Tuning cost

[VX2VESS]

Can the cost of tuning be justified in general?

This is a genuine question not directed at any tuner, as the cost structure has been around for a long time. It was in the start justified by the high setup cost to tune, which I didn't really agree with either. No with many tuner popping up the pricing isn’t varying much. The actual tuning tool isn’t a big cost to a shop, a dyno and experience is a bigger cost, but these tools are not just used to tune ls1’s. they probably if experience had a dyno long before ls1 came out. Tuning is parts and labour like any other work. Before the ls1 came along tuning was just dyno time, labour time and parts.

Lets look at some facts let say for a stock car for this purpose.

1/.Experinced tuners can tune in 1 hour or less, so that say one hour labour.
2/.a few of runs on the dyno, base run, tune check, maybe one more tune check and printout. can vary....
2/. road test to insure that’s all ok in the real world.
3/. Generally in the industry shops do not add a charge to recover the cost of their tools. Maybe more for the very experienced in the hourly rates for there expert knowledge. By very I mean those that are really good at what they do, can setup any sort of race car etc. these guys being at the top end of the rate, not you average service shop.

So on average that would be

$400 1 hour labour (is higher for a experienced person)
$150 dyno time

Even at $550 the cost of the specific tool to tune would be recovered in 25 to 35 tunes. But do they also charge us extra because they need a new set of spanners?

So potentially a tuner can earn $1,500 per hour currently. who needs other work if you can get 1 per hour, 2 per day would prob do...why are so many poping up and charge the same, ppl willing to pay it still no matter how experinced the tuner is.

[strife]

dont forget about cost of workshops, dynos R&D time etc

[VX2VESS]

dont forget about cost of workshops, dynos R&D time etc

yep mentioned these. they are not just for ls1 tuning so why is the cost added to ls1 tuning and not the other cars also.

think tuning other cars of all types do they cost $1500 also? even those with carby that require dyno tuning time. Even say a jap car with a haltech computer that requires a one hour tune.

[bigdog1971]

dont forget about cost of workshops, dynos R&D time etc


Is that not included in the Labour costs, I mean when you get a service done at Holden (for example) they dont have a "extra charge" to pay for the workshop and alike!
I only recall paying for Parts/Labour/Disposal costs.

[VX2VESS]

Is that not included in the Labour costs, I mean when you get a service done at Holden (for example) they dont have a "extra charge" to pay for the workshop and alike!
I only recall paying for Parts/Labour/Disposal costs.

this is what i mean yes

[strife]

Is that not included in the Labour costs, I mean when you get a service done at Holden (for example) they dont have a "extra charge" to pay for the workshop and alike!
I only recall paying for Parts/Labour/Disposal costs.

you dont think that these are all figured into the above costs ?

[chook]

I would have to agree with you on the price of tunes, a pretty good hourly rate @ $1500 per tune. Unfortunately this is what the market is paying, it comes down to supply and demand. If someone (namely the LS1 faternity) is willing to pay this amount and there is enough demand which there obviously is, the tuners can charge what they want. All it would take is one tuner to drop there price and I'm sure the price would come tumbling down.
Sounds to me just like the old Petrol prices, they all amazingly charge the same price at the same time.

Having said that, nobody forces us to get a tune so ???

[Avalanche]

What an interesting post. Seeing it from that point of view is one way i have never looked at it. But having been in a tuning family prior to editing. the average carby rebuild tune plugs leads dyno time etc etc on a thermoquad or rochester would be struggling to get near say $1500.00. But i have no problem in paying as it is something i personally cant do or understand. So i would rather pay some one who does. It us as simple as if u dont like the cost dont buy. It is also like supply & demand. I am not the cheapest kitchen manufacturer in my area yet i still get work. I believe i need to charge what i charge, and if people were not happy with what i produce they dont have to buy. Or if demand drops off then due to market reasons i may have to re evaluate my pricing. Or decide to do nothing & go broke, which is better than being flat out & going broke. Thats my 2c worth. :D

[VX2VESS]

how much value is in a workshop like holden. all the equipment and tools they have they should charge $2000 per hour to cover this? Do they charge this when have to reload a tune they developed?

[VYSSBlack]

Is that not included in the Labour costs, I mean when you get a service done at Holden (for example) they dont have a "extra charge" to pay for the workshop and alike!
I only recall paying for Parts/Labour/Disposal costs.

I dont think you can compare Holden to a tuner. A tuner actually does something to your car. Holden just wash it and reset your PCM and tell you everything is within spec :bash:

Edit: your paying for your tuners experience. As opposed to an aprentice at Holdens.

[VooDoo]

I would have to agree with you on the price of tunes, a pretty good hourly rate @ $1500 per tune. Unfortunately this is what the market is paying, it comes down to supply and demand. If someone (namely the LS1 faternity) is willing to pay this amount and there is enough demand which there obviously is, the tuners can charge what they want. All it would take is one tuner to drop there price and I'm sure the price would come tumbling down.
Sounds to me just like the old Petrol prices, they all amazingly charge the same price at the same time.

Having said that, nobody forces us to get a tune so ???

That rate is for Sydney and far north QLD. Brisbane hasnt paid that for a long time. I believe Melb is also a bit cheaper these days.

[VYSHSV8]

Put it this way I got quoted under the grand mark the other day, so prices are coming down

[RIDE:42]

If you droped of a BA falcoon to get a tune and got the type of power we do or IF the BA achieved a 12 :lol: do you think you winge about $1500

[Ryzz]

That rate is for Sydney and far north QLD. Brisbane hasnt paid that for a long time. I believe Melb is also a bit cheaper these days.
What is the going rate in Qld (Approx) VooDoo??

[VX2VESS]

i'm not complaining at paying for a good tune. just how they arrive at the cost compared to everything else mechanical.

[LX346]

I think its mainly Sydney with the $1500 prices, other states some are under $1000, but I agree vt2vx, my distant relative purchased one of those hot new Snap On tool boxes, the ones you can stand on a shelf and not bend them, cost $10,000 for the tool box without tools. Should he now put his labour rates up because his tool box just cost him $10,000? After all it is a workshop tool. I know the answer, you know the answer.

I think in a few years time tuning will be cheap as chips when every 2nd person is doing it.

[xshore]

My gf's uncle is now doing some edits and I don't know anything about it, he has the software, computer, dyno. To do an edit the cables that he got are $450 each and he got 5 at the one time. So when he feels he has enough experience he will do my car at cost price which will be $450.

[RIDE:42]

You only get what you pay for
you would not take you car to the mower shop or the electrial repair shop would you ? ;)

[VX2VESS]

You only get what you pay for
you would not take you car to the mower shop or the electrial repair shop would you ? ;)

um that doesn't relate really

would you take you car there for any type of work.

problem is with a $1500 per hour charge across the board in sydney only on ls1 tuning. any other work you pay less than 200 per hour for the same experince and workshops

[Febs]

vt2vx - I agree. While there's obviously a large setup cost involved, and dyno time (if the tune is done on a dyno) is expensive...it's pretty hard to see $1,500 value in a tune.

My tuner has been good to me - he spent almost a whole day with me initially, and I've had my car back several times for various things (diff gears, stock reflashing when I went in for warranty work, shift point adjustment etc..) and he's fixed those things up free of charge...so in a way the $1,500 I paid wasn't just for a one off.

That said though, I do think $1,500 is a bit rich. I'm sure there's plenty of people here who know tuners and get it done for a few hundred, if not less (mate's rates etc..) I really didn't know anyone in the automotive industry, let alone any LS1 tuners...so it was just the price I had to pay.

Cheers,
- Febs.

[bluess57]

What is it going to cost to tune your own car?
(very rough prices)
Software package & cable etc ... $800-900
Dyno time $200-300+ or else Wideband O2 $300+
Laptop computer (if you had to buy one) $1500

Getting the tune wrong... $$$??? :lol:

[OzJavelin]

Interesting conversation and my input is purely observational as my SV8 is stock (I feel dirty). I'd say one reason why tuning prices are so high is because of the results; on average it sounds like you guys can pick up 20-30rwkW. Really, that's a lot for the money. For me to get 30rwkW out of the old 5.0 in my AU ute I'd be spending a lot more than that ..

Sounds like the tuners are basically riding on the coat-tails of a engine with a LOT of repressed potential. If they tried the same little tweaking tricks with Falcon owners, the results would be very different and a lot of dissatisfied customers.

All that aside I'd much rather take my car to a real professional. If they are a real professional they can charge a bit more. Additionally I'd like to also take my car to someone who understands fundamentals .. who can work on a car without the aid of a computer. I've seen a few "mechanics" mucking about with computers trying to get old 5.0 Commodores just started .. without going over the basics like fuel, spark, etc ..

Rod.

[Justice R8]

um that doesn't relate really

would you take you car there for any type of work.

problem is with a $1500 per hour charge across the board in sydney only on ls1 tuning. any other work you pay less than 200 per hour for the same experince and workshops

You are paying for intellectual property. Bill gates made Windows. Do you think it cost him what he charges for windows. No! He charges for the knowledge that went into making it. The same for tuning.

You can buy a chip for a 308 holden at anywhere form $350 to $650.
You can get a mail order tune from $200 to $400 for an ls1

Custome tune for 308 from $1000 to $1500
Custom Tune for Ls1 from $1000 to $1500.

You pay fo experience. If you want no frills go to a cheap and cheary tuner and get a $500 "custom tune" and enjoy you get what you pay for.

If your having brain surgery do you want the cheapest or pay a bit more and get the best

Its that simple

[Muffdaddy]

I've had my SS for about 18 months and thought I'd wait until the price of an edit went down...silly me. as long as there are LS1 owners out there that will pay anywhere from $1100 to $1750 for a brazilian tune, why would the tuning shops lower their prices.
All we need is 1 or 2 shops to lower the price to about $800.00 then we'll see some fierce price wars.
That would be fun. For now though, I'll wait for my next tax cheque and maybe then I'll get an edit.

[fatas]

may be we should do a tuner price shoot out say 346 maf tune price ?
346 mafless tune price ? there carnt be that much price difference across australia can there ? any tuner willing to post there price on the above jobs ? please note i did not ask for there expected kw gain as i know some will get better than others with different mods on the car ect. :)

[MNR-0]

There is no substitue for experience, and there are quite a few experienced workshops out there. With regards to Intellectual Property, thats always going to be a sticky issue.

IMO, if I pay for a tune then I own that Tune. Same goes for any mechanical work and mods. It doesnt "belong" to the workshop, not unless it can be patented, copyrighted, protected or is warrantied under contract or licence. An exchange of goods has taken place and ownership transfers to the respective buyer. However, knowledge and experience cannot be transferred and in part thats why some Tuners are more expensive than others.

You can take the result of what someone has done and duplicate it but will it always work on another car? Why and how has the Tuner ended up doing it this way or that? Thats what spearates the chaff from the experts. You can't buy that from anyone, but you can benefit by getting them to do it for you.

[VooDoo]

Fatas: Price is still subjective

Do you want a Hyundi Edit or a Rolls Royce edit. There is a big differance between good tuners, great tuners and New tuners. The new guys are trying to gain business and do cheap work. Some may be good but they are still learning. The workshops that have had it for years, had a lot more experiance and bought all the upgrades, new software, invested heavily in workshops etc and have proven results charge more.

QLD is cheaper for Diff gears, Auto rebuilds, Edits, and a range of items. No idea why but thats the way it is. Sydney seems to have more customers and even with more tuners there is less competition for work. Is $1500 worth it to have Sam do a tune, I believe so. If someone else without the same experiance charged that much i'd be concerned. As Darren said, do you pay a Brain surgeon $45 an out like a GP? OR do you pay a QC in a murder trial the same as a convencing solicitor??

Even though they may do a similar job its the experiance and service you pay for.

[fatas]

i agree with you voodoo. :) but i am still miffed why there is a huge price difference all over australia ? experiance is every thing but get the tune shops that post here to put there standard of the street price up on the 2 tunes just so we can see the costs.

[Mongy]

1/.Experinced tuners can tune in 1 hour or less, so that say one hour labour.That hour is to fine tune a "base tune" uploaded into your PCM, not to start completely from scratch, don't forget that. This is a little something everybody has forgotten. How much did that cost, or how long did it take to write that tune? How much R&D went into it? How many problems had to be solved along the way e.g. mafless tunes and auto's? There are many many things that go into making up a price, including the high cost of overheads. I do know one thing, a good tune and peace of mind is priceless when compared to how much a bungled tune could cost.

[VX2VESS]

again cheapest is not the point being made. the price between the guru tuners varies by $500 plus australia wide for a tune that give the same result.

Why isn't the hourly rate for tunes and other work the same. same person, same shop has 2 different rates one for tunes and one for everything else? the expert that builds your motor then tunes it uses two different rates. imaging for the expert to build the motor and charge $1500 per hour for that also, this is also a skill. a skill you would go to the best for...howthey build the motor, the finer details is also intellectual property. how a car is setup to race is also the same, some do it much better.

i have no problem if any type of car at any top workshop cost the same to tune or near the same but up to $1,000 difference for any aussie, jap or whatever for a tune?

Based on KW gain it is worth it for the ls1. say for a minute any car took 1 hour to tune. one jap car gets 10 kws for $500 the other ls1 30 or 40kws for the same amount of time but 3 times the price. both are guru tuners is that where it is in the gain?

dunno still not sure where the price comes from, seem like toher are the same. need better explaination

[VX2VESS]

That hour is to fine tune a "base tune" uploaded into your PCM, not to start completely from scratch, don't forget that. This is a little something everybody has forgotten. How much did that cost, or how long did it take to write that tune? How much R&D went into it? How many problems had to be solved along the way e.g. mafless tunes and auto's? There are many many things that go into making up a price, including the high cost of overheads. I do know one thing, a good tune and peace of mind is priceless when compared to how much a bungled tune could cost.

best explaination so far.

but isn't that part of leaning how to do it. do you charge more when you get any new workshop tool and have to learn how to use it.

buy new software to tune the ls1, have to learn it all again how to use it. your still the same expert but have a new tool. do i charge even more cuase i have to learn this one and i end up with the same result but even quicker?

[uterus]

QLD is cheaper for Diff gears, Auto rebuilds, Edits, and a range of items. No idea why but thats the way it is. Sydney seems to have more customers and even with more tuners there is less competition for work. Is $1500 worth it to have Sam do a tune, I believe so. If someone else without the same experiance charged that much i'd be concerned. As Darren said, do you pay a Brain surgeon $45 an out like a GP? OR do you pay a QC in a murder trial the same as a convencing solicitor??

Even though they may do a similar job its the experiance and service you pay for.[/QUOTE]


Sydney is more expensive for everything. Just leasing a small factory/workshop alone would be at least 20% more than other states. Not to mention the extra insurance premiums we pay.
I think it is worth $1500 for Sam to do a tune. Dont forget , there is also the cost of the maf pipe & air cleaner included in his price. I would rather have Sam (a mechanic that knows) tune my car rather than a TV technician that doesnt know the slightest thing about motors.

[VX2VESS]

QLD is cheaper for Diff gears, Auto rebuilds, Edits, and a range of items. No idea why but thats the way it is. Sydney seems to have more customers and even with more tuners there is less competition for work. Is $1500 worth it to have Sam do a tune, I believe so. If someone else without the same experiance charged that much i'd be concerned. As Darren said, do you pay a Brain surgeon $45 an out like a GP? OR do you pay a QC in a murder trial the same as a convencing solicitor??

Even though they may do a similar job its the experiance and service you pay for.


Sydney is more expensive for everything. Just leasing a small factory/workshop alone would be at least 20% more than other states. Not to mention the extra insurance premiums we pay.
I think it is worth $1500 for Sam to do a tune. Dont forget , there is also the cost of the maf pipe & air cleaner included in his price. I would rather have Sam (a mechanic that knows) tune my car rather than a TV technician that doesnt know the slightest thing about motors.[/QUOTE]

ok then explain why dick has no workshop but costs the same? disregaurd the latest thread problem :D

[Mongy]

OK, let’s look at it this way.
What is it that everyone wants these days? A FIXED price so they know when the car goes in for a tune it is not going to possibly cost twice as much. So are we ultimately not the ones to blame? All our tuners are doing is giving us is what we want. What would everybody say if they went in and the tuner said, "dunno how much mate, we'll have to see how long it takes". They have to cover all contingencies when giving a fixed price, including overheads, r&d, I know, I said it before :lol: . Yeh, you still might say it's too expensive, and in reality it just might be, but I still say peace of mind is priceless. I would still go to my tuner even if a new bloke down the road was half the price. Good point about the no workshop bit, but, with real time it takes a whole lot longer too, remember that. It's a catch 22 isn't it? Pay the workshop for his overheads, including dyno, or pay the little guy for more of his time.

[seldo]

OK, let’s look at it this way.
What is it that everyone wants these days? A FIXED price so they know when the car goes in for a tune it is not going to possibly cost twice as much. So are we ultimately not the ones to blame? All our tuners are doing is giving us is what we want. What would everybody say if they went in and the tuner said, "dunno how much mate, we'll have to see how long it takes". They have to cover all contingencies when giving a fixed price, including overheads, r&d, I know, I said it before :lol: . Yeh, you still might say it's too expensive, and in reality it just might be, but I still say peace of mind is priceless. I would still go to my tuner even if a new bloke down the road was half the price.
Spot-on Mongy!
This whole thread reminds me of the story about the huge hi-tech factory that suddenly and inexplicably stopped in the middle of a production-run. They had 5000 workers, so they were all just sitting around twiddling their thumbs as the maintenance staff rushed around in the dark trying to find the solution. Mick the Manager was in a flap and asked the maintenance guys to work around the clock to fix it. Next day - still no solution... and the next day too...and the next. So Mick was finally referred to Eddy the Expert and rang him and said "You must come straight away!" Eddy said, "Sorry...very busy at present...how about late next week?" Mick said "No, please...you must come straight away..this is costing us $50,000 per day in lost production. I don't care what it costs - just come straight away." So, Eddy arrives half an hour later and wanders through the factory in the dark flashing a torch here and there and muttering to himself. Finally, after 15 mins...he stops, and asks for a hammer. Then he goes over to one of the walls and feels around for a few seconds and bangs twice on the wall with the hammer. Moments later, all the lights come on and the machines all start to crank-up...problem solved. Mick is just over the moon and says to Eddy "Thanks so much.Your reputation is well deserved. Please just send me the bill."
So, a week later the bill arrives....$20,500..!! :shock:
Mick nearly faints, but rings up Eddy and asks him to itemise the bill. "Sure" says Eddy. "I charge $500 per hour for my time. So, the bill is $350 for my travel time, $125 for my time there, and $25 for my labour for banging on the wall.........and .......I charged you $20,000 for knowing WHERE to bang on the wall. Any questions?" "No," says Mick, and paid up promptly.

So, the same with your tune. You can pay less, but I'm happy to pay for someones expertise and hard-won experience, to get the right result..
Hope all that didn't bore you too much..:)

[HSV8]

What he said :cheers: :rofl:

interesting conversation and there are two things that will drive this price.

1.set up and maintaining equipment and facilities

I think that there is more to it than meets the eye for a good tuner to stay at the top of his game and ahead of the pack. I have seen the costs involved in upgrading and maintaining a workshop that does this work and it is scarey it's not just a programe, cable and go for it. it's keeping software up to date replacing consumable parts cables sensors and dyno maint and calibration etc rent labour and so forth. I know some tuners would rather not do it now and get back to doing mech work as it is more profitable and less of a headache.

2.The bottom line is
What the market is prepared to pay is what gets charged unfortunately when the cut price war gets too lean we will probably loose some good tuners who are also smart business men and work out it aint worth the time, effort, investment and trouble with customers who return 50 times after the tune cause it did not make enough power on some one elses dyno or it does this or that blah blah.

It's like plasma screens digital cameras and other new tech exe at first then competative .

But I must say I only do business to make a buck and so should they if they make a good dollar for their return they will spend the extra time to do it properly and not have to rush through them just to keep the doors open.

it's a bit like hyundai or BMW both are cars and modes of getting from a to b but the comparison is not even worth doing.

Live and let live I say the price is right for today's market tomorrow will decide the future.

[Mongy]

Spot-on Mongy!
This whole thread reminds me of the story about the huge hi-tech factory that suddenly and inexplicably stopped in the middle of a production-run. They had 5000 workers, so they were all just sitting around twiddling their thumbs as the maintenance staff rushed around in the dark trying to find the solution. Mick the Manager was in a flap and asked the maintenance guys to work around the clock to fix it. Next day - still no solution... and the next day too...and the next. So Mick was finally referred to Eddy the Expert and rang him and said "You must come straight away!" Eddy said, "Sorry...very busy at present...how about late next week?" Mick said "No, please...you must come straight away..this is costing us $50,000 per day in lost production. I don't care what it costs - just come straight away." So, Eddy arrives half an hour later and wanders through the factory in the dark flashing a torch here and there and muttering to himself. Finally, after 15 mins...he stops, and asks for a hammer. Then he goes over to one of the walls and feels around for a few seconds and bangs twice on the wall with the hammer. Moments later, all the lights come on and the machines all start to crank-up...problem solved. Mick is just over the moon and says to Eddy "Thanks so much.Your reputation is well deserved. Please just send me the bill."
So, a week later the bill arrives....$20,500..!! :shock:
Mick nearly faints, but rings up Eddy and asks him to itemise the bill. "Sure" says Eddy. "I charge $500 per hour for my time. So, the bill is $350 for my travel time, $125 for my time there, and $25 for my labour for banging on the wall.........and .......I charged you $20,000 for knowing WHERE to bang on the wall. Any questions?" "No," says Mick, and paid up promptly.

So, the same with your tune. You can pay less, but I'm happy to pay for someones expertise and hard-won experience, to get the right result..
Hope all that didn't bore you too much..:)What a pearler Seldo, couldn't have put it better :cool: It pays to pay a good tuner, it pays to avoid a bad one.

[LX346]

I use to go by the rule that $1000 for 50HP was a good build, eg. build a complete 350SBC with reliable 400HP for $8000 turn key.

So when it comes to LS1's I spose you see around a 50HP increase thru edit, so $1000 would be great, but like others have said it comes by demand vs supply, not a lot of workshops do it, think of all the mechanical shops in Sydney and then count how many tune factory computers?

It makes you feel a lil bit for the HSV owners, they get charged the same for a tune and walk out with the same power as an exec fella.

[HSV8]

It makes you feel a lil bit for the HSV owners, they get charged the same for a tune and walk out with the same power as an exec fella.

um :confused: slight difference in the car/ overall package though :cool:

dont feel sorry for us :lol:

[CorporateJet]

This is a very interesting thread indeed. This sort of pricing structure has been around for a very long time and will continue forever. In my opinion, the higher the value of the car, the higher the perception of wealth and affordability on the owner/s.

Example. Cat back exhaust for an Excel is $180.00. Same exhaust (brand name or not) for a WRX, about $1200.00. Same exhaust for a HSV $1300+. Is there $1300 per exhaust worth of R&D and materials or experience in each exhaust. The answer is highly doubtful. That's the going rate from other "tuners" and customers are paying for it so let's charge the same and put the inflated costs down to experience. Remember, I am only talking about an exhaust for one type of vehicle. I am not taking into account all the other work a workshop does that, even though may involve a lot more work (eg. replace clutch, brake rotors etc), costs less. :confused:

Vehicle servicing is another thing. A Porsche general service for a 10,000 will always cost more than a commodore. Why? Because they can. If you can't afford the servicing costs of a Porsche you can't afford to buy one. The parts are also more expensive. Even though they might be the exact same Bosch fuel pump, the one branded Porsche will most certainly be considerably more expensive.

This is the same for LS1 equipped vehicles. Every owner had the choice to purchase a "mum and dad family car" v6 version of the car they currently own. The performance option (read: more expensive) was taken so the perception is "you can afford it".

While it is our choice to choice a better handling, safer, more comfortable, more powerful vehicle it is not acceptable for enthusiasts to have their pants pulled down by aftermarket tuners. Aftermarket tuners can not justify $1000+ for a tune that takes one hour. What about labour, dyno costs, equipment??? I hear you ask. Say I take my car for a 2 dyno runs at xyz workshop. Dyno run is $100 each. 1 hour of the workshop's time @ $100/hour (generous). total cost = $300.00. But i'm getting my car "tuned", with a preprogrammed MAP provided by a supplier or paid for the first customer that walked in and asked for a "tune". Yet customers pay more than 3 times that!!!

You might say, "You don't know how much it costs to run a workshop". Dealer workshops cost a more to run and they do it far tougher than aftermarket workshops but don't charge a bomb for something that equates to a PCM flash and a road test. While I understand the costs associated with running such businesses, its the same for everyone.

I know from personal experience, if I do something that I have not done before it may take me quite a while to perfect a process or product. I also know that I can not charge that customer the full time that I have spent on the project. So I charge an acceptable rate to the customer and will continue to charge the same price or cheaper if I do it more often. Why? Its called business ethics. Do right by the customer and they'll do right by you.

How tough can business be if there is no competition to provide better value for consumers? I don't see the owners of such businesses roughing it with their flash cars, houses, boats etc. PS. I know its none of my business what people spend their money on, and I don't care, but it's pretty hard to cry poor when your driving a Merc AMG or Porsche. :rolleyes:

[Red CV8 R]

Interesting thread. I can see both sides. A good tunner puts alot of work into providing a top notch tune, and the results make it worthwhile. However I had a days worth of tuning done to my 355ci Senator and paid under $1k from SAS in Sydney a very respected tuner so obviously the newness of the LS1 plays a part in the price.

[VX2VESS]

Sydney is more expensive for everything. Just leasing a small factory/workshop alone would be at least 20% more than other states. Not to mention the extra insurance premiums we pay.
I think it is worth $1500 for Sam to do a tune. Dont forget , there is also the cost of the maf pipe & air cleaner included in his price. I would rather have Sam (a mechanic that knows) tune my car rather than a TV technician that doesnt know the slightest thing about motors

ok then explain why dick has no workshop but costs the same? disregard the latest thread problem :D

dunno what happened to this one, last sentence was mine.

At least i go you blokes thinking :p instead of being sheep :booty:

I like HSV8s explaination like new plasma TV etc heaps then get cheaper cuase it new. What were plasmas 20K when first out now 5K same size.

[uterus]

I didnt know that Dick had no workshop. I have never had any dealings with him. Is he a TV technician too??

[LX346]

I didnt know that Dick had no workshop. I have never had any dealings with him. Is he a TV technician too??

My TV stinks, friggin NEC needs a good tune.

[dark]

again cheapest is not the point being made. the price between the guru tuners varies by $500 plus australia wide for a tune that give the same result.

I agree, before I had my last two cars edited I did the 4 quotes, visited the workshops, spoke to the experts in various parts of Melbourne. There was a total $525.00 different from the highest to the lowest. I certainly do not think I had an average job completed on mine and returned there with my next car. I would never conclude that the dearest is the best!! and I say I did get what I paid for, an excellent job without having to pay a half a grand more.

[seedyrom]

Everyone is charging $1500. There's no distinction between a good and bad tuner when they all charge the same. The only way to find out is through consumer feedback on sites such as this one.

[dark]

Everyone is charging $1500. There's no distinction between a good and bad tuner when they all charge the same. The only way to find out is through consumer feedback on sites such as this one.


Only in Sydney!

[BLACK 346]

:yup:
Only in Sydney!

Yes, I agree with you, the good ones are in Sydney

[One tonner]

To go back to the original post to how tune cost can be justified an unfortunate fact of business is cash flow.
For those of you who work for a boss, you would be very surprised maybe in fact shocked how much it costs to run a business.
Its not just the initial out lay for equipment that’s easy just get a loan. The every day running costs of a business are the killer. This is why so many business go broke in the first year or so.
It’s not your money you see going in. It’s the money you don’t see going out.
Some factors in costs you may want to consider.
Wages.
Workcover
Advertising
Insurance
Tools
Stock
Computers
Phone bills
Fuel
Vehicles
Repairs
Stationary
My personal favourite is TAX. :mad:
A price of say $1200 for an edit to you may be a lot of money but for a business like some of the bigger mechanical shops would be a drop in the ocean that is cash flow.
I would like to see a tuner comment on how much it cost him to get you to call to book an edit.

[Tonner]

:yup:

Yes, I agree with you, the good ones are in Sydney
You should help your local forum members and mention the good ones, its not a crime if you omit the bad ones, you could always say you forgot them when cornered, :lol: but the locals will get the drift,

[MNR-0]

:yup:

Yes, I agree with you, the good ones are in Sydney
Yeah but our Dynos read higher. :booty:

[BLACK 346]

You should help your local forum members and mention the good ones, its not a crime if you omit the bad ones, you could always say you forgot them when cornered, :lol: but the locals will get the drift,

Wouln't help them much, I am in NT now :lol:

[Chris52]

To go back to the original post to how tune cost can be justified an unfortunate fact of business is cash flow.
For those of you who work for a boss, you would be very surprised maybe in fact shocked how much it costs to run a business.
Its not just the initial out lay for equipment that’s easy just get a loan. The every day running costs of a business are the killer. This is why so many business go broke in the first year or so.
It’s not your money you see going in. It’s the money you don’t see going out.
Some factors in costs you may want to consider.
Wages.
Workcover
Advertising
Insurance
Tools
Stock
Computers
Phone bills
Fuel
Vehicles
Repairs
Stationary
My personal favourite is TAX. :mad:
A price of say $1200 for an edit to you may be a lot of money but for a business like some of the bigger mechanical shops would be a drop in the ocean that is cash flow.
I would like to see a tuner comment on how much it cost him to get you to call to book an edit.

Well put, one tonner!!
Quite simply tuning is a business and good businesses (as per seldo's post) know where to bang on the wall.

Cheers

Chrus.

[BLACK 346]

Yeah but our Dynos read higher. :booty:

From what I have read on here, I wish you were my
next door neighbour MNR-O, rather that the pricks
that live there now, I really could do with a touch
up on the old tune :)

[Mongy]

At least i go you blokes thinking :p instead of being sheep :booty:
Aww, you mean we're no longer sheep :eek:


Yeah but our Dynos read higher.
Not as high as S.A. :lol:

[Martin_D]

Not as high as S.A. :lol:

Nor are your cars as fast, so it all works out in the end :cool:

[fatas]

back to the start what is tuna or f1 or sams or others price for a maf or mafless tune ? :confused:

[VFast]

Isn't it funny how we don't see too many tuners commenting on this thread??? :rolleyes:

[HOWQUICK]

I'll chuck my hat in here....

If you think it is too dear don't buy it. Life is full of choices purchasing a tune for your car is one of them.

The price is set by the market. Obviously a lot are happy to pay otherwise the price would fall? ;)

No one has to justify what they charge.....the market just sets it. Once thing balance out it is called equilibrium.

[seldo]

I'll chuck my hat in here....

If you think it is too dear don't buy it. Life is full of choices purchasing a tune for your car is one of them.

The price is set by the market. Obviously a lot are happy to pay otherwise the price would fall? ;)

No one has to justify what they charge.....the market just sets it. Once thing balance out it is called equilibrium.
All too true!
But, as with most things in life, you tend to get what you pay for. I'm happy to pay for experience which gives me a good result. It wouldn't matter to me if there was a tune available that was $500 cheaper, but wasn't the best. I'm quite happy to pay for a premium product at a premium price. It's the same as when I go to restaurant - if i get a meal that I am not happy with, it doesn't matter if it was cheap..I'm still not happy with it. Cheap doesn't make it good. And if a tuner can deliver the goods and is able to charge a premium price...good on him. It's business and It's called the law of supply and demand. As soon as he has some quality competition who is charging less, he may have to lower his prices, but until then..go for it. And unless I can either do it as well myself, or find someone else who can do it as well, I'll continue to pay the price. If you were going to court facing a serious charge, would you want the best QC defending you, or would you rather pay less and maybe end up in the slammer. Both QCs will have to spend the same time in court, so why is one worth $2000 per day and the other one $10000 per day? They are both just people except one might just have a better idea of where to bang on the wall....;) Finding it objectionable because it may only take the guy an hour has no relevance. The knowledge that is required to get him this far has probably taken years to acquire - are you prepared to pay for that..? It's the same as buying a bottle of tablets. They might cost $50 per bottle yet the actual ingredients only cost cents...but it's the R&D that has cost the money.

[Justice R8]

This is a very interesting thread indeed. This sort of pricing structure has been around for a very long time and will continue forever. In my opinion, the higher the value of the car, the higher the perception of wealth and affordability on the owner/s.

Example. Cat back exhaust for an Excel is $180.00. Same exhaust (brand name or not) for a WRX, about $1200.00. Same exhaust for a HSV $1300+. Is there $1300 per exhaust worth of R&D and materials or experience in each exhaust. The answer is highly doubtful. That's the going rate from other "tuners" and customers are paying for it so let's charge the same and put the inflated costs down to experience. Remember, I am only talking about an exhaust for one type of vehicle. I am not taking into account all the other work a workshop does that, even though may involve a lot more work (eg. replace clutch, brake rotors etc), costs less. :confused:

Vehicle servicing is another thing. A Porsche general service for a 10,000 will always cost more than a commodore. Why? Because they can. If you can't afford the servicing costs of a Porsche you can't afford to buy one. The parts are also more expensive. Even though they might be the exact same Bosch fuel pump, the one branded Porsche will most certainly be considerably more expensive.

This is the same for LS1 equipped vehicles. Every owner had the choice to purchase a "mum and dad family car" v6 version of the car they currently own. The performance option (read: more expensive) was taken so the perception is "you can afford it".

While it is our choice to choice a better handling, safer, more comfortable, more powerful vehicle it is not acceptable for enthusiasts to have their pants pulled down by aftermarket tuners. Aftermarket tuners can not justify $1000+ for a tune that takes one hour. What about labour, dyno costs, equipment??? I hear you ask. Say I take my car for a 2 dyno runs at xyz workshop. Dyno run is $100 each. 1 hour of the workshop's time @ $100/hour (generous). total cost = $300.00. But i'm getting my car "tuned", with a preprogrammed MAP provided by a supplier or paid for the first customer that walked in and asked for a "tune". Yet customers pay more than 3 times that!!!

You might say, "You don't know how much it costs to run a workshop". Dealer workshops cost a more to run and they do it far tougher than aftermarket workshops but don't charge a bomb for something that equates to a PCM flash and a road test. While I understand the costs associated with running such businesses, its the same for everyone.

I know from personal experience, if I do something that I have not done before it may take me quite a while to perfect a process or product. I also know that I can not charge that customer the full time that I have spent on the project. So I charge an acceptable rate to the customer and will continue to charge the same price or cheaper if I do it more often. Why? Its called business ethics. Do right by the customer and they'll do right by you.

How tough can business be if there is no competition to provide better value for consumers? I don't see the owners of such businesses roughing it with their flash cars, houses, boats etc. PS. I know its none of my business what people spend their money on, and I don't care, but it's pretty hard to cry poor when your driving a Merc AMG or Porsche. :rolleyes:

Which Tuners drive an AMG or Porsche?

As far as the cost of a Porsche GT3 and a Commodore goes I can probably answer that.
Disc Rotors are the classic
Genuine porsche GT3 $301
Genuine HSV $500

The GT3 discs lasts 10 times longer than a HSV disc

The GT3 cost me a lot less to maintain than my HSV. It has cost me a hell of a lot to get my HSV to come close to the old GT3 around a track.

The old GT3 was drive to the track, take off the plates, bolt on the slicks and lets go racing. Porsche Cup Sandown first race, first place second race second place. Thats value for money. Yes there is a large outlay at first of $235k for the car but it was sold 2 years later for $199k. Compare the % lost on the GT3 compared to a GTS after 2 years.

What has this got to do with tuning? It is very similar. Porsche have put a lot of R&D into the car and you pay a premium. They dont change them every year so their cost goes down but the price doesnt. It goes up.

Sam charges $1500 for a Mafless tune including the intake pipe. His Kalmaker stuff for the old 308 iron block is anywhere from $1200 to $1500 as well. He doesnt charge by the type of software, he charges for what he gives and that is his knowledge. Thats why people keep going there.

As I said before, Bill Gates isnt where he is because he is making no profit from his software. Good on him. He put the work in and is reaping the rewards and so he should, just like the good tuners



Mongy
Good point about the no workshop bit, but, with real time it takes a whole lot longer too, remember that. It's a catch 22 isn't it? Pay the workshop for his overheads, including dyno, or pay the little guy for more of his time.

Real time tuning is a lot quicker. You can make the changes on the fly save them and then uplaod them (thats why Sams Kalmaker stuff for the 308 is cheaper) , so are you paying the little guy for more of his time or is the little guy
1. Learning because he has no idea?
2. Driving around all day with you to make you think you are getting great value for money?

A tune on a stocker usually takes one hour and a coupler of runs. Yes there are exception to this for problem cars but not very often. My GF SV8 which is a true stocker with no bolt on except catback (standard manifolds) had 2 or 3 downloads with the old edit (before HP Tuners was around) and ran a 12.58 with Planb at the wheel. That stock time took a long while to beat. But Sam new what he was doing and did it without having to keep guessing on what needed to be changed. Thats where experience comes into play. My 412 as Seen on Speedweek last week (had to throw that in) had 2 downloads on the engine dyno and one on the chassis dyno and drives great and makes enough power to take out first place at Qld Raceway. Why? Sam knows what he is doing. Cut out the Myths and Magic and any tuner worth his salt could probably do this. If they keep your car for days do you really think they are working on it 24/7. If they are get it out of there (refer Back to point 2.).

For the record a tune for the Porsche was $7000 inc PCM. Why did I pay that? Because an engine was worth $80k and some of the cars with local tunes found that out the hard way when they ran lean and went BOOM! Cheap didnt end up cheap for them so my $7k was a good investment and so is my $1500 tune from Sam.

[VX2VESS]

Which Tuners drive an AMG or Porsche?

As far as the cost of a Porsche GT3 and a Commodore goes I can probably answer that.
Disc Rotors are the classic
Genuine porsche GT3 $301
Genuine HSV $500

The GT3 discs lasts 10 times longer than a HSV disc

The GT3 cost me a lot less to maintain than my HSV. It has cost me a hell of a lot to get my HSV to come close to the old GT3 around a track.

The old GT3 was drive to the track, take off the plates, bolt on the slicks and lets go racing. Porsche Cup Sandown first race, first place second race second place. Thats value for money. Yes there is a large outlay at first of $235k for the car but it was sold 2 years later for $199k. Compare the % lost on the GT3 compared to a GTS after 2 years.

What has this got to do with tuning? It is very similar. Porsche have put a lot of R&D into the car and you pay a premium. They dont change them every year so their cost goes down but the price doesnt. It goes up.

Sam charges $1500 for a Mafless tune including the intake pipe. His Kalmaker stuff for the old 308 iron block is anywhere from $1200 to $1500 as well. He doesnt charge by the type of software, he charges for what he gives and that is his knowledge. Thats why people keep going there.

As I said before, Bill Gates isnt where he is because he is making no profit from his software. Good on him. He put the work in and is reaping the rewards and so he should, just like the good tuners



Real time tuning is a lot quicker. You can make the changes on the fly save them and then uplaod them (thats why Sams Kalmaker stuff for the 308 is cheaper) , so are you paying the little guy for more of his time or is the little guy
1. Learning because he has no idea?
2. Driving around all day with you to make you think you are getting great value for money?

A tune on a stocker usually takes one hour and a coupler of runs. Yes there are exception to this for problem cars but not very often. My GF SV8 which is a true stocker with no bolt on except catback (standard manifolds) had 2 or 3 downloads with the old edit (before HP Tuners was around) and ran a 12.58 with Planb at the wheel. That stock time took a long while to beat. But Sam new what he was doing and did it without having to keep guessing on what needed to be changed. Thats where experience comes into play. My 412 as Seen on Speedweek last week (had to throw that in) had 2 downloads on the engine dyno and one on the chassis dyno and drives great and makes enough power to take out first place at Qld Raceway. Why? Sam knows what he is doing. Cut out the Myths and Magic and any tuner worth his salt could probably do this. If they keep your car for days do you really think they are working on it 24/7. If they are get it out of there (refer Back to point 2.).

For the record a tune for the Porsche was $7000 inc PCM. Why did I pay that? Because an engine was worth $80k and some of the cars with local tunes found that out the hard way when they ran lean and went BOOM! Cheap didnt end up cheap for them so my $7k was a good investment and so is my $1500 tune from Sam.

Darren very good post... you know more than you say :D .

Please don’t defend for Sam as this thread was never directed at him. You make it seem it was. Re read first post don't read things into it. Sam was the first to spend the time to get it right, not first but the first one to perfect it, can produce a good tune repeatedly, set the standards. I agree Sam would be the best tuner and the best engine builder. He understands the whole deal if you want a package you’ll get the best. And he should be at the top of the list for Australia. everyone else good average and otherwise tries to copy this and the pricing in many cases for an inferior result, or one that takes a lot longer to do. They all want to be paid the same as the best most experienced, copy the price not the service. That if we take the idea it’s a job based on experience and not pay the hour service


Their is a great tuner in 4 states in Aust that I’d say deserve top $ the rest even beginners want to charge the same.

I understand this tuner pricing a bit more. i understood and thought mechanics to be labour and parts for almost all work. but tuning these days slips into a slightly different category. the best deserve more as the market dictates and those willing to pay for the best. if you can go down the road and get a tune for the best part of the day and still have to return for touch ups for the same price isn't a good deal. Maybe for $1000 as that is more inconvenient. maybe these guys an survive on a couple of tunes a week with little overhead. Maybe they don't realise they could get a tune everyday by charging less and get the experience. Not make mistakes and then ask for top $. When they can make every tune perfect they can charge more.

This is a can of worms I opened, I could go down many paths from this point. Some could tear apart some theories put forward. But for the sake of time and harmony I’ll leave it at that. At least its made ppl think about what they get and that’s a good thing I think.

[Justice R8]

Darren very good post... you know more than you say :D .

Please don’t defend for Sam as this thread was never directed at him. You make it seem it was. Re read first post don't read things into it. Sam was the first to spend the time to get it right, not first but the first one to perfect it, can produce a good tune repeatedly, set the standards. I agree Sam would be the best tuner and the best engine builder. He understands the whole deal if you want a package you’ll get the best. And he should be at the top of the list for Australia. everyone else good average and otherwise tries to copy this and the pricing in many cases for an inferior result, or one that takes a lot longer to do. They all want to be paid the same as the best most experienced, copy the price not the service. That if we take the idea it’s a job based on experience and not pay the hour service


Their is a great tuner in 4 states in Aust that I’d say deserve top $ the rest even beginners want to charge the same.

I understand this tuner pricing a bit more. i understood and thought mechanics to be labour and parts for almost all work. but tuning these days slips into a slightly different category. the best deserve more as the market dictates and those willing to pay for the best. if you can go down the road and get a tune for the best part of the day and still have to return for touch ups for the same price isn't a good deal. Maybe for $1000 as that is more inconvenient. maybe these guys an survive on a couple of tunes a week with little overhead. Maybe they don't realise they could get a tune everyday by charging less and get the experience. Not make mistakes and then ask for top $. When they can make every tune perfect they can charge more.

This is a can of worms I opened, I could go down many paths from this point. Some could tear apart some theories put forward. But for the sake of time and harmony I’ll leave it at that. At least its made ppl think about what they get and that’s a good thing I think.

No offence taken Steve.

Understand where you are coming from. You see it every day. Tunes running around that make power but stall like the other thread that seems to have mysteriously disappeared. They still ran good numbers because wide open throttle is the easy part many say so are stockers. I used Sam as an example as I have a pretty reasonable understanding of how his business operates. He is very service orientated which is shown by the development work he does and the hours he puts in.

Most good tuners know each other and help each other. A great example was when I broke a valve spring at Qld Raceway. I called Sam and within the hour I had a full set of Springs, tools to change them and the engine builder from Powertorque to fit them and get me back on the track. I have never even met Mark from Powertorque but he stopped his engine builder from whatever he was doing and sent him straight out. That is what service is all about from both Sam and Mark.

Yet we still see people buy a laptop and some software that are happy to talk and talk to get the work. I see it all the time when I am at the workshop. People come in and say such and such can do it for this. Sam says go there and get it done as he knows he shouldnt have to convince every person that walks through the door how good he is. Most people that want to talk and talk and be your mate generally are trying to convince you that you are getting value for money. Those that know how to do it and do it right can often be mistaken for arrogant but are not. Sam and Tuna are great examples of this. They are just busy. When I first met Sam I thought he was arrogant. Same with Tuna. My expectation of Tuna was totally different to the person I got to know, same with Sam.

Personally I dont need more mates (I probably do) which is what many people try to do, baffle you with bullshit and make you think it is an all day job. I need someone that can make my car perfect and thats what I have.

[Tonner]

But Look out for us Builders We will Rip ya, Sorry Just couldn't hep that one.
But Top Thread and Info.

[VX2VESS]

Sam hes always seemed to me to be a honest nice person. spose it depends what you see when you first meet. i have seen over time sam say to pll well go there then, which from his point they are wasting his time if they think this way. trouble is they may spread some bad words. but he was work coming out his ears and one bad word in 100 good ones doesn't mean much.

tuna never met him, i believe him to be a tuning freak a smart bloke. that is quite a funny person. but has been somewhat arrogant and in ppls faces a lot. but that just him, and he has become quite good in this area of late. However hard it is for him to hold back :p I'm sure in person most would see him as you have. like or dislike he is a person to see for a tune if within a days drive of him, I would. Can’t deny his work. even if you hated him you go there for a tune. I wish it came that easy to me that ability to tune and recognise the whole picture so quick, pair of smart guys those two…

anyway enough arse licking it does me no good. i'm here to upset the status quo. ;)

[vyssls1]

this is a brilliant thread, good reading guys. Running a buisness isnt cheap, at my work we have bills like a year eg. 25k elec, 5k water, 2k a month phone bill, 8 employees, cost on building etc 60k dyno and doesnt stop, 16 hoist, 3 scan tools, software alone on efi computer 100k, priceless experience, the prices are real. the biggest and most equipped, workshop in australia, for all mechanical and efi, over 30 years. If you had to start my workshop from scratch about 1Mill.

so it doesnt matter what the price is $1500 for a tune is nothing, how would you like to pay some bills for a month, and then u get all the time wasters, coming through the front door.

But heres a question for everyone out there, to have a think about, add up all the money you have spent on the car with mapping eg. edit can u get that money back when you sell your car, the answer is NO.

for eg, maybe go a computer that u can remove and fit to different cars, or if u want sell that computer and recoop your money back.

now thats something to think about.

[daveb]

This is a good post.

$1500 for a proprer tune where the time is taken to log and adjust the tune and a good 4-8 hours is spent getting the tune very good is ok.

Unfortunatley I have seen tuners turn up and flash a tune is and run a couple of passes on the dyno and leave it at that.

It happended to me and my VE table was crap, so was my timing and AFR.

$1500 for a REAL tune is OK, but for a file to be flased to your PCM is bullshit and a complete rip off.

In the US we are seeing prices for such a flash in the low hundreds which is where it should be.

[sillyoldone]

Just a twisted thought - Maybe market forces are dictating the price.

Think about it -

How many are prepared to pay $100-$150 for an air filter to gain 2-3 kw This works out at $50 per kw.

How many are prepared to pay $1000-$1500 for an edit to gain 20-30 kw This works out at $50 per kw.

Could the market price of an additional kw be $50.00?

Try this equation on some of the other mods and it seems to hold true.

[vyssls1]

maybe at the end of this thread they should turn it to a sticky.

[Justice R8]

This is a good post.

$1500 for a proprer tune where the time is taken to log and adjust the tune and a good 4-8 hours is spent getting the tune very good is ok.

Unfortunatley I have seen tuners turn up and flash a tune is and run a couple of passes on the dyno and leave it at that.

It happended to me and my VE table was crap, so was my timing and AFR.

$1500 for a REAL tune is OK, but for a file to be flased to your PCM is bullshit and a complete rip off.

In the US we are seeing prices for such a flash in the low hundreds which is where it should be.

If your VE table was crap you obviously went to the wrong tuner. 8 to 10 hours doesnt make it a good tune. Just ask hithere. He said in the other thread that I cannot find, that countless hours and night after night had been spent on getting the tune right and it wasnt so he had to put the maf back on. Its not a case of pasting another table into your program. That is one of the leading causes of a tune being crap. People think cut and paste will do but it doesnt cut it. Cutting and pasting is not tuning. It is cutting and pasting.

I hope hithere is reading this as Sam made an offer via me for his car to be mafless tuned in less than an hour (FREE) so hithere could once again enjoy his car tuned properly the way it should have been done in the first place after so many hours were spent trying to tune it. I also made an open offer to any of the "It takes 8 to 10 hour to properly tune" believers to come and watch (look and learn) how it is done properly and quickly without any smoke and mirrors

The only possible reasons it would take any longer on hitheres car is

1. if it has a mechanical problem
2. tuner doesnt understand how an engine works

number 2 is critical in tuning. If you understand how an engine works you have a better chance of tuning it properly.

[VX2VESS]

If your VE table was crap you obviously went to the wrong tuner. 8 to 10 hours doesnt make it a good tune. Just ask hithere. He said in the other thread that I cannot find, that countless hours and night after night had been spent on getting the tune right and it wasnt so he had to put the maf back on. Its not a case of pasting another table into your program. That is one of the leading causes of a tune being crap. People think cut and paste will do but it doesnt cut it. Cutting and pasting is not tuning. It is cutting and pasting.

I hope hithere is reading this as Sam made an offer via me for his car to be mafless tuned in less than an hour (FREE) so hithere could once again enjoy his car tuned properly the way it should have been done in the first place after so many hours were spent trying to tune it. I also made an open offer to any of the "It takes 8 to 10 hour to properly tune" believers to come and watch (look and learn) how it is done properly and quickly without any smoke and mirrors

The only possible reasons it would take any longer on hitheres car is

1. if it has a mechanical problem
2. tuner doesnt understand how an engine works

number 2 is critical in tuning. If you understand how an engine works you have a better chance of tuning it properly.


didn't he take up that offer :rolleyes:

must be back at a another week of tuning elsewhere, don't mean same spot he was set on going elsewhere it seemed

what would you have to loose. he can laways get the other one back in the end

[daveb]

i agree the tuner was probably no too good.

but each engine is different and to log every cell and ensure the VE is good takes some time. Then experiement with the AFR to get the best torque/power for the engine, and then run through timing to erradicate knock and ensure best power, is an iterative process and to do it well does indeed take time.

If you have a VE well matched to a set of mods etc you can be 90% there and it can be done in an hour. But for $1500 one would expect more fine tuning.

In my case the guy did NOT even change the VIN number back to my car's VIN after he flashed the file.

[vyssls1]

thats true what was said right at the end.

you have to learn how to walk before you can run.

the name for those people who cut and paste are wanna bees.

the people who are good at tuning are the people who have been tuning for years and are know, raking the benefits. not the backyard workshops wanting to make a quick dollar with in an hour, cause every car is different, different fuel from a different servo.

[spiv]

You pay for what you get and you get what you pay for. A properly tuned head and cam car should be a joy to drive and I mean no surging when cold no hunting, no almost stalling when the thermo fans come on etc. A good tuner can eliminate all of these ailments and SHOULD follow up on any thing that is not right and can be fixed via the software etc. If all done correctly a cam in the mid 220's should drive superbly, idle nicely and return excellent part throttle fuel economy there should be no ifs or buts about it, as far as I am concerned. No body wants their 50 grand car to run like a 1970's torana :eek:

[vyssls1]

hey dont pay out toranas theyre one of fastest down the quarter, and known as the one of the horsepower to weight from factory. next time pay out an old ford.

[Justice R8]

didn't he take up that offer :rolleyes:

must be back at a another week of tuning elsewhere, don't mean same spot he was set on going elsewhere it seemed

what would you have to loose. he can laways get the other one back in the end

I dont know as the thread I have been told was locked last night and gone today. I hadnt seen it since I posted the offer on Thursday morning. I am gathering it got heated and then pulled to mod section for cleansing. Hopefully it comes back out.

[daveb]

I agree with you spiv, but he guy who tuned the car is well known and a sponsor here.

I do not mind paying good money for good results, but I am NOT please when I am taken advantage of.

[VX2VESS]

i agree the tuner was probably no too good.

but each engine is different and to log every cell and ensure the VE is good takes some time. Then experiement with the AFR to get the best torque/power for the engine, and then run through timing to erradicate knock and ensure best power, is an iterative process and to do it well does indeed take time.

If you have a VE well matched to a set of mods etc you can be 90% there and it can be done in an hour. But for $1500 one would expect more fine tuning.

In my case the guy did NOT even change the VIN number back to my car's VIN after he flashed the file.
why expect more time if it not needed. maybe its start with a close data set from doing 100's of tunes. a couple of runs with the right tools and the tuner know exactly what to change to suit the car. the fine tune is done quickly and without guessing and retesting over and over. less dyno time is a good thing they are not easy on the car. running a car all day on the dyno i'd rather not thanks

free tunes by a new tuner how many runs will that take a weeks worth 2 tanks of petrol. hey i got a free tune to bad the motors shagged..

keep em coming i have 5 mins till blokes world comes on :D

[Martin_D]

Less dyno is better...obviously. Thats why my cars run the fastest times in SA and challenge for the titles nationally. Its the result of 20 years EFI tuning not one laptop, one car. Delphi I see you constantly cruising these forums...care to add something? (Dont worry Seedyrom wont be allowed in here)

[Gareth@Willall]

The tune on my CAM only car which wouldnt idle and wasnt making good power took Tuna 2 hours MAX to fix from scratch and went back 3 days later to have a 10 minute play with the cold idle (cant do that too well whilst warm ;) )

If it requires days or even 8 hours to tune... and thats the excuse they use.... They have NFI and I wouldnt let em near my car.

Gareth

[Martin_D]

The best part about Gareth.....its all actual life experience.........many others should try it sometime :)

[motomk]

I hope hithere is reading this as Sam made an offer via me for his car to be mafless tuned in less than an hour (FREE) so hithere could once again enjoy his car tuned properly the way it should have been done in the first place after so many hours were spent trying to tune it. I also made an open offer to any of the "It takes 8 to 10 hour to properly tune" believers to come and watch (look and learn) how it is done properly and quickly without any smoke and mirrors

The only possible reasons it would take any longer on hitheres car is

1. if it has a mechanical problem
2. tuner doesnt understand how an engine works

number 2 is critical in tuning. If you understand how an engine works you have a better chance of tuning it properly.

hithere is in Melbourne, I believe.
Seedyrom is in Sydney, but I think he is all fixed up now.
I will try and have a look at the offending thread and remove the none hithere stuff from it.

motomk

[spiv]

hey dont pay out toranas theyre one of fastest down the quarter, and known as the one of the horsepower to weight from factory. next time pay out an old ford.

Maybe so but what about their "DRIVABILITY".......I'm sure that that would leave a lot to be desired :rolleyes:

[MattJ]

To go back to the original post to how tune cost can be justified an unfortunate fact of business is cash flow.
For those of you who work for a boss, you would be very surprised maybe in fact shocked how much it costs to run a business.
Its not just the initial out lay for equipment that’s easy just get a loan. The every day running costs of a business are the killer. This is why so many business go broke in the first year or so.
It’s not your money you see going in. It’s the money you don’t see going out.
Some factors in costs you may want to consider.
Wages.
Workcover
Advertising
Insurance
Tools
Stock
Computers
Phone bills
Fuel
Vehicles
Repairs
Stationary
My personal favourite is TAX. :mad:
A price of say $1200 for an edit to you may be a lot of money but for a business like some of the bigger mechanical shops would be a drop in the ocean that is cash flow.
I would like to see a tuner comment on how much it cost him to get you to call to book an edit.You are spot on tonner,you must have buisiness of your own.I'd need to write a book to give the whole picture & I'll try not to bore the hell out of everyone but your post was so accurate that I thought I'd add to it.For example so far my phone bill is $12,000 dollars this financial year so far,my insurance was $11,000,my dyno retarder that failed early in the year $6000,my sleepless nights about ensuring that my workers are payed at the end of each week & ensuring that every customer that leaves my shop has to cost me some of my lifestyle,etc,etc,the costs run into many thousands more.Everyone looks at the work rolling out your door & thinks wow,you must be making a fortune but they don't know the true costs that kill any possiblity of making a decent profit.If I didn't love what I do so much I think I'd be alot better off financially in another proffession.

We charge $990.00 for a tune & $1250 for mafless.The hours that go into a quality mafless tune especially on a heavily modified engine can run into many including paying attention to cold start & fuel economy like many others do not,but we capped it off at $1250 anyway.Tuning costs may seem high compared to other repairs but their is an art to tuning well it's not a simple matter of bolting on a part & waving goodbye.You could say the same about a decent paint job these days,it's simple isn't it? sand it back blow on some paint,bake it in the oven,done in a day,where's the $5000 come from?You are paying for quality & experience,anyone can paint a car but can they do it well?.

The care factor is important & I can say that in our shop when we perform a tune we are in theory married to that tune,we must insure it's the best it can be & to do that it takes time.I can't speak for all tuners but thats how it works in our shop.

I think the most important thing for people to remember when selecting a tuner is the years of experience( if they have any) that they are purchasing via their tuner,the quality of their tuners equipment,dyno,staff etc & the single most important thing is BACK UP & CUSTOMER SERVICE.This is the tuners ability to ensure customer satisfaction even if it means finacial loss to himself & not just to take the money & run when or if help is needed by the customer.Maybe when your talking about someone that has bought a sotware package & becomes a tuner overnight tuning cars on the road without the use of a dyno that has no overheads then $1500 is quite expensive for sure.You must take all the factors into account.

Sorry guys just had to put in my 2 bobs worth.Hopefully this might help more people understand.

Regards Glenn

[VFast]

You are spot on tonner,you must have buisiness of your own.I'd need to write a book to give the whole picture & I'll try not to bore the hell out of everyone but your post was so accurate that I thought I'd add to it.For example so far my phone bill is $12,000 dollars this financial year so far,my insurance was $11,000,my dyno retarder that failed early in the year $6000,my sleepless nights about ensuring that my workers are payed at the end of each week & ensuring that every customer that leaves my shop has to cost me some of my lifestyle,etc,etc,the costs run into many thousands more.Everyone looks at the work rolling out your door & thinks wow,you must be making a fortune but they don't know the true costs that kill any possiblity of making a decent profit.If I didn't love what I do so much I think I'd be alot better off financially in another proffession.

We charge $990.00 for a tune & $1250 for mafless.The hours that go into a quality mafless tune especially on a heavily modified engine can run into many including paying attention to cold start & fuel economy like many others do not,but we capped it off at $1250 anyway.Tuning costs may seem high compared to other repairs but their is an art to tuning well it's not a simple matter of bolting on a part & waving goodbye.You could say the same about a decent paint job these days,it's simple isn't it? sand it back blow on some paint,bake it in the oven,done in a day,where's the $5000 come from?You are paying for quality & experience,anyone can paint a car but can they do it well?.

The care factor is important & I can say that in our shop when we perform a tune we are in theory married to that tune,we must insure it's the best it can be & to do that it takes time.I can't speak for all tuners but thats how it works in our shop.

I think the most important thing for people to remember when selecting a tuner is the years of experience( if they have any) that they are purchasing via their tuner,the quality of their tuners equipment,dyno,staff etc & the single most important thing is BACK UP & CUSTOMER SERVICE.This is the tuners ability to ensure customer satisfaction even if it means finacial loss to himself & not just to take the money & run when or if help is needed by the customer.Maybe when your talking about someone that has bought a sotware package & becomes a tuner overnight tuning cars on the road without the use of a dyno that has no overheads then $1500 is quite expensive for sure.You must take all the factors into account.

Sorry guys just had to put in my 2 bobs worth.Hopefully this might help more people understand.

Regards Glenn

Well done Glenn :thumbsup:

It is great to hear the other side of the story from a tuners perspective.

It is rare to see a tuner make any real comment (if any) in these type of threads when their integrity is being questioned...

Thanks...

[One tonner]

Yes Glenn I am a business operator too, I knew it would show.
Thanks mate glad you commented.
So now every one else, try and see the big picture not just your little patch.

[PJK]

Can the cost of tuning be justified in general?

Absolutely, assuming the tuner is delivering a custom tune to suit your vehicle and not just reflashing the same generic tune as they give everyone else, then $1000-1500 is totally reasonable. Sure some may start from a baseline tune, but it's the extra work that makes it a one off for your car that makes it worth it.

[VX2VESS]

Thanks Glenn.

How many hours in a bolt on tune currently?

i agree with most of that, maybe not the paint job that is a lot of work, hours in painting a whole car properly. don't think it relates to a 1-2 hour tune most panel shops charge by the hourly rate

a simple bolt on tune should be cheaper than a heavy cammed stroked motor if you talking time. so the hard tunes are getting a discount they pay the same as the easy ones?

However some things you would rather pay for the job and not by the hour. Some services they may drag the chain to get more. I recall this electrical place to wire up some spots. The job is really 1-2 hours max to do (this was a bit more than your normal spot job) and he quoted on that, yet he put the apprentice on it while he sat around all day talking on the phone. It took this kid 10 hours and he wanted to charge more due to the time this guy took to work it out. I told him where to stick that. I’m not paying more because the guy didn’t know how to do the job. Could have done it myself in two hours and that would be working it out as I went. The boss could have done it in 1 hour. Plus they scratched the paint.

[Delco]

Been missing all the fun while fixing my PC , but Glen pretty much summed it all up , you get totally what you pay for .

vt2vx I typically take 4 hrs to do a maf tune before I am happy all areas have been covered and checked , about 6-8 hrs with a mafless car , sure you can do it quicker but there is a need to get the best out of every load point.

I have always offered the mail order 1 hr tune for a reasonable cost , a proper tune takes time and every car and customer requirement is different so they pay a fair price , the mafless tune takes a lot more work and there is a good chance a follow up is going to be required to get all the issues right so that is also factored into the equation.

You need to remember the factory takes about a month of tuning for each iteration of the system ie change a exhaust or intake then they go right through the whole process to get it back to the criteria layed down by the emmsion engineeer , the power engineer , and the drivabilty engineer - been there done that and its a friggen lot of work.

now we in the aftermarket have it a little easier but every customer requirement is different and we have to cater for all those needs as well as upgradability.

Take the case of most of my customers , they start of with a maf tune when gettin gthe bug and pay x dollars , then a few months down the track they decide some more mods are required and want a mafless tune , they dont get charged for a mafless tune but a upgrade price that is basically the price difference between the 2 .

Now I have just done the job twice but havent been paid twice , it would have been far better for me financially for the customer to do go right to the top shelf but we as car enthusists like to experiment.

Same customer 6 months later decides to upgrade to a cam , does he get charged for a cam tune - NO he gets a upgraded tune price , then later down the track he wants a blower or a stroker and he still only gets charged a upgrade price.

I know in my case the customer might pay a little more upfront but if he is just looking for a bargain basement 1 hrs flash then he can have a no frills mail orde that will get him to the same place as a inexperienced tuner may get him to for only $300 bucks.

The guys who I feel sorry for are those that got stung by getting a tune from a newby tuner who is experimenting with them as customers , I see it every day where they have to fork again to get the job done properly a second time.

Now I am sure everyone will have a issue at some stage with there tune , go to your tuner , tell them exactly where you are having a problem and if possible take them for a drive ( the hardest problem to solve is one that cant be duplicated easily) , any tuner worth his salt will do everything possible to overcome your issue without charge .

[ralcool]

Even reading the answers from Tuners on this forum in previous posts for months, proves that.. argueably, for your $1500- a tuner is going to give you something good.

however,
Another tuner for the same price might also have low and high order spark tables configured so plain unleaded will run properly, another tuner will know how to correctly configure lean cruise. Another will know how to make their own air box mod really work. Another guy might do a final onroad fine tune/cal, or do a different syle, ala mafless vs maf. Can I be sure this bloke knows how to properly configure the ecm for this mode.

I can't know if Sam or Lachlan do the same thing, and if I'll get great economy like another mate does with his otherwise identical- tuned car. Everybody is different and that applies to tunes and tuners- and although they may all be very good, I have nothing to compare for the merits of one tuner over another. Except perhaps mearly Where I live. And the not unworthy praise from happy customers..

I also appreciate that one pays for experience, but this is a field based very much on experience, and optionally qualifications to back their judgments.
Brain Surgens cost so much because they are actually trained.

I would like to think if someone on this forum paid for a wild tune for a special motor, that during a russian winter, or outback midday- that it starts and performs flawlessly for the cost per hour to have that program loaded, and not just some GTS code with a tweaked fuel table and hotter spark map for max hp on a dyno.

just my thoughts.

Sean

[VX2VESS]

Been missing all the fun while fixing my PC , but Glen pretty much summed it all up , you get totally what you pay for .

vt2vx I typically take 4 hrs to do a maf tune before I am happy all areas have been covered and checked , about 6-8 hrs with a mafless car , sure you can do it quicker but there is a need to get the best out of every load point.

I have always offered the mail order 1 hr tune for a reasonable cost , a proper tune takes time and every car and customer requirement is different so they pay a fair price , the mafless tune takes a lot more work and there is a good chance a follow up is going to be required to get all the issues right so that is also factored into the equation.

You need to remember the factory takes about a month of tuning for each iteration of the system ie change a exhaust or intake then they go right through the whole process to get it back to the criteria layed down by the emmsion engineeer , the power engineer , and the drivabilty engineer - been there done that and its a friggen lot of work.

now we in the aftermarket have it a little easier but every customer requirement is different and we have to cater for all those needs as well as upgradability.

Take the case of most of my customers , they start of with a maf tune when gettin gthe bug and pay x dollars , then a few months down the track they decide some more mods are required and want a mafless tune , they dont get charged for a mafless tune but a upgrade price that is basically the price difference between the 2 .

Now I have just done the job twice but havent been paid twice , it would have been far better for me financially for the customer to do go right to the top shelf but we as car enthusists like to experiment.

Same customer 6 months later decides to upgrade to a cam , does he get charged for a cam tune - NO he gets a upgraded tune price , then later down the track he wants a blower or a stroker and he still only gets charged a upgrade price.

I know in my case the customer might pay a little more upfront but if he is just looking for a bargain basement 1 hrs flash then he can have a no frills mail orde that will get him to the same place as a inexperienced tuner may get him to for only $300 bucks.

The guys who I feel sorry for are those that got stung by getting a tune from a newby tuner who is experimenting with them as customers , I see it every day where they have to fork again to get the job done properly a second time.

Now I am sure everyone will have a issue at some stage with there tune , go to your tuner , tell them exactly where you are having a problem and if possible take them for a drive ( the hardest problem to solve is one that cant be duplicated easily) , any tuner worth his salt will do everything possible to overcome your issue without charge .

sounds fair to me

[MattJ]

Been missing all the fun while fixing my PC , but Glen pretty much summed it all up , you get totally what you pay for .

vt2vx I typically take 4 hrs to do a maf tune before I am happy all areas have been covered and checked , about 6-8 hrs with a mafless car , sure you can do it quicker but there is a need to get the best out of every load point.

I have always offered the mail order 1 hr tune for a reasonable cost , a proper tune takes time and every car and customer requirement is different so they pay a fair price , the mafless tune takes a lot more work and there is a good chance a follow up is going to be required to get all the issues right so that is also factored into the equation.

You need to remember the factory takes about a month of tuning for each iteration of the system ie change a exhaust or intake then they go right through the whole process to get it back to the criteria layed down by the emmsion engineeer , the power engineer , and the drivabilty engineer - been there done that and its a friggen lot of work.

now we in the aftermarket have it a little easier but every customer requirement is different and we have to cater for all those needs as well as upgradability.

Take the case of most of my customers , they start of with a maf tune when gettin gthe bug and pay x dollars , then a few months down the track they decide some more mods are required and want a mafless tune , they dont get charged for a mafless tune but a upgrade price that is basically the price difference between the 2 .

Now I have just done the job twice but havent been paid twice , it would have been far better for me financially for the customer to do go right to the top shelf but we as car enthusists like to experiment.

Same customer 6 months later decides to upgrade to a cam , does he get charged for a cam tune - NO he gets a upgraded tune price , then later down the track he wants a blower or a stroker and he still only gets charged a upgrade price.

I know in my case the customer might pay a little more upfront but if he is just looking for a bargain basement 1 hrs flash then he can have a no frills mail orde that will get him to the same place as a inexperienced tuner may get him to for only $300 bucks.

The guys who I feel sorry for are those that got stung by getting a tune from a newby tuner who is experimenting with them as customers , I see it every day where they have to fork again to get the job done properly a second time.

Now I am sure everyone will have a issue at some stage with there tune , go to your tuner , tell them exactly where you are having a problem and if possible take them for a drive ( the hardest problem to solve is one that cant be duplicated easily) , any tuner worth his salt will do everything possible to overcome your issue without charge .Spot on,a great post from an opposition tuner of whom I have much respect for.Good to see your input Delco,I'm sure it's appreciated.

Regards Glenn

[Justice R8]

Even reading the answers from Tuners on this forum in previous posts for months, proves that.. argueably, for your $1500- a tuner is going to give you something good.

however,
Another tuner for the same price might also have low and high order spark tables configured so plain unleaded will run properly, another tuner will know how to correctly configure lean cruise. Another will know how to make their own air box mod really work. Another guy might do a final onroad fine tune/cal, or do a different syle, ala mafless vs maf. Can I be sure this bloke knows how to properly configure the ecm for this mode.

I can't know if Sam or Lachlan do the same thing, and if I'll get great economy like another mate does with his otherwise identical- tuned car. Everybody is different and that applies to tunes and tuners- and although they may all be very good, I have nothing to compare for the merits of one tuner over another. Except perhaps mearly Where I live. And the not unworthy praise from happy customers..

I also appreciate that one pays for experience, but this is a field based very much on experience, and optionally qualifications to back their judgments.
Brain Surgens cost so much because they are actually trained.

I would like to think if someone on this forum paid for a wild tune for a special motor, that during a russian winter, or outback midday- that it starts and performs flawlessly for the cost per hour to have that program loaded, and not just some GTS code with a tweaked fuel table and hotter spark map for max hp on a dyno.

just my thoughts.

Sean

If the Tuner offers to tune your car, then if your not happy will load your old program and charge $200 for dyno time is generally another way to pick if the tuner is any good. Thats what Sam offers and NOBODY has ever asked for the old tune back. As Delco said pick wisely first and only pay once.

Didnt happen like that for seedyrom or hithere.

There was an earlier point by MNRO about once you pay for a tune you should own the rights to it. Interested in the tuners point of view here. Maybe Delco and G&D? I know Sam believes it his his intellectual property and once somebody else touches it he wont.

[fatas]

is that right get tune by sam next month try sas or dick or tuna or ------ then go back to sam he tells you to go away ??? surely not ? :confused:
i am about to go down the tune path so this thread has been 100% helpful still havent made my mind up who in sydney gets the cash. :)

[Justice R8]

is that right get tune by sam next month try sas or dick or tuna or ------ then go back to sam he tells you to go away ??? surely not ? :confused:
i am about to go down the tune path so this thread has been 100% helpful still havent made my mind up who in sydney gets the cash. :)

Its pretty well right and why shouldnt it be. If somebody else touches the tune he does for you, why should he have to fix it for you free. Most tuners are the same. Its like getting a wheel alignment on your new tyres, then getting a second alignment elsewhere 2 days later. Suddenly the tyres wear out so you go to the guy who did the first alignment and ask him for new tyres. He shouldnt have to fix somebody elses problem. If he aligned it and they wore out he would fix it. Same with tuning

fatas you have enough info here to make an informed decision. Ask for a the sort of assurance like I said. ie if your not happy when you test drive it can you have your money back.

I bet hithere and seedyrom wished they had that sort of deal from their tuners. hithere wouldnt be running a maf now to fix the problems the tuners couldnt. Days and nights to tune a car my ass. I hate the smoke and mirror stuff. At least Sam wont give you the speil to write on here about being the best of the best. Hell just give you a great tune that works and quickly :D

[fatas]

no sorry i never ment that sam or any other tuner should do it for free. but he would do it for the right money ? and yes i now think i know who gets the job thanks for all the help from everybody. :)

[VYSHSV8]

Any tuner or engine builder who is respected or wants to gain respect in the indusrty that is cut throat will in general more than be happy to help there customer in any form if there is a problem with there tune or engine build remember one major FACT in the Indusrty 1-2 people that go around and say a tuner or mechanic is no good can turn into the potential loss of say 100 customers in a year, remember word of mouth in this industry is very powerful and the respected people will do there best to help every customer out.
Just my2c

[MNR-0]

I can definately understand why a Tuner would not want to continue work on a car that was re-edited after they initially performed the edit. And if you were dumb enough to go back and say that, you may as well slap that Tuner in the face.

There are some that shop hunt thinking the grass is always greener on the other side and float from Tuner to Tuner. Eventually those people get black-banned as its a pretty close knit community.

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it, if it is geographically possible. It also depends on what kind of further work you require. Give them the chance to respond. Thats what service is all about. Thats the ethical thing to do.

If you cant sort it out, then by all means move on, because it is likely you will never return anyway. I dont think any Tuner would easily accept a dissatisfied customer walking away.

[Gareth@Willall]

[QUOTE=MNR-0]

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it. Give them the chance to respond. Thats what service is all about. Thats the ethical thing to do.
[QUOTE]

Problem with that is.... If you have a problem with your tune which is that much of a concern.... Clearly the tuner had NFI the first time and what makes you think they can fix it a 2nd time? I'd prefer not to have my car become someones experiment! If they are charging for a tune they should know how to do it spot on the first time. (minor alterations are different to major ones ;) )

Gareth

[strife]

I guess you have had no warranty issues then ;)

[MNR-0]

[QUOTE=MNR-0]

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it. Give them the chance to respond. Thats what service is all about. Thats the ethical thing to do.
[QUOTE]

Problem with that is.... If you have a problem with your tune which is that much of a concern.... Clearly the tuner had NFI the first time and what makes you think they can fix it a 2nd time? I'd prefer not to have my car become someones experiment! If they are charging for a tune they should know how to do it spot on the first time. (minor alterations are different to major ones ;) )

Gareth
I hear ya.

However, that is a very general and subjective statement. I can only assume you mean the Tuner farked it up completely therefore demonstrating they have no idea. Do you know how many people I have talked to that say that about everyone else? This person is crap, they have NFI blah... blah... blah... I take comments like that with a grain of salt and wonder why those people have to state a defence in the first place.

Then there's the shit that continually flies between most of the workshops and somehow seems to draw a number of their customers into the affray. WTF is up wit dat?! IMO, they just want a well running fast car. What opinion a Tuner has of another should have nothing to do with the customer per se.

Then there are the loyalists that will bend over to state their Tuner is a gun. Fantastic! Awesome news, especially if it is public knowledge. If everyone is the best, then there can be no worst - can there?

[Gareth@Willall]

However, that is a very general and subjective statement. I can only assume you mean the Tuner farked it up completely therefore demonstrating they have no idea. Do you know how many people I have talked to that say that about everyone else? This person is crap, they have NFI blah... blah... blah... I take comments like that with a grain of salt and wonder why those people have to state a defence in the first place.

I was being general and if you knew where I was coming from you would appreciate my view. If you wana know send me a PM!

Gareth

[seedyrom]

I was being general and if you knew where I was coming from you would appreciate my view. If you wana know send me a PM!

Gareth

Is this about my recent experience on the forums?


-POST REMOVED FOR REASONS OF, i COULDNT BE BOTHER WITH A SH!T FIGHT AT THIS TIME OF NIGHT-

[STATIE]

[QUOTE=MNR-0][QUOTE=MNR-0]

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it. Give them the chance to respond.



Exactly.

This goes for any service whether car related or not.

If they don't sort out the problem for you (within a reasonable timeframe)-
well FARK THEM :box:

But if you don't even give them that chance-
well FARK YOU :bash:

Obviously there will be the odd extreme case which won't fit into the above and then you would hope that both you and the tuner/service provider could come to some sort of amicable agreement/compromise but if you go and get the opposition (tuner/service provider) to work on or even fix the issue before you even give them a chance to, or any right of response - then any warrenty or chance of comebacks which you may or may not have had are well and truely out the window.

I'm in a service industry myself and unfortunately I have found that if one of our guys f@#ks a job up you can guarantee that the customer will chew my arse out (which they are entitled to do) but on the other end of the scale we can perform 100 outstanding/perfect jobs and would be lucky to get 5% of those customers to give any good feedback.

Another funny thing in the car scene (especially LS1 it seems) is that everyone wants there car to go faster but everyone wants it to also behave as a stocker which is just not going to happen apart from maybe a bolt-on only and tuned car.
EVERY modification comes with some sort of compromise wether it be with driveability or fuel consumption - if your not prepared to put up with that then leave your car stock.

Oh well it's midnight now, I might just go howl at the moon. :demon:

[Plan B]

[QUOTE=MNR-0][QUOTE=MNR-0]

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it. Give them the chance to respond.



Exactly.

This goes for any service whether car related or not.

If they don't sort out the problem for you (within a reasonable timeframe)-
well FARK THEM :box:

But if you don't even give them that chance-
well FARK YOU :bash:

Obviously there will be the odd extreme case which won't fit into the above and then you would hope that both you and the tuner/service provider could come to some sort of amicable agreement/compromise but if you go and get the opposition (tuner/service provider) to work on or even fix the issue before you even give them a chance to, or any right of response - then any warrenty or chance of comebacks which you may or may not have had are well and truely out the window.

I'm in a service industry myself and unfortunately I have found that if one of our guys f@#ks a job up you can guarantee that the customer will chew my arse out (which they are entitled to do) but on the other end of the scale we can perform 100 outstanding/perfect jobs and would be lucky to get 5% of those customers to give any good feedback.

Another funny thing in the car scene (especially LS1 it seems) is that everyone wants there car to go faster but everyone wants it to also behave as a stocker which is just not going to happen apart from maybe a bolt-on only and tuned car.
EVERY modification comes with some sort of compromise wether it be with driveability or fuel consumption - if your not prepared to put up with that then leave your car stock.

Oh well it's midnight now, I might just go howl at the moon. :demon:


Woof... :) Good post! :cool:

[Gareth@Willall]

Is this about my recent experience on the forums?


-POST REMOVED FOR REASONS OF, i COULDNT BE BOTHER WITH A SH!T FIGHT AT THIS TIME OF NIGHT-

No. Its not.... If u wana know send me a PM ;)

[VYSHSV8]

[QUOTE=MNR-0][QUOTE=MNR-0]

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it. Give them the chance to respond.



Exactly.

This goes for any service whether car related or not.

If they don't sort out the problem for you (within a reasonable timeframe)-
well FARK THEM :box:

But if you don't even give them that chance-
well FARK YOU :bash:

Obviously there will be the odd extreme case which won't fit into the above and then you would hope that both you and the tuner/service provider could come to some sort of amicable agreement/compromise but if you go and get the opposition (tuner/service provider) to work on or even fix the issue before you even give them a chance to, or any right of response - then any warrenty or chance of comebacks which you may or may not have had are well and truely out the window.

I'm in a service industry myself and unfortunately I have found that if one of our guys f@#ks a job up you can guarantee that the customer will chew my arse out (which they are entitled to do) but on the other end of the scale we can perform 100 outstanding/perfect jobs and would be lucky to get 5% of those customers to give any good feedback.

Another funny thing in the car scene (especially LS1 it seems) is that everyone wants there car to go faster but everyone wants it to also behave as a stocker which is just not going to happen apart from maybe a bolt-on only and tuned car.
EVERY modification comes with some sort of compromise wether it be with driveability or fuel consumption - if your not prepared to put up with that then leave your car stock.

Oh well it's midnight now, I might just go howl at the moon. :demon:

Well said

[MattJ]

No. Its not.... If u wana know send me a PM ;)

Can you send me a PM with what your talking about Gareth?

[MattJ]

[QUOTE=MNR-0]

Bottom line. If you have an issue with your tune, sort it out with the person who Tuned it. Give them the chance to respond. Thats what service is all about. Thats the ethical thing to do.
[QUOTE]

Problem with that is.... If you have a problem with your tune which is that much of a concern.... Clearly the tuner had NFI the first time and what makes you think they can fix it a 2nd time? I'd prefer not to have my car become someones experiment! If they are charging for a tune they should know how to do it spot on the first time. (minor alterations are different to major ones ;) )

Gareth

Maybe another PM to me will clear this one up...

Matt's starting to get all warm and fuzzy about now... lets play, hey?

[fatas]

is this the longest thread ever ? :bash: go get them boys. :bash:

[VX SS]

is this the longest thread ever ? :bash: go get them boys. :bash:

Not Close

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=26486

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=27589&highlight=camshaft

[VX2VESS]

This wasn't supposed to be a tuner bashing thread. Start another thread on who the best or worst if thats what u need.

all tuner deserves a chance to fix a problem, don't pack up and leave due first up, 2nd time you may have a reason. a minor problems i wouldn't mind one return, constant returns for bigger problems you have a problem.

[fatas]

415 and 5000 hits ok so no ware near the longest but may be it will get there on the vz ? :)

[Justice R8]

Not Close

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=27589&highlight=camshaft

An oldie but a goodie. The thread I mean.

[MNR-0]

The market is becoming more competitive and aware of just what these LS1s can do. Expectations are being raised by the general public in light of cars that are performing well. I predict that it will no longer be adequate to pump out a WOT tuned car without significant time spent on drivability, economy, shift customisation, idle and other part throttle editing.

It will be interesting to see how this evolves as in general Workshops already seem to be too busy to spend appropriate time in servicing a lot of these items. As competition increases, either costs must come down or quality come up.

Workshops that currently undertake this for all their customers can be proud.

[VX2VESS]

The market is becoming more competitive and aware of just what these LS1s can do. Expectations are being raised by the general public in light of cars that are performing well. I predict that it will no longer be adequate to pump out a WOT tuned car without significant time spent on drivability, economy, shift customisation, idle and other part throttle editing.

It will be interesting to see how this evolves as in general Workshops already seem to be too busy to spend appropriate time in servicing a lot of these items. As competition increases, either costs must come down or quality come up.

Workshops that currently undertake this for all their customers can be proud.

That is a very good point. Good times are one thing that is easy to get from a tune. the other stuff you also want setup well, probably more so unless the car is only a drag car.
So you believe some just do a tune that has worked before on the same setup, and only fine tune to WOT, then next car $$$$ thanks. where others spend the time to set all the day to day driving finer points. I'd say so too and was kinda my reason for this. and these tunes, if the one being copied over is set well should work ok (after all holden load the same tune in every model vt vx etc) but is it worth $$$$$ to do that. basically if a close tune is copied over its really a mail order tune that wasn't mailed