Gen IV put on hold

[paulvdb]

Saw this today in the SMH - sounds dumb trying to fix up the Gen III. They must have too many spares.

"There had been speculation that Holden would introduce the so-called Gen IV engine in its mainstream Commodore range this year ahead of the arrival of the all-new VE Commodore next April.

Traditionally, Holden has staggered the arrival of new powertrains and vehicles but it appears in the case of the Gen IV it's handed the troubleshooting job to its HSV division, which swapped to the 6.0-litre 297 kW alloy engine at VZ update time last October.

"I'll tell you straight up right now it's not in the plan," declared Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney last week.

The decision means Holden must now update the Gen III to the more stringent ADR 79/01 emissions standard by January 1, 2006. Equivalent to Euro III, all new models introduced to Australia since January 1 this year have had to comply, while existing models have a 12-month grace period.

The upgrade will be performed to carry some Commodore V8 models through only four months until the all-new VE arrives. However, because some VZs continue (such as Adventra) on for some time beyond April with the Gen III, Holden has elected to spend the money and update the engine.

Ford also faces the prospect of improving the emissions performance of its locally made 4.0-litre in-line six-cylinder engine to meet Euro III."

[Goggles]

well the question is - with the fix up to meet the new emissions regs, will the power of the GENIII go up or down??

[paulvdb]

well the question is - with the fix up to meet the new emissions regs, will the power of the GENIII go up or down??
That's a valid question - if you look at other engines in Europe that have been modified for Euro III and IV, then they've become boring vaccuum cleaners.

[Red CV8 R]

How are Holden going to continue with the Gen 3 when GM are stoping making it very soon?

[XLR8 V8]

I'd say there's a decent stockpile of 5.7L Ls1's for sedans left at the moment, and the US are now moving forward with the LS2 in the GTO, so all the LS1 stock is being fobbed off to Australia and therefore UAE as well.

[JohnS]

If the VE is to be released in April 2006 when will holden need to re-tool their factory and stop making the VZ?

Do cars manufactured in 2005 but sold in 2006 (i.e. VZ V8s) need to comply with the new emission standards?

[the mooch]

If the VE is to be released in April 2006 when will holden need to re-tool their factory and stop making the VZ?

the 'retooling' started 12 months ago with the $400million investment into the manufacturing processes at Elizabeth. Anyone who saw the general assambly plant in 2003 wouldn't recognise the place today. It's easy to see where the money has been spent.

[V82xist]

That sounds like a big load of BS cause the current LS1 meets all the Californian emission laws which are more strict than the Euro III.
What a load of crap. :bash:

[mavss]

The report isn't overly clear whether the GenIV will be introduced with the VE.

I hope they do BUT if Holden have tweaked the GenIII to meet EuroIII standards, there is a chance they may keep it going for a while, especially if HSV / GM unveil problems with the new motor.

[Marco]

Maybe they just won't offer the V8 for the first four months of 2006. When the VN came out in Aug/Sep 1988, the V8 didn't turn up until March 1989...

[Ghia351]

That sounds like a big load of BS cause the current LS1 meets all the Californian emission laws which are more strict than the Euro III.
What a load of crap. :bash:

I'm not sure about that, looking at the following links it seems EuroIII and LEV need to take into account vehicle mass (for US) etc and the different methods of applying the standards... sorry for the lack of formatting, plus you need to remember the US data is in gm/Mile while Euro is in gm/Km to make this more difficult. And after 2007 LEVII kicks in which I think is more stringent then Euro levels.

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/light.html
California Emission Standards for Light-Duty Vehicles, FTP 75, g/mi Category 50,000 miles/5 years 100,000 miles/10 years
NMOGa CO NOx PM HCHO NMOGa CO NOx PM HCHO
Passenger cars
Tier 1 0.25 3.4 0.4 0.08 - 0.31 4.2 0.6 - -
TLEV 0.125 3.4 0.4 - 0.015 0.156 4.2 0.6 0.08 0.018
LEV 0.075 3.4 0.2 - 0.015 0.090 4.2 0.3 0.08 0.018
ULEV 0.040 1.7 0.2 - 0.008 0.055 2.1 0.3 0.04 0.011
LDT1, LVW <3,750 lbs
Tier 1 0.25 3.4 0.4 0.08 - 0.31 4.2 0.6 - -
TLEV 0.125 3.4 0.4 - 0.015 0.156 4.2 0.6 0.08 0.018
LEV 0.075 3.4 0.2 - 0.015 0.090 4.2 0.3 0.08 0.018
ULEV 0.040 1.7 0.2 - 0.008 0.055 2.1 0.3 0.04 0.011
LDT2, LVW >3,750 lbs
Tier 1 0.32 4.4 0.7 0.08 - 0.40 5.5 0.97 - -
TLEV 0.160 4.4 0.7 - 0.018 0.200 5.5 0.9 0.10 0.023
LEV 0.100 4.4 0.4 - 0.018 0.130 5.5 0.5 0.10 0.023
ULEV 0.050 2.2 0.4 - 0.009 0.070 2.8 0.5 0.05 0.013
a - NMHC for all Tier 1 standards

Abbreviations:
LVW - loaded vehicle weight (curb weight + 300 lbs)
LDT - light-duty truck
NMOG - non-methane organic gases
HCHO - formaldehyde

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/ld.html
EU Emission Standards for Passenger Cars (Category M1*), g/km Tier Date CO HC HC+NOx NOx PM

Petrol (Gasoline)
Euro 1† 1992.07 2.72 (3.16) - 0.97 (1.13) - -
Euro 2 1996.01 2.2 - 0.5 - -
Euro 3 2000.01 2.30 0.20 - 0.15 -
Euro 4 2005.01 1.0 0.10 - 0.08 -
* Excluding cars over 2,500 kg, which meet N1 Category standards
† Values in brackets are conformity of production (COP) limits.
a - until 1999.09.30 (after that date DI engines must meet the IDI limits)

[Ghia351]

While for Aust. the following is relevant:

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/au/index.html

[BlackClubbie]

IF Everybody is expecting the VE to get the Gen4, it would be a bad move to do a series 1 with the Gen3, everybody would wait for the series2 or would switch camp and buy a new Falcon, wouldn't be good, would it ?

[VYBerlinaV8]

I think it would be pretty pointless for Holden to come out and say exactly when the LS2 will be released, cos if it's within 18 months - 2 years a lot of people will hang onto their current ride and wait until the new engine gets here. It will be interesting to see what sort of spec (in terms of kW and Nm) the regular tune LS2 will get.

Hope it doesn't devalue our current rides too much (although I'm not holding my breath).

[Phido]

Holden would have had to tune the LS1 anyway (powerlevels etc) the question is can they do it with the existing camshaft profile etc. Most likely yes, but with a diffrent exhaust and mapping..

Ford too should be able to meet Euro III with mapping (actually utilising the VCT) and exhaust modifications. Ford would most likely try to improve economy and power as well.

I don't think either company will have great difficulties with engines emissions just yet.

EUROIV will be tougher, but all of these engines are pretty modern stuff now. Designed with these kind of targets in mind.

[Ghia351]

Holden would have had to tune the LS1 anyway (powerlevels etc) the question is can they do it with the existing camshaft profile etc. Most likely yes, but with a diffrent exhaust and mapping..

Ford too should be able to meet Euro III with mapping (actually utilising the VCT) and exhaust modifications. Ford would most likely try to improve economy and power as well.

I don't think either company will have great difficulties with engines emissions just yet.

EUROIV will be tougher, but all of these engines are pretty modern stuff now. Designed with these kind of targets in mind.
Euro IV won't be required on Australian passenger cars running petrol for a while, however ALL diesels no matter what vehicle type will need to meet it in 2006/7.

[mavss]

You could argue that with the VE being a completely new car, Holden may be playing it safe & holding onto the Gen III which is more of a known entity than the Gen IV.

Remember when the all new VT came out? Series I was the 5.0 while series II was the 5.7.

Maybe we'll see something similar with the VE as was suggested by a previous poster.

[VZKOOP]

I think it would be pretty pointless for Holden to come out and say exactly when the LS2 will be released, cos if it's within 18 months - 2 years a lot of people will hang onto their current ride and wait until the new engine gets here. It will be interesting to see what sort of spec (in terms of kW and Nm) the regular tune LS2 will get.

Hope it doesn't devalue our current rides too much (although I'm not holding my breath).

It may be a blessing in disguise. The longer the Gen III motor lives on for the higher the resale values for existing Gen III's. What would be good for all consumers and for resale would be a optional engine package when the VE finally does get the LS2. Those of us old enough to remember the 253 and 308 Kingswood/Premier/Monaro series and original Commodore range will also remember that resale was not such a big issue then. Granted there were other factors such as longer model lives but these days it seems that models are upgraded and superseded at the drop of a hat making nearly new cars significantly cheaper than their new counterparts. The only plus is for buyers in the second hand market who can pick up a "just run in" car for half the price of the new model. Maybe I should just change my buying habits.......

[CSV Strada SiR]

IF Everybody is expecting the VE to get the Gen4, it would be a bad move to do a series 1 with the Gen3, everybody would wait for the series2 or would switch camp and buy a new Falcon, wouldn't be good, would it ?

Remember the VT series1 and LS1 into series2 only thing affected was resale value and old stock as far as I remember

[BLUE-SS]

Actually I can see Holden doing this again, Clearing out the good Gen 3 into an EVEN BIgger car or SLUG and then making a series 2 6.0.

My VT 5.0 is a slug. Motor is too small for it.

What about all the people with ORDERS down on the 6.0 VZ?

Jem.

[motomk]

Brock3...this thread is nearly a year old and the question has recently been answered as to what Holden is doing in 2006 with its engines on the VZ.
I will close this one and redirect you elsewhere to a topic that has overtaken this one.
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=48453

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=48797

motomk