HSV's dollar chasing blunting performance

[VZSS250]

The HSV product is great, but it is starting to drift further away from the exotic european sports cars than ever before.

In the past, HSV owners have been adament that HSV's abandonment of its boy racer image in favour of a more sophisticated approach has been beneficial to the product.

In this month's Motor magazine it is evident that HSV's targeting of the 40 year old plus family man market is starting to erode its performance credentials.

Although the LS2 is a ripper of an engine, HSV's constant attempts to incorparate Cadillac-like luxury into their performance cars to satisfy their new market of middle aged men has led to seconds being taken off track times.

In the article, Motor attacks the tyre choice, commenting on the weak sidewalls which roll under when cornering hard. HSV's argument...? These tyres are more suited to daily driving.

This is the new style HSV attitude which has been bred in an environment where their buyers want to appear like performance car enthousiasts at the lights, but not have to suffer the inconveniences of a car that can deliver better track times.

This is the new attitude which is delivering the straight line punch which makes a family man smile but is sacrificing every young blokes wet dream of carving up peak hour traffic with surgical precision and meeting the apex of every twist and turn of a winding road. This is unlikely to happen in the hands of a responsible person, but knowing a car is capable of this is enough.

[RhysB]

The HSV product is great, but it is starting to drift further away from the exotic european sports cars than ever before..

When were they ever close? I mean compare them to an E55 or an Audi A8. Holy shite, theres no comparison.




In this month's Motor magazine it is evident that HSV's targeting of the 40 year old plus family man market is starting to erode its performance credentials.

Why target the 18 year olds who just want to get sideways (on and off the track). Its the 40+ age brackets whom can afford them.



Although the LS2 is a ripper of an engine, HSV's constant attempts to incorparate Cadillac-like luxury into their performance cars to satisfy their new market of middle aged men has led to seconds being taken off track times.

Damn, I drove a Maloo VZ, and it wasnt very similar to that of a Caddilac.

Do you think a 50 year old Builder with 4 kids who buys a Clubsport cares what time it does around QLD Raceway? I dont.




This is the new style HSV attitude which has been bred in an environment where their buyers want to appear like performance car enthousiasts at the lights, but not have to suffer the inconveniences of a car that can deliver better track times.

Whats the problem with that?



every young blokes wet dream of carving up peak hour traffic with surgical precision and meeting the apex of every twist and turn of a winding road.

Cant say Ive ever had a wet one like that :rolleyes:

Sorry mate. I just dont know what you expect a Holden to deliver. RB

[Knight Phlier]

VZSS50 - I can see the point that you are making.

However don't you think that HSV have changed that image a little by releasing the LS2 in their cars before Holden? I think the LS2 has brought that performance back too where it should be for HSV - Higher than that of a stock Commodore (With a few mods). To this I hope that when Holden release the VE with the LS2, that HSV move to a 6.2 Litre motor to again differentiate it.

[Merlin]

IMO HSV is closer than ever before to the euro supercars (in a straight line at least). Its all Aussies seem to want anyway - sledgehammer performance in a straight line - its why HSV sell and FPV is being laughed at. How often to you get some goon tailgaiting you down a straight then you leave them for dead at the first corner when they almost come to a complete stop?

Personally I would want a car that delivers both straight line and cornering performance - HSV have always had a chassis 'inferiority' to the Fords/Euros ect (in recent memory) but it is not at a level that undermines its performance for the average Joe.

Having said that HSV will have cars that are stripped down racer eg. GTS-R but if you fork out $60K+ for a new car you expect some luxuries - look at the EVO, it now has a/c, CD ect. its want buyers want.

[dominik]

Having said that HSV will have cars that are stripped down racer eg. GTS-R but if you fork out $60K+ for a new car you expect some luxuries - look at the EVO, it now has a/c, CD ect. its want buyers want. Good point. I remember taking a look at the EVO VIs about 3 years ago which were selling for around $80K and the interior was so dodgy that unless you were flogging that thing like a sports car all the time (read: flirting with speeding fines) you'd have felt like you were getting around in a $20K Lancer. I think they brought around 200 into the country and probably sold 1 for every 100 STIs Subaru sold. Maybe things have improved a bit with the EVO 8 but surely it's still on the "pov" side. Let's face it, when you're paying big bucks, you want an interior that has a few luxuries.

Btw, I'll never forget the line the salesman used on me. "Don't think of it as being 20 grand more than the STi. Think of it as being 200 grand less than a Porsche." Exit stage left. Comparing an EVO to one of Germany's finest sports cars? What a shocker.

[mgygto]

I actually think that HSV are being much clearer on the difference between Performance & Luxury - compare a GTO to a Coupe4 side by side or an R8 with Senator. If you want more of a boy racer approach just option in some after market stuff either though the likes of PWR or after market performance shops- no big deal. Me I'm waiting until the LS2 gets dropped into the Coupe4 :)

[Red CV8 R]

HSVs biggest issue is its chasis and refinment/quality. Until these are delt with dont even think european competition. The boy racer styling and HSV bogan image wont help either. Adding a point of difference with the LS2 engine was a good move though. Also HSV can only really do slight improvements to what Holden gives them so unless Holdenchanges neither will HSV. Having said that I dont think many HSV buyers care about the handling and dynamics of their cars, just make it the fastest in a straight line.

However I think the market for HSVs has changed since the early days and is now more mainstream Holden buyer who is a bit older and has a bit more disposable income. Most likely to be working class or middle class and be successful at a trade or their own business. They probably wouldnt buy a euro but will drop some decent cash on a local top end model. I dont believe this was the initial market in the VN/VP and VR/VS days. I am positive I have read this somewhere from HSVs own research and it seems right to me.

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

A lot of manufacturers have started cramming in the luxuries now and I think a lot of it has to do with lighter materials and also market demand. Think about how Porsches are now compared to the 911's of the 80's and before.
A lot of people miss those sought of cars now that were bare essential racers. As a younger HSV owner I am more than happy with my harsh ride, my fat bucket seats, and interior console no more better fitted then an executive at the time. When I bought my car all I wanted was something that could corner, stop and go hard in straight lines.
But as people have said, the people that can buy HSV's new are the 40 somethings and are (in the majority of cases) more interested in comfort than hooning or doing track work as they know from past experiences its easier to break something driving hard then nursing it.
But yes there are still those of the older generations who are still boy racers at heart and maybe they should consider producing the R8 or another GTS as a "pure" racer as they used to be up to the VTII period.
I havent had a real good look at the new HSV range but it doesnt look like there's much difference in it between an optioned up clubby and a senator anymore.

[Mongy]

Well, I think HSV have got it right. They have successfully identified their prime customer base and they have given them what the majority wants. 10 points from me for that.

[Red CV8 R]

Well, I think HSV have got it right. They have successfully identified their prime customer base and they have given them what the majority wants. 10 points from me for that.

I should have added similar to what you wrote as I completely agree, HSV dont need to change what they are doing as they have identified their market and are having no issues selling cars! It is not what I look for in a car but there a plenty of people who find the car a perfect fit! I just think HSV should stop trying to be something they are not, and FPV probably need to start copying more of HSVs game plan!

[Merlin]

I just think HSV should stop trying to be something they are not, and FPV probably need to start copying more of HSVs game plan!

Ah summed it up perfectly

[Beej]

On the issue of Motor complaining about the OEM tyres excessive sidewall flex - any serious weekend racer who bought there Clubsport/GTO for that purpose would be fitting semi-comp rubber for their weekend track excursions anyway - otherwise you will be one of the slowest cars out there! ;) So HSV going for tyres that deliver good touring comfort over outright track performance is probably not such a bad thing anyway - again as others have said - it comes down to them undertsanding their market - which they do - quite well it would seem!

Cheers,

Beej

[GEN III]

Ever since Tod Wilkinshore went bankrupt his lack financial and technical input to HSV has had a big impact. He was the driving force between HSV and HRT. Both are really going downhill. I see posts on these forums all the time about people complaining about the interiors and other features of the modern HSV's. I dont own a HSV but I can see the HSV (heritage) of old going and a new "marketing" side of HSV taking over. It's like all things these day's. You pay more for less, and I guess it's happening with cars too.

This is my opinion but I belive it to be valid to an extent.

I still love Holden and HSV & HRT dont get me wrong.

[Merlin]

On the issue of Motor complaining about the OEM tyres excessive sidewall flex - any serious weekend racer who bought there Clubsport/GTO for that purpose would be fitting semi-comp rubber for their weekend track excursions anyway - otherwise you will be one of the slowest cars out there! ;) So HSV going for tyres that deliver good touring comfort over outright track performance is probably not such a bad thing anyway - again as others have said - it comes down to them undertsanding their market - which they do - quite well it would seem!

Cheers,

Beej

Just a question - was the issue due to the make of the OEM Tyres or was it due to the poor suspension/chassis design?

Serious question, I really don't know the answer.

Also MOTOR suggested cup tyres be made an option.

[VooDoo]

When was the last time HSV let you drive your car at a track without voiding warrenties?? They are road car not a race car. Most HSV owners drive them on the roads and want comfort and not on the edge performance. They clearly are not marketing to enthusists as much as the 40yr old guy having a MLC (Mid life crisis). Some of the cars have options for better brakes, suspensions, tyres and soon superchargers which a portion of the market want. Its still a very small portion though (ok... that portion is all here, but we arent a normal cross section of the public)

HSV have got it just right. Better performance than the family hack, plenty of comfort and class and the potencial to go a lot better if required. Its a hard market to pick but looking at sales figures... they seem to be doing ok.

[HSVMAN]

I wouldnt call standard fitment of P Zeros to the entire VZ range of sedans "daily driving tyres" ???? :eek:
Normally reserved for High powered Euros..... :confused:

[Beej]

Just a question - was the issue due to the make of the OEM Tyres or was it due to the poor suspension/chassis design?

Serious question, I really don't know the answer.

Also MOTOR suggested cup tyres be made an option.

I didn't read the article but going by the post that started this thread - it claimed they were talking specifically about the tyres and tyre sidewall flex.

Cheers,

Beej

[mavss]

They clearly are not marketing to enthusists as much as the 40yr old guy having a MLC (Mid life crisis).
Matter of fact.....I'm having one right now :)

The VZ Clubbie with the GenIV looks like an amazing package and for $60 large, it's reasonably priced too.

[VZKOOP]

A recent article in Motor Magazine gave the demographics of the average Monaro buyer - I reckon you could just about transpose these figures for the average HSV buyer;
37% earn more than 120K
43% are between 25 & 44
48% didn't consider anything else
66% don't have children
12 percent are divorced or separated

What does it all mean? Buggered if I know. But let me say this - if the target market is someone who values performance and comfort then they got me spot on.
Suggesting that HSV makes a soft car is really stretching the boundaries. Go for a back to back drive in a V6 Commy and any HSV (Choose the Senator or the Grange - the really soft ones) and if you still think they are soft you probably didn't actually drive the HSV out of the carpark.
I went from a AUIII Futura to a Monaro and the only comparison that can be made is that they are both cars. (Still have the Futura by the way any interested parties offers over $17500 will be considered) The Ford is about as soft and pedestrian as you could get in a big car yet it filled my needs perfectly for the time I had it. I still drive it from time to time but when I get out of the blue "whale" and into the silver "wahoo" (a type of fish) (very fast and agile fish) (silver too) it's like I just hopped into a race car and the Monaro is the "soft" option to a HSV.

You just wait 'til I get my zorst and edit I'm gonna go a huntin' those pesky "soft" HSV's and show em how a real car goes....... :nutkick:

[Red CV8 R]

I reckon they would be a different set of buyers myself, especially the 66% dont have Children stat and the 43% are between 25 & 44. Also a VZ Monaro is a bout as tuff as an HSV I would think! They a did a great job on the driveline of the VZ Monaro.

[Bully]

I personally like the fact they are made to be nice enough to cruise around town in. We are fortunate enough to be able to afford one, but not fortunate enough to be able to leave it locked in the shed and only driven on weekends for a fang through the hills. Be realistic, if HSV didnt build their cars to be daily drivers (as ours is) do you really think they would sell even a quarter of the cars they do now??????

[mgygto]

Also a VZ Monaro is a bout as tuff as an HSV I would think! They a did a great job on the driveline of the VZ Monaro.

Not even close .... if you drive the VZ Monaro (which is a fine vehicle) followed by the VZ GTO they are streets apart, completely different feel from the LS1 to the LS2 as a starter, the steering etc etc etc. As with many of the "paper" comparisions its not till you actually drive the cars that you realise that HSV is much more than a badge change from the basic holden.
:)

[Red CV8 R]

Not even close .... if you drive the VZ Monaro (which is a fine vehicle) followed by the VZ GTO they are streets apart, completely different feel from the LS1 to the LS2 as a starter, the steering etc etc etc. As with many of the "paper" comparisions its not till you actually drive the cars that you realise that HSV is much more than a badge change from the basic holden.
:)

I have driven VY HSV Clubsport R8 and the VZ Monaro and they were pretty close in the short drive I had, however havent driven an LS2 powered car. However I do agree the suspension on the HSV is better then on the Monaro. I should drive an LS2 as I did think my last car will be the only HSV I ever own but the VZ GTO seems to be a great package and I love the look of them. Having said that I wouldnt buy one as they are out of my price range at this time in my life.

[Red CV8 R]

Thinking back on my test drives LS2 aside you really are pushing it saying streets apart, they really did feel quite similar to me. There was no mistaking the Clubsport was a commdore that is for sure!

[PJK]

The HSV product is great, but it is starting to drift further away from the exotic european sports cars than ever before.
I don't think they're drifting further away, the gap just doesn't seem to change much. The euros are always a couple of years ahead.


In the past, HSV owners have been adament that HSV's abandonment of its boy racer image in favour of a more sophisticated approach has been beneficial to the product.
I'd say it has too. After all HSV is Holdens premium performance brand and it's products should fit this category.


In this month's Motor magazine it is evident that HSV's targeting of the 40 year old plus family man market is starting to erode its performance credentials.
How so (haven't seen the article)? HSV cars get better and faster with every new model, every body knows that, and that's the way it has always been.


Although the LS2 is a ripper of an engine, HSV's constant attempts to incorparate Cadillac-like luxury into their performance cars to satisfy their new market of middle aged men has led to seconds being taken off track times.
I would think that the only time a new HSV may have lost time around the track compared to an older model would be between VS - VT models.


In the article, Motor attacks the tyre choice, commenting on the weak sidewalls which roll under when cornering hard. HSV's argument...? These tyres are more suited to daily driving.
Motor must have forgotten that HSV's are road cars mainly used for daily driving.


This is the new style HSV attitude which has been bred in an environment where their buyers want to appear like performance car enthousiasts at the lights, but not have to suffer the inconveniences of a car that can deliver better track times.
Didn't know HSV buyers want to appear like performance car enthusiasts at the lights.


This is the new attitude which is delivering the straight line punch which makes a family man smile but is sacrificing every young blokes wet dream of carving up peak hour traffic with surgical precision and meeting the apex of every twist and turn of a winding road. This is unlikely to happen in the hands of a responsible person, but knowing a car is capable of this is enough.
The handling abilities of an HSV between 50-80kmh are more than adequate to carve up peak hour traffic. A standard SS will do just fine too.

[bouka]

An interesting thread.

My opinion as a HSV owner? Worry about quality before anything else. These cars cost alot of money (sure, not as much as a euro but lots nonetheless) so before worrying about tyre spec etc lets get the build quality right. Lets sort out mechanical and body issues before releasing a new model and lets not shove our heads in the sand when something goes wrong.

If they are going to market their cars the way they do then back it up. Sure they are just a commy with plastic bits but thats not how they sell them. You are joining an exclusive group etc. When something goes wrong though you get shoved in a line at the local Holden dealer right next to the SV8 owner.

Now don't take this out of context, nothing wrong with SV8, SS etc (nothing at all). But they need to get their stuff together because if you are going to make all those claims then back them up after the sale.

I hope this post is not taken out of context. When do they stop chasing numbers on a badge and start producing a quality product.

Yes our LS1's and LS2's go like shit of a shovel. Yes it is a great price for all that performance. No, that is no excuse for the poor build quality or after sales service.

Before you flame me, stop and think about the last time you had an issue with your HSV (or Holden for that matter) or do a search on the various problems we have with our cars and see how people feel about the problems and the response they get when they attemp to get them fixed.

Will die a holden fan and owner. Will not hold my breath waiting for quality to be addressed before marketing slogans and claims on badges.

[seldo]

Some of the comments on this thread are a very clear indicator that HSV has identified their market very well. Most of the negative comments about the HSV range come from those who probably have never driven one and also possibly would not be able to afford one. Why should HSV build a car to a specification that suits these guys? They are in business to build cars that sell. They have identified that their target market consists largely of more mature buyers (I hate that word old) because they are the guys who can afford them. HSV could just as easily fit them with semi-comp tyres, and rock-hard suspension, but then they are not suitable for everyday driving and their main core of buyers would turn away in droves. And if any one who buys one wants to take it to the track he can also probably justify bolting on a set of track tyres for the day. I'm probably a typical buyer in that I have my own business and have owned pretty much anything worth driving, and I'm damned impressed with my Senator. Compared with other "good" cars I've had, it is a surprisingly good and impressive car which has all the comfort/equipment features as well as an impressive turn of performance (although never quite enough!) and good ride and handling. If it came with a lot of the hard-core stuff some of you guys are asking for, I for one, wouldn't be buying one. If I'd wanted raw-boned WRX or Evo handling and performance, I would have bought that. But even though some see the HSVs as being expensive, I think they are great value especially when you consider the simple reliable maintenance-free transport they provide.
Like I said, most people who knock them have never even driven one, let alone owned one. As for the magazine road tests, they test every car from Renault to a Roller to an R8 as if it was supposed to be a dedicated track car... HSV have got the package pretty well right....IMHO. :)

[SSFreak]

Ever since Tod Wilkinshore went bankrupt...

Tom Walkinshaw.

[The Warden]

In this month's Motor magazine it is evident that HSV's targeting of the 40 year old plus family man market is starting to erode its performance credentials.
.

Erode its performance credentials???? How so...

The price sticker difference between a VY2 and VZ HSV on the showroom floor here in NZ is an additional $400.

The VZ, with the "old man" auto transmission is nearly 1 sec faster 0-100kph and over the 1/4 mile, I call that a quantum leap in perforamce for the same money. That's added value mate, not erosion......

The tyres, as noted my HSVMAN, are P Zero's, they are not manufactured in China Inc, and can hardly be called sub standard. They are standard fitment to a vast majority of top end cars, Lambo's, Zondas (got a spare $1.5mill??) etc....

As for the famous superior Ford chassis, show me a track test where a Ford or FPV gets close to the time of an HSV. Have you considered that if the HSV was driven less full on, to match the Fords time, it wouldn't feel like it was working as hard either.

I admit that the VZ suspension is a bit less firm than the VY, and to me, the cars ride feels much closer to a BA Ford, something the mags have been praising for the last couple of years. I know my wife and kids both commented during our recent holiday drive (1600km) how much better this car is to ride in for the passenger. As the driver I didn't find it a handicap......and the guy on the 600 sportbike I had a wee "duel" with between Marton and Taihape seemed to think my car went pretty good to.... big grin and a thumbs up....as I lead him most of the way....

Do yourself a favour, take an LS2 for for a drive...

Cheers,
Gordie

[Bully]

Some of the comments on this thread are a very clear indicator that HSV has identified their market very well. Most of the negative comments about the HSV range come from those who probably have never driven one and also possibly would not be able to afford one. Why should HSV build a car to a specification that suits these guys? They are in business to build cars that sell. They have identified that their target market consists largely of more mature buyers (I hate that word old) because they are the guys who can afford them. HSV could just as easily fit them with semi-comp tyres, and rock-hard suspension, but then they are not suitable for everyday driving and their main core of buyers would turn away in droves. And if any one who buys one wants to take it to the track he can also probably justify bolting on a set of track tyres for the day. I'm probably a typical buyer in that I have my own business and have owned pretty much anything worth driving, and I'm damned impressed with my Senator. Compared with other "good" cars I've had, it is a surprisingly good and impressive car which has all the comfort/equipment features as well as an impressive turn of performance (although never quite enough!) and good ride and handling. If it came with a lot of the hard-core stuff some of you guys are asking for, I for one, wouldn't be buying one. If I'd wanted raw-boned WRX or Evo handling and performance, I would have bought that. But even though some see the HSVs as being expensive, I think they are great value especially when you consider the simple reliable maintenance-free transport they provide.
Like I said, most people who knock them have never even driven one, let alone owned one. As for the magazine road tests, they test every car from Renault to a Roller to an R8 as if it was supposed to be a dedicated track car... HSV have got the package pretty well right....IMHO. :)

Couldnt agree more, most of the knockers dont own em. I would bloody hate it if my clubby had semi comp tyres & rock hard suspension..... matter of fact I wouldnt have been allowed to buy it if that was the case!!!

[Red CV8 R]

I think HSV just needs to release a stripper version with lots of suspension work, something along the lines of the GTS-R and HRT427, no luxuries and a real hard edge. That should keep everyone happy!

[Danv8]

I know 2 good names for a stripped down version of a HSV.

L or Belmont. :lol:

[VZSS250]

The driveline, suspension, brakes and tyres in Clubsport and GTS need to focus on on track times, even if 99% of these cars will never come close to a track. This is so your money is being spent on racetrack breeding, not just a HSV badge with no substance.

Interior equipment levels should always focus on comfort, not performance. Leather, electronics, etc. are the sought of things which leave you satisfied after handing over $70k for an R8. Nobody really likes to live with a stripped out racer.


If your in desperate need of a V8 status symbol but dont want the above, the senator or grange is for you. Unfortunately these people are wrongly asking for a clubsport, and that is why the clubsport has become so soft since the pre-VT days.

Ofcourse, engine and styling wise, the Clubbie is better than ever before.

[GEN III]

Tom Walkinshaw.


Sorry, I meant the old fart who had a lot of money.

[HSVMAN]

The driveline, suspension, brakes and tyres in Clubsport and GTS need to focus on on track times, even if 99% of these cars will never come close to a track. This is so your money is being spent on racetrack breeding, not just a HSV badge with no substance.
Interior equipment levels should always focus on comfort, not performance. Leather, electronics, etc. are the sought of things which leave you satisfied after handing over $70k for an R8. Nobody really likes to live with a stripped out racer.
If your in desperate need of a V8 status symbol but dont want the above, the senator or grange is for you. Unfortunately these people are wrongly asking for a clubsport, and that is why the clubsport has become so soft since the pre-VT days.

Ofcourse, engine and styling wise, the Clubbie is better than ever before.

Only a small percentage will take their HSV on a track hence the focus on a "Mean sports saloon" suitable for the enthusiast but not available to the masses. If the performance brakes are not enough you can upgrade to Premium or AP Racing Brakes from the factory. As for the tyres they are already premium performance road tyres equal to what is fitted to some of the finest sports cars world wide.
As said earlier you need to get in and drive one and not read meaningless articles. :)

[BlackClubbie]

I own a Vy2 clubby brand new, stock, and it's great as it is. I might do a couple of mods here and there later, but it's probably not going to be engine related. Why ?

1) because 400 ponies under the hood is enough for me to go a get the bread and check the mail.
2) because it would void my warranty.
3) because sometimes i realise when driving that temptation can be overwhelming and that 400 ponies can be bloody dangerous already.


Now i also came to realise that even though it's written HSV and 285 on it, it's basically a hotted up commodore. A nice one of course, but it's not a race car. Sure i love leaving dudes for dead at the lights, but it stops at 80kph / 100kph where i live, and the coppers don't joke about it, i got a speeding fine because i was 5 kays over the other day.

I'm 32, 2 kids, i have a very good business and i never considered anything else than a vy2 r8 (my wife actually got it for me asa birthday present, but she know what i wanted ).
Now, if one day i want to go to the track, i'll buy myself a GTS-R or something that is going to be dedicated to that.

What you guys are doing is all great, but yes, HSVs aren't race cars, they are road cars, whoever thinks that it's time to race when getting our of the garage, whatever car you have is bound to kill himself or kill somebody along the way, or get in big trouble ( mechanical failures happen too ) .

You've got to be able to afford a $60k - $70k - $80 car , that's why they target who can afford that sort of stuff.
Of course, there's always the idiot that paid $5000 for an old vk/vn/... that thinks he can race a vx/vy/vz just to make a point ....ah well ...

[JohnS]

I think HSV just needs to release a stripper version with lots of suspension work, something along the lines of the GTS-R and HRT427, no luxuries and a real hard edge. That should keep everyone happy!

BMW did that with the M3 CSL, it cost 20% more than the standard M3...

The HRT427 was going to cost 200K and the GTR-S is 130K or more i think.

[Red CV8 R]

BMW did that with the M3 CSL, it cost 20% more than the standard M3...

The HRT427 was going to cost 200K and the GTR-S is 130K or more i think.


Yes but I was refering to the same car/ engine/ driveline as the normal say Clubsport R8 but with less weight and more suspension work. Shouldnt be as expensive as the other cars you mentioned this way. Personally I think it should be the Clubsport R8, the normal clubsport model has all the luxuries, slightly softer suspension, smaller brakes etc and then the R8 is alot more hard edged with less luxuries/ weight etc. This wouldnt take much at all as it is sort of this way allready. In the end I think the VE with its new chasis should fix alot of gripes as it really is the letdown of the VT-VY range. Lets hope it doesnt pork up to much.

[VZKOOP]

The driveline, suspension, brakes and tyres in Clubsport and GTS need to focus on on track times, even if 99% of these cars will never come close to a track. This is so your money is being spent on racetrack breeding, not just a HSV badge with no substance.

If you were going to drive your HSV on the track regularly - you'd want to set it up to your driving preferences - you'd spend money on suspension and performance that suited your driving style. The only way that HSV could offer such a package as a street car would be to include fully adjustable suspension and an onboard programmable engine management system. I hate to even contemplate what these would be worth. The best they can offer is a car that has been performance enhanced that will suit road conditions more than track conditions. Roads are unpredictable - they have potholes and dips and variable surfaces that require a car to be able to handle all of these variances as they occur. A race bred race prepped car would be an absolute nightmare to drive on the road. It would be uncomfortable and a pain to drive in traffic. So much so that you wouldn't drive it in traffic and probably wouldn't buy one again. HSV are in the business of selling cars and preferrably large numbers of them. So why would they make a car that 99% of their existing market would refuse to buy?


If your in desperate need of a V8 status symbol but dont want the above, the senator or grange is for you. Unfortunately these people are wrongly asking for a clubsport, and that is why the clubsport has become so soft since the pre-VT days.

I don't understand your reasoning here. The people who buy Senators & Granges do so because they want that car. The people who buy a Clubsport want a Clubsport. I went for a drive in a VZ Clubby a couple of weeks ago and if you think that car is soft, you are either a V8 supercar driver or just plain hard to please. Either way you are still missing the point. The cars sell. Because people want them - as they are. If you want a hard edged track weapon I'm sure you could turn the current Clubsport or for that matter an SV8 into one.

[GTS JaZzA]

Having said that I dont think many HSV buyers care about the handling and dynamics of their cars, just make it the fastest in a straight line.


your kidding right? let me tell you something, we used to have a close enough to 400kw vr commodore. now that was making some pretty damned quick 1/4 mile times, and yet my dad sold it for a hell of a lot slower vy GTS. you knwo what the reason was? not straight line performance as you say, but the handling swept the floor with the VR. So, having said that, are you even a hsv buyer?

[Jag530G]

For those on this forum who want HSV to build a stripper, have you ever thought that HSV may have planned one and found that there is not the market or profit there.

Example: Although a Calais costs 20K more than an Exec, it doesn't cost Holden anywhere near that to fit all the luxo kit in a Calais, consequently there will be little savings to a customer if they build a stripper and maintain the same profit. Sure you might buy a Clubsport Stripper if it cost 15K less than a normal Clubbie but HSV are a small scale manufacturer and need to maintain profit. In reality a stripper might only be 5K cheaper, but when Freddie Bloggs walks into a HSV dealer and sees a Stripper or for 5K more gets a well equipped Clubsport, the dealer won't have any trouble upselling the normal model. The other problem with stripper models is how many people would buy a stripper clubsport over a SS with HBD (VZ Monaro) Brakes for the same price?

And if you are still in love with the idea of an LS1 powered car for the track then buy the beautiful Elfin MS8/Streamliner, why would you want a large sedan for track work anyway?

Cheers,

Matthew

[spellweaver]

Well I think I can answer a few questions here , from my point of view anyway. As a vx clubsport and now vx gts new car buyer what I want at least in a hsv is really the best that our own to offer. That is the quickest straight line ,cornering and stopping that 'we ' can offer. I remember very clearly growing up in the late eighties as a Holden boy cringing at Holdens almost leathal decision to can V8's and they had a huge debt . Holden and indeed HSV have pulled themselves out of it with great ideas and designs that have been fullfiling our desires. Crummydore this bommodore that!! C'mon guys i may be 33 but i have spent sqilloins on my cars from my SLR 5000 , bombed VH , SS hatch , stroked Vn Calais, VX Clubby. I think a few journo's and indeed some of the younger drivers need to look back on our history to see where holden has come from before bagging the crap out of them. Constructive criticism excluded. Sure they could have went straight to the LS2 with probably 350KW but where's the marketing in that? All the FORD fans owe it to holden and HSV as well because if it wasnt for them you would have the choice of driving a 6 cyl or a 6cyl. On the other side good on ford for making the BA as now it has given HSV some competition and with any luck within a few years we can both Holden and Ford give them Euro's some curry. Long live Aussie muscle cars!! :box:

[BlackClubbie]

"Muscle Car", i love that name, before i came to australia, "Muscle Cars" were old american cars to me ... I really consider my clubbie as being a "Muscle Car" ... do you guys know of any other countries apart from Good Oz and the US of A where you can find "Muscle Cars" ?

[BlackClubbie]

One last note, If you tell me that a 206 GTI is a Muscle Car in France, there's no way !!! a bloody 4 cylinders, front wheel drive, however GTIed it is, is no muscle car !

[Red CV8 R]

If you were going to drive your HSV on the track regularly - you'd want to set it up to your driving preferences - you'd spend money on suspension and performance that suited your driving style. The only way that HSV could offer such a package as a street car would be to include fully adjustable suspension and an onboard programmable engine management system. I hate to even contemplate what these would be worth.



HSV have a mega buck adjustable suspension system, Ohlins.

[Red CV8 R]

your kidding right? let me tell you something, we used to have a close enough to 400kw vr commodore. now that was making some pretty damned quick 1/4 mile times, and yet my dad sold it for a hell of a lot slower vy GTS. you knwo what the reason was? not straight line performance as you say, but the handling swept the floor with the VR. So, having said that, are you even a hsv buyer?

If your dad really only wanted better handling then the 400kw beast I suggest a few thousand on suspension would have had the VR handling 10x better then the GTS so I would hope there is more to his purchase then that.

[Cat755]

VZCOOP: As indicated by HSV Senator, HSV do offer the Olhlins Adjustable Suspension as an option when ordering an R8. Costs an additional $5995. Also offer bigger AP Brakes for $3750. These are not available on the standard Clubby.With these options you should be able to set an R8 up for some track work if that was what you wanted to do :D

[spellweaver]

Goes without saying really , have you ever seen a body builder without a 'V' in his back and a 'muscle' on each side? I guess a 4 cly still may be called a muscle car , it's just deformed that's all.

[GTS JaZzA]

If your dad really only wanted better handling then the 400kw beast I suggest a few thousand on suspension would have had the VR handling 10x better then the GTS so I would hope there is more to his purchase then that.


i doubt it could be 10 times better as it already had one of the best aftermarket sets on it availiable at the time. and i was jsut pointing out that its not just about straight line performance, its the whole package. The way you guys are speaking about the HSV is as though the can barely turn a corner without breaking in half, and let me tell you they sure can go quick around a track.

[seldo]

i doubt it could be 10 times better as it already had one of the best aftermarket sets on it availiable at the time. and i was jsut pointing out that its not just about straight line performance, its the whole package. The way you guys are speaking about the HSV is as though the can barely turn a corner without breaking in half, and let me tell you they sure can go quick around a track.
Like I said before, most of the comments come from those who've never even driven one....so they'd be real experts..

[VZKOOP]

VZCOOP: As indicated by HSV Senator, HSV do offer the Olhlins Adjustable Suspension as an option when ordering an R8. Costs an additional $5995. Also offer bigger AP Brakes for $3750. These are not available on the standard Clubby.With these options you should be able to set an R8 up for some track work if that was what you wanted to do :D

There ya go......handling problem solved ;)

[mgygto]

I had a good friend purchase an R8 mid last year. After about a month of owning he dropped around and I asked him how it was going. It said it was great, good power etc etc. I asked him how hard he had driven it. The answer was 110 / 120 kph on the freeway.......I told him a spot not far from where I live that is a light industrial estate with wide sweeping corners, long straight roads etc and I told him to go down there early Saturday evening and really DRIVE the thing (drive it as though you stole it). Before he did this he was more than happy with the R8 , when he came back from doing this it was though he had just lost his virginity! He could not believe just how good the car was when placed under some extreme driving of hard acceleration, hard braking, cornering etc. All of us who own HSV's know that the more you push them the BETTER they perform in these areas, and things such as handling/cornering are vastly improved over any of the standard Holden range including the Monaro and the SS and this becomes even more obvious at speed.

[Phido]

I think HSV have a great range of products.

Clubby? Nothing touches it at its price.. Fast in a line handles okay, sure rough ride and tyre bills but really they would chase a previous gen M5 no worries.

R8 can certainly be a track car if you spec it to be so. As good as a commodore chassis can be. But HSV can't do more than that.

Grange? Theres no direct competitor. Euros are 3 times the price, and have simular performance and space, gizmos. No yank car has that kind of power and size, Ford don't have anything like it either here. Brutal looks, with bling, and performance to match..