AWD traction VS RWD Power?

[HSVREDSLED]

Picture this scenario....

A HSV AWD coupe 4 with 450 kw (flywheel) sitting on the dragstrip.
versus
A SS sedan with 450kw (flywheel) on the other side. (Identical motors)

but importantly...both on street tyres, same conditions same driver ability.

The Coupe 4 would have the traction advantage but power loss due AWD.

The SS would suffer from traction, but have power advantage.

The Motor mags say that at equal kw (about 245) the SS is substantially quicker. But at High kw, Im sure the AWD would be quicker due to traction issues with street tyres.

My questions are,

1. Who would win the above scenario
2 If you agree the AWD would and you agree that at standard trim the ss would, at what Kw would both vehicles be equal (guestimate)?

[Blown 454 AWD]

I'm happy to supply the 450 kW AWD if you have a 450 kW RWD, I'm around the city in Sydney, Botany is work. :D

I had a VXSS (from new) before and sold it to go AWD as I had had enough of 6 - 10,000k's out of rear tyres. :burnout:

Now 14,500 k's on the clock, 11,000 on the mods, tyres are about 1/4 worn, even after a go on the dry skid pan at Oran Park. (at nearly 2 1/2 ton) :bash:

If a RWD can take off like this thing (just melted it's 2nd 4L60E, 3000k's 1st one, 7000k's 2nd one, now building a 4L80E on the side) I just may go back to RWD as I loose around 40 -43% power with AWD, but shit, does it launch! :confused:

Picking it up from Craig's tomorrow with a (real) 2800 stall and a very special extra wide 2nd gear band.

Edit comes next!

Should be interesting anyway. :cheers:

[RICHO]

There's a quick test for you available already.

The CL65 AMG from Performance Car of the Year. From memory that was 450kw (twin Turbo V12) would weigh more than the Adventra mentioned but pulled some damn impressive numbers.

From memory, about 4.6 (0-100), and 12(ish) across the quarter. It's 1000m time was pretty insane too.

All we need is for Mercedes Australia to come to the party and make it available for this test.

[NinetySix]

not sure about the adventura but doesnt the coupe4 use a 4wd system similar to GTR skylines where its running full RWD all the time until wheelspin is detected and some torque is sent to the front bags? so on launch it would take off like a rocket but once its gripped all the power goes to the rear, thus no extra power loss whatsoever?


traction and drivetrain losses aside, the coupe4 adds about 130kg over say a clubby, and the adventura even more AFAIK so thats gonna be the biggest factor.

[NinetySix]

The CL65 AMG from Performance Car of the Year. From memory that was 450kw (twin Turbo V12) would weigh more than the Adventra mentioned but pulled some damn impressive numbers.

im pretty sure the CL65 amg is closer in weight to a BA XR8 than to a adventura

[RICHO]

Couldn't find weights for the CL65 but it's "little" brother the CL55 AMG weighs in at 1995kg. I'd assume that he V12 and extra plumbing and features in the 65 would see that weight slip up to somewhre near the 2100kg mark.

It's a big heavy mother!!

[rocks-crewman]

If so the AWD beasty. So many variables in this equation. Do you also factor in vehicle weight? I reckon the RWD would win on the drag strip. The AWD would probably make a slower start initially but the traction overall would be in its favour (giving the driver more confidence of not putting it in the wall or making an ass of him/herself).

On any other surface or circuit, the AWD would probably kick butt (unless a V8 supercar driver is behind the wheel of the RWD vehicle), simply due to the power and traction. We've seen in Nations Cup how an AWD 2 litre turbo can mix it with a GTS type vehicle due to balance/traction and good power (on a dry track). However the mighty 7 litre Monaro soon put a stop to that nonsense.....

[MountainRunner]

Yea on launch the GTR lights the rears for split sec, then power hits the fronts up to 50% and you launch, then the power back off from the fronts as speed builds. There is usually some power to the front under full noise but its about 10%. Nothing launches like it on the street.

[NinetySix]

actually cars with full time AWD can hook up a little better :D no delays

[dominik]

Couldn't find weights for the CL65 but it's "little" brother the CL55 AMG weighs in at 1995kg. I'd assume that he V12 and extra plumbing and features in the 65 would see that weight slip up to somewhre near the 2100kg mark.

It's a big heavy mother!!Richo, it sure is. According to the latest Motor the CL65 is 2130kg. In the PCOTY tests their best run was 4.64 0-100 and 12.59 over the 1/4 mile, and they needed traction control on to do it.

Edit: and then I scrolled up and read you'd posted the same thing :)

[CorporateJet]

I'm happy to supply the 450 kW AWD if you have a 450 kW RWD, I'm around the city in Sydney, Botany is work. :D

Even though I only have around 430kw @ flywheel. I'm willing to see what would happen. I'm in the city too. ;)

From memory, doesn't an AWD car's drivetrain sap up to 25% of the flywheel power as opposed to ~18% of an RWD drivetrain?

If these worse case scenario figures are close to being accurate then...

1. The AWD car would have 337.5awkw, and weigh 2100kgs?
Power to weight ratio (based on flywheel kws) = 4.66:1

2. The RWD car would have 369rwkw, and weigh 1700kgs.
Power to weight ration (based on flywheel kws) = 3.77:1

Apart from the initial gain cause of the awd traction, I'd say the rwd would reel it in and the rwd would emerge victorious.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[HSVREDSLED]

Hmmmm....

I orginally suggested this thread to get peoples opinions......looks like we may have a race on our hands!

[large]

My opinion is if both were on the same street tyres, the Adventra would have a huge advantage on the launch by plenty but the RWD would be hunting it down very quickly near the end of the 1/4.
Adventra by a short half guard! :)

[CarlFST60L]

My two cents,

On pretty stock cars, just edited, diff, exhaust:
With standard stall converter it would neck n neck off the mark, RWD wining by a 10th or 2...
With both fitted with 3500rpm stallies, the AWD would maybe have half a car off the mark then, come out a car or two behind the RWD, RWD still wining by a 10th or two...
The AWD looses to much power in the drive train and weighs to much more...

On a cars with a true 450kw on street tyres, the AWD would kill a RWD any time any where on street rubber, the rubbers the biggest limiter with that kind on power... thats if it survives coz, either way, IMO, the RWD will out last the AWD 10 to 1...

i suprise the WRX guys off the lights when i pull half a car to the other side of the lights in my 107mph M6 :cool:

Just my two cents, would love to see em up against each other...

[Blown 454 AWD]

The kit on my car is a Starr Performance, on a RWD LS1 it makes 400 kW at the flywheel.
This is a Whipple @ 10 psi, water cooled intercooler and water/alcohol injection (which make a very noticeable difference) K & N with Starr cold induction (which still gets very hot below 60 k’s)
On top of this I added @ Starr, a very tidy head job and cam, Starr tune is still in place. They believe between 450 and 480 flywheel kW with the extra mods.

On the ShootOut Dyno @ Chipmaster when Starr tuned it, it pulled slightly under 300 AWkW.

I put it on big time 4WD dude’s Graeme Cooper’s ShootOut Dyno here in Sydney, unfortunately the day I had it booked in was the day we reached 50C in temperature out on the road in Sydney, and the cars external temp gauge was reading 60C in the Dyno room. (who knows what the under bonnet temp got up to, you couldn’t touch the bonnet)

That day it only pulled 242 AWkW with 760 Nm of torque, which I was pissed with! The Dyno dude said, Hey – Hey what’s your problem, for an AWD that’s big shit, that’s about 425 flywheel kW. He assured me with his years of experience with AWD’s that the loss starts @ 40% and can get a great as 47% on the truck size stuff. He has had many TT GTR’s on his Dyno and has never seen over 300 AWkW.

So, you loose a lot more than 25% with AWD. I would make an educated guess at if the temp (which it’s definitely a slave to) were below 18C, I’m about 300 AwkW and about 465 Flywheel with around 870Nm.
Now we can then add the weight of a larger exhaust system, blower, water filled intercooler, 20 inch wheels and tyres, 381mm 6 pot Harrops in the front, 355mm 4 pots in the rear, big tow kit, window tint (just joking) so all up quite a lot of extra weight over standard.
If you have been for a ride in Starry’s, then imagine at least 25% more hit.

The biggest wow is coasting at about 20 k and hitting it hard and it hooks first gear, the acceleration impact (with no wheel spin) actually winded my wife in the passengers seat. (impressed me, but not her at the time)

You cannot hit this thing hard with the track on, you must pull the fuse as it engages the track right through 1st and 2nd gear.

The rear dumps a good 5 inches and the front comes up about 6 inches (looks a treat) on a good surface, NO WHEEL SPIN, hit a soft spot or turn a bit and keep it nailed, and you can get that much smoke of the front wheels it twirls up the sides of the bonnet, all in all loads of fun and looks great.

On the freeway I have nailed quite a few boosted V12 mercs, just the other day I had James Brock with me (Mainlube is one of there sponsors) on a nice straight baron road in Sydney and had a tangle with what James said was a near new P GT3, I was behind him, off the mark, and although there was no way I could pass him, he could not put more than I car length between us for about 15 seconds, (you figure it out) this is where I said enough and put the Harrops to good use leaving the GT3 with a funny taste of Holden badge on his mind. James and I had a chuckle.

So like everybody says, it would be interesting, but on a at least cool day please.

[MNR-0]

Two wheels are always faster than 4. The fastest sports cars in the world are rear wheel drive. Technically with equal engine output the 4 wheel drive car will lose out to additonal power sapping reciprocating masses in the driveline.

[NinetySix]

can anybody confirm if the coupe4's AWD system is permanant 4 wheel drive or if it only kicks in with wheel spin?

if so, the only difference would be the extra 130kg ... so try the drag with a couple passangers (or one fat one) and i think the results could be quite easily in the awd's favour.

[Blown 454 AWD]

Holden's AWD system has 62% torque to rear, 38% to front, through a planetary gear system, this is why they launch so well with bugger all wheel spin. The track system was nicked from the hummer and modified for Adventra, this is why when you pull the track fuse you loose ABS, it applies the brakes to individual wheels when the ABS detect wheel spin.

It gets right out of sink if you double the kWs, great in the wet or off road. We had the opportunity to use the transfer from the Suburban when up grading to the 4L80E however, it's 50/50, too much front wheel spin, :burnout: we are modifying the Adventra planetary to fit.

I thought I saw somewhere that it's the same arse end that the BMW X5 uses, not sure on that part.

[JohnW]

So with the Adventura, when you pull the traction control fuse, don’t you end up with effectively open diffs and maybe the scenario that the front wheels spin rather then driving off the rear?

[CorporateJet]

On the ShootOut Dyno @ Chipmaster when Starr tuned it, it pulled slightly under 300 AWkW.

This is one things that still can't understand. Isn't Shootout mode for DD dynos supposed to produce the same output regardless of their location? I understand that the extreme temperatures play a part in outputs but all things being equal the outputs should be almost identical.


So like everybody says, it would be interesting, but on a at least cool day please.

How about this Sunday WSID? I'd suffer the same as you would. :) ;)

[VX2VESS]

Two wheels are always faster than 4. The fastest sports cars in the world are rear wheel drive. Technically with equal engine output the 4 wheel drive car will lose out to additonal power sapping reciprocating masses in the driveline.
in the dry probably, not in the wet

[Merlin]

Two wheels are always faster than 4. The fastest sports cars in the world are rear wheel drive. Technically with equal engine output the 4 wheel drive car will lose out to additonal power sapping reciprocating masses in the driveline.

I'd have to disagree there - dont get me wrong I love RWD and would never buy another AWD (I found it rather boring to drive). Dial up 9000rpm, drop the clutch and the perfect space shuttle launch was always there for the taking - but wheres the skill in that?

But what do you mean by faster? Drags, open road or track?

One of the fastest sprots cars built is the Skyline GTR - theres not much out there that can spank it in a drag or on a track. (Not that Im a rice boy skyline loving tool)

[RICHO]

Ferarri, Porsche, McLaren..... all RWD Lamborghini (did I spell that right) has AWD but the even the fastest versions of these lose the AWD and revert to RWD.

The fastest Porsche in recent years (before the carerra GT) was the GT2 a Porsche 911 Turbo without AWD.

On a dry racetrack surely the only real point of advantage for an AWD would be at the start?? The higher possible cornering speeds on the track would largely overcome any advantage out of corners and down a straight the RWD would tend to reel in AWD's due to higher top speeds and less weight.

Even in the Japanese GT Championship the skylines lose more often than the win to a variety of NSX's, Supras, RX7's etc. All seems to come down to the track, short twisty track without long straights, the AWD's do well, but throw more sweeping corners and a long straight or two into the mix and they get creamed.

[CarlFST60L]

At the end of the day, dirt is a 4WD's home, thats where the always win...

There is only one way to settle this, at WSID, i'll bring my camera :D

[VX11SS]

At the end of the day who really wants to drive a 450kw rwd (using the current Holden chassis, VE hopefully will be a different story), if you live anywhere where it rains or there are frequent road works etc you cant get power down.
ANYONE comparing a Holden rwd to Lambos, Porsche etc is off their tree, think 285 rear tyres minimum (more like 345), think a car that was actually built with a bit of chassis balance in the first place and the suspension designed to cope with this type of grunt.

Bare in mind the old commie is just a family sedan in the end, if I had 450 kws I would want 4wd as you would be more likely to be able to use some of the potential coz you couldnt with a 450kw rear wheel drive commie on real roads!!
Cheers jay

[STATIE]

At the end of the day who really wants to drive a 450kw rwd using the current Holden chassis

Me :D

And probably lots of other people on here.


Havn't seen or heard of any of the blown 4587454rwkw :rolleyes: 4WD holdens doing an 11 let alone a 10 (any even in the 12's?)

[RICHO]

Me :D

And probably lots of other people on here.


Havn't seen or heard of any of the blown 4587454rwkw :rolleyes: 4WD holdens doing an 11 let alone a 10 (any even in the 12's?)

I'm pretty sure that one of the 4587456rwkw has made it into the 11's though :D

[CarlFST60L]

At the end of the day who really wants to drive a 450kw rwd

ME ME ME ME :D

The APS twin turbo put out 410kwrw on a bog standard SS, i can tell you now, its some serious sh!t, regardless what you think or say, RE55's (or better) and 410Kwrw isnt somthing to put down without having driven or atleast been in... And for the price of a Lambo, you could get a new one every year for 10 years and still be infont :lol:

[RICHO]

And you avoid the $25,000 :eek: :eek: replacement cost of the Lambo's front bumper if you happen to crunch it on a gutter.

[Phido]

Holden and Ford AWD in the Commodore and Territory are brake based, in that to stop wheelspin in the 4wd system and transfer torque they don't use LSD's or electronic clutches, they use the brakes.. Fine with <280kw yeh, no worries, on road or if your driving not too fast off road.

Problems with high power ? You bet, fry your brakes, brake your driveline, etc.. It was never really designed for this kind of "performance AWD".

Merc can have over 450kw in its cars, but through other electronic trickery, it can make it safe and easy to drive..

So can we, with ESP, CBC, EBA, etc we can tame the power when we should and with a flick of a switch unleash it in roaring smoke. Electronics basically add no added weight, complexity or cost per unit. Nor maintence costs or servicing. Plus you can switch it off very easily.

While VT-VZ really max out at about ~300kw after which it starts to struggle putting the power down, I imagine the VE would be able to handle atleast 50-100kw more before it starts to really struggle (better tyres, better suspension design, better tuning, better strength, possibly heavier) combine it with ESP and you could make it pretty fool proof.

IMHO I don't see any point for AWD in hipo sedans/coupes in Australia from Holden and Ford. RWD suits this market to a T.

Although I could see a Fairmont Ghia or Calais with optional AWD fitting into the market and for overseas exports (eu or US).

[Hqcoupe350]

What are we basing performance on? How about the Coupe4? Its the heaviest hsv (ignore the adventra/crewman based vehicles) with the least amount of power (270kw) and its crippled by an auto box, yet its the fastest stock HSV ever round lang lang! Start modifying the car and the time gap between the RWD varients (with the same mods) will widen even further.

[RICHO]

That's fastest around the entire lang land test course not just the tarmac sections. It included gravel etc etc. On tarmac it'[s heavier and slower than the RWD V8 Holdens and HSV's.

So on gravel, yes the Coupe4 would be faster than RWD's but on Tarmac different story. Just too heavy

[NinetySix]

Even in the Japanese GT Championship the skylines lose more often than the win to a variety of NSX's, Supras, RX7's etc. All seems to come down to the track, short twisty track without long straights, the AWD's do well, but throw more sweeping corners and a long straight or two into the mix and they get creamed.

sorry to nitpick, but all JGTC cars are rear wheel drive only (be it FR or MR)... so the skylines in that are really based on GT 'lines rather than GTR's afaik :p

[Tron2004]

i suprise the WRX guys off the lights when i pull half a car to the other side of the lights in my 107mph M6 :cool:
Then wot happens??

[Tron2004]

One of the fastest sprots cars built is the Skyline GTR - theres not much out there that can spank it in a drag or on a track. (Not that Im a rice boy skyline loving tool)
Except maybe... a twin turbo'd, edited 5.7 litre SS / SV8 ???

[Merlin]

Except maybe... a twin turbo'd, edited 5.7 litre SS / SV8 ???

as in factory production cars not modified cars

[Blown 454 AWD]

I just picked the Adventra up from Craig’s Auto this morning, with a real 2800 rpm Dominator Stall in it. (The last wasn’t real) The odds have now changed dramatically. His first words were. “It’s bloody near lifting the front wheels off the ground”

In a drag between 450 kW AWD and 450 kW RWD on any surface, on street tyres, the AWD would kick the arse off the RWD. (that should get the tread going)

After the road test even Craig believes it would take good slicks on a good surface to compete with the way this thing launches on street tyres.

If you compared the above scenario with 225 kW, the RWD would probably have the same advantage in launch as the AWD with 450 kW as the AWD would soak up too much power @ 225.

I believe they would break even around the 270 to 300 kW.

As the kW’s climb, traction becomes the issue, the AWD has traction.

I will try and make the wet skid pan EC Friday night for a play and Craig is saying I turn up at EC Wednesday night to do a few runs and see just how well the AWD launches, we’ll do our best to comply. :driving:

[VX11SS]

"Me

And probably lots of other people on here.


Havn't seen or heard of any of the blown 4587454rwkw 4WD holdens doing an 11 let alone a 10 (any even in the 12's?)'
"ME ME ME ME

The APS twin turbo put out 410kwrw on a bog standard SS, i can tell you now, its some serious sh!t, regardless what you think or say, RE55's (or better) and 410Kwrw isnt somthing to put down without having driven or atleast been in... And for the price of a Lambo, you could get a new one every year for 10 years and still be infont"

Hi Fellas
You did not read my post, I was not replying re cars set up just for drag racing, my point was try using that grunt on a real piece of road with the slightest wet surface or tiny bit of gravel from road works, potholes and corners etc (in other words how most roads bar 4 lane express ways) and your lightly to be in the scenery. How many time have I seen guys on here mentioning thier cars are barely drivable when the roads arent perfact.
I take it both of you are only interested in cars that do quick quarter miles for friday night at the drags, well fair enough but personally I prefer my car to be able go round corners and be able to handle average roads everyday not 1/4 mile straight tracks once a week.
Cheers Jay

[RICHO]

Driveability of the road should definitely be a consideration.

Mate has built a Robnell Cobra (even got to participate in the drivers parade at the Grand Prix a few years ago), his car runs an alloy 460ci V8 that in it's current state of tune puts out about 630Hp. On the road the things is insane....barely driveable perhaps?? No, in the dry it's incredible, but a bit of gravel or a wet road and it'll take you 5minutes to get across on intersection with absolutely uncotrollable wheelspin.

GOD DAMN it's fun though!!!

[CarlFST60L]

Goto Wakefeild, goto WSID, break the records to prove your the king of street tyres...

The facts are, on STREET LEGAL tyres a RWD can run high 11's (11.8 i think is the record), around wakefeild, 1.08 (Not sure 'exactly') on STREET LEGAL tyres... go knock off the records and prove your point.

:cheers:

[CarlFST60L]

I was not replying re cars set up just for drag racing

A bog standard SS with a TT running 410kwrw is not nearly a 'Drag car'.

[Avalanche]

I agree with vx11ss. If you want a car that u can push in all conditions and road types awd is the way to go. Pushing the 2 ton avalanche up macquarie pass with my brother in the passenger seat all i heard was gee i would have to back off here , iwould be hanging the arse out there, i cant believe you can accelerate out of that corner so early. Mind you he does drive a series 2 xr8 6speed. But while all you rwd guys out there are backing off and fighting understeer with a bit of oversteer my theory is if in doubt power it out with no hassle and smooth as u like. I am still getting used to accelerating when u sholud normally be braking. Still have to work on that. I am looking at getting an edit done & will be interested in seeing if i can get the time to get to wsid. I like every one else would like to see what similar powered cars would do.

[VX11SS]

A bog standard SS with a TT running 410kwrw is not nearly a 'Drag car'.
I hope to F*** that there arent too many bog standard SS with 410rwkws. I bloody hope to god anyone with that grunt has at least put bigger brakes and better dampers on. You still seem to be missing my point or are you just playing at being ignorant?

[STATIE]

The facts are, on STREET LEGAL tyres a RWD can run high 11's (11.8 i think is the record), around wakefeild, 1.08 (Not sure 'exactly') on STREET LEGAL tyres


Jeez - even I've done an 11.8 on "street" tyres (17inch RA1's) and I've seen a low\low 11 by a well known stroker that has now run 10's.

And I havn't got 4-500RWKW - yet

My car still stops and corners by the way :p

[CarlFST60L]

You still seem to be missing my point or are you just playing at being ignorant?

Obviously, im missing your point ;)

[jeff3205]

450kW Adventra, I'm just dying to know:
1. what 1/4 mile time does your beast do; and
2. can it do a 4-wheel burnout???

:D :D :D

[Blown 454 AWD]

The ¼ mile? I have no idea, the latest Nissan 350z pulled up beside me on the weekend, I had 4 big blokes in the Adventra, all up we believed to be around 2740 kg. In a straight launch the Adventra spins the front for about 1 metre and the self levelling system pumps the rear up and shifts the weight to the front, hence traction. The Nissan managed to make tyre noises in the first 3 gears, so he was trying, at 160 k we were around 6 car lengths in front, he was noticeably pissed off.

I was going to WSID this Wednesday night to finally get a time down however, now I’m on my way out to Craig’s as the bitch just stuffed another Auto in 200 k’s, who said 4L60e’s can hack it? Not with AWD they can’t. :bash:

As for 4 wheel burn out, I’ve filled all 4 guards with smoke for about a power pole however, never had a big enough flat surface to try a burnout……so far!! :burnout:

[GETUTED]

The ¼ mile? I have no idea, the latest Nissan 350z pulled up beside me on the weekend, I had 4 big blokes in the Adventra, all up we believed to be around 2740 kg. In a straight launch the Adventra spins the front for about 1 metre and the self levelling system pumps the rear up and shifts the weight to the front, hence traction. The Nissan managed to make tyre noises in the first 3 gears, so he was trying, at 160 k we were around 6 car lengths in front, he was noticeably pissed off.

I was going to WSID this Wednesday night to finally get a time down however, now I’m on my way out to Craig’s as the bitch just stuffed another Auto in 200 k’s, who said 4L60e’s can hack it? Not with AWD they can’t. :bash:

As for 4 wheel burn out, I’ve filled all 4 guards with smoke for about a power pole however, never had a big enough flat surface to try a burnout……so far!! :burnout:

How many auto's is that??? 4? Man you must hammer that poor car!!
The AWD side of things seems to take the punishment which is good to see.

[Blown 454 AWD]

How many auto's is that??? 4? Man you must hammer that poor car!!
The AWD side of things seems to take the punishment which is good to see.


I'd agree with that, would I swap it with anything else?

No, this bitch is too much fun, I'd like to let everyone feel that "747 take off feeling" :D

[m@w8]

Picture this scenario....

A HSV AWD coupe 4 with 450 kw (flywheel) sitting on the dragstrip.
versus
A SS sedan with 450kw (flywheel) on the other side. (Identical motors)

but importantly...both on street tyres, same conditions same driver ability.

The Coupe 4 would have the traction advantage but power loss due AWD.

The SS would suffer from traction, but have power advantage.

The Motor mags say that at equal kw (about 245) the SS is substantially quicker. But at High kw, Im sure the AWD would be quicker due to traction issues with street tyres.

My questions are,

1. Who would win the above scenario
2 If you agree the AWD would and you agree that at standard trim the ss would, at what Kw would both vehicles be equal (guestimate)?

At the drag strip where traction is not as much of an issue, then the RWD may be quicker. But on the street (in the real world) AWD would kick the RWD butt.

Interesting to read all the comments, but how many people have driven an AWD performance car? If you haven't give it a go. You will be pleasantly surprised, especially when its raining. ;)

[Jammer]

Having owned both, I can comment... i think.

The AWD car will have an advantage in all situations *IF* it has a good driver behind the wheel. IMHO AWD cars are harder to launch than a RWD.

Also, I'm not very familiar with the drivetrain setup on the HSV but drivetrain loss through an AWD car is not *that* much more than a RWD car. In a large car like the commodore, I'd hazard a guess of around 30KW loss extra between RWD and AWD. And if we factor this into the original equation, your only 30kw behind the RWD car but have a huge traction advantage.

[mooks]

Having owned both, I can comment... i think.

The AWD car will have an advantage in all situations *IF* it has a good driver behind the wheel. IMHO AWD cars are harder to launch than a RWD.

Also, I'm not very familiar with the drivetrain setup on the HSV but drivetrain loss through an AWD car is not *that* much more than a RWD car. In a large car like the commodore, I'd hazard a guess of around 30KW loss extra between RWD and AWD. And if we factor this into the original equation, your only 30kw behind the RWD car but have a huge traction advantage.

Get out of here Zolt!! :booty:

stick to your own forum :lol:

[m@w8]

Just to clarify a bit... are we talking general street driving (that's how I took it) or around a track or maybe just down the strip for 400m?

[CarlFST60L]

Prove the point by tacking to to the track circuit and 400m... i think you will find the 4WD will not nearly match the RWD!

[CorporateJet]

Enough taking. Lets race!!! :D

450 kW Adventra, Its a bummer about all your boxes!! Maybe its time to make it RWD. ;) In all seriousness, its a really tough fight to get an AWD gearbox / driveline to handle massive torque loads. Just check out how many "indestructible gearboxes" WRXs/EVOs even GTR's, have, well....destructed.

My previous car was a WRX with 178awkw (minute compared to what you've got), had not problems with clutches or gearboxes. I did launch it hard and regular, but the max launch rpm was 3000-3500rpm. I know of many mates who munched boxes on std wrxs and moded and just wondered how?

From what rpm do you launch it?? I'm not having a go at you. I think, damn you must give it an absolute caning or just been really unlucky.

Anyway, good luck. :) I hope you find the right combination real soon. Can't be cheap rebuilding boxes that often.

[m@w8]

Prove the point by tacking to to the track circuit and 400m... i think you will find the 4WD will not nearly match the RWD!

I'd agree that at the track or strip AWD doesn't give much of an advantage. The weight and power penalty may not make up for the advantage it gives.
But out on the road especially in the rain (which in Melbourne is frequent) AWD has it in spades.

Also I'd imagine that the more power you have, the more traction becomes an issue. True? So an AWD car that runs 11's at the strip will also run 11's on the street (though obviously only in outback NT where it's legal ;) ) While an 11 second RWD car would not.

[STATIE]

I'd agree that at the track or strip AWD doesn't give much of an advantage.
But out on the road especially in the rain (which in Melbourne is frequent) AWD has it in spades.

So theyre only faster only in the rain - I'll give you that. Maybe :p

So an AWD car that runs 11's at the strip will also run 11's on the street

[]Are there any that do?While an 11 second RWD car would not.


Mine would and does :D

Maybe not in the rain though :lol:

[jeff3205]

We can probably answer the original question with 1/4 mile data from a Coupe4 with PD blower ... could then compare ET with those of A4 rwd Monaros of various power levels ... I think I heard about someone charging a Coupe4 ... anyone know about it?

[BIGDAO]

Two wheels are always faster than 4. The fastest sports cars in the world are rear wheel drive. Technically with equal engine output the 4 wheel drive car will lose out to additonal power sapping reciprocating masses in the driveline.

Theoretically, yes. BUT: The F1 head-honcho's didn't ban four-wheel-drive for no reason. May possibly lose a bit of accelleration, but the cornering speeds increase exponentially. What good is going fast if you can't get around the next bend?