So how am i going to sell it??

Before i can buy a "Acceptable Power Output" car i would need to sell my GTS. So is the government going to compensate the current owners of such cars due to the financial situation they are going to end up in??

In addition to this, i personally (and i dont have the raw data to support this) believe a larger car (ie Commodore/Falcon/4WD/Etc) to be much safer in a crash than a little lancer or other small 4 cylinder car. (Heck dont forget that the car that was involded in latest accident was a small lancer and look at it now!!!)
http://www.sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,399447,00.jpg

Thirdly, Imagine all the jobs that woudl be lost and the potential impact this could have on the economy. All of a sudden you have a lot of people who's line of business involves high performance cars of some description. All of a sudden this market is going to dry up = businesses closing down, people being layed off, etc

At the end of the day, the ONLY way to address this problem is in school. Make proper driver education part of the school circuliam. Educate people on the PHYSICS of cars. Educate them on acceleration vs stopping. About wet weather and how it affects the stability of the car, the stopping distances, etc.

If people understand what is going on, know how to get themselves out of these problems, and hopefully prevent themselves getting into the situations in the first place, then we stand a chance of fixing the problem.

My personal belief is that the only ban should be on inexperiences P plate drivers, such as that in Victoria. Once you have a few years driving around in a small car that doesnt go fast, have a good understanding of driving and the above mentioned concepts. However when they first step into a high power vechicle there could be repeat incidents of what is happening now.

Just my thoughts. I recommend we list such ideas and present them to the relevant parties in the government as weight against such silly ideas.

[v8 ute]

(Heck dont forget that the car that was involded in latest accident was a small lancer and look at it now!!!)
http://www.sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,399447,00.jpg



Yeh but, that's a high performance car... note the spoiler :p

[Devil CV8]

the driver was basically joyriding in his father's car so it would have made little difference if that proposed law had already been in place.
It would have made a big difference,,, if a P plater wasn't allowed to drive the car, then he/she can't crash it.

For those that say they don't enforce the power/weight law in victoria, or that the penalties are nothing,, what would be the reaction to large fine and loss of license, would you risk that just to drive a high powered car..

[Kirium]

It would have made a big difference,,, if a P plater wasn't allowed to drive the car, then he/she can't crash it.

His father had told him he wasn't to drive it.... but he still did and still crashed it... wouldn't have made a pinch of shit of difference if it had been legislation or not...

it's just a BS knee-jerk reaction...

[Bumfluff]

just sounds like another 'band-aid' approach by the government instead of addressing the real issue (cue Ryzz's comment about compulsory driver ed. in schools). I'm 23, have been driving for 4 years and have just bought myself a Pontiac Trans-Am (with a 350 5.7ltr chev in it :) ). Would this mean that even though I've held a full license for 3 years and have only had one low range speeding fine that I would have to sell it? Sure, it may make sense to make the rule apply for 'P' platers so that they can get experience in driving/handling cars before stepping into high performance cars but the government needs to remember it still won't stop some people from driving low performance sh*tboxes at dangerous speeds. They need to be educated about different driving conditions.

Cheers

Jase

p.s. If I were still a P plater I would be up in arms about this too folks

[Devil CV8]

His father had told him he wasn't to drive it.... but he still did and still crashed it... wouldn't have made a pinch of shit of difference if it had been legislation or not...

it's just a BS knee-jerk reaction...Sorry, don't agree. There are less drunk drivers on the road due to the severe penalties, so that shows that severe penalies work. Yes, there are still some who scoff at the law and with those people the penalties need to be harsher.

[Kirium]

I think that there is the illusion of less drunk drivers on the road because less people are being randomly tested... more resources are being thrown at speed enforcement... statistics can be made to say anything... we all know that...

The thing that gets most of us is the rediculous age. 26 is an absolute joke.

We all know the answer isn't piss-weak measures like this... people will still kill themselves in cars, wether it's a Skoda or a Skyline, if they want to be dickheads when driving...

We also know that the true answer is compulsory advanced defensive driving courses, better roads, better education at younger ages... as cars have become safer, politicians have become dumber...

[carfreakxr6]

Banning HP cars will do nothing. Doesnt matter what you drive, if you cant drive you will always have the potential to crash it. Ive seen heaps of little cars on the news wrapped around trees, such as a old ford laser! I mean its a gutless piece of junk yet they still managed to crash it..

But im glad i dont live in QLD. Im planning on getting a vxss soon :D and i sure as hell arnt gonna be told what i can and cant drive!

[M&Ms]

I've been in a '79 Datsun 200B that's been able to see 160 km/h... Now why isn't the government gonna ban all cars with over 70 kW ?? It just don't make sense... isn't a datsun deadly at those speeds?
My point" ANY OLD SHIT BOX CAN BE MADE TO GO FAST... THESE PRICKS WANNA BRING US ALL BACK TO THE STONE AGE DRIVING CARS WITH NO CRUMPLE ZONES, NO AIRBAGS, NO ABS, NO T/C ETC ETC... AND ARE GONNA TELL US THEY ARE SAFER TO DRIVE!!!! Reality check Mr Carr.... You gotta first understand the problem, then you have to try fix it.. Not the other way round. :mad:

[VZLAD]

diff. between your shitbox LMAO sorrry and a V8 is how long does it take for your car to get to that speed ??? You would have to be on a country road to get a good run up lol...

[Holden Nut]

"I got it up to 180 going down to the snow, but I never drive silly," said the Maroubra local.

And I bet he wonders why they are considering such schemes :bash:

[dominik]

I've been in a '79 Datsun 200B that's been able to see 160 km/h... Now why isn't the government gonna ban all cars with over 70 kW ?? It just don't make sense... isn't a datsun deadly at those speeds?
My point" ANY OLD SHIT BOX CAN BE MADE TO GO FAST... THESE PRICKS WANNA BRING US ALL BACK TO THE STONE AGE DRIVING CARS WITH NO CRUMPLE ZONES, NO AIRBAGS, NO ABS, NO T/C ETC ETC... AND ARE GONNA TELL US THEY ARE SAFER TO DRIVE!!!! Reality check Mr Carr.... You gotta first understand the problem, then you have to try fix it.. Not the other way round. :mad: Exactly. Just because a car has a smaller engine, it doesn't mean the thing is any safer. In the Skyline GTR example Carr and Co. keep citing, we're talking about a vehicle that obviously could accelerate a heck of a lot faster than a '79 Datsun (and just about everything else on the road) but in the hands of a responsible and experienced driver its 4wd and 4-wheel steering, high performance brakes, suspension, tyres, etc. made for a much safer ride.

A good point was raised on another thread about some cars being a lot more dangerous and unstable inside the speed limit than the performance cars we're talking about. I mean, what about the guy in the riced up Lancer pretending it's a real Evo and driving like Tommi Makinen on coke? His car wouldn't make Carr's proposed blacklist yet surely there's an even greater chance of him losing control at higher speeds in a vehicle that wasn't built to go over the speed limit?

The bottom line is it comes down to driver education... however education costs money and it sounds like the government would like to end this debate on the cheap.

[strife]

Scully releases the government discussion paper today

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=2302482

looks very similar to the NZ system

I see the focus is on P platers under 26 not just under 26 year olds

P-plate motorists under 26 will be banned from driving high-powered and heavy vehicles, while P1 holders – or those to have incurred demerit points – will be restricted to one passenger at a time.

Doubling the mandatory period of supervised driving for Learner drivers from 50 hours to 100 hours

Doubling the minimum time spent on L plates to 12 months, and increasing the Provisional Licence age to 18

Improving the Driving Ability Road Test (from Ls to Ps) with a greater focus on hazard perception and safe driving practices

Modifying the demerit point system for Provisional drivers including suspending licences if they exceed their demerit points

A night driving restriction between 10pm and 5am for P1 holders under 26, however exemptions would be available if the driver is heading to and from work, study or for a medical emergency

[dominik]

"A night driving restriction between 10pm and 5am for P1 holders under 26, however exemptions would be available if the driver is heading to and from work, study or for a medical emergency."

I wonder if a late night run for a couple of Big Macs would get an exemption?

I just saw a news report on Today a few minutes ago once again citing the Skyline GTR accident along with the terrible images. Why do they keep omitting the detail that the "high powered car" was registered to the driver's father and that he wasn't allowed to be driving it in the first place? So far IMHO the best suggestion to have been raised in these reports is teaching "driver education" at school.

[VYBerlinaV8]

I support driving restrictions for younger drivers, but I think that a lot more analysis and thought is needed to come up with some workable arrangement.

Instead....this is just a though but how about the state governments tackle this problem by implementing a policy of having Police patrol known trouble spots. I think it might make people think twice if it was announced an additional 250 patrol cars to be deployed across the state, with the sole purpose of patroling roads to ensure retard behaviour is caught. And I don't mean sitting behind a tree with radar, but pulling over and booking people who drive below the limit in the right hand lane, who tailgate, who fail to indicate, and who drive at high speed through school zones - you know, the sort of morons that pi$$ us all off every day but never seem to get caught.

The idea would be that at least the general public would be more protected from stupid driving.

As far as P-Platers go, statistics indicate that a significant number of them drive dangerously with sometimes disastrous results, and I think they will choose to do that regardless of the law. Driver education, and opportunity for 'playing' on closed circuits is the only way to address that aspect, methinks.

[muzza]

There's a lot of worried posts about "they're not taking my v8 off me etc" - AFAIK that isn't proposed (ie: retrospective new laws), just that the law MAY be changed from a certain date onwards, then in around 3 years there would be no under XX year olds driving certain vehicles.

I support power/weight limitations for P platers, similar to what bikers have for 3 years after gaining your P licence, then derestricted after that provided they have behaved on the road. I think it will reduce the temptation a bit to use it for hooning, dragging, showing off etc. I dont think it's speeding per se, but acceleration and being able to acheive higher speeds quickly that get inexperienced drivers into the shit faster than they think.

It's all very well saying a WRX has the same power as an Avalon, but the WRX is so much safer because of brakes handling etc, well that's just bullshit.
It is completely fallacious to suggest a P plater would be safer in one or the other because ultimately if they are doing some risky driving, they will push any car to where they feel a bit unsafe for the thrill - the better the car, the higher the limit, the bigger the hit if it all comes unstuck.

[dominik]

It's all very well saying a WRX has the same power as an Avalon, but the WRX is so much safer because of brakes handling etc, well that's just bullshit. It is completely fallacious to suggest a P plater would be safer in one or the other because ultimately if they are doing some risky driving, they will push any car to where they feel a bit unsafe for the thrill - the better the car, the higher the limit, the bigger the hit if it all comes unstuck. Hence the need for better education, starting at high school right through to defensive driving courses. My point--and I still stand by it--was that an Avalon going above the speed limit is surely more unsafe in terms of handling, the way it responds, the way it slows down, etc., compared to the WRX which by all rights is a technological marvel. Of course having greater acceleration at the driver's disposal will at times make the car more dangerous, but it all comes down to education and being responsible: like we discussed, an old '79 Datsun is still a coffin on wheels when driven recklessly.

[dominik]

Let's face it, just about anything they put a spoiler on these days (which is practically every new car) seems to be an invitation to a lot of young drivers to pretend they are Michael Schumacher. I've lost count of how many "Carr-compliant" cars I've seen from beat up old Civics to Lancers to Korean bubblecars that come screaming onto the freeway at 130kph+, weave around without indicating, and cruise down the highway like ghost ships in the dark with their lights off. WRX or Avalon, these drivers are dangerous. Why? Because they need to be educated. This whole idea of just plucking an age out of the air and enforcing blanket curfews, passenger limits, engine restrictions, etc. just doesn't sit well with me. I don't think enough thought has gone into this proposal.

[VX2VESS]

my son went for his licence on friday first time and failed, probably due to all the media hype they are being tougher.

he hit a bird that flew in from the side and bounced off the bonnet. the tester said he should have stopped to avoid it :eek:

[muzza]

I agree Dominik - we need DRIVER EDUCATION, and it appears the Gov't (whether it is NSW, VIC or wherever) has produced the classic knee-jerk response, just so they look like they are doing something, no matter how stupid.

But do you se my point re: one car is "safer" than another for a P plate - it's just not true.

NO car is safe if there's an unsafe driver behind the wheel, and a car that feels safer and more secure will not start reaching it's limits until higher speeds, so that available reaction time is reduced. So in a way, reducing P plate access to powerful cars that generally have correspondingly higher levels of handling/braking is not a bad thing IMHO.

Which is not to say young men (mostly) wont kill themselves and others in small 4 cylshopping trolleys - they will, but if they are going slower when they f@ck up, there'a more chance they wont die/be in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives.

[LSX-438]

how long have these power restrictions been in place in Vic?

[MYVYSS]

my son went for his licence on friday first time and failed, probably due to all the media hype they are being tougher.

he hit a bird that flew in from the side and bounced off the bonnet. the tester said he should have stopped to avoid it :eek:


ROFL....thats hilarious....I would have thought he would hit the instructor...asking did you throw that at my car....stupid Birds...

[Devil CV8]

my son went for his licence on friday first time and failed, probably due to all the media hype they are being tougher.

he hit a bird that flew in from the side and bounced off the bonnet. the tester said he should have stopped to avoid it :eek:
If that was the sole reason for failure then I'd be lodging a complaint as the tester is WRONG. It is illegal to brake or swerve to avoid an animal, you are to hit them and then stop to give assistance, as or if required. Reason for this is too many people swerve to avoid a dog/cat etc and end up having a bigger crash....

[xshore]

I can honnestly say that since I got my SS I drive very calm and mostly to the speed limit. Before in my people mover falcon I was always speeding excessively, gunning the pedal, and driving recklessly. The V6 and I6 are just as dangerous if not more since the drivers are always pushing them to the extreme to get some peformance out of them.

[VS_SeV]

If that was the sole reason for failure then I'd be lodging a complaint as the tester is WRONG. It is illegal to brake or swerve to avoid an animal, you are to hit them and then stop to give assistance, as or if required. Reason for this is too many people swerve to avoid a dog/cat etc and end up having a bigger crash....
Damn those bastards that run animals over and continue driving like nothing happened or worse still that it was funny. :mad:

[VX2VESS]

If that was the sole reason for failure then I'd be lodging a complaint as the tester is WRONG. It is illegal to brake or swerve to avoid an animal, you are to hit them and then stop to give assistance, as or if required. Reason for this is too many people swerve to avoid a dog/cat etc and end up having a bigger crash....

well was a couple of others but he was 89% had to get over 90% on the test.
other two things were being too cautious at round a bouts, not taking a safe gap, and hit the wipers instead of the blinkers, bloody corolla with blinkers on the euro side...... none which seem to be something to fail on...

[Space Pope]

my son went for his licence on friday first time and failed, probably due to all the media hype they are being tougher.

he hit a bird that flew in from the side and bounced off the bonnet. the tester said he should have stopped to avoid it :eek:

Yeah?....and what kinda drug was the tester on. :eek:

[team illucid]

other two things were being too cautious at round a bouts, not taking a safe gap,.

Well F#$K me .... that would appear to be about 92% of all drivers problems :lol:

[bobg]

how long have these power restrictions been in place in Vic?
I think it was about 1992 when they were introduced. The then Minister for Transport Peter Spyker [he who had a son with HOON1 number plates] though it was a good idea. He also wanted to exclude "P" platers driving ALL modified vehicles. We managed to convince him of the impossibility of that [Mr Plod could say as you have fitted a Pioneer radio to replace that AirChief one the vehicle is now a modified vehicle].

I chose some pretty high [at the time] numbers to define a "High Powered Vehicle" which is what the restriction applies to. More than 125 kW per tonne [for a power to weight ratio] or more than 3.5 litres per tonne [for a torque to weight ratio] = a high powered vehicle. This only eliminated cars like my HK GTS 327, Falcon GTs, A9Xs etc and most Ferarris, Porsches, lambos, etc. Now these figures seem pretty tame and grab a lot of very basic cars.

As for them being enforced, it is based on a listing produced by VicRoads from the manufacturers quoted figures but gets very silly when say a V8 Executive is prohibited but the Berlina [slightly heavier] is OK.

There is also an exemption if you have to drive the vehicle for your work.

I could go on and on about how ineffective such a ban is [as many have said above] and how impossible it is to properly administer but then I would be just repeating my ravings of way back in 1992 and it did not convince my political masters then so why would it influence modern pollies? In some ways they are even less astute now.

Regards

Bob G

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

NSW should have a power to weight ratio limit on P platers, regardless of age. Thats it. I was driving around in a VL on my Ps, aint no big deal. Have to learn to crawl before you can walk.

I agree with BIG T on this one, I feel lucky I'm on QLD reading the bad raps the younger drivers down there are getting because some idiots dont understand the concept of time and place.

If I were living down south and this was being introduced they could have my car but they will be bloody well paying out my loan and if it was up to me to sell it then they cand send me a cheque for the depreciation that I would be incurring on my Clubbie! :mad:

[strife]

The discussion paper so far is limited only to learners and provisional license holders under the age of 26

I do think though it requires a national approach, I left WA on a full license and ended up in Victoria having to be on Ps for around 3 months until I was 21.

I had a conditional license to drive to and from work (not sure if these are still around) since I was 16. License age was 17.

[dvx]

again i dont think its going to happen.

That 20 yr old wasnt driving that skyline at 160+ just becuase he was 20, its becuase he was STUPID. When you turn 26 you dont magically at 12 midnight realise what you should and shouldnt do beind the wheel. He also had a 33yr old next to him in the passenger seat. He did sweet F all to stop that guy doing rediculous speeds down a suburban street.

And why DO the government REALLY CARE if a few p platers die. I found myself asking that question and not really bieng able to answer it with any reasonable response. Its not the governments responsibility to stop stupid p platers from doing rediculous speeds down quiet suburban roads.

Wheres that pedestrian council guy, its his turn to add fuel to the roaring bullshit fire.

[dpac]

i think the restriction is a good idea... but only to limit P platers... i am on my P's for another year and i am selling my car (not because of the restriction)..... i am on the road for a living (Heavy rigid truckie) and have had alot of road experience, but i think if the power is there it will get used and for me being a teenager and not giving a whole lot of s**t about my future it's not such a good idea... although i don't drive like a HOON i have done some stupid s**t in my time in the car!

limiting 26 year old's to high perfomance cars is a load of s**t.... hopefully in a couple of years the laws don't come out and i get a bit more mature and buy myself a LS2.......

NOTE: i am not a hoon but like i said with a 5.7L u can put yourself it some life ending situations.... plus my dad now knows this and wants me to sell it and buy a 90mph ski boat.....

hahaahahah just a thought how much of a jip would it be if they only limited male drivers up to 26..... u know with insurance, etc

[JaminVYII]

well was a couple of others but he was 89% had to get over 90% on the test.
other two things were being too cautious at round a bouts, not taking a safe gap, and hit the wipers instead of the blinkers, bloody corolla with blinkers on the euro side...... none which seem to be something to fail on...


When I went for my Ps I stalled at a set of lights and hit the kurb on the parallel parking effort. I passed because the instructor put the stall down to nerves, and i was able to correct the park in less than 3 moves (something like that). I think it depends on which side of the bed the instructor wakes up on as to how you're scored.

On the Under-26s debate, I live right on the NSW/ACT border, so if this new law DOES come into play, I'll just "move residence" interstate to the ACT. I would be able to use a friends address to register my car at, and then I can get an ACT license. Problem solved.

But, as you all know this is only up for public debate at the moment, and it will be damn interesting to see what does eventuate.

[strife]

does the act follow nsw guidelines now ?

[exwrx]

The road safety debate in Australia is a farce. Politicians need to be seen to be doing something so we get kneejerk reactions instead of rational debate. I think there is a lot more that should be done, but progressively instead if in response to particular tragedies.

The reality is that reducing the road toll is a never ending process. Restrictions on P platers is only a small part of the solution, but it will help. Ongoing driver education, better enforcement, better roads, safer cars are all part of the solution. If you dont like what is being proposed, then tell your local MP, write to the papers, whatever. But come up with alternative solutions. Eg - How about confiscation of cars for drink driving instead of hooning?

Final point. I wanted a falcon GT when I got my licence, but wasnt allowed (My old man introduced power to weight restrictions a long time before the govt did :lol: ). I understand now that I woudnt be here today if I bought that GT. Dare I say it but if more parents could be as persuasive as my old man was, the govt woudnt be stepping in.

[JaminVYII]

does the act follow nsw guidelines now ?


Na, the ACT has its own set of rules for drivers. From memory, P-Platers can get off their Ps after 1 year if they do some course.

Thats why I would use an ACT address (family/friend) to register my car at, and to list as my residental address for an ACT license.

[Jasonss]

What is one to do about the cop who got killed in WA over the weekend? How does one legislate against a traffic officer doing a U-Turn on a busy Highway infront of an oncoming 4WD? Maybe he shouldn't have bothered trying to catch the motorist who may have only been doing 5 - 10km/h over the speed limit :idea:

That's not bad. Major crash here haven't determined who's at fault and you have, outstanding. :mad:

The reason Traffic police exist is to stop idiots from killing themselves, or god forbid, someone else. Anything done to 1. improve the standards of driving; or; 2. restrict the impact speeds have to be a good thing. Surely?

[Glenn@Autowerks]

Vision to fix P-Plate crisis

EXCLUSIVE By LILLIAN SALEH Political Reporter

November 29, 2004

YOUNG motorists face tougher driving tests and will have to stay on their Learner and Provisional licences longer under proposals aimed at stopping the youth carnage on the state's roads.



The State Government's long-awaited discussion paper on young drivers – obtained by The Daily Telegraph and to be released by Roads Minister Carl Scully today – contains 11 proposals to curb the youth road toll.


Among them are all the demands campaigned for by The Daily Telegraph.


P-plate motorists under 26 will be banned from driving high-powered and heavy vehicles, while P1 holders – or those to have incurred demerit points – will be restricted to one passenger at a time.


High schools will also play a greater role in teaching young drivers through a standardised driver education course.


The eagerly-awaited news came as young drivers from Sydney to Newcastle yesterday paid their respects in a Rememberance Cruise to Natasha Schyf, Carl Homer and Emile Dousset – killed after their Nissan Skyline R34 GTR crashed in to a telegraph pole in Wyoming last Monday.


The horrific crash was the first in a string of P-plate accidents that left another four youngsters in hospital with serious injuries.


Other initiatives to be released today for public consultation include:


Doubling the mandatory period of supervised driving for Learner drivers from 50 hours to 100 hours


Doubling the minimum time spent on L plates to 12 months, and increasing the Provisional Licence age to 18


Improving the Driving Ability Road Test (from Ls to Ps) with a greater focus on hazard perception and safe driving practices


Modifying the demerit point system for Provisional drivers including suspending licences if they exceed their demerit points


A night driving restriction between 10pm and 5am for P1 holders under 26, however exemptions would be available if the driver is heading to and from work, study or for a medical emergency


The Government's discussion paper notes the difficulties in applying and enforcing the curfew, instead, Learner drivers may be required to complete 15 hours of night time supervised driving.


Drivers under 26 make up just 15 per cent of licenced drivers, but are involved in 36 per cent of fatal accidents. On average, a P-plate driver dies in NSW every six days, while another 17 are involved in daily crashes.


Mr Scully yesterday told The Daily Telegraph initiatives will only be introduced if they are "practical, enforceable and broadly supported".


But he said that he was strongly considering limiting novice drivers to one passenger at a time, and restricting young motorists from driving high-powered cars.


Mr Scully yesterday defended the three-month consultation period.


Measures which had the overwhelming support of the community will be implemented "much sooner", he promised.


Still, on current statistics 15 young drivers will be dead and another 1530 involved in crashes by the time public debate ends on February 28.


Mr Scully said the closing date was set at the request of the Commissioner for Young Children and People who wanted to ensure young people had enough time to express their views.


"I want young people to have some ownership of the changes that we ultimately make because I believe that will ensure better observance," Mr Scully said.


Greg Langham, whose 15-year-old daughter Erin was killed in a horrific multiple-fatality crash two years ago, yesterday accused the State Government of "moving too slowly"


"While everyone is talking about what they're going to do, our kids are dying every day," Mr Langham, of Buxton, south of Sydney said.


He said driver education is the most-important initiative that the Government should introduce.


"Schools teach our students sex education in Year 7. They should be teaching them something that may one day save their life."


Mr Langham said his family will live with the loss of Erin for the rest of their lives, and they did not want other families to suffer the same loss.


"It seems every time we pick up the paper there's something in there about a young driver or person killed in a crash. I know what it is like to lose a child, there is no way we'd wish it on anyone."


He said the State Government should consider subsidising the cost of professional driving lessons for novice drivers.

[LSX-438]

The NSW fatality rate for 17-25 year olds is essentially the same as Victoria adjusted for population, registered cars and k's travelled (and Vic has had constraints in place for 10 years?) ... I dont see a crisis, i see a cheap tabloid newspaper making up some news and peddling some high profile yet grossly simple answers aimed towards easy targets.

[Bandit]

this would be the DUMBEST move by the NSW g'ment...

they already are going to loose the next election and dumb moves like this only enhance their stupidity..

instead of concentrating on the rail network...

after one unfortunate accident there is no need for measures such as this

i though this was a democratic country...not a COMMUNISM...

95% of drivers are fairly sensible drivers on the road...who look after and drive with care....

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[djgelling]

they got bucklys getting my ls1 off me... over my dead F**King body, if you have the cash to afford one they cannot stop you under the equal rights& fair trading acts

Hmmmmm, believe they already do it it with motor bikes, end of that line of argument I think!!

[djgelling]

this would be the DUMBEST move by the NSW g'ment...

they already are going to loose the next election and dumb moves like this only enhance their stupidity..



Hmmmm, as an owner of an XR-6T I understand the "need for speed" thing make no mistake. But after very nearly invoking the Darwinian theory of Evolution (ie extinction of the dumbest) on myself when I was a P-plater and having two teenage kids coming up for their licences, any move to legislate to reduce the power of cars that they can legally buy in those first few years has my vote. I'm sure for every vote they lose from the under 26's, they will gain two from the parents. I can't stop my kids speeding, but I can stop them doing it in less than 6 seconds and just maybe they'll survive long enough to realise how vulnerable they really were!!

[Goggles]

see here for the NSW Govt's discussion paper:
http://www.youngdrivers.com.au/

[LSX-438]

those stats look scary i isolation but we need to compare them to victoria who has implemented p-plate power restrictions. i will find time to pull out the stats later.

[dominik]

see here for the NSW Govt's discussion paper:
http://www.youngdrivers.com.au/Like everyone else I agree something needs to be done, but some of the initiatives are flawed.

"Options relating to night driving" How the heck would they be able to properly enforce a curfew? Imagine some of the situations P-platers will find themselves in where they have legitimate reasons for being out after 10pm that aren't work related or a health emergency.

Just a quick comment on the faster cars: I know some people here are saying cars that accelerate quickly are death traps for younger drivers but on the flipside think of how many difficult situations you might find yourself in driving a slow car. Have you ever seen those people who seem to be waiting forever to turn into busy oncoming traffic because their car takes off slowly, and then get pressured into doing something stupid by an impatient driver behind them who's probably driving a much faster car?

I've talked to quite a few people about this and they all agree that when driven sensibly a car that can accelerate quickly is much safer than a slower car and I'm not just talking about the old clunkers. A slow 0-100 time might one day mean getting slammed up the rear by a rapidly accelerating truck. Even as a passenger, I'm more comfortable in a performance car when it's being driven responsibly because they feel so much more stable at all speeds. It all comes down to the driver and that's why driver education should be the No. 1 initiative in the government's proposal.

[BIG T]

[QUOTE=dominik]Like everyone else I agree something needs to be done, but some of the initiatives are flawed.

"Options relating to night driving" How the heck would they be able to properly enforce a curfew? Imagine some of the situations P-platers will find themselves in where they have legitimate reasons for being out after 10pm that aren't work related or a health emergency.

Just a quick comment on the faster cars: I know some people here are saying cars that accelerate quickly are death traps for younger drivers but on the flipside think of how many difficult situations you might find yourself in driving a slow car. Have you ever seen those people who seem to be waiting forever to turn into busy oncoming traffic because their car takes off slowly, and then get pressured into doing something stupid by an impatient driver behind them who's probably driving a much faster car?



I can see your point, but these days, a modern Corolla or Astra or Mazda etc, has enough accelaration and speed to safely make right hand turns/overtaking etc in these dangerous situations that you hve described.

[dominik]

I can see your point, but these days, a modern Corolla or Astra or Mazda etc, has enough accelaration and speed to safely make right hand turns/overtaking etc in these dangerous situations that you hve described.BigT, here are some 0-100 times from Motor magazine for brand new cars:

Holden Astra SRi: 9.58
Ford Focus: 9.86
Holden Barina SRi: 9.90
Toyota Corolla hatch: 9.24
Proton Satria: 9.94
Volkswagen Golf: 8.90
Mini Cooper: 9.94
Peugeot 206: 9.0
Lexus IS200: 10.65
Audi TT: 8.93
Alfa Romeo GTV: 9.41
Alfa Romeo 147: 9.70
Mitsubishi Lancer VR-X: 9.42 (and this is marketed as "rally inspired")

All the females I know for example buy cars based almost entirely on how they look so they'd never take any of this into consideration unless somebody convinced them to.

[BIG T]

BigT, here are some 0-100 times from Motor magazine for brand new cars:

Holden Astra SRi: 9.58
Ford Focus: 9.86
Holden Barina SRi: 9.90
Toyota Corolla hatch: 9.24
Proton Satria: 9.94
Volkswagen Golf: 8.90
Mini Cooper: 9.94
Peugeot 206: 9.0
Lexus IS200: 10.65
Audi TT: 8.93
Alfa Romeo GTV: 9.41
Alfa Romeo 147: 9.70
Mitsubishi Lancer VR-X: 9.42 (and this is marketed as "rally inspired")

All the females I know for example buy cars based almost entirely on how they look so they'd never take any of this into consideration unless somebody convinced them to.


They all look quick enough to me for safe city driving zipping in and out of traffic.

[dominik]

They all look quick enough to me for safe city driving zipping in and out of traffic. Each to his own but I think they're sluggish enough to cause problems at times, especially with a person who's impatient and might be running late. Let's take the $22K Holden Barina SRi for example: 1.8L with 92kw @ close to max revs, 0-100 in approx. 10 secs. In a situation with 5 people on board turning across busy oncoming traffic and up a hill, how fast would that thing accelerate in a jam?

[BIG T]

Each to his own but I think they're sluggish enough to cause problems at times, especially with a person who's impatient and might be running late. Let's take the $22K Holden Barina SRi for example: 1.8L with 92kw @ close to max revs, 0-100 in approx. 10 secs. In a situation with 5 people on board turning across busy oncoming traffic and up a hill, how fast would that thing accelerate in a jam?


Hahaha..your really splitting hairs here..........five people in a Barina? One would think that if 5 people could fit in a Barina, they would be on the slimmer side. And yes I would think, even with 5 reasonably slim people on board that a Barina could still safely move through traffic, obviously not at the speed as a 6 or an 8, but it would stil do the job.

92kw is nothing when compared to a V8, but you have to remember, that some of those old coommodores like the VK (106kw injected) and the VL (114kw) had similer power to what the Barina/Astra has today and they were classifeid as family cars. :)

[keepleft]

Further to SSUte03 post:-

Today, Monday 30 November 04, the NSW government has created a website for its 'discussion paper' covering the 'options' as to where we go next in relation to P Plate driver. NSW is seeking feedback on these various options.

Downloadable PDF or RTF.
Website: http://www.youngdrivers.com.au/


Comments are sought by 28 February 2005.

Jeremy H. Pritchard
Mot.Adv-NSW
mot.adv@gotalk.net.au

[dominik]

Hahaha..your really splitting hairs here.......... I'm glad you've got a sense of humor :)

I knew I was stretching it there.

Seriously though, the point I was trying to make, and it looks like I failed, was that a lot of these "safe vehicles" for P-Platers can sometimes be more of a problem than something like a WRX which Carr and Co. do not think is safe at all for drivers under 26 who do not hold an Open license. The bottom line for me is it all comes down to being responsible and being educated. You can give one person $5000 and they'll invest it and another will blow it all on the pokies without blinking. Horses for courses.

[myles]

Posted by Dominik "Each to his own but I think they're sluggish enough to cause problems at times, especially with a person who's impatient and might be running late. Let's take the $22K Holden Barina SRi for example: 1.8L with 92kw @ close to max revs, 0-100 in approx. 10 secs. In a situation with 5 people on board turning across busy oncoming traffic and up a hill, how fast would that thing accelerate in a jam?"

The driver listed in a previous example above may be waiting an extended period of time, not being able to take opportunities that are on offer with a better car, and instead after waiting an extended period of time (with the driver behind becoming frustrated) take a dangerous option.

What it comes down to, you can be a lunatic driver in any car . Driving 80 km around a bend in a barina in the wet will most likely kill the driver, passengers on board and those crossing the street.

Speed isn't the only factor that causes accidents, unnecessary weaving can be just as dangerous. How many bozos driving rust buckets not to mention elderly drivers can cause severe accidents, can harm lives through disruptions in traffic?

Are we going to ban weaving rust bucket cars trying to be driven fast (but dangerously) and indecisive elderly drivers?

How many people cause accidents by driving into a pole after adjusting their car stereos, smoking, or while paying attention to their kids in the backseat? Are we going to ban people with car stereos, smokers, parents paying attention to their kids while driving?

This proposed legislation is a band-aid to try and ease the pain of grieving parents.

Driver education is most important . Make it compulsory every young driver attend several defensive driving causes before a licence can be gained. Make it compulsory young drivers attend educational classes such as first aid to learn the consequences of accidents and the emphasis to take care and look after lives and others around you.

[BIG T]

What it comes down to, you can be a lunatic driver in any car . Driving 80 km around a bend in a barina in the wet will most likely kill the driver, passengers on board and those crossing the street.

Speed isn't the only factor that causes accidents, unnecessary weaving can be just as dangerous. How many bozos driving rust buckets not to mention elderly drivers can cause severe accidents, can harm lives through disruptions in traffic?

Are we going to ban weaving rust bucket cars trying to be driven fast (but dangerously) and indecisive elderly drivers?

How many people cause accidents by driving into a pole after adjusting their car stereos, smoking, or while paying attention to their kids in the backseat? Are we going to ban people with car stereos, smokers, parents paying attention to their kids while driving?

This proposed legislation is a band-aid to try and ease the pain of grieving parents.

Driver education is most important . Make it compulsory every young driver attend several defensive driving causes before a licence can be gained. Make it compulsory young drivers attend educational classes such as first aid to learn the consequences of accidents and the emphasis to take care and look after lives and others around you.[/QUOTE]


I agree with most of what you say, but bearing in mind we are talking about young P -platers, I know that you have old perople that shouldnt be driving, and mothers telling off their kids getting into accidents, but more than likely these sorts of people arent speeding & putting other people at risk. Here a few simple points:

*Young P-platers more that likely to drive like lunatics ( Speeding), therefore increased risk of accidents.

* It is easier to speed in a car like a WRX than it is in a Barina. It takes almost twice the amont of time to reach 100ks in a Barina than it does in a WRX. If that kid in Gosford was driving something like a Barina instead of a GTR down that road, do you think he would of cracked 150ks/200ks?

*Yes driver education/training is very important. But, especially with these young P platers, you just have to take away the temptation that comes with a powerful car.

As I said before a drove a stock VL commodore when on my Ps (engine was buggered, lucky to have 90kw!!).

Have to learn to crawl before you can walk.................

[myles]

I also agree with a lot of what you have to say BIG T.

Many young people drive like lunatics. But after waiting until 26, surely many will still go berserk on the roads as many (I would assume) would be even more inclined to get the most powerful car available at 26. Like I mentioned, you can be a moron at any age, 18 or 26.

I looked through that document and the government's proposal of banning high powered cars state "No indication of the effectiveness of the restrictions in Victoria is currently available.

Is the a middle point more suitable?

Maybe a restriction unable to drive a non-turbo non-V8 for 24 months after obtaining a licence (giving young people time to save for their ideal car) while at least, say, six defensive driving classes must be completed each year in that time period?

Further, offer more options in advanced driving classes that are compulsory to attend along with classes such as first aid etc.

I'm focussed on more productive measures such as classes and learning as when I attended first aid for example, and heard of real examples of what happens to a motor cyclist who slipped off his bike due to speeding and died due to extensive losses of blood or the outcomes of car accidents and the effects on people and bodily harm that can occur, it made me think twice.

[myles]

One point people are forgetting, the young guy in the GT-R wasn't driving his car, it was his father's car and it used without permission.

I think more of that would happen if the bans were introduced.