Run in with Porsche GT3 (2003 verision)

[Chev Lumina SS]

Well was bit intersting, my car is VX SS A4 decatted, MAF removed, free flow exahaust, K&N got about 235 kW @ the wheels.

Was waiting at robot and he was ahead of me, he pulled of quickly. Foot down, actually could stay with him till he hit third and traffic became an issue, we were both using the full rev range, heard the GT3 hit limiter in 2nd. Still had TC on which limited my intial launch... ;)

Well would have loved to see his face, with a big Holden looming large in his mirrors...

Now that if we had gone on longer he would have walked away from me, but it was fun anway. :)

Anyone else picked on bigger machinery....

[bobbyvtls1]

mate has a 80s porshe, non turbo 3litre and i s#*# over him in a straight line and he bearly keeps up in corners. i know its an old car but it still makes me feel good.

[Febs]

I had a TLGP with an early 70's 911 about 2 years ago. I had a nose on him up to about 70ish, when he spun into 2nd and pulled away from me at a rate of knots.

Oh, did I mention I was driving a stock VS V6? :D

[SV8VY]

Well was bit intersting, my car is VX SS A4 decatted, MAF removed, free flow exahaust, K&N got about 235 kW @ the wheels.

Was waiting at robot and he was ahead of me, he pulled of quickly. Foot down, actually could stay with him till he hit third and traffic became an issue, we were both using the full rev range, heard the GT3 hit limiter in 2nd. Still had TC on which limited my intial launch... ;)

Well would have loved to see his face, with a big Holden looming large in his mirrors...

Now that if we had gone on longer he would have walked away from me, but it was fun anway. :)

Anyone else picked on bigger machinery....I also had a sqirt with a black one with GT3 plates and he couldnt pull away.
Had a couple of runs down the straight at Eastern creek with a couple of Boxters and left them for dead :lol:
Got beaten by Datsun at WSID though :(

[jasonrouse]

I havnt got anything special compaired to most of the GEN III machineary in this forum. I have a stock VX SS and i have taken on a few boxers... never from a set of lights but on the straight roads from about 70 and i always end up shitting on them up the top end. They would probably get me from a launch though.

I have also had a run with an earlier model yellow dodge viper last year after the auto expo in perth..... i dont need to tell you how that went.

[fourstar82]

I beat a VY SS wagon off the line, stopped at the 70km speed limit and got about 100m infront of him (he wasn't trying) then i heard him put is foot down and he roared past me giving me a big cheesy grin.

[VZKOOP]

I blew away a 2.4 diesel hilux from the lights the other day. Man he was so amazed when i told him my Monaro is stock! :lol:

[Nawdy]

I was able to pull away from an AC Cobra with a BB (429 I think?) M4 earlier on this year at a track day at Hidden Valley. We come onto the main straight nose to tail (I was in front), and by the time we entered the braking area (2nd gear left-hander), I had pulled 20 - 30 metres on him :confused:

I was waiting for him to blast past, but it didn't happen :D .

Great fun

[dominik]

I've got a Porsche story to share even though it's not really my story to tell but "Myles" (not his real name, but anyway) from this forum who I know personally asked me to write something about it since I happened to be in the passenger seat of his VX2 SS at the time.

A Porsche 911 Coupe (996) which looked about 4 or 5 years old, was kind of inviting us to have a run with him for at least 10 minutes on the way to the freeway late last night. Myles wasn't interested. I casually told him "this guy's hanging around like a bad smell. It's your call but I'm pretty confident he won't embarrass you."

Another set of lights go past. The Porsche guy kept dropping back and looking over but Myles still seemed uninterested despite sitting in 2nd gear for way too long after each set of lights which wasn't doing anything to convince me he'd given up completely on the idea of taking the Porsche on. "What kind of Porsche is it?" he asks. Then we get to the final set of lights before the freeway onramp. Last chance to have a go. Any takers?

The lights go green and it's on. No extreme clutch dumping on both sides, it was a pretty sedate take off. The 996 starts half a body length in front and is screaming up the left lane, the SS is gathering steam on the right, and there's nothing in it. On the gear change almost half way up the ramp Myles fell behind by less than a front tyre (where's your short shifter buddy?) and as 2nd started to roar the mighty stock LS1 started to reel in the expensive German boxer sixer and it was almost a dead heat as we all neared the end of the ramp. 350 cubic inches of Yankee muscle vs. Germany's famous racing icon. With a big 4wd up ahead making its way off the ramp this was so close that the Porsche guy had two options... ride the emergency lane and flirt with the wall or hope Myles let him pass behind the 4wd. In the name of safety, Myles let him through and then ripped right ahead on the freeway before returning to regulation speed.

He sat behind the SS all the way to the end of the freeway where he then pulled beside us at the final set of lights and as the passenger side window went down Myles sounded off a press release for the Holden SS. "That's a $200,000 car. This is $50,000. Stock." He shrugged and said "I was in 1st gear all the way." (yeah, right) As the smugness wore off, Myles said "hey, it was fun anyway," and he gave Myles the thumbs up with a smile and that was the end of that. A friendly encounter, as it always should be.

It was an interesting experiment. Not a bad effort from a completely stock 225kw SS which was probably at a 300kg weight disadvantage before either of us gym junkie meatheads climbed in and added another 180kg to the chassis. I'm pretty sure the Porsche in question puts out around 220kw stock. To be honest, without mods I never thought his SS would pull even with the Porsche so early even though I was confident all along it'd have enough grunt to not be put to shame. In the end, the longer it went on the more we got the feeling the LS1 would come out on top.

[mmciau]

VZKOOP,

A classic!!!!!

Mike

[HSVREDSLED]

About 6 months ago, I was driving down the local freeway at or around the speed limit, it was just on dusk and I saw these two lights materialise in my rear vision mirror. I estimate this thing closed on me at about 200+km/h.
Anyway he sat on my ass for about ten seconds then pulled out and began pedalling the throttle urging me for a run. (Mind you we were doing probably about 115km/h at this point.) At this stage I also noticed it was a FPV GT. Anyway, I wound down the window, gave the guy an apologetic smile, shook my head and slowed to about 100k's.
Mr FPV then slows to about 60k,s pulls back into my lane and closes again on me at warp 1 and sits on my tail again. He starts the urging stuff again, and then repeats the tailgating stuff

Anyway, from nowhere a white VS 3.8 litre enters the picture. A young bloke over takes me in his VS, gives me the thumbs up and pulls into the lane in front of me. It looks like a race between VSBoyracer and Mr FPV is imminent. Mr Clubby now will be spectator. A bit one sided I thought with boyracer putting his 3.8 litre against the might of the The flagship of Ford performance.

But...boyracer had a trick or two up his sleeve. Firstly he slowed to about 60 or 70km/h (kick down speed into 2nd gear) and obviously caught Mr FPV in a higher gear.

I think Mr FPV was caught off guard, and to hide this fact he made it look like he purposefully gave VSboyracer a head start. Then the might and fury of the 5.4 FPV was unleashed. He was quickly reeling in his underpowered opposition, with Mr Clubby playing spectator role only.

Mr FPV was in full white knuckled glory as his beast quickly swallowed the underpowered VSboyracer. As it passed him, the VS rocked from side to side due to the jetwash of Mr FPV. Absorbed in his glory, Mr FPV may have well have overlooked the fact that VSboyracer had almost locked his tyres, in harsh braking on a relatively straight stretch of road for no apparent reason.

It also appears, that during his battle with VSboyracer, Mr FPV may also have missed the three roadsigns saying (from memory) SPEED CAMERA AHEAD.
With his foot through the firewall (throttle) I estimate Mr NOMORELICENCE FPV was doing about 220 odd k's when his photo was taken.

When the flash went off his brake lights came on immediately and stayed on for what seemed an eternity and I still didnt close on him. Myself and VSboyracer were doing 109km/h of course.

I took the next exit and giggled my ass off. VSboyracer took the same exit, and Mr NOMORELICENSE FPV kept going, still with his brake lights on!!!

I pulled beside VSboyracer and we wound down our windows and could not talk for laughing.

Vsboyracer or whoever you are.....If you are reading....I tip my hat to you.

[myles]

Dominik, you haven't left me with much to say! ;)

I'm not a fan of racing on freeways and streets as having a face like mince or walking with one leg isn't my idea of a good life. But it was interesting, sizing up what the stock SS had against a quality sports car.

Keeping pace at take off was on my mind, more so with an extra person creating a slight bit of lag. (Doing without a big ape in the passenger seat could have been an advantage!) :p

It was a clear straight with a slight incline. He took off first, I didn't have to rev out first gear, lost a bit on the change to second, but second was motoring. With two lanes merging into one and both cars level, a 4WD slugging along became somewhat of an imminent problem.

The porsche actually had to take the emergency lane, losing to a Holden wasn't obviously on his mind, while I kept to the main and now single lane. As the porsche's emergency lane concrete barrier started to curve in, right on target for the 4WD and my car, I hit the brakes at the thought of all three cars exploding. I know there is a fine line between crazy and stupid, I'm content to stick to the first.

Anyway, the ten seconds or so it lasted were enjoyable. But what was more enjoyable was the conversation afterwards where the driver didn't believe the SS was just 'stock' and only cost '50 grand' compared to his '200 grand'. I've always had respect for Holdens, but it wasn't until a moment like this which made me realise how enjoyable and awesome they really are.

[team illucid]

I had a race against a green and black SLR 5000 (or so I thought) and at 200 kmh we were pretty much side by side at which point he left me for absolute dead and pulled away like a stung cat ... at the next town I caught up with him at a servo and he casually explained that it was his dad's sprint car engine :eek: powering away ...

[clixanup]

I estimate Mr NOMORELICENCE FPV was doing about 220 odd k's when his photo was taken.

HAHAHAHA

GOLD.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[dominik]

But it was interesting, sizing up what the stock SS had against a quality sports car.That's what it was all about. It's not like you were inviting him to race. He wanted to take you on, you were reluctant, and at the last moment you gave him what he wanted and he sure as hell wasn't expecting that.


Keeping pace at take off was on my mind, more so with an extra person creating a slight bit of lag. (Doing without a big ape in the passenger seat could have been an advantage!) :pI apologize for adding almost 100kg to the weight of the SS. I think together we turned it into a Statesman. On a normal night you just might have pulled ahead (not that there's any shame in pulling even with a 996 Porsche ;) ). It was probably a good thing you didn't pull in front because he wasn't backing down and there was an obstacle at the end of the ramp. No obstacle, no extra 100kg, and you'd have most likely come out on top. He definitely wasn't making any ground on you after the first gear change. I'm glad the Porsche guy took the whole thing the right way, considering both you and him were expecting the Porsche to own that ramp :driving:

[HyperUTE]

Porsche is a very well engineered and designed car for track and curcuit racing compared to a Commodore thats why you're paying alot more for it than a Commodore. I don't believe a stock SS (maybe with a tune) could pull ahead or side-by-side with a Porsche 996 (Boxster yeah). A porsche 996 Carrera although its $220,000, power wise it's quite slow untill you get to the GT2 or GT3 which is $3-$400,000. But spending $200,000 on a Commodore, you will enjoy and have alot more fun than a Porsche.... Thats why now when i spend money on my car its goes to my SS.

[dominik]

Porsche is a very well engineered and designed car for track and curcuit racing compared to a Commodore thats why you're paying alot more for it than a Commodore. I don't believe a stock SS (maybe with a tune) could pull ahead or side-by-side with a Porsche 996 (Boxster yeah). A porsche 996 Carrera although its $220,000, power wise it's quite slow untill you get to the GT2 or GT3 which is $3-$400,000. But spending $200,000 on a Commodore, you will enjoy and have alot more fun than a Porsche.... Thats why now when i spend money on my car its goes to my SS.HyperUte, I was there as a passenger, and I wasn't a believer until it happened. As I said earlier, I always thought the stock SS would give it a run for its money but I wasn't expecting a dead heat. This went beyond a 0-100 sprint and at no point did the 996 pull away. If anything, it wasn't even a fair contest because (a) he initiated the race so Myles (from this forum), the guy driving, was the one who hesitated for a fraction of a second giving the Porsche the edge on take off (as if he needed any help there), and (b) the Porsche was carrying about 400kg less weight. To my knowledge both cars in stock form are about equal on the dyno. As we neared the end of the ramp, the Porsche guy was the one who was flirting with the retaining wall as it merged into one lane. If he was ahead that couldn't have happened. I can guarantee you, Myles' car hasn't had any work done. I can't speak for the Porsche.

P.S. I totally agree with you about the Porsche being a true sports car vs. the SS which is obviously a souped up sedan however at a quarter of the price the SS is the one that really shined in the straight line duel. Around a track, no contest. But we can't all afford to drive a Porsche :)

[NinetySix]

hmmmm sure street racing is silly, but it can be a little satisfying from time to time ;)

i might have to change the decal on the side of my bike to "250" rather than "750" cause nobody except stock VN V6's are keen for a play... but on my old 250 anyone and anything would have a squirt :rolleyes:


edit: was it definately a 996 tho? couldnt have been something older/slower with 996 badges on it?

[dominik]

edit: was it definately a 996 tho? couldnt have been something older/slower with 996 badges on it? Without question. The interesting twist to it is he often parks in my building so I've seen it up close and it is a genuine 996 coupe. I never looked at the registration sticker so I can't say what year but going by Internet photos that match the car down to the rims it's late 90s-2000 model I think.

Here's a link (http://www.qv500.com/porsche996p1.htm)... it looks identical to the blue and silver ones on that page. That page also says they run to 100 in 5.2 secs.

Btw, I know against a GT2/GT3 it wouldn't have been a contest in a stock SS but this was still a real Porsche sports car we're talking about and the guy was going for broke in it. It also begs the question... how many guys in a stock LS1 SS would try their luck against a willing Porsche 996? The outcome surprised everyone concerned, Porsche dude included, since he almost ran out of room giving it everything he had and he couldn't pull in front. Sure the old VNs etc. might have a crack but that's usually like pissing against the wind. Myles gave it go, something maybe a lot of guys in HSVs and new SSs mightn't be game to do without a few mods, and he came out with a dead heat. Anything less than a couple of car lengths in front is a loss for the Porsche as far as I'm concerned.

[HyperUTE]

P.S. I totally agree with you about the Porsche being a true sports car vs. the SS which is obviously a souped up sedan however at a quarter of the price the SS is the one that really shined in the straight line duel. Around a track, no contest. But we can't all afford to drive a Porsche :)

"We can't all afford to drive a Porsche" has no relevance to any thing. :)
I'm not saying that you are making it up, I have no doubt that you are telling the truth and you were there but Myles might just be a better driver. :)

[NinetySix]

something dosnt sound right...

0-100 in 5.2 and a 171mph top speed must equate to better accelleration than a stock SS...

but a kill is a kill :cool:

[dominik]

"We can't all afford to drive a Porsche" has no relevance to any thing. :)
I'm not saying that you are making it up, I have no doubt that you are telling the truth and you were there but Myles might just be a better driver. :) Sure it has some relevance. If we could afford one, maybe we'd both be driving one :) Seriously, we both came away from that quite surprised because the car is stock. What you said about Myles' driving may be true... maybe it was a case of him coming out on top there. But let's face it, you'd expect a Porsche 996 to outrun him, even with some ordinary gear changes. As for making the story up, I have nothing to gain by doing that. I'd happily take a photo of the car in question next time it's parked downstairs but I see no point. He wanted to race and he got a race... he just got more than he bargained for from a Commodore :)

[dominik]

something dosnt sound right...

0-100 in 5.2 and a 171mph top speed must equate to better accelleration than a stock SS...Your guess is as good as mine why he didn't win. The specs are all in the Porsche's favor, namely weight. As I said, the two of us weighed down the already heavy SS by a good 180kg. But it's a lot like the old dyno vs. track times argument... in the real world, a real race, I saw it with my own two eyes as a passenger, he came up short. That's why I posted the story in the first place. We were both really surprised and buzzing about it. One of those "WHAT THE?" moments.

Btw, that linked page states: "Indeed, top speed was 171mph whilst zero to sixty took a blistering 5.2 seconds (or six seconds dead for Tiptronic versions)." Maybe his was Tiptronic. Next time I see the car I'll take a peek through the window and confirm it along with the rego sticker details.

[HyperUTE]

. What you said about Myles' driving may be true... maybe it was a case of him coming out on top there. But let's face it, you'd expect a Porsche 996 to outrun him, even with some ordinary gear changes. As for making the story up, I have nothing to gain by doing that. I'd happily take a photo of the car in question next time it's parked downstairs but I see no point. He wanted to race and he got a race... he just got more than he bargained for from a Commodore :)

Driving skills has a lot to do with a Carrera when racing at light because as i explained a Carera doesn't have alot of power compared to GTs and it is different and harder to lauch a Porsche. It's design to keep traction so when taking off, even a little traction lost will make the car jump really bad (like axle tramp). The Porsche WOULD of pulled away easily with normal driving from a stock SS if it was a GT2 or GT3. :)

but good on ya, it would make me happy too.....:)

[dominik]

Driving skills has a lot to do with a Carrera when racing at light because as i explained a Carera doesn't have alot of power compared to GTs and it is different and harder to lauch a Porsche. It's design to keep traction so when taking off, even a little traction lost will make the car jump really bad (like axle tramp). The Porsche WOULD of pulled away easily with normal driving from a stock SS if it was a GT2 or GT3. :)

but good on ya, it would make me happy too.....:)Sure, driver skills might have been the deciding factor, but since Myles wasn't even expecting to race, he still had t/c on. Add all that extra weight and we weren't launching anywhere in a hurry either :) Porsche guy was also the one to initiate it so he got the jump on Myles out of the blocks.

It did leave us both blown away by the result and pretty happy because of his SS being completely stock. Remember the old Monaro ad that pitched the Monaro against exotic cars in a kind of computer game setting? For a few moments in time, it felt like that. Stock LS1 vs. a true German sports car. Like I said, maybe a lot of guys wouldn't have given it a go in a stock Holden/HSV because we all read the magazines and see the specs on Porsches, etc. so it kind of seems like a pointless exercise. He took a chance, he gave the Porsche guy what he wanted and then some :)

[jasonrouse]

I own a stock VX SS and (For fun) raced a yellow dodge viper in the city.
It was after the Auto Expo... there was heaps of exotics getting around.
I was going around a round about and he pulled off in front of me from one of the other exits and my brother who was in the passenger seat started going "Oh go on jay do it do it!!!) so I tailed him.
He didnt really seem interested (i was pacing him beside him) and he (old fellah in his mid 50s) looked at me with a smirk and looked forward again... i knew he was gunna gun it so I got in first... i slammed it back into second and got about a car length in front of him and I heard this MAMOTH growl.i was just about too slam it into second and he went hard on the brakes and matched my speed looked over again waved (i was still full throtal) and looked forward again and zoomed off.

What I was amayzaed about was how quickly he took off

The SS is a quick car.... but i didnt realise that a Viper was that quick. It took off from me from 120 like i would to a standard V6 from the same speed.

[dominik]

The SS is a quick car.... but i didnt realise that a Viper was that quick. It took off from me from 120 like i would to a standard V6 from the same speed.If the Dodge Viper was designed to do one thing ridiculously well it's bolt like crazy in a straight line. 8.3L V10 stock. I'm pretty sure it does 0-100 in under 4 seconds and they're close to the same weight as an SS. There's a Viper tuner over there called Hennessey that cranks out 600kw+ twin-turbo models.

[V82xist]

something dosnt sound right...

0-100 in 5.2 and a 171mph top speed must equate to better accelleration than a stock SS...

but a kill is a kill :cool:

Your quite right, however just cause a person owns a Porshe doesn't mean they can drive. When i was 18 (over 10 years ago) I owned a 1981 Toyota Corona Liftback with the 18rc 2.0ltr engine with only extractors on it and I kept up with a Porshe 911 Turbo on Rafting Ground Rd in Brisbane due to the fact he was an abosolute crap driver, who took the worst lines I had ever seen. If anyone knows the road it's all corners (has changed a little know but not too much). I was very disappointed as I wanted to see how well the Porshe went...what a waste of a sports car :bash:

[Inter-ceptor]

Dominik, this sounds similar to my "300 ZX vs VS Acclaim" drag.
The NA 300ZX does about 7.2 to a 100 KM/h or slightly slower, the stock VS does 8.9 sec to 100... and I beat him... is it just me or some drivers suck at dragging?

[Elite SS]

As some of you may know, I don't really condone street racing, but this day I had to prove my MANHOOD :D :D :D
I was sitting at a set of lights when this MEEEN LOOKING Dahatsu charade with this mother of a Tacho blocking his widow rolls up on my left side, and on my right side his mate in his Ford Festiva with a beatiful shiny neon lighted 8 in muffled zorst pulls up, and me in the middle with my tubbed (well I pretended) twin NOS Hilux rent-a-car.
As we all watch the lights to go green the 2 car next to me fire to life with their big screachy (well one of them anyway) and off we go 0 - 60 in 15 seconds, having enough of the game I through it into 1 st and off I go, didn't even have to use my pretend NOS either, I can't wait till I get a chance to line it up with a Porsche Boxter , Ferrari or lambo..:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Inter-ceptor]

As some of you may know, I don't really condone street racing, but this day I had to prove my MANHOOD :D :D :D
I was sitting at a set of lights when this MEEEN LOOKING Dahatsu charade with this mother of a Tacho blocking his widow rolls up on my left side, and on my right side his mate in his Ford Festiva with a beatiful shiny neon lighted 8 in muffled zorst pulls up, and me in the middle with my tubbed (well I pretended) twin NOS Hilux rent-a-car.
As we all watch the lights to go green the 2 car next to me fire to life with their big screachy (well one of them anyway) and off we go 0 - 60 in 15 seconds, having enough of the game I through it into 1 st and off I go, didn't even have to use my pretend NOS either, I can't wait till I get a chance to line it up with a Porsche Boxter , Ferrari or lambo..:lol: :lol: :lol:bwhahahahahahahaha!
:lol:

I reckon I could had you guys with my... Volgren bus! :D 0-100 20 +sec :cool:

[NinetySix]

http://www.sundive.co.uk/furious/images/smoke_him.jpg

"shit, that charade has a bigger tacho than us" :lol:

[Elite SS]

Ninety-six...
These things happen all the time, like the other day I was driving down the M4 and this F 18 pulls down next to me, I had him , only because I had a custom cat back system fitted and don't forget the second hand readtreads, he chickened out and decided to take off into the sky again, but he did give me the thumbs UP... :lol: :lol: :lol:
By the way how did you know I was UGLY .... :(

[NinetySix]

hshahah **** the site im linking to dosnt allow it...

http://www.sundive.co.uk/furious/images/smoke_him.jpg <-- thats the pic i meant to paste :rolleyes: you might have to right click/save as to see it.... bah!

sorry ab out the whole ugly thing

[dominik]

Your quite right, however just cause a person owns a Porshe doesn't mean they can drive. When i was 18 (over 10 years ago) I owned a 1981 Toyota Corona Liftback with the 18rc 2.0ltr engine with only extractors on it and I kept up with a Porshe 911 Turbo on Rafting Ground Rd in Brisbane due to the fact he was an abosolute crap driver, who took the worst lines I had ever seen. If anyone knows the road it's all corners (has changed a little know but not too much). I was very disappointed as I wanted to see how well the Porshe went...what a waste of a sports car :bash:The strip was as straight as an arrow. Follow Mains road to the set of lights before the freeway onramp in Brisbane and you'll see the stretch of road we're talking about. All he had to do was put his foot down and change gears. He had his own lane until the top of the ramp where he flirted with the retaining wall on the left before Myles did the right thing and hit the brakes to give the kamikaze Porsche some room.

I'm not saying driver skill didn't play a role but surely you'd expect a $200K Porsche to beat a stock SS in a dead straight line even if driver X was better than driver Y. I am curious to find out whether the 996 was tiptronic or manual but at the end of the day the Porsche should have come out on top regardless. As someone else said, a win is a win... even as a passenger it was an exciting 10 seconds seeing a Porsche at full tilt not being able to pull away from us. I'm pretty sure a lot of guys here in the same situation would have felt the same way.

[V82xist]

The strip was as straight as an arrow. Follow Mains road to the set of lights before the freeway onramp in Brisbane and you'll see the stretch of road we're talking about. All he had to do was put his foot down and change gears. He had his own lane until the top of the ramp where he flirted with the retaining wall on the left before Myles did the right thing and hit the brakes to give the kamikaze Porsche some room.

I'm not saying driver skill didn't play a role but surely you'd expect a $200K Porsche to beat a stock SS in a dead straight line even if driver X was better than driver Y. I am curious to find out whether the 996 was tiptronic or manual but at the end of the day the Porsche should have come out on top regardless. As someone else said, a win is a win... even as a passenger it was an exciting 10 seconds seeing a Porsche at full tilt not being able to pull away from us. I'm pretty sure a lot of guys here in the same situation would have felt the same way.

Yep, I think it was a very sweet win and the fact it was a straight drag makes it even better. Very :cool:

[clixanup]

http://www.sundive.co.uk/furious/images/smoke_him.jpg <-- thats the pic i meant to paste :rolleyes: you might have to right click/save as to see it.... bah!

Still doesn't work. The whole "ugly" thing is meant to stop bandwidth theft.

You might have to download the image, then put it on a publically accessible server somewhere...

[dominik]

Update: I got a chance to check out the Porsche involved today and it's an auto/tiptronic '98 model which is apparently half a second slower than the manual 996.

Don't get me wrong, I like Porsches but if that was my car and it couldn't pull in front of a stock SS in a straight line drag that I asked for... I swear I'd want to punish that bitch of a car with skanky Woolworths fuel at the next stop :bash:

[NinetySix]

hmmmm.... porsche edit? :p

[Elite SS]

Guy's who knows the Porche's excuse, maybe he was to scared to lose his licence, or maybe he was just to scared to go any faster, limited experience in his driving skill and he didn't want to risk his life.
Just because someone drive's a high performance car doesn't mean that they know how to handle one...
Even still I find it hard to believe that a stock SS Commodore could keep up with that kind of car. Unless your in Criso's "MADLS1" Even then you probably would of killed yourself in the first 50 metres...

[dominik]

Guy's who knows the Porche's excuse, maybe he was to scared to lose his licence, or maybe he was just to scared to go any faster, limited experience in his driving skill and he didn't want to risk his life.
Just because someone drive's a high performance car doesn't mean that they know how to handle one...According to the Porsche 996 specs, the auto does 0-100 in around 6 seconds. The SS can't be too far behind that.

As for the idea of the guy taking it easy, I just wish you could have witnessed it as I did. Trust me, the guy went for broke and almost plummeted into the retaining wall as the ramp merged, kamikaze style. No way was he holding back because he couldn't pull ahead and he made no attempt to slow down and let us through. Myles (SS) was the one who hit the brakes at the last second to let him through in the name of safety.

Anyway, as for all these hypotheticals... when you're at the lights and you suddenly decide to take on a Porsche who's been inviting you to have a go for 10 minutes, you don't sit there thinking about whether the guy can drive or not, if it's auto or manual, got Michelins or Bridgestones on it, a full tank or a quarter, or whatever. The adrenaline kicks in and you go for it.

[NinetySix]

Anyway, as for all these hypotheticals... when you're at the lights and you suddenly decide to take on a Porsche who's been inviting you to have a go for 10 minutes, you don't sit there thinking about whether the guy can drive or not, if it's auto or manual, got Michelins or Bridgestones on it, a full tank or a quarter, or whatever. The adrenaline kicks in and you go for it.

So true that. the only thing missing was for a passanger in the back to wind down the window and show them a little :booty:

[ls1ozstyle]

Anyway, as for all these hypotheticals... when you're at the lights and you suddenly decide to take on a Porsche who's been inviting you to have a go for 10 minutes, you don't sit there thinking about whether the guy can drive or not, if it's auto or manual, got Michelins or Bridgestones on it, a full tank or a quarter, or whatever. The adrenaline kicks in and you go for it.


:yup: Well said!!!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Elite SS]

My Apologies.... I didn't know that model Porsche was that slow, my stock SS Ute does 0-100 in 6.2 1/4 in 14.2 .And I have never run up against that model Porshe myself.
In future I'll keep my mouth shut... :( No I won't :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards
Goran (Alley Cat)

[NORTY8]

I beat a VY SS wagon off the line, stopped at the 70km speed limit and got about 100m infront of him (he wasn't trying) then i heard him put is foot down and he roared past me giving me a big cheesy grin.

was it a black wagon with 300kw badges and 19inch wheels???

[dominik]

My Apologies.... I didn't know that model Porsche was that slow, my stock SS Ute does 0-100 in 6.2 1/4 in 14.2 .And I have never run up against that model Porshe myself.
In future I'll keep my mouth shut... :( No I won't :lol: :lol: :lol: No problem, it's all entertaining anyway. But the thing is, it was still a $200,000 Porsche and he was asking for it all the way.

Think about it this way. Could you imagine say a woman's reaction as a passenger in that Porsche as it screamed up the ramp level with a... "Commodore!?" You know, surely most girls think all Porsches are fast and definitely faster than a Commodore. Luckily for him he didn't have a passenger (who he was trying to impress) so he could drive away not having to explain what happened that night :)

[NORTY8]

I had a recent battle with a current model Subaru STI. He got about 3-4 car lengths on take off from lights but I sat behind him at about 160-170 clicks without any trouble. My car is nearly completely stock. Subaru had huge exhaust and was manual ofcourse. ;)

[dominik]

I had a recent battle with a current model Subaru STI. He got about 3-4 car lengths on take off from lights but I sat behind him at about 160-170 clicks without any trouble. My car is nearly completely stock. Subaru had huge exhaust and was manual ofcourse. ;)STi comes with a decent size cannon, stock so chances are being a new model it was unmodified. From the lights they'll always have the advantage with AWD but not so with a rolling start. Then it's on.

Otherwise, because of the advantage they have as we all know it's not really worth taking them on at the lights unless you've got a nice stretch of road where you can really let the LS1 open up and pick up the slack from a slower launch. It's not worth punishing your clutch to try and match them if it's a short sprint that stays close to the limit. God knows they're never far from frying their own clutch and gearbox on a given day. My plan for '05 is to go the S/C or T/C route complete with a ceramic clutch capable of more of a beating so I'd be more inclined to play the WRX game off the mark. It's all good fun.

[Merlin]

Its not really that surprising at all – it has been like this since the dawn of the performance car.

Insert American/Australian car here – big engine, big car, cheap - built for straight line acceleration. Stopping and steering are not high priorities.

Insert Euro car here – small engine, small car – built for winding, twisty tiny roads. Still possess good acceleration though, but expensive in terms of bang for your bucks.

The Porsche is about engineering excellence, euro style, badge credibility ect. ect. You cannot put your finger on any one thing why it is a great car. It just is.

Its hard to put into words but its like comparing apples to oranges. Its no secret that an SS is fast in a straight line (especially the recent models) and its no secret that a Porsche costs 4-5 times as much. BUT a Porsche is a Porsche and Commodore/Falcon is a Commodore/Falcon.

Its like comparing a carton of VB to a $400 bottle of red wine – they both get you equally plastered but there is a certain sophistication about one of them.

Do I Get the whole Euro thing? Not really – An SS has equal performance at a fraction of the price so wouldn’t it be a sensible decision to buy the SS – yep – except buying cars is not about sensible decisions (for people like us ie car enthusiasts), that’s why people buy HSVs (not that much faster, BUT it’s a HSV not a Holden).

Anyway congrats on the win – I just cant figure why people think its so hard to believe, a 5.7L V8 is a 5.7 V8 it ain’t rocket science that its going to be quick!



Think about it this way. Could you imagine say a woman's reaction as a passenger in that Porsche

Yeah it was probably: “Darling, why is this uncivilised barbarian overtaking you in that noisy contraption” Life Lesson 101 - Women aren’t like men – they don’t care which car is faster – they care which car they look better in.

[myles]

They must want a car to match the colour of their handbag eh? :lol:

But it's not just women. Off the topic, I still have a run-around car which is an absolute piece of crap but served me well while I was a student at uni. I couldn't believe the day a mate of mine illustrated the familiar trait of ''always wanting to look good' many women seem to possess.

Being around the age of 20, broke student without a car and having only a few cents to his name but needing to be dropped up the road, he replied, 'the SS or this car?'. As I opened the rusted door and started the mighty 1.6 lt engine, his response was 'nah I'll walk'.

And that he did (the ungrateful sack of sh!t). :lol:

[Red CV8 R]

I'm not saying driver skill didn't play a role but surely you'd expect a $200K Porsche to beat a stock SS in a dead straight line even if driver X was better than driver Y. I am curious to find out whether the 996 was tiptronic or manual but at the end of the day the Porsche should have come out on top regardless. As someone else said, a win is a win... even as a passenger it was an exciting 10 seconds seeing a Porsche at full tilt not being able to pull away from us. I'm pretty sure a lot of guys here in the same situation would have felt the same way.

Also keep in mind when quoting listed performance figures that the Porsche may not have been in 100% tip top condition, my mate has a 2.5 litre BMW 3 series and having a bit of fun one night he was all over me and now tells everyone how his car can whip Gen 3s. The problem was I was having issues with the car that caused a bit of an emabarrasing performance from my car. Not one to offer excuses after my initial comments to that affect I keep my mouth shut when he braggs to everyone. :o

[dominik]

Yeah it was probably: “Darling, why is this uncivilised barbarian overtaking you in that noisy contraption” Life Lesson 101 - Women aren’t like men – they don’t care which car is faster – they care which car they look better in.It could also have been... "honey, how much did you say you paid for this car?" Sure she wants to look good in it. And she'd have looked better if we were looking at the tail lights of that Porsche.

Merlin, I wasn't expecting to spark such a deep philosophical discussion with a story about a street drag that Mr. Porsche wanted.

Nobody here, and most definitely not myself, is denying the fact a Porsche is a true performance car in every respect. I simply recalled the events of a night where a stock LS1 (btw, what's the name of this forum again?) held its own against a 996 in a straight line. Nothing more, nothing less. If you've got $200,000 to plonk down on a ride, that's great. I don't. Do I live a miserable life regretting that fact? Absolutely not. I'm still in my 20s and there's plenty of time to make that step.

I think we've established why he couldn't pull ahead and that was due to the 996 being an auto. Had Myles done a measly (by comparison to the cost of a Porsche) $5K worth of mods and not had me weighing down his SS as a passenger, I'm willing to put $1000 on the table as a wager that he would have pulled the same trick on a 996 manual.

Anyway congrats on the win – I just cant figure why people think its so hard to believe, a 5.7L V8 is a 5.7 V8 it ain’t rocket science that its going to be quick!

Thanks, but I wasn't driving this time... the credit goes to someone else. It's not rocket science that a 5.7L V8 can generate a lot of power but you're selling the LS1 package short when comparing it to the Porsche: modest price, low cost of mods, etc. Also keep in mind the distinct weight disadvantage (300kg+) of our sedans compared to a small Porsche coupe or WRX. Cubic inches or forced induction is required to equalize this... choose your poison.

Insert American/Australian car here – big engine, big car, cheap - built for straight line acceleration. Stopping and steering are not high priorities.
Insert Euro car here – small engine, small car – built for winding, twisty tiny roads. Still possess good acceleration though, but expensive in terms of bang for your bucks.

I love the Euro stuff so you're preaching to the choir here buddy :) But let's not lose sight of the big picture... it's horses for courses. How many winding alpine roads have you been on lately? Over here where it's hot, most of the country is desert and outback, and the humidity is often ridiculously high (at least in this state)... these cars, like their American counterparts, are best suited to our conditions. The M3, RS6, SL65, 911, etc. were designed for German conditions, just as the Japanese cars were designed for Japanese conditions. I wish people would focus on this fact more often when comparing all these vehicles.

Its like comparing a carton of VB to a $400 bottle of red wine – they both get you equally plastered but there is a certain sophistication about one of them.

Okay, we'll talk beer. Let me put it this way...

When I'm eating Thai food, bring on the Singha. At a nightclub,Heineken, Stella, Becks, even Corona, it's all fine. Down the local pub having a cheap steak... anything on tap is fine by me. Watching the football? Once again, couldn't give a shit what's in the plastic cup as long as I can get to my seat without spilling it. There are times when some of the more refined local stuff, say a Coopers, Boags, James Squire, is every bit as satisfying for me as a Pilsner Urquell. It could be seasonal too. Hot summer's day and you feel like Hoegaarden... cold winter's night a fine Belgian strong ale, Westvleteren, Duval, etc. with all their complex fruity overtones, but hey I can't drink that stuff all the time. Is this making any sense?

Here in Australia, on our roads in these conditions, straight line performance is important to me, as is having an uncomplicated engine with a lot of grunt.

[Merlin]

It could also have been... "honey, how much did you say you paid for this car?" Sure she wants to look good in it. And she'd have looked better if we were looking at the tail lights of that Porsche.

Merlin, I wasn't expecting to spark such a deep philosophical discussion with a story about a street drag that Mr. Porsche wanted.

Nobody here, and most definitely not myself, is denying the fact a Porsche is a true performance car in every respect. I simply recalled the events of a night where a stock LS1 (btw, what's the name of this forum again?) held its own against a 996 in a straight line. Nothing more, nothing less. If you've got $200,000 to plonk down on a ride, that's great. I don't. Do I live a miserable life regretting that fact? Absolutely not. I'm still in my 20s and there's plenty of time to make that step.

I think we've established why he couldn't pull ahead and that was due to the 996 being an auto. Had Myles done a measly (by comparison to the cost of a Porsche) $5K worth of mods and not had me weighing down his SS as a passenger, I'm willing to put $1000 on the table as a wager that he would have pulled the same trick on a 996 manual.

Anyway congrats on the win – I just cant figure why people think its so hard to believe, a 5.7L V8 is a 5.7 V8 it ain’t rocket science that its going to be quick!

Thanks, but I wasn't driving this time... the credit goes to someone else. It's not rocket science that a 5.7L V8 can generate a lot of power but you're selling the LS1 package short when comparing it to the Porsche: modest price, low cost of mods, etc. Also keep in mind the distinct weight disadvantage (300kg+) of our sedans compared to a small Porsche coupe or WRX. Cubic inches or forced induction is required to equalize this... choose your poison.

Insert American/Australian car here – big engine, big car, cheap - built for straight line acceleration. Stopping and steering are not high priorities.
Insert Euro car here – small engine, small car – built for winding, twisty tiny roads. Still possess good acceleration though, but expensive in terms of bang for your bucks.

I love the Euro stuff so you're preaching to the choir here buddy :) But let's not lose sight of the big picture... it's horses for courses. How many winding alpine roads have you been on lately? Over here where it's hot, most of the country is desert and outback, and the humidity is often ridiculously high (at least in this state)... these cars, like their American counterparts, are best suited to our conditions. The M3, RS6, SL65, 911, etc. were designed for German conditions, just as the Japanese cars were designed for Japanese conditions. I wish people would focus on this fact more often when comparing all these vehicles.

Its like comparing a carton of VB to a $400 bottle of red wine – they both get you equally plastered but there is a certain sophistication about one of them.

Okay, we'll talk beer. Let me put it this way...

When I'm eating Thai food, bring on the Singha. At a nightclub,Heineken, Stella, Becks, even Corona, it's all fine. Down the local pub having a cheap steak... anything on tap is fine by me. Watching the football? Once again, couldn't give a shit what's in the plastic cup as long as I can get to my seat without spilling it. There are times when some of the more refined local stuff, say a Coopers, Boags, James Squire, is every bit as satisfying for me as a Pilsner Urquell. It could be seasonal too. Hot summer's day and you feel like Hoegaarden... cold winter's night a fine Belgian strong ale, Westvleteren, Duval, etc. with all their complex fruity overtones, but hey I can't drink that stuff all the time. Is this making any sense?

Here in Australia, on our roads in these conditions, straight line performance is important to me, as is having an uncomplicated engine with a lot of grunt.

Mate, I think you read my post wrong - I was actually agreeing with you ;)

[dominik]

Mate, I think you read my post wrong - I was actually agreeing with you ;)Great. So whose shout is it for the :beer:? Or are you a $400 bottle of wine guy? :)

[Merlin]

Great. So whose shout is it for the :beer:? Or are you a $400 bottle of wine guy? :)

pfffttt....I'll have a schooner of New please :cool:

[NinetySix]

Its like comparing a carton of VB to a $400 bottle of red wine

yeah, ones overpriced!

no, im not talking about the wine... i could never bring myself to pay $37.99 for a slab of VB :spew: carlton draught on the other hand is very drinkable :beer: pity its a smidgen weaker than VB..

special occasions i could handle paying about $60 for a slab of coopers special old ale "extra strong" 7.5% ... deeee-lish!

[Merlin]

yeah, ones overpriced!

no, im not talking about the wine... i could never bring myself to pay $37.99 for a slab of VB :spew: carlton draught on the other hand is very drinkable :beer: pity its a smidgen weaker than VB..

special occasions i could handle paying about $60 for a slab of coopers special old ale "extra strong" 7.5% ... deeee-lish!

Cascade Premium is also pretty tasty (the one with the tassie tiger on the bottle)

[dominik]

Cascade Premium is also pretty tasty (the one with the tassie tiger on the bottle)Yeah, it's not bad. Boag's Premium is even better.


special occasions i could handle paying about $60 for a slab of coopers special old ale "extra strong" 7.5% ... deeee-lish!Coopers is great stuff. Best Aussie beer in my book. Dark Ale in winter, Sparkling Ale in summer, and Pale Ale with a nice meal. Love the Extra Strong stuff too. Anyone overseas who reckons we can't brew a good ale hasn't tried Coopers. :beer:

[Elite SS]

How the hell did this topic go from a SS taking a Porshe to the price of a case of beer.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You guy's know this is a ls1 forum, not a woolworths catalogue.....

[dominik]

How the hell did this topic go from a SS taking a Porshe to the price of a case of beer.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You guy's know this is a ls1 forum, not a woolworths catalogue.....Woolworths sells beer? You mean that homebrew kit stuff or is there a hidden isle with bottled grog I haven't found yet??? :confused:

Ask Merlin about the topic... he likened the Commodore SS to a VB stubbie and the Porsche to a $400 bottle of wine :) Then I chimed in with some beer metaphors of my own and this is where we ended up. Talking :beer: until someone decides to race a Porsche and tell us about it :cool:

[Merlin]

Woolworths sells beer? You mean that homebrew kit stuff or is there a hidden isle with bottled grog I haven't found yet??? :confused:

Ask Merlin about the topic... he likened the Commodore SS to a VB stubbie and the Porsche to a $400 bottle of wine :) Then I chimed in with some beer metaphors of my own and this is where we ended up. Talking :beer: until someone decides to race a Porsche and tell us about it :cool:

NSW has Woolworths Liquor shops attached to most Woolworths supermarkets

[dominik]

NSW has Woolworths Liquor shops attached to most Woolworths supermarketsI heard about that but where is it available on the supermarket shelves... only VIC and ACT? As for bottle shops connected to Woolworths, etc., I'm pretty sure to sell alcohol up here you need some kind of hotel license which surely isn't issued to supermarkets. I guess that's why they haven't been able to crack into Queensland's market... yet. I'll bet behind the scenes Woolworths is working hard on it. Anyway, to be honest, I don't want to see it on the supermarket shelves here, ever... it's just, wrong. The bottle shops are never more than 20 paces from the supermarket anyway. That's good enough for me.

[Peter B - CV8]

I heard about that but where is it available on the supermarket shelves... only VIC and ACT? As for bottle shops connected to Woolworths, etc., I'm pretty sure to sell alcohol up here you need some kind of hotel license which surely isn't issued to supermarkets. I guess that's why they haven't been able to crack into Queensland's market... yet. I'll bet behind the scenes Woolworths is working hard on it. Anyway, to be honest, I don't want to see it on the supermarket shelves here, ever... it's just, wrong. The bottle shops are never more than 20 paces from the supermarket anyway. That's good enough for me.


Mate, they are not within the actual store - usually in adjoining shop & sometimes with an interconnecting entrance. I agree with your thoughts ie about not wanting to see grog aisle in the actual supermarket.

[dominik]

Mate, they are not within the actual store - usually in adjoining shop & sometimes with an interconnecting entrance. I agree with your thoughts ie about not wanting to see grog aisle in the actual supermarket.I typed in a few keywords and found this report (http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,11365792%255E1702,00.html). It says exactly you said but that they're working hard behind the scenes to make it available in the wrong way, initially as a trial. I hope they're not successful, no matter how convenient a lot of people will think it is. And ditto for up here with a separate checkout or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I like the stuff, but when I'm shopping for milk, bread, etc. I don't want my brain seeing all those alluring beer bottle labels... I'd rather visit a separate store to buy it because a lot of the time I'm in a hurry after buying groceries and just walk past the liquor joints on the way to the car. That can be a blessing in disguise for a lot of people.

[NinetySix]

Coopers is great stuff. Best Aussie beer in my book. Dark Ale in winter, Sparkling Ale in summer, and Pale Ale with a nice meal. Love the Extra Strong stuff too. Anyone overseas who reckons we can't brew a good ale hasn't tried Coopers. :beer:
I used to live off sparkling ale, but found some alarming variation in some of the batches... you have to gently roll them before drinking them, but if they were vigorously shaken they would taste horrible, and the last few slabs of it that i bought all tasted like they had literally fallen off the back of a truck :confused: since then i swapped to carlton draught and havnt looked back till i saw a lone $3.80 stubby of the extra strong stuff and it really rekindled something ;)

havnt seen sparkling ale on special for $39-42 lately tho, cant bring myself to pay $52 for it :eek: being a first year apprentice, dan murphies pretty much dictates what i drink by what it puts on special :p


now, back to porches... uhmm... i got nothin' :p

[dominik]

I used to live off sparkling ale, but found some alarming variation in some of the batches... you have to gently roll them before drinking them, but if they were vigorously shaken they would taste horrible, and the last few slabs of it that i bought all tasted like they had literally fallen off the back of a truck :confused: since then i swapped to carlton draught and havnt looked back till i saw a lone $3.80 stubby of the extra strong stuff and it really rekindled something ;)

havnt seen sparkling ale on special for $39-42 lately tho, cant bring myself to pay $52 for it :eek: being a first year apprentice, dan murphies pretty much dictates what i drink by what it puts on special :p

now, back to porches... uhmm... i got nothin' :pI was up the coast for a couple of nights... I returned to find 3 pages of updated threads. Busy place.

re: Coopers, the cloudy sediment from top fermentation and a lack of filtering is like a trademark :) I agree there's a bit of inconsistency at times but that's what makes it such a classic. I've poured a glass of extra strong vintage ale from a case that's tasted okay and then poured another from the same batch a year later and it's tasted twice as good. It's very interesting :beer:

No new Porsche stories here either :burnout:

[NinetySix]

yeah i dont mind the sediment as long as its correctly rolled ... really have to try a coopers again some day! but they wernt on special ... ~$16 for a 6 pack .... bah!

i got 3 carlton draught long necks for $10 instead :lol: drinking one out of a brown paper bag now... sucks to be poor ;)

[davrin]

I've got a few tales to tell about racing other performance vehicles. Last
year I took my C4B equipped GTS Coupe to Sandown for a training session.
Basically its a track day with the instructors riding on for a couple of
laps saying where you need to improve. Bear in mind that my GTS is stock
and I was running on street tyres (BIG MISTAKE)

There were a few high performance vehicules on that day including a
Subaru WRX, STi, Ford XR6T, Porsche Boxter, Corvette, Cobra, Skyline GTR
and a couple of highly modified LS1s (Monaro, GTO) among others. In the
straight lines on Sandown, I managed to pass the Porsche and the XR6T
as if they were standing still (Man that felt good). On the front straight
just before Turn1, I dragged the Corvette, was catching him up but had
to brake to do the turn. As for the Subarus, on the turns cannot beat them
but on the straights, they could hardly keep up. Always though the STi was
a faster car than it really is in a straight line. And from a standing start (we
even had a small race with everyone) I dragged an Rx7 and won (I had
traction control on just for the take-off). The only cars that shit
all over me were these highly modified V8s and they were running on
sleeks. Just as a note the guy in the Skyline GTR blew his turbos while
trying to keep up with these V8s. As they say when the going gets
tough (blasting the car all day long), the riceboys will end up blowing
something. Nothing beats pure grunt...

Just my 2 cents

Richard

[dominik]

Sounds like you had a lot of fun out there. What year is the GTS and do you have any mods planned for it?

Not that the LS1s don't have their own little quirks and issues, but there's nothing like an uncomplicated engine with a lot of grunt like you said. Less to go wrong.

[davrin]

Sounds like you had a lot of fun out there. What year is the GTS and do you have any mods planned for it?

Not that the LS1s don't have their own little quirks and issues, but there's nothing like an uncomplicated engine with a lot of grunt like you said. Less to go wrong.

Sure had a lot of fun on that day, but my car needs a few mods for it
to perform better. First of all race tyres (I almost cooked up my road
tyres on the day) and then harder suspensions. I could feel the GTS
wobble each time I went through the dip on the back straight. The car
was doing around 200km/h at that stage

The GTS is a 2003 model. Apart from these mods, I was thinking of
doing up the exhaust for a better V8 note

This time was the second time I went for a track day at Sandown
(the first time I did not take part). The frist time an XR6T blew up
his turbo as well. It simply shows that for turbo equipped cars, you
need to be more careful with how much you can push it all day

Richard