Adr....Adr.....Adr (2) [Archive] - Australian LS1 and Holden Forums

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choppo

24-04-2005, 11:16 PM

MACJXL

25-04-2005, 06:55 AM

Can someone please back up their product? So far we had a big debate over twin turbos/single turbos (look back in the archives 6 mths ago). Then came the big question... ADR compliance! Heaps of promises and dates of testing. Look back in the archives people. Look at the promises.
My questions is (the moderators made me ask 1 question) - does anyone have adr compliance on any of these kits?

I've paid for my adr compliance & engineers certificate with a well known Melbourne blower installer, & to date received neither.
We went conservative on the cam (~GTS) & they removed my Difillipo headers so that the cats would be closer to the engine for quicker heat-up.
In spite of this, it failed its emission test. :-(

That was just prior to Christmas. The deal was; they gave me my car back for me to use in the meantime, they'd configure one of their company cars to the same spec as mine, give that spec a name, get it complied & my car would come under a blanket compliance for that configuration. They said they'd call for my car for the engineer to climb over before signing his life away early February. Still waiting...

I assume the primary issue is one of tuning competence. There are lots of very good tuners that are experienced in maximum power tunes, but can anyone recommend one that specialises in ADR (emissions) compiance? I'd be tempted to take my car to them for compliance & back-charge the original installer...

Not all petrol-heads are happy being outlaws. Is anyone out there full bottle on where I stand legally with my original installer?
How about LPG with a PDB for emissions compliance sake? I assume there would be power gains to be had with LPG because of its higher octane?

seedyrom

25-04-2005, 08:03 AM

Doesn't an edit also change a cars adr emissions level and therefore make a car unroadworthy?

VX SS

25-04-2005, 08:06 AM

I reckon you might be pushing to get emmissions compliance with a cam also installed.

ADR compliant and street legal are different things, HPF have managed to tune a car with twin turbos to pass the ADR emmission tests the engineer has signed off on the rest off the car.

Personally It a big ask to add 50% more power and offer a fully compliant ADR package drive in drive out.

Legally is it in writing that he would give ADR compliance if he did you might have a case.

Technically all performance shops are at risk as the perform illegal modifications to cars which breach the standard. It will only take some smart person to make a cross claim to bring the industry to its knees. They wont be able to hide behind For Off Road Use Only they have a duty of care.

Animal

27-04-2005, 09:13 PM

MattJ

27-04-2005, 09:49 PM

So it becomes the tuners fault that you drove your car to their workshop, knowing that they were going to modify it, and allowed them to retune your car so you could get a woody and claim you have all these new rwkw.

Did common sense just leave this thread ?

Next it will be the gods fault that some low life's were born and became rapists.

The unfortunate reality is that people that think like you Animal are in the vast minority in this world and even though they know they are paying tuners to modifiy the fark out of there cars there still more than willing to point the blame stick at someone else if it will save em a buck.

The Question of Compliabilty is a new one in the aftermarket, without doubt we must go there, and soon, but people must remember that this has never been a concern to most punters or Performance workshops up into a few years ago. We as Tuners need to embrace it as our future, not hide from it, Im not sure whose responsability it it is to make sure the car still comply's to current standards however it will be upto the customer to pay for the testing and that is his decision. It is upto the product maker to ensure the product he makes and sells is still ADR compliable though.

There is no way id be putting any sort of performance camshaft in a car going for ADR compliance, I heard even HSV had a hell of a time getting the C4B passed.

team illucid

27-04-2005, 09:54 PM

It is similar to some muffler shops that will install a nice stainless steel pipe up through the CATS - you are told it is illegal, yet a few more ponies are to be had and a nicer exhaust note so you do it and say bugger it ...

If anything is changed becuase you ask for it then it is YOUR responsibility

Martin_D

27-04-2005, 10:14 PM

Im not sure whose responsability it it is to make sure the car still comply's to current standards however it will be upto the customer to pay for the testing and that is his decision.

Actually Matt, check with your company lawyer, it is YOUR legal responsibility if YOUR company fitted the cam. Thats the LAW. Check it, and report back. Looks like you have a heap of legal liabilites out there.........

MattJ

27-04-2005, 10:24 PM

Actually Matt, check with your company lawyer, it is YOUR legal responsibility if YOUR company fitted the cam. Thats the LAW. Check it, and report back. Looks like you have a heap of legal liabilites out there.........

thats most interesting, anything from opening up an air box to a tune, to a Supercharger could effect emissions of some sort... it look like we all have alot of legal liabilites out there.

Martin_D

27-04-2005, 10:32 PM

Sure do.......

Mongy

28-04-2005, 06:50 AM

I really hate to have to agree with Martin, but he is correct.

MACJXL

28-04-2005, 07:23 AM

[QUOTE=VX SS]<SNIP>

Legally is it in writing that he would give ADR compliance if he did you might have a case.

<SNIP>QUOTE]

I wouldn't have paid my initial deposit if the compliance & engineers certificate hadn't been on the quote in the first place.
I'm sure that in the eyes of the law, an email is as good as "in writing"

I'll give the shop the benefit of the doubt that they have the capability of gaining the approriate compliance before seeking legal advice.
How long I am prepared to wait will remain to be seen... :mad:

You all can be assured though, I won't be letting this die. I went into this in good faith & feel I've been let down. Don't get me wrong - the product is great :D - but I don't like being an outlaw.

When discussing the proposed build with the workshop, I enquired as to how many installations of this kind they'd done already, & I was told "about thirty"
I assumed they meant thirty compliant (read legal) installations - not thirty non-compliant.

Thanks for all the PMs.
I'll keep you all posted.

Animal

28-04-2005, 09:42 AM

Actually Matt, check with your company lawyer, it is YOUR legal responsibility if YOUR company fitted the cam. Thats the LAW. Check it, and report back. Looks like you have a heap of legal liabilites out there.........

I can feel the cost of modifying my car is about to go through the roof.

If this is true, then our beloved tuners need to start having customers sign disclaimers or fork out the cost for the ADR box to get a tick.

Why are aftermarket cams / turbos / superchargers allowed to be sold if it is obvious that they will effect the cars emmisions causing a breach. Realistically unless it is sold in a kit form with the ADR approval, then the aftermarket parts should not be sold :eek:

Is Martins kit the only one certified ?

Martin_D

28-04-2005, 09:49 AM

I do believe CAPA had ADR compliance on their Vortech supercharger kits (certain kits) retrospective from VYII

VYSHSV8

28-04-2005, 05:48 PM

I can feel the cost of modifying my car is about to go through the roof.

If this is true, then our beloved tuners need to start having customers sign disclaimers or fork out the cost for the ADR box to get a tick.

Why are aftermarket cams / turbos / superchargers allowed to be sold if it is obvious that they will effect the cars emmisions causing a breach. Realistically unless it is sold in a kit form with the ADR approval, then the aftermarket parts should not be sold :eek:

Is Martins kit the only one certified ?
In the old days not so long ago you could go and buy a 13" steering wheel at any after market parts place but it was illegal to fit it, it would be the same for a cam,supercharger etc you can buy it(its not illegal to sell them ) and it was up to you wether you wanted to fit it, owners responsability,but know doubt things have changed since then and if a workshop fits it it becomes there resposiblity, it is the same as tyres you are required by law to have a certain load rating on the tyre and if you buy some that dont have the correctLR on them and fit them yourself it is your responsibilty and are at risk with insurance in an accident, but if a tyre seller ie big company wont name names fits them and they are not correct it becomes there responsiblilty because they should hev checked and not fitted them or refused to fit the tyre that the owner requested.

hsv-105

28-04-2005, 05:57 PM

I've paid for my adr compliance & engineers certificate with a well known Melbourne blower installer, & to date received neither.
We went conservative on the cam (~GTS) & they removed my Difillipo headers so that the cats would be closer to the engine for quicker heat-up.
In spite of this, it failed its emission test. :-(

That was just prior to Christmas. The deal was; they gave me my car back for me to use in the meantime, they'd configure one of their company cars to the same spec as mine, give that spec a name, get it complied & my car would come under a blanket compliance for that configuration. They said they'd call for my car for the engineer to climb over before signing his life away early February. Still waiting...

I assume the primary issue is one of tuning competence. There are lots of very good tuners that are experienced in maximum power tunes, but can anyone recommend one that specialises in ADR (emissions) compiance? I'd be tempted to take my car to them for compliance & back-charge the original installer...

Not all petrol-heads are happy being outlaws. Is anyone out there full bottle on where I stand legally with my original installer?
How about LPG with a PDB for emissions compliance sake? I assume there would be power gains to be had with LPG because of its higher octane?
Familiar story

Twinkle Twinkle Little .....?

bobg

28-04-2005, 10:30 PM

Why are aftermarket cams / turbos / superchargers allowed to be sold if it is obvious that they will effect the cars emmisions causing a breach. Realistically unless it is sold in a kit form with the ADR approval, then the aftermarket parts should not be sold

Problem is you cannot say that in all circumstances the aftermarket cams / turbos / superchargers will cause a breach. For many engine applications such as racing, speed boats, etc there are no emission requirements. Further, such equipment when fitted along with other modifications may be fully compliant.

You cannot ban a product outright that in certain situations may be quite legal!!!!

Regards

Bob G

Animal

29-04-2005, 09:29 AM

..... and the word ' may ' is supposed to cover their ass if a dispute rises.

Smoking may cause lung cancer.

exwrx

29-04-2005, 09:36 AM

Animal, IMO MacJXL's situation is different.

The arrangement in his case was ADR compliance for his mods, and the cost of gaining that was included in the price. If the workshop cant gain compliance for the mods then they are duty bound to keep trying until this is achieved, or to refund his money. Simple contract law. ;)

MACJXL

06-05-2005, 11:44 AM

The latest news is that the workshop has told me middle of next month for the emissions test on their shop car...

Question for expert tuners:
My cam spec is 216/224@.050, 114 lobe sep, .560 lift
What are the odds of this cam being able to be tuned for 2004 ADR emission compliance assuming I run BP Ultimate? Is there a chance, or are they p*ssing into the wind?

spiv

06-05-2005, 11:51 AM