When are we going to have a PCM diagnosics section?

[SSbaby]

As great as this forum is, it would be even greater if we had our own tuning section, relating specifically to the cars we drive. There are many members here (I'm sure) who would benefit especially owners who have cams, blowers etc...

I know it's a sensitive issue but I'm sure that we can be civil enough to discuss these topics without any slander. I know for a fact that there are owners who are basically happy with their tune but want better driveability and refinement. These things are often discussed in private but I believe it would be of great value if the information was shared publicly.

I know that Delco often browses other forums helping people in need but the main Australian LS1 audience resides here. How about it? :D

[debencha]

good idea .

[johnv]

Would be good in the private section. ;)

[SSbaby]

BTW, if the Mods see fit to create such a section, might I suggest something structured, for example...

General
Beginner's Guide
Advanced Discussions
Idle Tuning
Part Throttle Tuning (LTFT)
WOT Tuning (PE vs RPM etc)
Timing Tuning
Transmission/Torque Management
Binary Files
etc...


At least this way it won't get messy with threads everywhere and it will be easy to maintain. ;)

[debencha]

would have to be heavily moderated i would assume.also prob have to protect tuners/sponsers and discourage sharing of there tunes?although everthing car is different..perhaps should be kept to basics for that reason..

[Justice R8]

Why dont we just ask all the good tuners to give free lessons on how to tune. They could run free workshops on how to tune.

1st weeks free lessons How to use edit
2nd weeks free lessons How to use HP tuners
3rd weeks free lessons How to use Kalmaker

We could even extend it to how to build a stroker!


Then we could run a course for the good tuners
How did you send yourself broke?

Remember guys like Sam, Tuna, Delco etc have spent a lot of time and money developing their knowledge to levels they are at now. Each time they help someone they create another competitor to their shop.

I think it is a bit rich to ask the people that help fund this site to give up their intellectual property to those that want to play with tuning.

Hey. Ive gort a hammer, some nails and a piece of wood. I might ring Masterton homes and ask them to teach me to build a house. I dont think so.

[Justice R8]

I know for a fact that there are owners who are basically happy with their tune but want better driveability and refinement.

Pay to play. Go to somebody that knows what they are doing and you dont have those drivability issues.

[SSbaby]

Why dont we just ask all the good tuners to give free lessons on how to tune. They could run free workshops on how to tune.

1st weeks free lessons How to use edit
2nd weeks free lessons How to use HP tuners
3rd weeks free lessons How to use Kalmaker

We could even extend it to how to build a stroker!


Then we could run a course for the good tuners
How did you send yourself broke?

Remember guys like Sam, Tuna, Delco etc have spent a lot of time and money developing their knowledge to levels they are at now. Each time they help someone they create another competitor to their shop.

I think it is a bit rich to ask the people that help fund this site to give up their intellectual property to those that want to play with tuning.

Hey. Ive gort a hammer, some nails and a piece of wood. I might ring Masterton homes and ask them to teach me to build a house. I dont think so.


OK, to answer your concern(s), Justice, we'll leave out the section on binary files. Does that make you happy? I just offered an example of the structure I proposed.

If there is good reason why such a section will not be created, it's posts like yours that do nothing for people out there who actually have an interest in tinkering with tuning tools.

[SSbaby]

Pay to play. Go to somebody that knows what they are doing and you dont have those drivability issues.

And I suppose you can guarantee with certainty that Tuner A is better than Tuner B. Therefore, we should all take our LS1s to Tuner A... and that would solve all our problems.

Sorry Justice but I don't live in fairy tales. This is the real world.

[PepeLePew]

To be fair Justice there are people on here (not me) who could certainly use what Tonys' proposing. For those who have actually gone out and bought software Im sure would love it, and quite honestly, I wouldnt mind reading it either....

I know what Tonys barking at too.....it'd be nice to say 'I have X problem with my car at Y point, anyone else experienced this problem?', and be able to ask whether the respondents be tuners or homeboys.

But yeah, in the private section would make sense, though its hard to tell how private that is these days....these posts are splattered all over the forum anyway so why not put them in one place where little minds like mine can make some sense of it all....

There are sep forums out there for most of the tuning packages, but hey would it be so bad to have one place where ppl using different packages can bang heads in an organized fashion?

[dean]

http://www.ls1tuning.com/iboard/

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl

[RIDE:42]

i just took the ute to SAM`s and ask for a tune and as the springs were farked got them and a baby cam :cool: over 12 months ago
but i only wanted it done once and not have to get touch up tunes and worry about all the problems some have as i live 1000km away :p
and it still dose a LOW 12 on street legal tyres

[SSbaby]

http://www.ls1tuning.com/iboard/

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl

Yes, I regularly peruse those forums but what about a local one? That's why we have ls1.com.au... otherwise we should just be happy with ls1.com... we also drive Commodores, not Y-bodies...

What I'm proposing is a self-contained, quick-reference tuning section. This site is for LS1 Holden enthusiasts, so what's wrong with having our own tuning forum? It could be tailored to the end user rather than the expert tuner? Dunno, just offering suggestions and guaging opinions... so far not one moderator has chimed in. :confused:

Pepe hit the nail on the head with his comments. ;)

[HRT Stroker]

My 2c personally.........

Dean has hit the nail on the head guys. Most of the software suppliers offer help forums to swap ideas and trouble shoot between "amatuer" tuners. Going from past threads this sort of thing would be a full on shitfight between those in the know and those who think they know and would more likely result in more arguements being put forward than answers. :rolleyes:

The idea IS a good one though. :thumbsup:

The relevant technical sections are the place to ask the questions and swap ideas between those who are prepared to share, although obviously Justice's comments stand for the guys who make a living from tuning, telling everyone how its done is not going to help their bank balance........

It should be said too that tuning is something that should be embarked on extremely carefully and with the understanding that you take total responsibility for potentially hand grenading your cars driveline, which is as simple as one "finger error" in the software innocently done - BOOM. :bawl:

Both the LS and Holden technical sections can be used to ask these questions for those in the DIY tuning side of things.

Perhaps trialling some of these questions in the tech sections and guaging the response may give the Mods and the Owner some idea of how successful such a section would be over time??

Thanks for the ideas though, that's what makes the forum great!!!!! :yup:

[Mongy]

and it still dose a LOW 12 on street legal tyresAnd not to mention terrorising those XR6T drivers :lol:
Sorry, just trying to lighten it up a bit!

[seldo]

................

....Then we could run a course for the good tuners
How did you send yourself broke?

Remember guys like Sam, Tuna, Delco etc have spent a lot of time and money developing their knowledge to levels they are at now. Each time they help someone they create another competitor to their shop.

I think it is a bit rich to ask the people that help fund this site to give up their intellectual property to those that want to play with tuning.
..............



Justice makes a very valid point. It is hardly fair to ask the blokes who make a living out of it to give up their intellectual secrets so some people who want to cut them out of the equation are able to side-step the professionals.
I suspect that some of the tuners make a very tidy living out fixing other people's stuff-ups. And why not? They'd be mad to offer any meaningful contribution to the proposed section. Why should they offer their hard-won secrets to you and me for free???? That's how they feed their family.
Sorry, I know that the idea is well intentioned but I would suspect that the only persons contributing would be back-yarders whose input could be very questionable and could have some expensive consequences...
I think I'll continue to take mine to the pro's. I'll continue to do what I'm good at and pay them to show their expertise for me. ;)

[SSbaby]

We know that the sponsors of this site are a credit to our LS1 community. They're all good blokes who do a great job and continue to make us LS1 owners very, very proud(as RIDE:42 has implied) ;)

Now to tread carefully...

But let's be realistic, sometimes, we, as owners have some questions to ask of others when things aren't 100% perfect - a forum serves no purpose if it does not provide good value to its members. Members of this forum are afraid to ask the pertinent questions in case the sh!t hits the fan... as it does here from time to time. ;) But why should this be the case when we are very open about other technical issues and then offer helpful suggestions? What we should vehemently discourage is slander, as we do anyway. Sponsors pay good money to advertise on this site. Consequently, they reap rewards when members here become patrons. The PCM is just another component of the engine - if you could take your cam to your mechanic mate to install for you as a favour, why wouldn't you? - some of us know how to install a cam without threatening the work of any of our sponsors.

It's about working together as a community, not stepping on people's toes. If we're quiet about some of our issues, then we're helping noone. And that's all some of us ask for, just some direction, not to put tuners or sponsors out of business.

I hope I haven't been misconstrued with any of my comments. Maybe the sponsors should be consulted first before the forum takes steps to expand? Dunno, I just have the best interests of the LS1 community at heart.

[SSbaby]

Justice makes a very valid point. It is hardly fair to ask the blokes who make a living out of it to give up their intellectual secrets so some people who want to cut them out of the equation are able to side-step the professionals.
I suspect that some of the tuners make a very tidy living out fixing other people's stuff-ups. And why not? They'd be mad to offer any meaningful contribution to the proposed section. Why should they offer their hard-won secrets to you and me for free???? That's how they feed their family.
Sorry, I know that the idea is well intentioned but I would suspect that the only persons contributing would be back-yarders whose input could be very questionable and could have some expensive consequences...
I think I'll continue to take mine to the pro's. I'll continue to do what I'm good at and pay them to show their expertise for me. ;)

seldo,

Justice is barking up the wrong tree. He responded to a proposal only. We don't need to go down that road.

Cheers

[HRT Stroker]

Like I stated SSbaby, give it a go in the regualr tech sections or Private sections and see if it takes off........

[debencha]

Like I stated SSbaby, give it a go in the regualr tech sections or Private sections and see if it takes off........
perhaps just keep it to diagnostics to start and stay away from flux capacitors as in another thread..(tuning interest)...no one wants to the sponsors out of buisness but as in my case pt is 500k's away..been to some of the other tuning forums and well,somes good somes rubish....perhaps let the sponsors decide..just how hitech it gets...without the sponsors there wont be a forum such as this one... :)

[Justice R8]

OK, to answer your concern(s), Justice, we'll leave out the section on binary files. Does that make you happy? I just offered an example of the structure I proposed.

If there is good reason why such a section will not be created, it's posts like yours that do nothing for people out there who actually have an interest in tinkering with tuning tools.

Thats perfect. Let the tinkerers tinker and listen to people off the internet telling them how to tune a car. Ask your tuners how hard it was to learn the ins and outs of a cats assss about tuning and then and only then you will learn that backyard hacks should not be "Tinkering" as you call it. I can see it know, But joe blow told me to up the line pressures to xxx to do good second gear chirpies and now by gearbox is farked.

Buy your shit and learn how to use it. If you then blow the shit out of your car dont ask Holden to fix it. Tuning is very precise. One wrong key and boom.

Best advice for tuning a stocker is still do your reasearch, take it to a shop that has a good reputation and pay your money. Pay a proffessional. This saves you money in the long run.


And I suppose you can guarantee with certainty that Tuner A is better than Tuner B. Therefore, we should all take our LS1s to Tuner A... and that would solve all our problems.

I could guarantee that my tuner would outdo any backyard hack! Thats why he offers a money back guarantee if the customer is not happy with the tune. But still like all other tuners he has people that come in and try to tell him a better way because they read it on the internet.

You will notice I said in my quoted comment below not just my Tuner but others.


Remember guys like Sam, Tuna, Delco etc have spent a lot of time and money developing their knowledge to levels they are at now. Each time they help someone they create another competitor to their shop.

A section like this would be like Sams Cam R&D. Published in Street Machine suddenly everybody was an instant Cam expert with their XYZ 147 cam which still has comp branding when the cam is removed.

Tony buy your stuff and I wish you luck learning but sooner or later you will say to me I see what you meant. There are plenty of engines in graves from backyard tuners.


Justice makes a very valid point. It is hardly fair to ask the blokes who make a living out of it to give up their intellectual secrets so some people who want to cut them out of the equation are able to side-step the professionals.

Good point Seldo. And these same people that want this info for free will still expect shops like Tuner, Delco, Sam and G&D to make no money but still dump a shitload into R&D. Cant have your cake and eat it too. No R&D would mean we would all still be running 12's :D :D :D :D

How about we ask workshops to pay for the priviledge to work on our cars!

If people are not happy with their tune take it back to the tuner. Dont buy software to stuff it up yourself. None of the gun tuners are going to help. It will generally be somebody that is as lost as you trying to help. Blind leading the blind.

Just put your laptop in your car with an excel spreadsheet on the screen and pretend you are doing it. That will give you the wank factor of saying, "I am just touching the up the tune" when your next at the track. It would probably run better and save you the money in software. :lol:

Please remember. Just because you have a Tune, doesnt mean you never have to change plugs or leads ever again. This is a myth some often have.

Good luck and buy a magic wand whilst you are buying the software. I would like a dolloar for every time a home tune person either comes in or phones Sam to ask , How do I do this, or somebody on a forum said this.

Had my rant.

[MNR-0]

I agree with a "VCM Diagnostics and Programming" section. http://www.LS1Tech.com provide one and its an valuable source of information for all sorts of things. They post advice on some things that from my experience most Tuners in OZ ignore.

What are people really afraid of? Tuning is just ONE aspect of the LS1. Workshops that base their entire existence on tuning V8s probably have a poor business plan.

Read what they post on http://www.LS1Tech.com. Its not that anti-competetive against workshops at all.

This forum should exist primarily for the benefit of its members and everyday LS1 enthusiasts, not its sponsors.

[SSbaby]

Whoa there, Justice. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating to people to ditch their favoured tuner in preference to DIY tunes. Besides, you're making an assumption that people who don't tune for a living are not worthy of offering an opinion on something they might very well be cluey about. I could mention several names from this forum. And you probably know who they are. :)

So what do you say for tuners who have worked on an tune and delivered it to the customer only to have it returned again and again for additional PCM tweaks because the original tune wasn't quite right? This isn't a attack on their handywork or reputation, it's the reality of a commercial world we all live in - a tuner faces the task of having to do the best job possible given the time-constraints and cost involved.

Don't you think it would be advantageous for an LS1 owner to discuss any tuning related queries they might have openly, to understand how certain PCM tables affect an engine's characteristics? I personally find it all bizarre that the most often discussed topic on these forums (LS1 Edit/tune) is never discussed when a customer has issues. Yet we're all too quick to recommend to that person who they should take their LS1 to to get the job done. How about some constructive feedback for the benefit of other forum members who might be considering the same deal, the pros and cons?

Let's face it, tuning topics are discussed in private, so why not make the discussion public so that we could all benefit? It's like anything else on the car, some things work for some, but fail for others. No two engines are the same and neither is each tune. On that basis, there would be a certain percentage of tunes that would require special attention. From a customer's perspective, a little understanding goes a long way.

I think I've stated my case without stepping on anyone's toes. What we need to do is to set up an anonymous poll to guage people's opinions on this subject.

[gameover]

The art of DIY is exactly that, knowing when you can DIY and when you can't. Some people learn the hard way and others take a more careful cobber approach. In the end you need to be sure the blame rests with yourself, although in this day and age it is all too common for people to try and blame someone else for their stupidy.

In the PCM there are a lot of things you happily mess with without fear of 8 pistons whacking the underside of the bonnet when you drop it into gear. eg. fan temps, gear ratios, shift lights, tire sizes, A4 shift speeds, DFCO, AC WOT disables, keyoff fan timers etc. For some people this is all they are after, its amazing how many people just love the fact they can watch the numbers, squiggily lines and lights on the scanner as the engine runs, the revs change and the gears shift. Some folks will happily let a tuner play with the go fast engine stuff and only touch the stuff they are confident they understand, its very common and in this world of "that there black box makes her tick" i think people who wanna know should be encouraged.

Anyway, i probably typed too much already...

:cheers:

[SSbaby]

Just to clarify one other point that I forgot to add in the wee hours of the night :sleep: I'm very happy with my HPF tune. Their customer service is excellent and Rob is a down to earth guy who looks after his customers. I'm sure a lot of tuners are the same.

Hypothetically speaking, if I were 97% satisfied with my tune, would I expect my tuner to spend another two solid days working on my PCM and test driving my vehicle to try and iron out the remaining 3% I have intermittent issues with? Absolutely not! The conditions and environment, from the moment you cold start your engine to the time you drop your vehicle off to your tuner (to have your issue(s) diagnosed) are totally different and the problems experienced are possibly non-existent under the changed conditions. You can't blame the poor tuner for that, surely?

Again, the idea behind the creation is not to destabilise the forum. In my opinion, I would encourage the customer get a proper tune done on their vehicle with any of the forum sponsors or non-sponsors. For any outstanding issues, the tuner should be given a chance to rectify the issues. Otherwise, there is a need for some guidance for the customer to be able to monitor and/or correct those issues.

We're all untimately responsible for the actions we take. We're also old enough to realise what's written on the internet is not necessarily cast in stone.

That is all.

[Justice R8]

Just to clarify one other point that I forgot to add in the wee hours of the night :sleep: I'm very happy with my HPF tune. Their customer service is excellent and Rob is a down to earth guy who looks after his customers. I'm sure a lot of tuners are the same.

Hypothetically speaking, if I were 97% satisfied with my tune, would I expect my tuner to spend another two solid days working on my PCM and test driving my vehicle to try and iron out the remaining 3% I have intermittent issues with? Absolutely not! The conditions and environment, from the moment you cold start your engine to the time you drop your vehicle off to your tuner (to have your issue(s) diagnosed) are totally different and the problems experienced are possibly non-existent under the changed conditions. You can't blame the poor tuner for that, surely?

Again, the idea behind the creation is not to destabilise the forum. In my opinion, I would encourage the customer get a proper tune done on their vehicle with any of the forum sponsors or non-sponsors. For any outstanding issues, the tuner should be given a chance to rectify the issues. Otherwise, there is a need for some guidance for the customer to be able to monitor and/or correct those issues.

We're all untimately responsible for the actions we take. We're also old enough to realise what's written on the internet is not necessarily cast in stone.

That is all.

Good point. If your only 97% satisfied either ask your tuner to fix it or ask him to teach you how to fix it.

[seldo]

The problem is that there are many computer geeks/gurus out there who would have a play with this with dire consequences. It is so easy to change a timing table without knowing or understanding the consequeces. I can see blokes thinking "When it was on the rollers the tuner got another 5kw by advancing the timing by 2deg so I'll give it another 10 - that ought to make to go". Or someone else will want to improve his fuel economy or increase his power so he'll take the AFRs to 15:1 ...:shock: It is all very well to be au fait with the PCM and the lap-top, but you also need to have the mechanical knowledge to understand the repercussions of that fatal key-stroke. Just remember, this time the buck stops with you... If you've leaned it out so far that you've melted several pistons, guess who is to blame and who has to pay. Remember, if you want to play, be prepared to pay!

[8throttlebodies]

I can see blokes thinking "When it was on the rollers the tuner got another 5kw by advancing the timing by 2deg so I'll give it another 10 - that ought to make to go". Or someone else will want to improve his fuel economy or increase his power so he'll take the AFRs to 15:1

This sort of stuff I would HOPE would only be done by people who haven't researched. ie.. Idiots.
Im not a tuner(FAR FROM IT ;) ) by any means, but even I know not to do that. ie. Timing by 10 or AFR up to 15:1.
Small changes is how to do it, with lots of data logging in between to gauge the changes.

The key is how to interpret the info to make the changes necessary. Thats the hard part for me.
The section would be a good idea, but probably unworkable due to the reasons people have stated above.

8tb

[PepeLePew]

But Seldo, back in yonder days I used to muscle my dizzy around to do exactly that. :) The old 351 loved 10 degrees at idle.......

I know what you guys mean, but hey, no one is asking tuners to participate, no one says they will. But I do find it limiting that people assume you will be stupid about it. Im not going to as I dont have the funds, but I WOULD get my own gear if I could afford it, if only to understand better what makes my car tick. Caution is in the hand of the operator no matter what the mod (and hey isnt editing a mod?)

As SSBaby said there are people on here who may not approach the knowledge of the tuners, but they arent stupid either. I dont think anyone would suggest they dont know what they're doing. I reckon THEY would be happy to contribute, and thats what Tony is likely looking for....HRT Stokers suggestion sounds like the go. Fly or die! :)

[gameover]

if you think you know what you're doing and you really don't then thats a recipe for disaster for sure. But then again people like that get behind the wheel of a car everyday and some even race on tracks too...

[seldo]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that there aren't plenty of people on here who could benefit from this. But at the same time from some of the posts I read I reckon that there are plenty of members who are keyboard gurus who would get them selves into real strife. As they say, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"... It's like when I was about 12 I decided to hot-up the old man's Victa by giving it a port'n'polish. I opened up the transfer ports which of course was like putting a huge cam in a 4 stroke...it was hard to start, wouldn't idle and had no guts until it it had about 10,000rpm on the clock and then it was just unstoppable!..:lol: ...a little knowledge etc...

[SSbaby]

For validated members only, I've set up a poll on this topic. Please register your vote (the poll is anonymous) and have your say...
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=33937

PS. As a matter of interest, EFIlive with a relatively miniscule (but specialised) membership base are considering setting up such a forum...
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1122&highlight=

[Justice R8]

For validated members only, I've set up a poll on this topic. Please register your vote (the poll is anonymous) and have your say...
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=33937

PS. As a matter of interest, EFIlive with a relatively miniscule (but specialised) membership base are considering setting up such a forum...
http://www.efilive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1122&highlight=

That is great. Read it there. Dont waste server space for the minority.

Good luck

[PepeLePew]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that there aren't plenty of people on here who could benefit from this. But at the same time from some of the posts I read I reckon that there are plenty of members who are keyboard gurus who would get them selves into real strife. As they say, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"... It's like when I was about 12 I decided to hot-up the old man's Victa by giving it a port'n'polish. I opened up the transfer ports which of course was like putting a huge cam in a 4 stroke...it was hard to start, wouldn't idle and had no guts until it it had about 10,000rpm on the clock and then it was just unstoppable!..:lol: ...a little knowledge etc...

Any suggestions on how to hot up my Toro four stroke welcome :)

[cheffy]

Yeah, Drill the jets out and run it on methanol...

Don't laugh I've actually done it recently...

[seldo]

Yeah, Drill the jets out and run it on methanol...

Don't laugh I've actually done it recently...
:lol: I also did the 2 cyl 650cc diesel in the boat recently - made some chrome-moly pushrods, lightened the rockers, fitted needle-roller bearings, cleaned up the inlet manifold, ported the head, and wound-up the governor. Yeehaa! Goes like a ripper. Went from peak of 3600rpm to almost 6000, and from 15bhp to a guess of about 20!! Can almost ski behind the boat now (sailing cat)....weeeeelll...it's much better anyway...picked up 2knots..;)

[Mongy]

For such a "taboo" subject of discussion there are even books on it
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1884089844/qid=1105067264/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4114296-4668806?v=glance&s=books

[SSbaby]

That is great. Read it there. Dont waste server space for the minority.

Good luck

Well your post is a waste of space, innit? :p

Come to think of it, most of your posts are...

[Justice R8]

Well your post is a waste of space, innit? :p

Come to think of it, most of your posts are...
At least my posts are not either questions or expert advice without experience (internet expert advice)



Maybe but I help quite a few who dont want something for nothing, or sit and procrastinate.
My post said there are plenty of forums with tuning stuff. Go waste there server space.

I dont know why you are asking for a tuning section now for. It took you 2 years to decide on a cam that is just about a waste of time and effort fitting, it will take you another 5 years to make a decision on which tuning tool you use. See I can waste space if you want me too with useless shit

Try doing some testing and sharing results yourself instead of just sucking info as you always do. You are what most would consider an internet guru. Read all the posts and then suddenly an expert because you read it on the net. Remember forums are for contribution as well as taking. See I can do the insult thing too if you want to play that game as well

And why am I quite passionate about not another tuning forum. I have seen the results of internet experts giving advice based on what they once read and costing innocent people money. I dont want to see people stuff their cars then have to pay to fix what they stuff up.

I hope all tuners make heaps more money than they already have as it helps people like myself that are prepared to spend a dollar or two on the next new thing that they develop. Where would guys like markone, Dritz, Criso etc etc be if workshops didnt keep developing. Right where you are running about 13's. But these guys pay to play thats why they run quick.

In summary what you want for free is what these guys have paid for. Thats about it isnt it. :lol:

[Justice R8]

Sorry
I could be wrong. The poll says about 30 people want it out of 7000 members :D

And 25 of them probably only want it so they can read the shitfights when they start :lol:

[heavychevy]

oversize post.. deleting

1 OVERVIEW 5
1.1 SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS 5
1.2 WARNINGS AND OPERATOR RESPONSIBILITIES 5
1.2.1 Warnings 6
1.2.2 Important Usage Guidelines 6
2 GETTING STARTED 7

2.1 INSTALLING LS1_EDIT ON YOUR PC 7
2.2 LAUNCHING LS1_EDIT 7
2.3 OPENING A FILE 8
2.3.1 Main Window 9
2.3.2 Prom Type Window 9
2.3.3 Notepad 9
2.3.4 Error Messages 10
2.4 EDITING A FILE 10
2.5 EDITING TABLES 10
2.5.1 Table Edit 10
2.5.1.1 Edit Whole Table Frame 11
2.5.1.2 Compare File Frame 11
2.5.2 Graph View 13
2.5.3 Select Rows 14
2.6 SAVING A FILE 14
2.7 UNINSTALLING LS1_EDIT 14
3 TRANSMISSION CALIBRATION 16
3.1 SHIFT SPEED TAB 16
3.1.1 Shift Speed 17
3.1.2 WOT Shift Speed 17
3.1.3 Hot Shift Speed 17
3.1.4 Performance Shift Speed 17
3.1.5 WOT Shift RPM 17
3.1.6 Hot Shift RPM 17
3.1.7 Performance Shift RPM 17
3.2 SHIFT FIRMNESS TAB 17
3.2.1 Positive Pressure vs. Temp 18
3.3 TCC TAB 19
3.3.1 MPH vs. %TPS 20
3.3.2 Max vs. %TPS Release 20
3.3.3 TCC MPH thresholds 20
3.4 M6 CAGS/SKIP SHIFT 20
4 ENGINE CALIBRATION 22
4.1 IGNITION TAB 22
4.1.1 Spark Advance vs. RPM and Load 22
4.1.2 Base Spark 23
4.1.3 Spark Retard Limit 23
4.1.4 IAT – MAP Timing Adjustment 23
4.1.5 Knock Retard Frame 23
4.1.5.1 Attack vs. RPM – 23
4.1.5.2 Decay vs. RPM 23
4.1.5.3 Attack Gain vs. Temp 23
4.1.5.4 Attack gain vs. Altitude 23
4.1.5.5 Maximum Knock Retard vs Load 23
4.1.5.6 Maximum Knock Retard vs RPM 23
4.1.6 Knock Learn Gain Frame 23
4.1.6.1 Minimum MAP 23
4.1.6.2 Maximum RPM 23
4.1.6.3 Minimum RPM 23
4.1.6.4 Minimum Coolant Temp 23
4.1.6.5 Minimum Inlet Air Temp 24
4.1.6.6 Total Retard 24
4.1.7 Torque Management Frame 24
4.1.7.1 TCS Retard vs RPM 24
4.1.7.2 Torque Reduction 24
4.1.7.3 Maximum Torque 24
4.1.7.4 Abuse Mode Test 24
4.2 FUEL TAB 24
4.2.1 MAF 25
4.2.2 Injector Flow Rate 25
4.2.3 Volumetric Efficiency 26
4.2.4 Closed Loop Enable Temp 26
4.2.5 Fuel Pressure vs. Voltage 26
4.2.6 Injector Offset 26
4.2.7 Fuel Air Multiplier 26
4.2.8 Stoich Ratio 26
4.2.9 Cylinder Size 26
4.2.10 Max Allowed Enrichment 26
4.2.11 Power Enrichment 26
4.2.11.1 Temp 26
4.2.11.2 RPM 27
4.2.11.3 MAP to Enable 27
4.2.11.4 MAP Hysteresis 27
4.2.11.5 PE Delay 27
4.2.11.6 Wide Open Throttle 27
4.3 TEST PARAMETERS TAB 27
4.3.1 EGR Test Parameters 28
4.3.2 Air Pump 28
4.4 LIMITERS TAB 29
4.4.1 Idle Speed 29
4.4.2 Limiters 29
4.4.2.1 Rev Limit by Gear 30
4.4.2.2 Rev Limit By Temp 30
4.4.2.3 Rev Limit Delay 30
5 SYSTEM CALIBRATION 31
5.1.1 First Stage Fan 31
5.1.2 Second Stage Fan 31
5.1.3 Vehicle Anti-Theft - Toggle 31
6 SPEEDOMETER 32
6.1 GEAR_TIRE TAB 32
6.1.1 Current Gear and Tire Frame 32
6.1.2 New Tire Size Frame 32
6.1.3 New Gear Ratio 32
6.2 SPEED LIMITERS TAB 32
6.2.1 Limiters 33
7 ENGINE DIAGNOSTIC 34
7.1 WARNING TAB 34
7.2 HARDWARE DIAGNOSTICS TAB 35
7.2.1 Select Diagnostic Test 35
7.2.2 Enable Diagnostic Test 35
7.2.3 Does Error Set SES 35
7.3 TEST PARAMETER TAB 36
7.3.1 Misfire detection 37
APPENDIX B: LIST OF FIGURES 38



Nothing in it I reckon,plenty of pictures I' ll have a go in the morning

[heavychevy]

sorry cant delete the post. cut and paste went wrong, mods help to remove please

[Justice R8]

oversize post.. deleting

1 OVERVIEW 5
1.1 SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS 5
1.2 WARNINGS AND OPERATOR RESPONSIBILITIES 5
1.2.1 Warnings 6
1.2.2 Important Usage Guidelines 6
2 GETTING STARTED 7

2.1 INSTALLING LS1_EDIT ON YOUR PC 7
2.2 LAUNCHING LS1_EDIT 7
2.3 OPENING A FILE 8
2.3.1 Main Window 9
2.3.2 Prom Type Window 9
2.3.3 Notepad 9
2.3.4 Error Messages 10
2.4 EDITING A FILE 10
2.5 EDITING TABLES 10
2.5.1 Table Edit 10
2.5.1.1 Edit Whole Table Frame 11
2.5.1.2 Compare File Frame 11
2.5.2 Graph View 13
2.5.3 Select Rows 14
2.6 SAVING A FILE 14
2.7 UNINSTALLING LS1_EDIT 14
3 TRANSMISSION CALIBRATION 16
3.1 SHIFT SPEED TAB 16
3.1.1 Shift Speed 17
3.1.2 WOT Shift Speed 17
3.1.3 Hot Shift Speed 17
3.1.4 Performance Shift Speed 17
3.1.5 WOT Shift RPM 17
3.1.6 Hot Shift RPM 17
3.1.7 Performance Shift RPM 17
3.2 SHIFT FIRMNESS TAB 17
3.2.1 Positive Pressure vs. Temp 18
3.3 TCC TAB 19
3.3.1 MPH vs. %TPS 20
3.3.2 Max vs. %TPS Release 20
3.3.3 TCC MPH thresholds 20
3.4 M6 CAGS/SKIP SHIFT 20
4 ENGINE CALIBRATION 22
4.1 IGNITION TAB 22
4.1.1 Spark Advance vs. RPM and Load 22
4.1.2 Base Spark 23
4.1.3 Spark Retard Limit 23
4.1.4 IAT – MAP Timing Adjustment 23
4.1.5 Knock Retard Frame 23
4.1.5.1 Attack vs. RPM – 23
4.1.5.2 Decay vs. RPM 23
4.1.5.3 Attack Gain vs. Temp 23
4.1.5.4 Attack gain vs. Altitude 23
4.1.5.5 Maximum Knock Retard vs Load 23
4.1.5.6 Maximum Knock Retard vs RPM 23
4.1.6 Knock Learn Gain Frame 23
4.1.6.1 Minimum MAP 23
4.1.6.2 Maximum RPM 23
4.1.6.3 Minimum RPM 23
4.1.6.4 Minimum Coolant Temp 23
4.1.6.5 Minimum Inlet Air Temp 24
4.1.6.6 Total Retard 24
4.1.7 Torque Management Frame 24
4.1.7.1 TCS Retard vs RPM 24
4.1.7.2 Torque Reduction 24
4.1.7.3 Maximum Torque 24
4.1.7.4 Abuse Mode Test 24
4.2 FUEL TAB 24
4.2.1 MAF 25
4.2.2 Injector Flow Rate 25
4.2.3 Volumetric Efficiency 26
4.2.4 Closed Loop Enable Temp 26
4.2.5 Fuel Pressure vs. Voltage 26
4.2.6 Injector Offset 26
4.2.7 Fuel Air Multiplier 26
4.2.8 Stoich Ratio 26
4.2.9 Cylinder Size 26
4.2.10 Max Allowed Enrichment 26
4.2.11 Power Enrichment 26
4.2.11.1 Temp 26
4.2.11.2 RPM 27
4.2.11.3 MAP to Enable 27
4.2.11.4 MAP Hysteresis 27
4.2.11.5 PE Delay 27
4.2.11.6 Wide Open Throttle 27
4.3 TEST PARAMETERS TAB 27
4.3.1 EGR Test Parameters 28
4.3.2 Air Pump 28
4.4 LIMITERS TAB 29
4.4.1 Idle Speed 29
4.4.2 Limiters 29
4.4.2.1 Rev Limit by Gear 30
4.4.2.2 Rev Limit By Temp 30
4.4.2.3 Rev Limit Delay 30
5 SYSTEM CALIBRATION 31
5.1.1 First Stage Fan 31
5.1.2 Second Stage Fan 31
5.1.3 Vehicle Anti-Theft - Toggle 31
6 SPEEDOMETER 32
6.1 GEAR_TIRE TAB 32
6.1.1 Current Gear and Tire Frame 32
6.1.2 New Tire Size Frame 32
6.1.3 New Gear Ratio 32
6.2 SPEED LIMITERS TAB 32
6.2.1 Limiters 33
7 ENGINE DIAGNOSTIC 34
7.1 WARNING TAB 34
7.2 HARDWARE DIAGNOSTICS TAB 35
7.2.1 Select Diagnostic Test 35
7.2.2 Enable Diagnostic Test 35
7.2.3 Does Error Set SES 35
7.3 TEST PARAMETER TAB 36
7.3.1 Misfire detection 37
APPENDIX B: LIST OF FIGURES 38



Nothing in it I reckon,plenty of pictures I' ll have a go in the morning

A Mastercard moment. Pure magic heavy.

[F6 Hoon]

I work in the construction trade and have my own concrete cutting business. Coates Hire, Kennards Hire, Crommelins Hire and Sales hire out concrete cutting equipment. Of all the people who may have hired concrete cutting equipment from those companies I don't think I've ever lost a client to them. Some hire the equipment as they have a small job to do; other hire because they don't want to employ the services of a pro-contractor. Some cut their limbs off, but that's another story.

Sounds to me like some professional tuners are afraid of a little competition judging from your posts Justice R8. Makes you wonder how professional they are if they are worried about a bloody forum posting how-to tuning tips!

[SSbaby]

At least my posts are not either questions or expert advice without experience (internet expert advice)



Maybe but I help quite a few who dont want something for nothing, or sit and procrastinate.
My post said there are plenty of forums with tuning stuff. Go waste there server space.

I dont know why you are asking for a tuning section now for. It took you 2 years to decide on a cam that is just about a waste of time and effort fitting, it will take you another 5 years to make a decision on which tuning tool you use. See I can waste space if you want me too with useless shit

Try doing some testing and sharing results yourself instead of just sucking info as you always do. You are what most would consider an internet guru. Read all the posts and then suddenly an expert because you read it on the net. Remember forums are for contribution as well as taking. See I can do the insult thing too if you want to play that game as well

And why am I quite passionate about not another tuning forum. I have seen the results of internet experts giving advice based on what they once read and costing innocent people money. I dont want to see people stuff their cars then have to pay to fix what they stuff up.

I hope all tuners make heaps more money than they already have as it helps people like myself that are prepared to spend a dollar or two on the next new thing that they develop. Where would guys like markone, Dritz, Criso etc etc be if workshops didnt keep developing. Right where you are running about 13's. But these guys pay to play thats why they run quick.

In summary what you want for free is what these guys have paid for. Thats about it isnt it. :lol:

On that note, all I will say Justice, is sticks and stones...

I don't have the inferiority complex that you seem to demonstrate if your comments are anything to go by (but hey, I'm only Mexican so I couldn't possibly know anything) and I don't have $$$ that grow on trees either, not like some ;).

I don't know where your comments stem from and I don't understand why you would oppose my proposal. It's got nothing to do with divulging proprietry software which you seem to be trying to sway readers to believe. It's about giving members out there a chance to express themelves and follow up on issues they might have without fear of being muzzled.

I don't have to contribute to this forum, Justice. The main reason why I do is, believe it or not, I want to help others through my experiences. :) As I said earlier in my response to one of your posts, it's people like your good-self who shape this forum, because your opinion is obviously more worthy than anybody else's. You can have your sweet litte victory... my proposal won't happen due to the antics of a few destructive individuals.

PS. This will be my last post on this forum. :wave:

[seldo]

On that note, ................
my proposal won't happen due to the antics of a few destructive individuals.

PS. This will be my last post on this forum. :wave:
That seems like a bit of an over-reaction SSb. Taking your bat and ball and going home????? I thought you were made of stronger stuff than that...Pity..
Maybe tomorrow you'll go and pick your dummy out of the dirt and all will be forgotten...

[VooDoo]

How many people have come to this forum for advice? There are theads on tyres, suspension, induction, exhaust and much more. Many people have bought LS1's purely on recommendations from this forum and the "uneducated". While some posts are a little off in terms of accuracy most are pretty close to the mark or corrected quickly. Whats the differance between all that good advice and advice on the technical side of tuning? We are educating our members and helping them get the best they can from their cars. Now some ppl might be able to bolt on a set of brakes, change pads, swap manifolds and do some of the more technical things based on advice here. Others will use that same advice and search for a sponsor or workshop to do it for them. Its the same with tuning, a few might "give it a go" with both good and bad results. The vast majority will still go to a tuner but more educated in what options they have and what they want.

Justice, how is that possibly a bad thing?? Its not like anyone has started up a workshop purely based on information from the internet.

[PepeLePew]

Getting beaten with a big stick seems like an over the top reaction to what is only a suggestion.....

In my mind there is such a think as constructive argument, and then there is shoving your opinion down someone else throat.

SSBaby, I agree with Seldo not posting further on the forum wouldnt be the right thing. Just have to toughen your hide sometimes and ignore it. As for the dummy spit bit Seldo...well.....this is all getting a wee bit to emotive.

[seldo]

Voodoo, that's all true, and i don't really see that it is such a big deal or so critical that either SSb or Justice are getting into a barny over it. However, since this IS an internet forum and therefore most likely to be followed by IT geeks and IT gurus like yourself, there is far more chance that someone with no mechanical knowledge but plenty of IT skills might be tempted to "'ave a go" themselves because it involves just plugging in a lap-top and changing a few tables, and do some damage. Whereas those same people would not attempt some of the purely mechanical tasks that you mentioned because there is no IT component that they feel comfortable in playing with. It is exactly the opposite with me - because I am an IT dinosaur I would not even contemplate having a go at this, whereas I can do all the purely mechanical stuff with my eyes closed.
But anyway, why have a tanty about it? It is just like you and I both suggested to the forum owner a whila ago they start some sort of forum "Yellow Pages". It hasn't been responded to, but it certainly hasn't made me have a dummy-spit. There are some more important issues in life to worry about...

[seldo]

........... As for the dummy spit bit Seldo...well.....this is all getting a wee bit to emotive.
Sorry - It's just a flippant expression I use and is not intended to be inflammatory :)

[VooDoo]

People will always be passionate about cars. I agree its not worth getting into a dummy spit over.

Its wont be the first nor last time someone breaks something they have a go at. To refuse the option to discuss it just because a keyboard warrior might damage something in my view is a little silly. Wouldnt it be better to educate exactly why and how you can damage something rather than censor the discussion? I cant see it hurting the sponsors (give em more business if anything) and we have a lot better educated members here. If they break something with their playing around thats the risk they take, some will do that anyway. How many people might be saved damage with some discussion on the "how and why" of tuning.

[seldo]

All true Stew. But isn't this whole storm in a tea-cup over wanting a separate section for tuning? If Sidie wants to he will, if not he won't - after all, it's his forum and he makes the rules. There is absolutely nothing to prevent SSb starting a thread dedicated to what he wants, and you and he and anyone else who wants to can contribute and give each other all the advice that you want. And anyone else, including me and Justice, can read and learn, and accept or discard that advice. I just don't see that it's the major issue that has SSb so mortally wounded...

[Mongy]

I cant see it hurting the sponsors (give em more business if anything) Stewie, you do not realise how true that statement probably is. Backyard stuffups constitute a considerable percentage of any mechanical business. I was not going to post in this thread but I will wade in and say my 2c worth. I have a little experience in the field of cars, my trade papers say I am a qualified Automotive Engineer. I used to build engines and tune racecars myself in another life a long time ago, I have seen most things there are to see, including HP tuners. It really is computer geek territory, but if you do not have the mechanical background to understand what you are changing and what effect the changes you want to make have on related components or what the various tables mean you are in for a very rough and expensive ride. Believe it or not I can see this argument from both sides of the fence, yes, I agree with Tony and there are a lot of cluey guys out there that will benefit from information sharing and personally I have nothing against having informed customers with enough knowledge to make their own choices, but what are people going to do when (not if) changing something in one car does not work in another? Yes, even in computer controlled engine management systems each car can respond differently to the same input! Every engine is slightly different. That is where all this R&D comes in, knowing how to respond to the differences and make it perform. OK, I'll stick my hand up here, back in the early 70's I fitted my first supercharger, a twin screw, went like the clappers but I got too adventurous with the tune trying to get more power, and kapow, I had to cough up for a rebuild. That's right, not the customer, me! R&D comes at a price, a very expensive one. Most engine builders/tuners worth their salt have skeletons in the closet just like I have, that is how they learn, not from finding out on the internet. That is how guys like Mark and Criso do go faster. And when we want to learn or find out more about things we do it and we pay for the priviledge, it does not come for nothing. That is what business is all about. In that argument I am right behind Justice and Seldo. As I said earlier in this post, there are some who will benefit, but, and it is a big BUT, if you want to play with fire be prepared to pay the fireman. I had two prices when I quoted, one for normal people, and a higher one for backyarders who used to come in and want me to fix their stuffups! And trust me, it is harder to fix somebody elses failure than it is to do the job from scratch. So if anyone stuffs up be prepared to pay for your play. Sorry for the long post. :rolleyes: Oh and while I think of it, don't stop posting Tony, that is what makes this forum interesting, debate and knowledge, one more reason why I see this from both sides of the fence.

[MNR-0]

SSBaby will come back. He's just hurt because Justice had a stab at him.

Who cares what Justice thinks?
Who cares what I think?
Who cares what SSBaby thinks?

Seriously, its all a bit of fun and debate, with some whipping thrown in.

But I will say, let some post without getting all personal and girly. Keep it to some level of professionalism, or don't post.

[seldo]

Mongy - as usual, an excellent rational post :thumbsup:

[VooDoo]

Isnt "having a play" at home R&D. Although not at the same level as professional tuners its still wothwhile to some people. Mark and Tuna didnt wake up one day and discover they were tuning gods, they started small, learnt the basic's and moved on to bigger and better things. Some ppl here will push the boundaries of safety and will pay the price. On the other hand many guys here already know a fair bit about their cars and as some have found, gotten a few extra kw, a bit better drivability out of the cars. Being the kind of ppl we are this type of smoothing of tunes and tweaking could/would be given back to the pro's who dont have time to spend on 1000's of little tweeks. Some would of course take back a car with a fried PCM and get the tuners to fix there ****ed up "R&D". As Mongy said, there are failures even with the pro's.

[Justice R8]

On that note, all I will say Justice, is sticks and stones...

I don't have the inferiority complex that you seem to demonstrate if your comments are anything to go by (but hey, I'm only Mexican so I couldn't possibly know anything) and I don't have $$$ that grow on trees either, not like some ;).

I don't know where your comments stem from and I don't understand why you would oppose my proposal. It's got nothing to do with divulging proprietry software which you seem to be trying to sway readers to believe. It's about giving members out there a chance to express themelves and follow up on issues they might have without fear of being muzzled.

I don't have to contribute to this forum, Justice. The main reason why I do is, believe it or not, I want to help others through my experiences. :) As I said earlier in my response to one of your posts, it's people like your good-self who shape this forum, because your opinion is obviously more worthy than anybody else's. You can have your sweet litte victory... my proposal won't happen due to the antics of a few destructive individuals.

PS. This will be my last post on this forum. :wave:

take a chill pill sweetie

As usual my big moth has now started some constructive debate from both sides. Emotion is what drives debate. That is what you call my useless posts. May seem useless to you but often catch out the bullshitters that post myths and magic.

Sorry Tony to take it personal and have a dig at you, but if you take a personal swipe at me I will generally shoot back with all guns blazing hence my previous posts.

I agree with Mongy whole heartedly. I have been there with what I thougt was a great tuner on an old boat that blew it brains out just like Mongy descibed in his post. $60k setup all in the bin due to one little mistake by a tuner. I was devestated. Let me tell you it didnt cost me in the end. Legal action sorted that out.

Just for your info, most tuners will not work on your tune if you are a home tuner. Why? because there name is associated to the car. For example tony I know you have a HPF tune, Voddo has PT and I have Sam. We all go and buy our own software and start playing as Mongy describes and we all bang our engines. Who would look bad from it? Wouldnt be us. It goes like this, Hey isnt that the car that xyz tunes that dropped its guts? That why tuners hate backyarders and internet experts. And mongy hit the nail on the head with it will cost a shit load more for them to fix your stuff ups

IT experience is one thing and understanding what makes an engine work is another. The 2 must be combined.

Even Sidey can add in here. He has done some great self tuning but has admitted openly that it can be very costly.

Once again Tony sorry if I have upset you but if it saves one person from torching a very expensive engine or gearbox it will be well worth it. That is the reason I posted here.

Voodoo

Mark and Tuna didnt wake up one day and Tune. Have a look at Tunas history. He was tuning a long long time before before LS1's, Sam, Mark, Delco etc have been tuning for years before the LS1 hence my point about understanding what is going on with an engine before trying to play with it. The computer is your cars heart. Would you try and clear an artery at home first before going to a heart specialist? I dont think so. Put a bandaid on a ut is fine. Even the first surgeon lost patients just like tuners will lose cars but the generally fix what they stuff up at their expense
As far as your comment about decisions on tyres manifolds etc coming from here is spot on. All things that wont kill the car. Even the worst set of tyres made wont cost you a fortune. They may not corner at warp speed but they wont kill your car either.

Remeber guys. You only ever here about the good results. Never the bad and there are a lot of costly ones out there. One bad bit of advice on a tuning forum can be expensive. Its a bit like this. I have found putting 2 kilos of sugar in your tank will boost the octane to 110 (dont anybody do it). Everybody knows it will torch your engine but as you say a lot of people dont know any better.

A little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You do not want to be doing R&D on your own car if it is the one you drive daily or cannot afford a large repair bill.

[sloone]

If I took the advice in this thread and the poll thread I would never try doing anything other than what I have trained in.
But how boring would that be.
We all like to try things and to understand how they work. To me a tune is no different and if I lunch my motor then thats my bad luck. Sure sometimes people stuff up but at least they are having a go.
Regardless of any advice I will always give it a go, and if told "I can't do it", only makes it all the more important for me to give it a shot, win lose or draw.
Do I seek advice? Certainly, but only to compare it to my understanding.
As to R&D I help as I am always asking if this or that can be done and we give it a try. Some things work some don't. I think it is a 2 way street, I supply my car and the tuner supplies his knowledge.
Will G&D lose a customer if I start doing tweaks? I don't think so, as I intend to spend a heap more dollars on other stuff, whereas I have already spent the money having my car tuned.

[HRT Stroker]

For the last time, you wan't to ask questions on tuning you can!!

There is a forum for it -

LS Series Powertrain Technical!

LS Series Powertrain Technical!

LS Series Powertrain Technical!

Say it three times and click your heals and your there........ :rolleyes:

When it is log jammed with tuning "how do I?" threads we will consider the idea of devoting a complete new chapter of the forum to it - OK??

Never have I seen so many emotive posts about creating a section of the forum to put threads that don't exist yet!!!!!! :confused:

Justice R8 knows his shit, he (and the rest of the people on here who have their money where their mouths are) have seen the grenades that results from home tuning, they are not necessarily saying it must not be done, just that you MUST understading how easy a finger error on your laptop can completely fark an engine almost instantly..... :(

These guys are at the pointy end, like them or not we can glean from their experience. ;)

Lets see some threads opend with genuine questions so we can gauge response - yeah??


HRT Stroker