Latest Motor HSV V's Typhoon V's Evo

[dark]

Just reading the latest Motor where they put the FPV Typhoon with the Evolution V11 and the VZ Clubsport against each other. Some times they recorded on a hot day.

HSV - 0 to 100 5.83 0-400 14.01
EVO - 0 to 100 5.41 0-400 13.84
F6 - 0 to 100 6.40 0-400 14.64

The HSV won the final vote, Evo 2nd, FPV last.

They mention the new Evo, 302Kw 0-100 in 3.6 = $115,000.

[VS_SeV]

Just reading the latest Motor where they put the FPV Typhoon with the Evolution V11 and the VZ Clubsport against each other. Some times they recorded on a hot day.

HSV - 0 to 100 5.83 0-400 14.01
EVO - 0 to 100 5.41 0-400 13.84
F6 - 0 to 100 6.40 0-400 14.64

The HSV won the final vote, Evo 2nd, FPV last.

They mention the new Evo, 302Kw 0-100 in 3.6 = $115,000.
Didnt MOTOR crack the "4 second barrier" with the VZ GTO? And clearly F6 is faster than 6.40...

[phat-dave]

Didnt MOTOR crack the "4 second barrier" with the VZ GTO? And clearly F6 is faster than 6.40...

I must say VS SEV that I've been watching a few of your posts of late and you are very critical of facts because you've read something elsewhere on the Internet.

I think it is great that you've taken to time to read about what the vehicles are capable of, however I think it is silly of you to comment on the drivability of a particular vehicle.

IE: The comments on the Ecotec over the Alloytec, or now your claims based on a third party stating the F6 is quicker than they were able to record at that point in time... All in all, if you've never driven a car, or at least sat in the type of vehicle you nittpick at, then I don't see your need to add feedback or comment?

Of course this is just my opinion and merely an observation.

[HsV_GTS_300]

Couple of other things
Points awarded in each catagory:
Quarter-mile
Evo-3
Clubsport-2
Typhoon-1
Street Start
Clubsport & Evo -3
Typhoon-2
Specs/Interior
Typhoon & Clubsport-3
Evo-1
Hardware
Evo & Clubsport-3
Typhoon-2
Mountain Pass
Evo-3
Typhoon-2
Clubsport-1
Cruise
Clubsport-3
Typhoon-2
Evo-1

Total
Clubsport-15
Evo-14
Typhoon-12

Some Quotes

Which crowns HSV's 6.0-litre Clubsport. It feels sounds and,most of the time,is the fastest.It has all the equipment and comfort of the F6 and the speed of the Evolution.


The Lancer is pure speed. That it's comparable to the 6.0-litre Clubsport, faster in some ways is proof that two-litres, turbo and technology is a titantic combination. It makes no excuses but it is compromised in equipment and comfort.


The FPV is very good, but it has more minor issues than the others, and you're left with the feeling that there's more potential, and that FPV's being PC by not making it faster than its own V8 GT.

To sum it up

When it comes down to forking out 60 grand for a performance sedan, the HSV Clubsport chalks up a win for the V8's.

[dark]

Didnt MOTOR crack the "4 second barrier" with the VZ GTO? And clearly F6 is faster than 6.40...

I know this is a Holden forum but they quoted the following figures on a bagging of the F6:=

XR6T 0 - 100 5.91 400M 14.14
F6 0 - 100 6.40 400M 14.64
XR8 0 -100 6.16 400M 14.40
GT 0 - 100 6.30 400M 14.40

They also listed the rear wheel KW for each.

[Ghosn]

Didnt MOTOR crack the "4 second barrier" with the VZ GTO? And clearly F6 is faster than 6.40...

Clearly it wasn't on the day.

[brock05]

i think your confusing 4 with 5 youg Sev :rolleyes: back to reading your magazines

[Wezza]

^^ 4.99 seconds is considered to be cracking the 5 second barrier and not 4 mate. If they cracked the 4 second barrier, it would be 3.99 seconds or lower. :)

[F6 Hoon]

I know this is a Holden forum but they quoted the following figures on a bagging of the F6:=

XR6T 0 - 100 5.91 400M 14.14
F6 0 - 100 6.40 400M 14.64
XR8 0 -100 6.16 400M 14.40
GT 0 - 100 6.30 400M 14.40

They also listed the rear wheel KW for each.

Jeez, judging by those performance figures I'm glad I bought the 'T' and not the 'F6'. What were the rwkw figures of the cars?

Looks like the stock XR6T isn't far behind the HSV LS2 then.

[COOKIE!]

getting back on the topic..........

Ive had the pleasure of driving two of the three cars tested ( HSV & EVO ) and they are both awsome cars if i were ever going to sway away from a holden the evo would be it.. I was cornering in the wet at about 60kl/h with no loss it traction and no under steer what so ever. But the new LS2 is a nice piece of machinery too but for some reason did feel quicker :D :D :D than the evo in all aspects the only thing in my opinion the evo was better in was handeling and braking, But i guess thats what you get when you have four wheels driving the car and not two. Just my 2c

[Aloof]

The very same magazine got 5.73 sec to 100km/h in the December edition for the F6. and 14.01 for 400m.

I think they need a new watch. The LS2 HSV's should be al,most a second quicker than the times posted on the latest edition.

Clearly Motor Magazine loves controversy. I am a subscriber and I take all the times with a grain of salt.

One last thing, the F6 is much faster than a stock XR6T. The VZ Clubbie is much faster than a stock XR8. These numbers are just that, numbers. Read a similar review of a different mag or even a different edition of the same mag you get dicrepencies. But then, what would we talk about if we had definitive performance figures and everyone new that HSV is quicker than FPV :box:

[VS_SeV]

The very same magazine got 5.73 sec to 100km/h in the December edition for the F6. and 14.01 for 400m.

I think they need a new watch. The LS2 HSV's should be al,most a second quicker than the times posted on the latest edition.

Clearly Motor Magazine loves controversy. I am a subscriber and I take all the times with a grain of salt.

One last thing, the F6 is much faster than a stock XR6T. The VZ Clubbie is much faster than a stock XR8. These numbers are just that, numbers. Read a similar review of a different mag or even a different edition of the same mag you get dicrepencies. But then, what would we talk about if we had definitive performance figures and everyone new that HSV is quicker than FPV :box:
Exactly... why didnt the rest of the crowd pick that up?
F6 is a "HSV version" of a XR6T, wouldnt every one laugh and write it off as BS if Motor posted times where the new SS was beating the LS2 GTO.
:rolleyes:

[FPV GTHO]

I think alot of people are missing the part where it was said it was a fairly hot day. That would be what dulled the F6's times, probablythe EVO as well.

That 302kw EVO they mentioned would probably be the FQ400 thats more of a special edition than a new EVO

[PepeLePew]

And whilst not forced induction, the LS2 Im sure doesnt like drinking hot air either ?

[dark]

Jeez, judging by those performance figures I'm glad I bought the 'T' and not the 'F6'. What were the rwkw figures of the cars?

Looks like the stock XR6T isn't far behind the HSV LS2 then.

RWKW Figures as per Motor. They have the printouts using Shootout Mode.
XR6T - 186
F6 - 200
XR8 - 193
GT - 225

Comment in Mag: "Stock XR6 Turbos usually get between 185 nad 190 on the dyno. Theyre pretty consistant but the figures on the F6 have not been encouraging. We've had one at 185 and another at 200. If you had the one with 185 you would not be happy"

[CarlFST60L]

I am still suprised to see people baging out motor for no valid reason...

Diffrent road surface, they used diffent cars to the last test (and we all know every car is slightly diffrent), so now we know how they go in the heat... All the times were lower than previously recorded, but it was a comparison, in the heat...

0-100 in 3.6 for an EVO, thats my kinda car :cool:

[VS_SeV]

I am still suprised to see people baging out motor for no valid reason...

Diffrent road surface, they used diffent cars to the last test (and we all know every car is slightly diffrent), so now we know how they go in the heat... All the times were lower than previously recorded, but it was a comparison, in the heat...

0-100 in 3.6 for an EVO, thats my kinda car :cool:
Its just incongruent, and all cars are the same, dont tell me you can buy one SS or XR6T thats faster than the same one from another dealer (brand new).

You are right about the roads, temp and other conditions though.

[dark]

The new Chevy LS7 gets a mention as well, based on the Gen 1V they are expecting the Vette 7.0 litre (427) to go 1-100 in less than 4 seconds and sub 12sec quarter mile. It sais Australians are unlikely to see the engine in HSV but then HSV will soon have a line on supercharged LS2's out of PWR's new Melbourne workshop. The 7.0litre generates 373kw and 644nm of torque.

[COOKIE!]

The new Chevy LS7 gets a mention as well, based on the Gen 1V they are expecting the Vette 7.0 litre (427) to go 1-100 in less than 4 seconds and sub 12sec quarter mile. It sais Australians are unlikely to see the engine in HSV but then HSV will soon have a line on supercharged LS2's out of PWR's new Melbourne workshop. The 7.0litre generates 373kw and 644nm of torque.


ill glady be there test driver im in melbourne :lol: :lol:

[FPV GTHO]

And whilst not forced induction, the LS2 Im sure doesnt like drinking hot air either ?

True, no engine likes the hot air, i was simply stating that the EVO and F6 being forced induction, theyre more temperamental to the heat than the naturally aspirated LS2

[PepeLePew]

Its just incongruent, and all cars are the same, dont tell me you can buy one SS or XR6T thats faster than the same one from another dealer (brand new).

You are right about the roads, temp and other conditions though.

Wrong. Do a little research on this forum and you'll see dyno numbers varying wildly between seemingly the same cars....

Dont know about T's but tolerances being tolerances and QC being what it is I'd be surprised if they didnt have their day of the week engines too....

[CarlFST60L]

Wrong.

Yes he is wrong :booty:

[RICHO]

As an FF I hate to say it but

3 cars, provided by 3 manufacturers, tested on the same day in similar conditions, by the same set of drivers.

It doesn't matter IF the cars are capable of better performance, those cars on that day produced those figures.

And the winner...Motor liked the HSV.

All seems simple and above board to me....Now come on FPV give me a response to these LS2's!!!!

One question..id they past any in gear acceleration times for the cars or was it all standing start?? I'd be interested to see if the F6 held it's own better with rolling starts, getting a lard arse like that off the line would be a real disadvantage.

[FPV GTHO]

Going from a Wheels test between the GT, F6 and Clubby, the F6 has about 0.2 over the Clubby in 3rd in the 80-120km/h and by 5th that was much closer to a second. In 6th it was a fair margin

[Dacious]

As an FF I hate to say it but

3 cars, provided by 3 manufacturers, tested on the same day in similar conditions, by the same set of drivers.

It doesn't matter IF the cars are capable of better performance, those cars on that day produced those figures.



And the tests are more real world - all cars with tanks half full or higher, spare tyre and jack/tools on board, some mags include a front seat passenger. Tyres at street pressure, no burnout compound or braking up/spooling. IOW, the way you'd run someone on the road at the lights. And the there's the temps, traction conditions, probably limited time and runs.

So bagging out journos for running them as they come is maybe a bit unfair. Obviously, someone with drag experience is going to be quicker, especially given a little time to tweak. But that may skew the result, when they are testing road cars.

[TURISMO_CV8]

As an FF I hate to say it but

3 cars, provided by 3 manufacturers, tested on the same day in similar conditions, by the same set of drivers.

It doesn't matter IF the cars are capable of better performance, those cars on that day produced those figures.

And the winner...Motor liked the HSV.

All seems simple and above board to me....Now come on FPV give me a response to these LS2's!!!!

One question..id they past any in gear acceleration times for the cars or was it all standing start?? I'd be interested to see if the F6 held it's own better with rolling starts, getting a lard arse like that off the line would be a real disadvantage.



80-120 Km/h Rolling in Gear Acceleration, done by Wheels not Motor
----------------------------------------
3rd 4th 5th 6th

Club 297 : 4.0 / 5.7 / 7.5 / 12.8 (both clubby & F6 tested same day)

F6 : 3.8 / 4.7 / 6.6 / 9.6

EVO : 3.3 / 4.1 / 6.8 / -- (tested in an earlier issue)

05 STi : 3.4 / 3.9 / 5.2 / 8.4 (included for the heck of it, brutal IMO)


One thing ive noticed in reading tests done by diff mags ...the EVO seems to be the most consistant in the times it puts down despite different cars being tested.

I was also pretty impressed by Wheels in gear acceleration test results on the VZ Monaro ... they only published the 80 - 120 km/h for 3rd gear 3.7 secs and 5th gear 6.2 secs (dont know why they just didnt publish all gears) ... compared to the other vehicles above ... not bad :D

[NODDY347]

As an FF I hate to say it but

3 cars, provided by 3 manufacturers, tested on the same day in similar conditions, by the same set of drivers.

It doesn't matter IF the cars are capable of better performance, those cars on that day produced those figures.

And the winner...Motor liked the HSV.

All seems simple and above board to me....Now come on FPV give me a response to these LS2's!!!!

One question..id they past any in gear acceleration times for the cars or was it all standing start?? I'd be interested to see if the F6 held it's own better with rolling starts, getting a lard arse like that off the line would be a real disadvantage.


Can't see it happening myself, for fpv to match the ls2 6.0l na power/torque through the rev range they would need to start from scatch with a new engine, the long stroke boss engines won't cut it, unless forced induction is used. Then we get back to the other issue, lard.

just my two cents.

[CarlFST60L]

80-120 Km/h Rolling in Gear Acceleration, done by Wheels not Motor
----------------------------------------
3rd 4th 5th 6th

Club 297 : 4.0 / 5.7 / 7.5 / 12.8 (both clubby & F6 tested same day)

F6 : 3.8 / 4.7 / 6.6 / 9.6

EVO : 3.3 / 4.1 / 6.8 / -- (tested in an earlier issue)

05 STi : 3.4 / 3.9 / 5.2 / 8.4 (included for the heck of it, brutal IMO)



Look, this, i think is rubbish, the gearing in the HSV isnt suited to 80Km/h roll on, even with 3.9's i would start in second for an 80km/h roll on, wtf dont they start in second with 3.46's?? Even 3.91's it would be heaps quicker, when i put it in second at 80 hold on its time to rip sh!t up HARD!

[Phido]

Actually the 3rd gear 80-120 the F6 and the Clubby have exactly the same gearing..

So essentially a 1:1 comparison

Rolling times are usually done in all gears at a set speed to show engine flexability, torque spread etc, over all performance.

[CarlFST60L]

So essentially a 1:1 comparison


Sorry, wrong, Typoon, and the others, have completely diffrent power/torque curves as they are turbos, once that LS2 is at >4700rpm, the Typoon GONE!!!

Think about it this way, the LS2 is far quicker to 100km/h and over the 400m, and what you are saying is that that the LS2 is quick till 80km/h then turns into a sh!t box :lol: I can just see it now, the LS2 and typoon launch off the lights, the LS2 pulls a car lenght to 80km/h when d!pSh!t short shifts the LS2 into thrid at 80Km/h and the Typoon passes the LS2 :lol: your kiding :lol:

[dark]

One question..id they past any in gear acceleration times for the cars or was it all standing start?? I'd be interested to see if the F6 held it's own better with rolling starts, getting a lard arse like that off the line would be a real disadvantage.

This is from the article: "Street Start. The rolling start is more real-world relevant at is eliminates the Lancer's all-wheel drive jump. from 20km/h the clunsport's instant response gets it half a car ahead but once turbos come onto boost, they surge back. After first, second, third and fourth gear, there is not even one car length between all three of them, the Typhone starts to fade. It does not carry it's pace to redline. In second gear the Lancer does 104km/h Typhoon 106km/h while the clubsport reaches a high 116km/h. Result Clubsport and Evo =3 Typhone 2."

[FPV GTHO]

Its not meant to be a figure for straight line acceleration, its meant to reflect overtaking. Thats why they start in 3rd as you want to be able to get around any car in one swift movement

[CarlFST60L]

For general overtaking, fourth is plenty, its about racing, its about speed... Rolling start at 20 is a diffrent story, but still, if you fan the clutch and rev it to 5000rpm there is very little diffrence, if anything it would advantage a 4WD more as they are spooled up more and moving :eek:

My point was HSV has the highest speed (116km.h or so) in second, thats whats making it slower from an 80km/h roll on in THIRD, the stock tune dosnt let it rip that low... As for overtaking a Typoon, i can tell you now you'd be stupid to be in third at 80km/h :D I'd fry him in 2nd :lol: then third :lol: then fourth :lol: then 5th :lol: then cruise in 6th :cool:

[FPV GTHO]

As for overtaking a Typoon, i can tell you now you'd be stupid to be in third at 80km/h :D I'd fry him in 2nd :lol: then third :lol: then fourth :lol: then 5th :lol: then cruise in 6th :cool:

If both cars were stock it'd be in the Typhoons favour. As your's isnt stock, how am i to know

[CarlFST60L]

If both cars were stock it'd be in the Typhoons favour. As your's isnt stock, how am i to know


Thats funny i havnt seen a typhoon run sub 14 seconds :lol: HSVZ have managed 13.0 or 13.1, none in the 14's, Whos favour is what in :booty: :stick:

[FPV GTHO]

We were talking about the 80-120km/h rolling acceleration, not a standing start quarter mile. And even then, HSV are claiming 13.5 for manual VZ Clubby's

[CarlFST60L]

We were talking about the 80-120km/h rolling acceleration, not a standing start quarter mile. And even then, HSV are claiming 13.5 for manual VZ Clubby's

Yeah, i know, the Auto HSVZ GTO did the 13.0/13.1, but, actually, i was talking about the fact the the HSV needs to be in second gear for rolling start at 80km/h, considering 2nd goes to 116km/h, wtf would you be in third if you were testing how fast somthing can do it?

Im just saying, if they had done the same test in second, HSV would have peformed VERY well, if not better than the others, but in third gear its pretty sad :bash:

[FPV GTHO]

Its just how they do the test, they see how fast it can do in everything above 3rd. The idea i guess is that it shouldnt have to make another shift, otherwise 2nd would be included for everycar as im yet to see a car that doesnt change into 3rd somewhere between 80km/h and 120km/h.

Considering the time for shifts etc, i wouldnt predict that much of a difference compared to the F6. The test shows the advantage of having peak torque from 2000rpm.

If you think its sad they do it in 3rd, then i'd hate to think what your thoughts are about 4th, 5th and 6th then.

[CarlFST60L]

You got it, what a waste, 4th, 5th and 6th, it is a great street advantage that its torque is so low, you'd be able to blow shit off pretty easily, with seemingly little effort... This is why i want a TT LS1 :) Though the holden tunes always lack down low for what ever stupid reason, after edit you really notice it!

But like i said a mid 13 second car compared to a low 14 second car, no matter what side of the fence you compare your penis from, the 13 second car will ALWAYS beat a 14 second car in a flat out race :bash:

I was thinking though, wonder what the F6 400 meter time would be if you short shifted second and third, or all gears??? maybe thats the way to get it into the 13's, change at <4500rpm, maybe that will help, especially in third :idea:

Anyone with an F6 tried this? Short shifting thrid??? Should post it on FF for someone with an F6 :idea:

[FPV GTHO]

It would have benefits by keeping it in the torque range as Ford tunes both turbo motors to die off after about 5000rpm, but you'd have another gear change as well so it would depend where that is, affecting the momentum of the car

[EvillBill]

I saw that FQ400 EVO on an ep of Top Gear. One of the presenters, Clarkson, I think, mangaged to keep up with a touring car driver in a Lambo Murchilago. And he wasn't really trying. The thing is a moster. However, he later showed that off boost and in the wrong gear the EVO can be owned by a Corolla or something. Soooo to get back on topic with this, puff power may be nice, but nothing beats an 'always on tap' V8.

[VXSSV8]

I saw that FQ400 EVO on an ep of Top Gear. One of the presenters, Clarkson, I think, mangaged to keep up with a touring car driver in a Lambo Murchilago. And he wasn't really trying. The thing is a moster. However, he later showed that off boost and in the wrong gear the EVO can be owned by a Corolla or something. Soooo to get back on topic with this, puff power may be nice, but nothing beats an 'always on tap' V8.

Yeah that thing was a beast. Some specs (as it isn't your average EVO VIII):

Power bhp (kW) at RPM: 405(302) / 6800
Torque lb-ft (Nm) at RPM: 355(481) / 5000
Acceleration 0-62 mph s: 3.5
Top Speed mph (km/h): 175 (282)
Base Price: 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII MR FQ400 - £46,999

Oh plus it has a 3-year warranty. Its funny how those Brits consider that a family car :eek: . The top gear acceleration test was total BS and just TV crud as you would never accelerate in top gear from 0km/h.

Back on topic of the Motor test, comparing 0-100 or 1/4 mile times on different days/conditions/tracks is a waste of time. You can only fairly evaluate each on the day tested the same way just like dynos. IMO all seemed a little off song but finished relative to what they would on a good day. A clubbie is always going to find it hard to nudge a 4wd EVO to 100km/h and a heavier 270kw typhoon should never be able to match it with a 297kw clubbie so all is fair. Saying one or the other could do better times is pointless as they all could. Those Wheels in-gear acceleration times are interesting as Motor thought they were all even stevens in their test.

:)

[dark]

Just a question but why are Ford fighting their own, the XR6T is faster than the Typhoon, yet the Typhoon is 30Kw more and $13,285 more expensive. I find it hard to make sense of that, especially if I was a buyer. We can tinker with ours and not even get close to $13000. Admittingly I have one of the most expensive versions but on delivery I have a far superior version than a standard they then gave us the ability for any LS1 to be tinkered and perform well above our expectations and mine.

[CarlFST60L]

Why bother at all :lol: :stick:

Just stirring

[dark]

You have a point!!!

[F6 Hoon]

Just a question but why are Ford fighting their own, the XR6T is faster than the Typhoon, yet the Typhoon is 30Kw more and $13,285 more expensive. I find it hard to make sense of that, especially if I was a buyer. We can tinker with ours and not even get close to $13000. Admittingly I have one of the most expensive versions but on delivery I have a far superior version than a standard they then gave us the ability for any LS1 to be tinkered and perform well above our expectations and mine.

Agreed Dark. I know my decision to purchase the 'T' over the 'F6' was easy - the F6 looked nicer, but not $13k nicer. The 'T' cost a tad less than $50k, and by doing a little tinkering, which will cost less than half of the difference between the XR and the F6, I know the car will comfortably out-accelarate a stock F6 and maybe even a stock LS2 HSV ;)

[jasonrouse]

The new HSV VE 370kw GTS will do 0 - 100 in 4.8 sec and 400m in 12.7

[RICHO]

AND it will cost $150,000+

And to be honest...a performance bargain at that price!!

[Merlin]

Agreed Dark. I know my decision to purchase the 'T' over the 'F6' was easy - the F6 looked nicer, but not $13k nicer. The 'T' cost a tad less than $50k, and by doing a little tinkering, which will cost less than half of the difference between the XR and the F6, I know the car will comfortably out-accelarate a stock F6 and maybe even a stock LS2 HSV ;)

but dosnt the F6 have a whole host of internal engine, gearbox and clutch (bad example) mods to make it hold together longer than a standard T?

[Dacious]

Even setting aside the stronger internals the F6 has heaps of other stuff like brakes, suspension, interior, big wheels, sound system, bodykit etc. which if you fitted to a 'T' will take you most of the way through the difference, not to mention exclusivity and bragging rights. Start opening the engine of the T to fit the H-D items and you're the rest of the way there, easy.

I think it's a safe bet that stock for stock in fault-free cars an F6 will down a T, even if not by much, and not just in a straight line. With a modded car it's when you get 40,000k down the track you'll probably see the difference when you start winding up the wick.

As to whether either holds value better it's hard to say. If I were buying a used one I'd pay more for a stock F6 than a modded T.

[FPV GTHO]

The new HSV VE 370kw GTS will do 0 - 100 in 4.8 sec and 400m in 12.7

The VE GTS is more likely to have a tuned LS2 than the LS7

[GM350]

, but nothing beats an 'always on tap' V8.

That is soooooooooo true, the F6 appeals to certain drivers who love to hate V8's, unfortunately for them the V8 keeps producing the goods.

[Red CV8 R]

That is soooooooooo true, the F6 appeals to certain drivers who love to hate V8's, unfortunately for them the V8 keeps producing the goods.

I dont follow, the XR6T has alot more low down then a Gen 3, and would say is more responsive. I havent driven the F6. I would consider a turbo 6 like the XR6T or F6 and yet own and have owned V8s?

[GM350]

So if I gave you a choice F6 or LS2 Clubby, you would take the F6.

[Red CV8 R]

So if I gave you a choice F6 or LS2 Clubby, you would take the F6.


I havent driven either an F6 or an LS2 powered Clubsport and probably wouldnt buy either if it was my money but I have a sneaking suspision I might take the F6 if forced to make a decision, HSV are moving away from what I like in a car. I reckon the F6 with its better internals could be a hoot to modify. Allthough the clutch issues. are a worry.

Having said that, I wouldnt make the decision based solely on what engine powers either car, there is alot more to it then that! Most people on here cant look past the number of cylinders a car has but I am not one of them.

So you have given me a bit of a loaded question there.

[GM350]

I must be on a FF, anyway it's proven the LS2 shits on anything ford can dish out, performance times prove it.
4.99 for the GTO cya.

[FPV GTHO]

I havent driven either an F6 or an LS2 powered Clubsport and probably wouldnt buy either if it was my money but I have a sneaking suspision I might take the F6 if forced to make a decision, HSV are moving away from what I like in a car. I reckon the F6 with its better internals could be a hoot to modify. Allthough the clutch issues. are a worry.

Having said that, I wouldnt make the decision based solely on what engine powers either car, there is alot more to it then that! Most people on here cant look past the number of cylinders a car has but I am not one of them.

So you have given me a bit of a loaded question there.

Its interesting that had Motor not blown those 2 clutches, no one wouldve known there was a potential problem, and although FPV fixed the problem its still on everyones mind that it could happen to their car.

[CarlFST60L]

I must be on a FF, anyway it's proven the LS2 shits on anything ford can dish out, performance times prove it.
4.99 for the GTO cya.

:lol: well pointed out :lol:

[FPV GTHO]

Now lets see a repeat of that

[dark]

Its interesting that had Motor not blown those 2 clutches, no one wouldve known there was a potential problem, and although FPV fixed the problem its still on everyones mind that it could happen to their car.

Though the issues re the clutches and the comparisons that this thread commenced are on totally different articles in the magazine, I must say that Ford lied when they tried to put the blame on the test drivers, face up to a problem and deal with it. I would be and we have here been quite critical of many who fail that test whether it be Holden or Ford. Personally I do not blame people for thinking it could happen to theirs, I have had 3 LS1 and have wondered whether the oil problem will hit me, it has not, but I will never make an accuse.

[F6 Hoon]

I dont follow, the XR6T has alot more low down then a Gen 3, and would say is more responsive. I havent driven the F6. I would consider a turbo 6 like the XR6T or F6 and yet own and have owned V8s?

That's what I noticed as well, driving a 5 spd XR6T one day and a M6 VZ SS the next. The Falcon, with it's lower power and torque outputs, heavier weight, and lack of 'instant V8 grunt' had more torque down low than the SS :lol: Where the Falcon could be short-shifted at 2000rpm and accelarated easily, the SS laboured and pinged violently.

Go figure!

[SSbaby]

OT: but one of the few rare personal road kill victories

Pulled up next to a young guy who was driving erratically in his debadged XR6T, weaving in & out of traffic. I decided to have a stab at the throttle to let him know I wasn't intimidated. At the next set of lights, he waved his hand around ethnic style in total contempt for my machine. I wound down the window and he asked me what mods I made to my engine... I told him it was stock... his response was likewise...he then challenged me to a street fight, F vs H style...

I made sure I was in the right gear for the rolling start (2nd). I nailed it and saw my car edging away before I backed off at the top of 2nd. He continued to accelerate but I didn't feel comfortable going any quicker. At the next set of lights we talked ... he told me my car goes alright... :lol:

Oh, I just wish I acted my age sometimes! :rolleyes:

[CarlFST60L]

Now lets see a repeat of that

You always have to try to take away from it dont ya :stick:, cant you just accept that HSV cam up with the sub 5 second 0-100km/h

Wait till we get edit for LS2, then you'll have somthing to cry about :lol:

[PepeLePew]

That's what I noticed as well, driving a 5 spd XR6T one day and a M6 VZ SS the next. The Falcon, with it's lower power and torque outputs, heavier weight, and lack of 'instant V8 grunt' had more torque down low than the SS :lol: Where the Falcon could be short-shifted at 2000rpm and accelarated easily, the SS laboured and pinged violently.

Go figure!

Umm Im no defender of the faith here but when my VX2 M6 SS was stock (and now) my general driving style is exactly the above, and I dont recall my SS labouring. It was no rocket, but it wasnt labouring. Perhaps it was just the fuel as I've never used 91.

The 6T was a nice drive, but characterless. Thats my only issue with the car. But I dont recall it lighting my fire when I took a mates for a thrash in the lower RPM regions. Certainly when it was on song (but even then a bit too 'nice' for me, but thats technology I guess)....

Dont get me wrong, Im not anti-T. There is a strong possibility the space in my drive will be occupied by one next unless I need 7 bloody seats!

[Red CV8 R]

I must be on a FF, anyway it's proven the LS2 shits on anything ford can dish out, performance times prove it.
4.99 for the GTO cya.


I dont know, are they this one eyed on FF? Yes 4.99 just watch out for EVO Lancers. If that is all that matters to you then a HSV is the car for you, mind you I would be disapointed if the 6 litres of V8 wasnt quick in a straight line.

[VFast]

Where the Falcon could be short-shifted at 2000rpm and accelarated easily, the SS laboured and pinged violently.

What's the go with the pinging? :eek:

Sounds like it must have had a problem, coz my VYII SS drives sweet through this part of the rev range. Admittedly, it's no rocket, but still pulls smoothly with no sign of labouring or pinging? :confused:

[Danv8]

What's the go with the pinging? :eek:

Sounds like it must have had a problem, coz my VYII SS drives sweet through this part of the rev range. Admittedly, it's no rocket, but still pulls smoothly with no sign of labouring or pinging? :confused:


I have driven a fair few VY and VZ Commode V8's and never had this problem I guess it had a stomach ache with bad fuel. My VY Calais is stock but sweet. :lol:

[CarlFST60L]

Think someone was a tight arse and put shit fuel in it :bash:

[F6 Hoon]

What's the go with the pinging? :eek:


Dunno. It had 23kms on it. For most of the test drive I made a point of shifting below 2k at and giving it WOT to see how much pull it had. All I know is it pinged badly :confused:

I thought these things were designed to run on 91 RON fuel?

[NinetySix]

apples with apples tho, an LS1 revs a bit higher than a xr6t motor so its not completely fair comparing their performance at 2000rpm

that and theres no comparison at 2000rpm :D


cant wait till the xr6t has a few years under its belt and some consistancy comes from the mods... its got a fricking 700hp turbo on it fer christs sake! even if the rods are only good for ~500hp ...

[payaya]

apples with apples tho, an LS1 revs a bit higher than a xr6t motor so its not completely fair comparing their performance at 2000rpm

that and theres no comparison at 2000rpm :D


cant wait till the xr6t has a few years under its belt and some consistancy comes from the mods... its got a fricking 700hp turbo on it fer christs sake! even if the rods are only good for ~500hp ...

but the holden engine has two extra cylinders, and 1700CC extra capacity??

whats where the in gear acceleration times??

Give me an EVO anyday!!! Damn rocket i say, and damn they look sexy in real life!

[dark]

I will settle for the one that came first rather than the minor places. (I do not think that will come back to bite in future reviews!) :eek:

[Drizt]

but the holden engine has two extra cylinders, and 1700CC extra capacity??
!


i hate when people say this crap.. sorry mate its a personal hate of mine...

so what if it has extra cylinders and capacity..... its a NATURALLY ASPIRATED MOTOR....

the 6 has a bloody hair dryer on it....

that maks comparing the engine configuration and capacity irrelevant....

Both sides need to stop using this argument as an excuse...

[CarlFST60L]

i hate when people say this crap.. sorry mate its a personal hate of mine...

so what if it has extra cylinders and capacity..... its a NATURALLY ASPIRATED MOTOR....

the 6 has a bloody hair dryer on it....

that maks comparing the engine configuration and capacity irrelevant....

Both sides need to stop using this argument as an excuse...


What he said,
fact is the V8 kills it on a track and in a straight line, it cant even match an SV8 :lol:

[F6 Hoon]

What he said,
fact is the V8 kills it on a track and in a straight line, it cant even match an SV8 :lol:

Shame the same defence for the Commodore can't be used with it's chassis :lol:

[CarlFST60L]

Shame the same defence for the Commodore can't be used with it's chassis :lol:

Please explain?!

[F6 Hoon]

Please explain?!

I should have reworded my remark. The only saving grace for the Commodore is it's engine. From Motor, Feb '05, P55

"But there are two problems: hit a dip at speed and the suspension bottoms out, sending a nasty thunk through the chassis. The other is the front tyres, which tend to fold over when pushed hard. Blame the chassis, blame the trade-off in good ride, but on the nose heavy HSV, it will literally scrub the tyre size off the side wall.

Typhoon goes one better: the ride is similar even though it's on 18s, the shocks feel firmer, and though the steering isn't as sharp as the Clubbie, the chassis sure is. It doesn't roll like the HSV and it works both the front and rear tyres evenly with a sweeter balance. It's more eager to change direction, more responsive to fine inputs and works it's suspension more effectively and efficiently."

The chassis in the HSV is a let down, but that is no surprise.

Motor don't hide the fact that they like cars that are quick down the 1/4 mile, so no one should be surprised that all the attention is drawn to the Typhoon's lack of 0-100 km/h and 400m performance. Lucky for HSV Motor favour cars that are quick, rather than the 'complete' package.

[CarlFST60L]

Its a perfomance magazine!!!! The Commodores are quicker around a track and in a straight line, in terms of performance, that is a complete package!

What, you want a magna to win becuase its comfortable when you hit a bump :lol: WHO CARES! buy a Magna! :lol:

[F6 Hoon]

Nice rebuttal! Have a Magna already, and a Merc, plus a VXII Calais LS1. The XR is coming next ;)

[CarlFST60L]

Nice rebuttal! Have a Magna already, and a Merc, plus a VXII Calais LS1. The XR is coming next ;)

Thanks :) Not nad for half pissed :D

[MattJ]

I was lucky enough to get a drive of a F6 yesterday, OK, its not what i would concider lightening fast but its got pull and it will quite happily pull from below 2000 rpm in 5th to easily overtake, even up a fairly healthy hill (Olivers hill, Nepean Hwy frankston), the car is way more comfortabe than any holden ive ever sat in/owned/driven, the seats are fantastic although i thought some of the interior plastics where pretty bad.

After giving the F6 a squirt on some very windy hwy I was ready for some back road twistys, allthough there's not a great deal of that around where we were, I was completly surprised on this cars level of grip on the roads I did find, the suspension rolled with the punches, it was not at any time harsh in fact it was almost soft but the car felt supported and in reality felt about 300 kilos lighter than it is, the car felt like it cornered (and hard!!) on all four wheels... not just the outside ones, it was a challenge to get the arse end out. The brakes where preety good too.

WorkedSV8, the thing about the F6 is that its about 100 KW under powered for the chassis, its unfortunate that you cant say the same thing about the VZ.

[MattJ]

That Motor article would read a whole lot differant if the F6 had a bit more grunt and thre optional Brembo's.

Whats my point?

The F6 is more of a drivers car and, a more capable car than the HSV, given the easily upgradable nature of the 4.0T even in F6 form, the FPV becomes the obvious choice.

[motomk]

Saw one of the F6 Tornado utes on the road the other day......Good job I had my "anorak" on, otherwise I wouldn't have picked it!

[The Warden]

Looks like the stock XR6T isn't far behind the HSV LS2 then.

Are you serious???....have you driven an LS2????

Mate, the stock XR6T is not as fast as a stock LS1, a stock LS1 is not as fast (and I'm talking country miles here.....) as a stock LS2.

I'm prepared to say that a stock HSV LS2 on any road, on any day, with any driver, will wipe the floor with any current Aussie assembled Ford or FPV........

I'm not picking the crap out of the Fords, they are fine cars and quick with it, but they simply ain't as fast as the LS2 ;)

However, I do agree with phantom memeSS in that the VZ chassis is at or beyond it's limit with the LS2 motor. Having just put 1600km on my car in the last week, it has more creaks at speed on rough roads than the VY did. Still, it goes like a cut cat and that's good enough for me :D

Cheers,
Gordie.

Edit: Note how I've qualified my statements with the word "stock" .....I'm not talking about modded cars here.

[F6 Hoon]

Are you serious???....have you driven an LS2????
Nope, and am not rushing out to do so.



Mate, the stock XR6T is not as fast as a stock LS1, a stock LS1 is not as fast (and I'm talking country miles here.....) as a stock LS2.

I'm prepared to say that a stock HSV LS2 on any road, on any day, with any driver, will wipe the floor with any current Aussie assembled Ford or FPV........
Correct. Does it make it a better car however?



I'm not picking the crap out of the Fords, they are fine cars and quick with it, but they simply ain't as fast as the LS2 ;)

However, I do agree with phantom memeSS in that the VZ chassis is at or beyond it's limit with the LS2 motor. Having just put 1600km on my car in the last week, it has more creaks at speed on rough roads than the VY did. Still, it goes like a cut cat and that's good enough for me :D

Cheers,
Gordie.

Edit: Note how I've qualified my statements with the word "stock" .....I'm not talking about modded cars here.

I'm sure we could spend forever splitting hairs which car is better. HSV/Holden fans would probably say the quicker car; FPV/Ford fans would probably say the car with the better chassis, better handing and braking setup.

Good to see you enjoy your ride :) I know I will mine :D

[jescam]

After reading the new Motor test "Thrust Worthy" i have to say i am not surprised! I can appreciate all 3 cars and i wouldn't say no to having either in my garage.Like most of you on here, when i get a car, i have no intentions for leaving it "stock".So the ability to modify it plays a major part in my purchase.

I own a VYSS which i feel was quite doughy when i first bought it.After modding it, it now has the performance it should have had in the first place! I have a G-Tech (which i use to compare my cars performance) and it did 0-100km/h in 5.2 secs.Its a great cruise car and family car with performance when required! :D

I also own a MY01 WRX which has been modded as well! It is a totally different style of car. Using my G-Tech, on the same road in similar conditions, it did 0-100km/h in 4.8 secs! :D But, thats not where it comes into its own. Put it on a tight windy road, and my commodore wouldn't see which way it went!The grip is awesome, and the way it slingshots out of corners is still unbelievable to me each time i drive it! :cool:

I guess what i am trying to say is this........the F6 and HSV are fantastic cars for their all around package!
Quoting Motor "............and compared to the two Aussies, the VIII is in another world of performance and speed."

After driving/owning an AWD turbo car, if its pure performance driving pleasure you are after, i rekon' you couldn't go past the Evo 8..........I JUST WANT ONE! :bow: :p ;)

[RATT]

Just to put a sense of realism in these 0-400m times. Go to your nearest street meet and see what really happens. At WSID last wednesday in 30deg heat up until 8pm, stock VY SS / XR6T's / XR8's were pulling 14.5 - 15.2sec in both manual and auto.

[lowriding]

Just to put a sense of realism in these 0-400m times. Go to your nearest street meet and see what really happens. At WSID last wednesday in 30deg heat up until 8pm, stock VY SS / XR6T's / XR8's were pulling 14.5 - 15.2sec in both manual and auto.


I understand what your saying , but how do you know what is stock and what is not ??
regards

[MattJ]

After reading the new Motor test "Thrust Worthy" i have to say i am not surprised! I can appreciate all 3 cars and i wouldn't say no to having either in my garage.Like most of you on here, when i get a car, i have no intentions for leaving it "stock".So the ability to modify it plays a major part in my purchase.

I own a VYSS which i feel was quite doughy when i first bought it.After modding it, it now has the performance it should have had in the first place! I have a G-Tech (which i use to compare my cars performance) and it did 0-100km/h in 5.2 secs.Its a great cruise car and family car with performance when required! :D

I also own a MY01 WRX which has been modded as well! It is a totally different style of car. Using my G-Tech, on the same road in similar conditions, it did 0-100km/h in 4.8 secs! :D But, thats not where it comes into its own. Put it on a tight windy road, and my commodore wouldn't see which way it went!The grip is awesome, and the way it slingshots out of corners is still unbelievable to me each time i drive it! :cool:

I guess what i am trying to say is this........the F6 and HSV are fantastic cars for their all around package!
Quoting Motor "............and compared to the two Aussies, the VIII is in another world of performance and speed."

After driving/owning an AWD turbo car, if its pure performance driving pleasure you are after, i rekon' you couldn't go past the Evo 8..........I JUST WANT ONE! :bow: :p ;)

I agree, having owned a couple of AWD turbo cars over the years i know what im missing, having also driven a MY05 STI a couple of weeks ago, its left me wanting more and after reading every EVO 8 right up of the last year I have zero doubt on what is the true-est (new word!) "Performance car" currently available new under... shite... maybe 250k!?!

If I decided to ignore the word and meaning of "practical" for me at the moment id allready be waiting at the dock for the next ship X-Japan.

[NinetySix]

I was lucky enough to get a drive of a F6 yesterday, OK, its not what i would concider lightening fast but its got pull and it will quite happily pull from below 2000 rpm in 5th to easily overtake, even up a fairly healthy hill (Olivers hill, Nepean Hwy frankston), the car is way more comfortabe than any holden ive ever sat in/owned/driven, the seats are fantastic although i thought some of the interior plastics where pretty bad.

After giving the F6 a squirt on some very windy hwy I was ready for some back road twistys, allthough there's not a great deal of that around where we were, I was completly surprised on this cars level of grip on the roads I did find, the suspension rolled with the punches, it was not at any time harsh in fact it was almost soft but the car felt supported and in reality felt about 300 kilos lighter than it is, the car felt like it cornered (and hard!!) on all four wheels... not just the outside ones, it was a challenge to get the arse end out. The brakes where preety good too.

WorkedSV8, the thing about the F6 is that its about 100 KW under powered for the chassis, its unfortunate that you cant say the same thing about the VZ.

crikey, you have got me real wet for a drive of a boosted falcon now :D good thing my GF just got a job at ford in broadmeadows and they are already waving cars infront of her for stupidly cheap prices...

have you driven an XR6T? would you say there is a huge difference?

im sure a boss edit and some minor mods would put it well ahead of a F6 .... but would it take a lot to get one to handle better than a F6? ..... i just want one ;)

[GTS JaZzA]

than a F6? ..... i just want one ;)


guys guys guys, dont go stealing HSV's slogan, geees . . . . :bash: :D

[220i]

Seems as though everyone is comparing different cars and giving opinions so I'll add mine.
I drove a XR6T and was left with an impression of 'is that it??'. Hopped in an XR8...yeh, little more like it. Hopped in a VY SS ute with the exhaust done and was having a ball.
The other day I took a friend out who drives a XR6T sedan in my stock stroker senator and she loved it. loved the punch and the noise and the comfort/gear and I paid about half the price of an XR6T. We got in her car and it just felt a bit boring. Thats just an example of a comparision of different stock v stock cars with very different prices.
See, its what your into...thats why there are different cars for different tastes...not everyone wants striaght-line performance etc. If it was to be a turbo car how could you choose an F6 over a WRX, EVO or GT-R? A R33 GT-R will set you back about $45k odd...mod it with the spare change left from the purchase price of an F6 and you'll have a car that does the turbo thing the right way...will pump MOST things, including LS1s, XRs WRXs in the strightline and twists.

[RICHO]

in my stock stroker senator

Please explain?

Would that be the same as a stock XR6T with an APS Phase 3 kit??

As for the rest of your post, you're right!! There are fantastic bargains out there among grey imports. As long as you know what your doing and are prepared for the insurance battles and the price of spares (Ouch!!)

As for me, I am quite happy knowing that many turbos will show my XR8 their taillights in nearly all conditions. But on a summers morning, crusing the great ocean road, windows down, the sound of the V8 echoing off the occasional cliff face. I'll still be smiling like a loon!! And no amount of whistling blow off valves or turbos will ever wipe that smile off my face.

Nope...I'll cop all the traffic light floggings in the world cos nothing will get V8's out of the blood. ;)

[lowriding]

Please explain?

Would that be the same as a stock XR6T with an APS Phase 3 kit??

;)

I think he may be referring to the factory stroked HSV 5.7 Holden ( ie non LS1) engine .

[RICHO]

I'd forgotten about those!!

Apologies 220i

[220i]

haha, thats alright. Your right about the V8 mate, I'm on that side, don't worry :lol: BUTTT if your gonna do the turbo thing, do it right! ie. well looked after GT-R, well modified WRX or even better wack snails on an LS1! The F6 just seems a little overrated, however, would be a great car to drive and caters for a certain market. Thats whats its all about eh?! Plus, when modded would go really well, as XR6Ts have shown...just getting it into gear might be an issue

[malur8260]

This is a good thread!
It is so hard to compare these cars as they are all completely different. There are so many things to weigh up when comparing, and deciding which one to buy would be even harder. On top of the main things such as performance and handling/ride quality there are other issues such as brand loyalty (it's hard not to be partial to one brand or another), looks, price, quality, resale etc.

I reakon they would both be great cars. Having not driven an LS2 or F6 I think I would prefer the LS2 as I have a bit of loyalty to HSV and prefer V8's, but like I said haven't driven either so can't make the judgement.

[NinetySix]

as for trouble getting it into gear... personally i would go the xr6t over the f6... better value for money, im sure you could go to town with the 13k saving...

as for comparing a ~45k 10 year old GTR grey import to a ~45-50k (with a 22% employee discount :D ) brand new xr6t.... yeah, right! also apples with apples.... cant fit much in a gtr, parts are a pain and insurance is a laugh... and they need to be flogged to go! nothing under about 4500rpm... worlds away from the turbo 4.0


a little boring as standard im sure... power delivery a bit too linear... nothing a boss edit wouldnt fix :cool: its the chassis that really excites me tho.. and a stock snail that has potential for enough neddies to run 10s :eek:

[RATT]

I understand what your saying , but how do you know what is stock and what is not ??
regards

I was sitting close enough to atleast hear what the cars sounded like so that is just my guess. You'd want to hope that they were stock with a 15sec time! :lol:

[220i]

cant fit much in a gtr, parts are a pain and insurance is a laugh... and they need to be flogged to go! nothing under about 4500rpm... worlds away from the turbo 4.0:

true what your saying, but in terms of a well made turbo car the GT-R is hard to beat performance wise. The technology thats in them is quite remarkable for their age..the AWD and the power you can generate from the engine is awesome.

Nothing under 4500rpm? My old man's gets power lower than that, all the way up to about 8000rpm. Big power band in anyones book.
And again to stress, I'm not trying to promote Jap cars etc etc, I'm a holden/HSV V8 man through and through, (thats why I drive one!) but fark me you have to appreciate a decent machine when one performs well.

[Merlin]

true what your saying, but in terms of a well made turbo car the GT-R is hard to beat performance wise. The technology thats in them is quite remarkable for their age..the AWD and the power you can generate from the engine is awesome.

Nothing under 4500rpm? My old man's gets power lower than that, all the way up to about 8000rpm. Big power band in anyones book.
And again to stress, I'm not trying to promote Jap cars etc etc, I'm a holden/HSV V8 man through and through, (thats why I drive one!) but fark me you have to appreciate a decent machine when one performs well.

Yeah the original R32 GTR is an awesome weapon years ahead of its time. But a bit impractical for day to day use (not to mention insurance). In 16 years Australia still havnt produced a car that can beat it around a track. THough I really like the look/specs of these 6.0L HSV's - reading that MOTOR article they look like a right weapon - if only they could get the chassis/tyre setup optimised - as you can see I own a BA XR6 at the moment but there is just something about these 6.0L cars that I like the look off (dont know if i could live with the petrol prices though but any performance car wil lhit you there)

[dominik]

true what your saying, but in terms of a well made turbo car the GT-R is hard to beat performance wise. The technology thats in them is quite remarkable for their age..the AWD and the power you can generate from the engine is awesome. I agree. The RB26DETT is a work of art, and at least 10 years ahead of any six Ford has on the streets or in the works. Ditto for the super HICAS steering. I also reckon the front end on the R34 GT-R is one of the meanest around. Shame the looks of the next GT-R is headed toward Infinity/350Z land. Btw, this isn't Ford bashing, it's just a fact: no way is the Ford 6 in the same league as the GTR's. Not yet anyway.

[Merlin]

I agree. The RB26DETT is a work of art, and at least 10 years ahead of any six Ford has on the streets or in the works. Ditto for the super HICAS steering. I also reckon the front end on the R34 GT-R is one of the meanest around. Shame the looks of the next GT-R is headed toward Infinity/350Z land. Btw, this isn't Ford bashing, it's just a fact: no way is the Ford 6 in the same league as the GTR's. Not yet anyway.

Same could be said for the Holden 6 if your going to split hairs - in fact any manufacturer besdies BMWs M3 engine

[dominik]

Same could be said for the Holden 6 if your going to split hairs - in fact any manufacturer besdies BMWs M3 engine Sure, I agree with what you said entirely. I would have mentioned the Holden six if it was being discussed in the same context. As you said, the E46 inline six is probably the only one in the same league that comes to mind. Credit where it's due... Nissan's GTR is one heck of a car.

[MIC33R]

Sure, I agree with what you said entirely. I would have mentioned the Holden six if it was being discussed in the same context. As you said, the E46 inline six is probably the only one in the same league that comes to mind. Credit where it's due... Nissan's GTR is one heck of a car.

The RB26DETT engine is pretty good, but it's starting to get a little long in the tooth now. It's also very much a race engine as it has its torque quite high in the rev range. The VQ engines that Nissan use in almost everything they sell are much smoother and are just as powerful/torquey (VQ30DET). Both engines produce around 400Nm torque, but the VQ30DET does it at 3600rpm, whereas the RB does it at 4400rpm. For an every day car with a lot of power, I'd take a VQ powered engine. Then you've got Toyota, who have a 2.5L turbo engine that makes 380Nm at 2400rpm. I guess what I'm saying is that there are plenty of other Japanese engines that are better for a road car.

One other thing - From what I've heard over on SAU, Nissan are actually using a VQ engine in their R34 GTRs in the JGTC and the next GTR will most likely have some form of VQ engine in it.

BTW I haven't mentioned power figures for any of these engines because they all magically have 206kW, so we can't really do any comparisons there as we all know they more than that.

[NinetySix]

if you accept its impracticalities and your going to go for a jap sports coupe, id go for a supra IMHO ... oodles of torque. i know the RB26 is a good motor, but the 2JZ is better and nobody can deny that ;)

AWD is great for traffic light GP tho. but a RWD with a bigger sequential turbo'd engine is much more of a drivers car :cool:


as for hicas... ive never heard anything good about it??? on almost every car its used on (eg skylines, silvias, 300zx) its disabled most the time, tho usually to do with it playing up... but the first thing gibson motorsport did to their GTR's which won 2 back to back bathurst titles was to disable the hicas... go figure :p

[MIC33R]

if you accept its impracticalities and your going to go for a jap sports coupe, id go for a supra IMHO ... oodles of torque. i know the RB26 is a good motor, but the 2JZ is better and nobody can deny that ;)

AWD is great for traffic light GP tho. but a RWD with a bigger sequential turbo'd engine is much more of a drivers car :cool:


as for hicas... ive never heard anything good about it??? on almost every car its used on (eg skylines, silvias, 300zx) its disabled most the time, tho usually to do with it playing up... but the first thing gibson motorsport did to their GTR's which won 2 back to back bathurst titles was to disable the hicas... go figure :p

Yeah I agree. The 2JZ is a better engine for the street by far. The VVTi 1JZ too. Not sure I agree with the AWD statement though. How often do you see people holding their engines at 6000rpm waiting for the light to go green? I know if I had an AWD car I certainly wouldn't be doing that. Then again, I'm not really a street racer.

I quite like the HICAS on my car. It's just no good for racing from what I hear. It just helps with stability from what I can tell, so it's a bit of a freeway thing.

[NinetySix]

im saying that AWD is a big attraction to people who mainly care about traffic light GP, as they rarely disappoint. never driven a GTR, but do they need that little extra bootfull to get them off the line like other 4wd's (ie rexies, gsr's) that just love to bog down? i guess atessa only kicks in if the rears are churning


you ever had any problem with the hicas? ive heard of it getting awful wobbly when going in a straight line when its on its way out :confused:

[Merlin]

Yeah I agree. The 2JZ is a better engine for the street by far. The VVTi 1JZ too. Not sure I agree with the AWD statement though. How often do you see people holding their engines at 6000rpm waiting for the light to go green? I know if I had an AWD car I certainly wouldn't be doing that. Then again, I'm not really a street racer.

I quite like the HICAS on my car. It's just no good for racing from what I hear. It just helps with stability from what I can tell, so it's a bit of a freeway thing.

I agree about the AWD statement - I used to own a VR4 - terrible thing to launch, always bogged down - the only way to get a quick launch was to rev the bejeesus out of it then drop the clutch. This resulted in awesome acceleration but a smelly smokin clutch. I hate that sort of mechanical abuse so I just used to take off slow then boot it - kinda defeated having AWD in the first place though.

[MIC33R]

im saying that AWD is a big attraction to people who mainly care about traffic light GP, as they rarely disappoint. never driven a GTR, but do they need that little extra bootfull to get them off the line like other 4wd's (ie rexies, gsr's) that just love to bog down? i guess atessa only kicks in if the rears are churning


you ever had any problem with the hicas? ive heard of it getting awful wobbly when going in a straight line when its on its way out :confused:

Ah ok, well if that's what you mean, then AWD is perfect for them.

I've only ever been in 1 GTR, so really couldn't comment on whether they bog down or not. They are primarily a RWD car that has the fronts kicking in if traction is lost. They woulld still bog a little I'd say. It's probably best if someone who owns one jumps on here and answers that question though.

I've had a problem with my HICAS, but it was just a sensor problem. Generally it's pretty easy to fix.

[Emre]

Of course they bog down. When you have grip on 4 corners, it's a tad harder to break traction, hence launching @ high rpm.

The good point is that, the GTR is built to take that punishment all day. A healthy clutch will cope very well at stock power level and the rest of the drivetrain can take a heck of a lot more.

A dead stock GTR will do 13s out of the box and will be as reliable as any other car.

A GTR equipped with factory turbos will develop its peak torque at 4250 rpm. I don't consider that high, as it redlines @ 8000 rpm in R33 & R34.

One with a mild turbo upgrade like 2530s, will develop max torque at around 5500 rpm, but will rev safely to 8500 rpm.

Practicality depends on your needs, needless to say, my GTR is very practical for me. It is as practical as any 2 door vehicle can get.

Nothing wrong with HICAS on road use. In a competitive environment on the track, most chose to disable it for more predictable behaviour.


Back to the comparison, it is a good read, but I found the one between the WRX STI and Kia Rio Sport a lot more entertaining. That Cochburn is a genius with words.

[dominik]

Nothing wrong with HICAS on road use. In a competitive environment on the track, most chose to disable it for more predictable behaviour. I've never owned a GTR however everyone I've known or talked to who has owned one basically echoed everything you just said. When I brought up HICAS earlier in the thread I was referring to its performance on the street and not the track. As a passenger impressed by its handling, it's fair to say what I experienced was the synchronicity of the whole package and not just the HICAS.

What it ships with in stock form from the engine (you summed it up well) to steering to braking to the advanced awd traction control system (attessa-something), the list goes on... really is pretty special. For the money there still isn't much that comes close to that level of sophistication, even if it is 5+ years old. From the current crop of production cars the M3 comes to mind however its tuning capabilities are obviously not in the same league.

[Mickey T]

I should have reworded my remark. The only saving grace for the Commodore is it's engine. From Motor, Feb '05, P55

Motor don't hide the fact that they like cars that are quick down the 1/4 mile, so no one should be surprised that all the attention is drawn to the Typhoon's lack of 0-100 km/h and 400m performance. Lucky for HSV Motor favour cars that are quick, rather than the 'complete' package.

dunno where you get that from, but it reads like a remark made by somebody purporting to know. You clearly don't know. MOTOR does not favour cars that are quick. the Boxster and Boxster S are not "quick", but both have won PCOTY and the S very nearly won Bang For Your Bucks as well.

by contrast, no HSV has ever won PCOTY (no local car, for that), the fastest straight line car (off the top of my head) has never won either PCOTY or BFYB.

Please, if you want it to air your opinion about MOTOR, i'm happy for you to do so, but it's your opinion, not a statement of fact, and be prepared to be challenged about it if you're clearly at odds with what we actually test for.

[PepeLePew]

To add to that, attention is drawn to the lack of 0-100 and 400m performance because they are THERE, and no one expected it. I dont think its anything to do with bias of any description.

Why is it so as the great man once said? Man I'd still kick ass for a F6 in my driveway :)

[F6 Hoon]

dunno where you get that from, but it reads like a remark made by somebody purporting to know. You clearly don't know. MOTOR does not favour cars that are quick. the Boxster and Boxster S are not "quick", but both have won PCOTY and the S very nearly won Bang For Your Bucks as well.

by contrast, no HSV has ever won PCOTY (no local car, for that), the fastest straight line car (off the top of my head) has never won either PCOTY or BFYB.

Please, if you want it to air your opinion about MOTOR, i'm happy for you to do so, but it's your opinion, not a statement of fact, and be prepared to be challenged about it if you're clearly at odds with what we actually test for.

Read it how you want, I never purported it as fact. It's my opinion, based on how I interpret comments by journalists in articles of Motor, and the Editors comments in his monthly column.

Motor or Wheels magazines, probably both owned by ACP, change their minds about which car is the better car (SS vs. XR8) about as many times as people have hot meals.

I clearly do know no one should form an opinion of a car by reading an article written in Motor or Wheels; an educated person would drive a car then form an opinion.

[Daz Vx Clubbie]

dunno where you get that from, but it reads like a remark made by somebody purporting to know. You clearly don't know. MOTOR does not favour cars that are quick. the Boxster and Boxster S are not "quick", but both have won PCOTY and the S very nearly won Bang For Your Bucks as well.

by contrast, no HSV has ever won PCOTY (no local car, for that), the fastest straight line car (off the top of my head) has never won either PCOTY or BFYB.

Please, if you want it to air your opinion about MOTOR, i'm happy for you to do so, but it's your opinion, not a statement of fact, and be prepared to be challenged about it if you're clearly at odds with what we actually test for.


Speaking of MOTOR's PCOTY did anyone read the article about MOTOR excluding the Typhoon from this year's PCOTY?

They broke 2 clutches during PCOTY assesment and one prior to that!! Looks like Ford have a slightly bigger problem than inconsistant peak power figures to worry about!

It's a shame really as the Typhoon has the specs to be a formidable competitor.

Daz

[NinetySix]

last year called, they want their news back :rolleyes:

[Daz Vx Clubbie]

last year called, they want their news back :rolleyes:

Oh... Looks like I should open my eyes:o

[ls1350]

What the artical total me was that the other car company
need force induction to keep up with the hsv cars :D

[NinetySix]

this is what happens when alcohol is placed within reach of the keyboard :rolleyes:

[Chris52]

this is what happens when alcohol is placed within reach of the keyboard :rolleyes:


Good reply.... :lol:

[Buf-Phoon]

Interesting to read this thread , general consensus elsewhere is that FPV have basically stuffed it up large. Obviously the Phoon was released before it was ready. This car had and still has heaps of potential , unfortunately now aftermarket as FPV in their collective wisdom have nobbled it in favour of the GT ...........WTF

Just get the best product out their , chopping the boost off at post 4500rpms aint going to help the cars times , some would say a lot of extra coin for stock sub-optimal performance. Think I will stick with my T for a while yet.

May 2006 I will look closely and test drive all vehicles within my budget, and if it is a Holden well , so what wouldn't be the first one

[NinetySix]

i dont think the value for money is too bad...

nice chunky conrods are a bonus.


you'll just have to add ~1000-1500 to get it edit'd to make it really shine like it should.

unless FPV do wonders with their V8's (blowers?) then sooner or later they are just going to have to own up to the 4.0T being their true flagship and release them with 300+kw as standard :cool:

[Daz Vx Clubbie]

i dont think the value for money is too bad...

nice chunky conrods are a bonus.


you'll just have to add ~1000-1500 to get it edit'd to make it really shine like it should.

unless FPV do wonders with their V8's (blowers?) then sooner or later they are just going to have to own up to the 4.0T being their true flagship and release them with 300+kw as standard :cool:

As others have already suggested I dont think forking out and extra 13K for an F6 is justifyable no matter how 'chunky' the conrods are. Considering the power output, acceleration and handlng can be that similar to a std XR6T.

[M&Ms]

As has been said before, the price you pay for a typhoon basically gets you an optioned up xr6 turbo. If you were to option up 18 inch wheels, premium brakes and luxury interior pack with premium sound on an XR6 urbo, you'd come close to what you would pay for a typhoon (well, you might stil be $4K better off), and all this stuff comes standard on the typhoon. So if anyone is only after straight line performance and couldn't care less about anything else a car has to offer, the $13K worth of mods on a XR6T will be the only way to go, and good on them too.

[NinetySix]

not to mention stronger engine internals, bigger intercooler, extra CAI ... probably bigger injectors too id say.. and theres the twin plate clutch, which im sure ford will fix it sooner or later... either way the stock xr6t clutch wont last long with 550nm+ through it.

not sure what fpv do to the suspension but apprently its a little tweaked over the xr6..

[Nobby]

I'm pretty sure it has stiffer suspension (more sporty or whatever).

[NODDY347]

not to mention stronger engine internals, bigger intercooler, extra CAI ... probably bigger injectors too id say.. and theres the twin plate clutch, which im sure ford will fix it sooner or later... either way the stock xr6t clutch wont last long with 550nm+ through it.

not sure what fpv do to the suspension but apprently its a little tweaked over the xr6..

Not 100% sure but i'm sure i read that Fpv didn't increase the size of injectors on the phoon.

[Swordie]

I saw the latest EVO on BBC's Top Gear. They gave the car a good rap and raced it against Lamborghini, Gallardo 5.0 that has 375KW. The EVO kept up with the thing around the test track.

Then they tested the EVO against a small 4 cylinder hatch similar in range to a Barina. The test was cruise along in top gear at around the 60 - 80K range and plant the foot. The EVO was left behind for the first few seconds as it wasn’t on boot, soon as boost cut in there was no contest.

[NinetySix]

wow whats that supposed to prove...

the barina is probably close to its peak torque figure at 80 in top gear :lol:

[Swordie]

wow whats that supposed to prove...

the barina is probably close to its peak torque figure at 80 in top gear :lol:


It proved it had no balls down low which would be more relevant in day to day driving. You would probably expect this of a 4cyl boosted to the shithouse.

[Merlin]

It proved it had no balls down low which would be more relevant in day to day driving. You would probably expect this of a 4cyl boosted to the shithouse.

unless they drove it like they were supposed to and dropped down a gear. :p

(though i do agree, its much easier simply to 'cruise' in the V8)

[clixanup]

Then they tested the EVO against a small 4 cylinder hatch similar in range to a Barina. The test was cruise along in top gear at around the 60 - 80K range and plant the foot. The EVO was left behind for the first few seconds as it wasn’t on boot, soon as boost cut in there was no contest.

Here's what really happened:

The car they tested against was a Fiat Panda. They were both in top gear at 30 mph. The test was to "floor it" in both cars to see what happened. 1.7 km later the test finished just as the EVO was starting to come on boost, by which time the Fiat was well and truly ahead.

Quoting Clarkson: "The EVO 8 is a bit like Jordan. I can see why they did it, but I think they just went too far."

[Merlin]

Here's what really happened:

The car they tested against was a Fiat Panda. They were both in top gear at 30 mph. The test was to "floor it" in both cars to see what happened. 1.7 km later the test finished just as the EVO was starting to come on boost, by which time the Fiat was well and truly ahead.

Quoting Clarkson: "The EVO 8 is a bit like Jordan. I can see why they did it, but I think they just went too far."

Top gear is weird sometimes - how does that have any relevance to "day to day" driving. 30mph is about 48.6km/h. Why the hell would you be driving ANY car (let alone a boosted turbo) in top gear at 48km/h??? If the point was to demonstrate day to day driving ability then they would have dropped down a gear or two - who here is in the habit of giving it WOT in 6th whilst doing 48km/h??? :eek:

[clixanup]

Top gear is weird sometimes - how does that have any relevance to "day to day" driving. 30mph is about 48.6km/h. Why the hell would you be driving ANY car (let alone a boosted turbo) in top gear at 48km/h??? If the point was to demonstrate day to day driving ability then they would have dropped down a gear or two - who here is in the habit of giving it WOT in 6th whilst doing 48km/h??? :eek:

The low speed/top gear test is one of Clarkson's favourites.

He did the same in the new VW Golf GTi, and it took off like a rocket...

Re: Top Gear and "day to day" driving, I don't often get to drive my car sideways around corners at 100km/h like those blokes. If they didn't do the extreme things they do, it would be a much more boring show.

[Merlin]

Re: Top Gear and "day to day" driving, I don't often get to drive my car sideways around corners at 100km/h like those blokes. If they didn't do the extreme things they do, it would be a much more boring show.

Too right - I love the show - the "Day to day" comment was directed at a different post:



It proved it had no balls down low which would be more relevant in day to day driving.

[Nobby]

Just quietly, I dont think we should be discussing the sensibilities of these tests in comparison to normal daily driving, when some of us are fixated on quarter mile performance figures to the nearest hundredths of a second, the results of which can seemingly determin if a car is SHIT! or GREAT!. :-D

[vuster]

Hi guys,

I currently have a F6 on order and it has been an emotional rollercoaster ride reading the magazine reviews and also the F6 bashing that has been going on one of the Ford forums. I am near to the point where I may be withdrawing my order. I just wanted to say that the posts in this thread are more liberal and I actually feel as though I am in a Ford Forum which is very ironic.
On the ford site, there are a whole bunch of XR6T owners flaming the F6 saying that there car is faster this and that and F6 owners are pretty much fed up. It's like SS drivers flaming HSV's.
There's more respect here for the F6 then on the Ford forum. Funny isn't it?

[RICHO]

Hi guys,

I currently have a F6 on order and it has been an emotional rollercoaster ride reading the magazine reviews and also the F6 bashing that has been going on one of the Ford forums. I am near to the point where I may be withdrawing my order. I just wanted to say that the posts in this thread are more liberal and I actually feel as though I am in a Ford Forum which is very ironic.
On the ford site, there are a whole bunch of XR6T owners flaming the F6 saying that there car is faster this and that and F6 owners are pretty much fed up. It's like SS drivers flaming HSV's.
There's more respect here for the F6 then on the Ford forum. Funny isn't it?

I wouldn't pay any attention to the F6 bashing over on FF. One of the reasons I now spend more time here, is the exact behaviour you're talking about over at FF. (although I suspect much of that may be coming from pimply faced teenages who don't yet have a licence!!).

Quite simply discussions tend to be much more even over here.

And as for your order, I certainly wouldn't cancel it. While I'm no longer "in the industry", I had the opportunity to drive an F6 on a number of occasions before a change of jobs and as a car you'll be driving probably daily it will be brilliant!! And if anyone in a modded XR6-T gives you the challenge at the lights. Just let him / her go and smile as you think about their voided warranty, their huge insurance, their engine longevity and the hideous resale value of their modded car and all so they can beat you between traffic lights or at the drags? :rolleyes:

I have no doubt you'll enjoy the more comfortable seats the better brakes the stronger engine internals, the more upmarket interior, the more than adequate performance too much to care about what a few forum trolls may think.

And as for picking a website to visit and talk cars...hang around here for a while, I think you'll enjoy it! :cheers:

[myles]

VUSTER, from what I've gathered through the reviews I've read, the Typhoon looks to be an awesome ride. Those Ford forums are way too negative, people there seemed to believe the Typhoon was going to launch into outer space. I haven't seen one yet on the road, but I know my head will turn.

There's been a mistake using the double-plate clutch when the single would have coped adequately. But the power issue compared to the LS2 HSV, although it's only speculation, FPV not wanting to exceed the GT and disappoint the V8 owners doesn't mean the car after a few tweaks won't be able to pull some serious power.

After a few adjustments, everything else whether it be its braking, handling and the overall package won't need any upgrading.

All you have to ask yourself is do you see yourself in that car? If I had the dough I'd drive one.

[Dacious]

There's been a mistake using the double-plate clutch when the single would have coped adequately.

Done properly, a double-plate clutch will provide better grip and lower pedal pressure than a single-plate unit, along with longer life due to the extra wearing surface. I saw both under destruction test at Repco in the 70's - the old Falcon twinplate will sustain abuse the singleplate just wilts under. Unfortunately the twinplate has a tighter assembly tolerance spec than the single, or it won't release makig gear engagement from stationary a bastard - always its' bugbear. :(

The problem with the F6 clutch appears to be with the throwout linkage and may even just be a setup issue - not the design or strength of the components. A single plate large enough to live with the torque would need to be 11" or so in daimeter with a very high clamp-load cover assembly not to slip = high effort at the pedal = short engagement throw = awkward to drive = not much fun to change gear with. :bash:

Please don't say you think the stock GM LS# unit is sufficient - I smoked mine the other day trying to take off fast with 4 people on board. :mad:

[myles]

Dacious, your posts are always informative. You are full of knowledge. :beer:

Regarding the F6, I gave the ford forums a bit more of a read. I remember reading about one person here (http://www.fordforums.com/search.php?searchid=541478&pp=25&page=1) who couldn't wait to buy a Typhoon he had on order.

I checked back to see how happy he was with his purchase but it seems all he has had is problem after problem. I know this is listing one buyer, but it is an insight into a buyer's experience of poor customer service to parts of the car falling apart.

From this link (http://www.fordforums.com/showthread.php?t=85716): "Went into my favourite ford dealer today after much impatience inspired agonising and signed up for a Typhoon. It is an extremely bright yellow, "Rapid" is the paint name and although I'm not usually big on Yellow, this colour looks awesome on the Typhoon and I can have it earlier than waiting for lightening strike for which the waiting times kept extending. The strangest thing of all was the price, including WAs criminal S/Duty and leather $66666 on the road Go figure?

To this link (http://www.fordforums.com/showthread.php?t=93035&page=2&pp=10): "Don't worry mate, I was silly enough to buy one as well. I think that the Journos are 100% correct and I hope the FPV Typhoon sales suffer badly for all the untrue pre release hype. I think we have to look at who is actually telling the truth here. There would be no reason to have the cars driven and then give false reports. What is is, the Typhoon is an over priced under powered buck of sh!t that should be at the back of the FPV and XR6T line . Sure you can put APS UNICHIPS and flashers and bigger injectors etc in it and it will go like stink, but that can never make it a quick production car AND IT ISN'T"

[Dacious]

Yeah, sorry Myles, not intending to have a go at you and my post read a bit that way. The circuit racing LS1 clutch some use with the Hollinger box is a multi-plate ceramic disc setup actually smaller in diameter than stock - I've seen photos of the one in the British racing Monaro - Emotional Engineering? Leads to acceptable pedal pressure and handles 600hp, but very much on/off. Stall or spin the wheels.

I think the F6 is a bit flawed in current execution but on the right track. Wait 'til some of these modded XR6s get a few k's up. Then people will see the point of the upgraded internals.

[myles]

I was actually being serious. You have a lot of info in that brain of yours, you know your stuff! I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. :cheers:

[Swordie]

Generally when the HSV vs Holden and F6 vs XR6T debate is visited the over all cost of holding car is not assessed accurately. For example a modified low spec Holden compared to lower spec HSV will generally cost a similar amount to keep over a 3 year period. The modified Holden will have more risk due to insurance and resale issues. Most people who buy the higher brand image cars (Eg HSV) are not really interested in modifying cars. 0-100 and ¼ mile debates are not the only measure of car. Bang for buck a bike is hard to beat.

[Oztrack Tuning]

80-100 1.1-1.2
100-130 2.2s

80-120 2.8s

80 in second in an A4 3.73 is nice 4200 rpm through to 6300 at 120

[m@w8]

Here's what really happened:

The car they tested against was a Fiat Panda. They were both in top gear at 30 mph. The test was to "floor it" in both cars to see what happened. 1.7 km later the test finished just as the EVO was starting to come on boost, by which time the Fiat was well and truly ahead.

Quoting Clarkson: "The EVO 8 is a bit like Jordan. I can see why they did it, but I think they just went too far."

Actually the car was the EVO 8 FQ400 which is UK specific, and makes 300kW (with a warranty) So it has a huge turbo, and lots of lag. As Clarkson pointed out, the FQ340 and FQ360 (you can work out the power figures) are much more driveable, but again, these are UK-specific version of the EVO 8.