Is A Mafless Tune Legal??

[chillicatqld]

Hi All
Just wanting some help on clarify whether or not a mafless tune is a legal/roadworthy thing to do to your car? I am in QLD but advice around the country would be greatly appreciated...

[MNR-0]

My understanding is that it is illegal to alter the emissions status of your car. That said, going MAFless on a MAF car would be illegal. This supports the information I have received from other contacts. I also understand that many workshops know this but still recommend MAFless. Personally, I think MAFless is great for the track as you can run the OTRCAI but street wise, I would always recommend the MAF.

[spiv]

Well the GTS is mafless from the factory so in theory it would not be illegal

[VX2VESS]

if it mets the specs for emissions its legal. but whos going to pay to test it?

now big cammed cars have no hope

[VX2VESS]

Well the GTS is mafless from the factory so in theory it would not be illegal

that had trouble passing

[chillicatqld]

Just actually spoke to RTA QLD - who by the way didn't know about cards getting Mafless tuning... but who said that if a car came out with a MAF sensor - then it IS ILLEGAL to modify it in anyway. Also by the way if altering beyond manufacturers specs, a Maf tune is also illegal... Which puts everyone in the poo with insurance that ha a tune as it is not legal - therefore would void any insurance claim. You may say - " so what" if you hit another car they may not look for it. But as the RTA guy said to me... what if you hit the drivers door of a Rolls Royce driven by a brainsurgeon and you smash up his right hand - any insurance company is gonna try and escape that kind of damages claim! GOOD POINT I THOUGHT!!

[Mongy]

Another little point to remember is it is not up to the officer, be they police, RTA, EPA or whatever, to prove your car does NOT comply in the event of a modification, the onus falls on you to prove it DOES.

[VX2VESS]

Just actually spoke to RTA QLD - who by the way didn't know about cards getting Mafless tuning... but who said that if a car came out with a MAF sensor - then it IS ILLEGAL to modify it in anyway. Also by the way if altering beyond manufacturers specs, a Maf tune is also illegal... Which puts everyone in the poo with insurance that ha a tune as it is not legal - therefore would void any insurance claim. You may say - " so what" if you hit another car they may not look for it. But as the RTA guy said to me... what if you hit the drivers door of a Rolls Royce driven by a brainsurgeon and you smash up his right hand - any insurance company is gonna try and escape that kind of damages claim! GOOD POINT I THOUGHT!!

its only illegal if it doesn't met the emisions testing.

changing your exhaust is also illegal by that way of thinking even if it mets 90db, it gave you more power.

A tune doesn't make a car any more dangerous to other users or by means of insurance. maybe to the EPA it does.

[chillicatqld]

Hey I value all opinions here - and I am not saying I/you are right or wrong! I am just trying to figure out my legalities here as I have had a mafless done - not told it "is illegal" - and am trying to make sure I am insured. Now Just Cars Insurnace will cover and roadworthy/legal modifcations - and opinions made known to me say that it is illegal. Am thinking of boring out centre of MAF and putting it back on car and not telling anyone???

[spiv]

Hey I value all opinions here - and I am not saying I/you are right or wrong! I am just trying to figure out my legalities here as I have had a mafless done - not told it "is illegal" - and am trying to make sure I am insured. Now Just Cars Insurnace will cover and roadworthy/legal modifcations - and opinions made known to me say that it is illegal. Am thinking of boring out centre of MAF and putting it back on car and not telling anyone???

To me illegal=unroadworthy not that it "may" not pass an emissions test.

If you are worried about insurance talk to Shannons as they will insure all modifications as long as they are roadworthy.

[Ricko]

I'd reckon any edited car would be unlikely to meet ADR emmisions compliance, regardless of whether the MAF is there or not. So it would be fair to say that ditching the MAF itself is not illegal, but your non compliance with ADR emmisions would be, if that was the end result of the tune.

[Animal]

its only illegal if it doesn't met the emisions testing

Which may also includes most of the aftermarket exhausts and cats.

As for the insurance side, if you disclose it up front then you are covered, regardless if the brainsurgeon breaks a nail. My mafless tune is covered, as are ALL my mods.

Common sense here guys :rolleyes:

[chillicatqld]

Yes but your duty of disclosure is probably outwighed by the fact that insurers only cover "legal" modifications...

[chillicatqld]

Hey Animal.
Just wondering who your insurer is?
How did you go about wording of the disclosure about the mafless?
ie: Did you tell the them you have had a tune? Have had a Mafles tune? Or a mafless edit - in other words how is it stated on your claim - just wondering so I can term my approach properly to insurers... cheers for the input crew.

[markone2]

Just actually spoke to RTA QLD - who by the way didn't know about cards getting Mafless tuning... but who said that if a car came out with a MAF sensor - then it IS ILLEGAL to modify it in anyway. !!


I’m glad that’s all sorted ;) ………having got the all clear from QLD department of Transport Inspectors to write Queensland Safety Certificates ( RWC ) on cars with or without an LS1 edit tune.

ps.....cannot modify what is not there :lol: ...sorry ,could not resist the last bit

[chillicatqld]

hey Markone - so you are saying you are able to give roadworthys on mafless car? interesting isnt - depends on who you talk to hey?

[markone2]

- depends on who you talk to hey?


Certainly does.......a bit like Warranty claims actually ;)

[Cobalt]

If from factory the car came without a maf in any form. ie GTS. then u can legally make the same modification to your vehicle and it is not illegal. It is not even considered modified. If you installed a c4b engine and a gts program it is not modified provided u meet all other ADR requirements (if the gts required bigger brakes or other modifications with the larger spec motor).

In fact it is not even considered to be modified. I had a sigma many moons ago and put a 2600 manual where the orig 2000 auto had been. Asked engineer and they said no problems and no mod plate required as lonk as all the factory components are used (I could uses equivelent(s) as long as they were heavier/stronger than the originals). Went to transport to change the engine number and capacity details and list the manual tranny and no problems.

By the way you guys are talking a change to manual would be illegal too...

BTW if u injured that brain surgeon then CTP would cover it not you insurance you would be however responsible for the rolls royce.....They cant deny a ctp claim.

Cobalt

[LSX-438]

i believe a certain Vic tuner has gone to the trouble of getting his tuned cars ADR approved/emissions tested.

I fail to believe if a car is altered from factory it is automatically "illegal" especially after reading all those Street Machine stories about hybrid cars (toronas with insane engines etc) and the hassle getting it all approved, surely it is doable.

[Cobalt]

Im not taliking about putting a large motor in another car that never cam
with that motor. The sigma analogy used two cars or the same make and
model and year.

The maffles arg applies to a Commodore and what came in any form of
comodore in that current year model. ie a mod plate would be required to put
an ls2 motor in a2002 commodore even though the block mabe the same dimensions as no commodore cam with an ls2. This applies even though the GTS in 2002 came with more power. Strange but true..in Sunny QLD at least

[ROARZ]

Yes, per a post in the "First Defect" thread, here is what APS has to say on the modifications topic:

http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/ls1/legalities.htm

Not exactly inline with what Jason Gray or Rick Beddoes has achieved in terms of testing and engineering reports. Pretty sure Jason didn't spend $15000 getting his EPA test done, in fact, I believe he said it was free. They are both in the NSW jurisdiction though, so I wonder what our rules are in Qld?

[MNR-0]

Just actually spoke to RTA QLD - who by the way didn't know about cards getting Mafless tuning... but who said that if a car came out with a MAF sensor - then it IS ILLEGAL to modify it in anyway.
Thats the gist of it. If it has a MAF, removing it technically makes it illegal. Replacing it with another MAF that meets or exceeds manufacturers specifications is OK though, just like upgrading the brakes.

The real test is the EPA. Most modified V8s these days will fail the noise and emissions test because they either run too much timing or the exhaust system is too big.

This is something you must be prepared for when you start modifying your vehicle. It is not likely you will get canaried, but there is always a chance no matter how slim.

[spiv]

If any one is worried about legalities just put the maf back in and take its guts out, therefore visually it all looks kosher but has all the benefits of a mafl;ess tune.... :D

[chillicatqld]

well thats all cool - have spoken to "Just Cars" they will insure a mafless car - if it is roadworthy/legal!! so where do i find out if it is or not?
BTW i was paying $879 full comp at RACQ - Just Cars want $1369

[bigafoot]

Reading what alot of you have said here then any car that has a different computer tune in it will be iilegal.

It always use to be that you could take the highest spec. for that model. ie vx series weather that be be exec. or gts. So that is how you can fit larger wheels bigger brakes mafless tunes etc.etc. You are effectively basing your mods off a GTS spec. vehicle.

This is what I was told a few years ago when I owned a HQ coupe. all mod were based off the higest spec vehicle. This came from the Cops and DOT inspector. So unless they have changed the goal post recently we all have nothing to worry about.

[chillicatqld]

man - I am sooooooooo confused.
Anyone have any definate problems being pulled over with a mafless that they would like to share??

[Mozz]

man - I am sooooooooo confused.
Anyone have any definate problems being pulled over with a mafless that they would like to share??

Ok - go back to your tuner - get them to reinstate maf and stock holden tune - tell them you didn't do your research before you engaged them to provide you with 20 + rwkw, significantly better fuel economy and throttle response.

Once you have done this then contact the moderators on this forum and ask them to delete your account. Issues all resolved.

[LSX-438]

this says it all


This is something you must be prepared for when you start modifying your vehicle. It is not likely you will get canaried, but there is always a chance no matter how slim.

The outcome you want - a fully ADR'ed/sanctioned mafless tune - just isnt going to happen. Think about the millions of cars on the road and how a fair chunk of them are subtely modified. Think of how many people buy an edited commodore and have no idea it is edited. Think of how many people buy a car with mag wheels and/or tyres that are technically non-compliant. Sometimes it is far more trouble to ask about technical compliance.

[Gareth@Willall]

man - I am sooooooooo confused.
Anyone have any definate problems being pulled over with a mafless that they would like to share??

The cop would have to have a clue. I hardly think they will be looking for missing sensors! I recon you will be safe.

[Animal]

Yes but your duty of disclosure is probably outwighed by the fact that insurers only cover "legal" modifications...

If the modification was illegal then be it on your own head ?

It the car is road worthy, then it can be insured.

How else would a 350ci Chevy powered XU-1 ever be insured if this was not true ?

How can fitting a PWR supercharger to an LS-1 be insured ?

Why .. all disclosed and all legal.

What would you discribe as an illegal modification ???

[BlueVZSS]

Queensland Transport publish a booklet that tells you what you can and can't do. In essence they permit most things provided that approval is given by "An Approved Person" under the scheme who charges a fee. They are not DOT staff. Simple modifications are approved by the terms in the booklet.

Example One:

Exhaust systems
Exhaust systems must comply with Queensland legislation which includes the following conditions:
Exhaust headers (extractors) may be fitted to any motor vehicle, provided:
-they do not foul any part of the steering, suspension, brake or fuel systems
- all fittings for emission control equipment (E.G.R. valve, oxygen sensor, pipes and so on) are incorporated to ensure the vehicle maintains compliance with Australian Design Rules for vehicle emissions
- exhaust systems must continue to comply with relevant legislation or Australian Design Rules for vehicle noise.

Example Two:

Fuel systems
Powerchips, multiple and/or replacement carburettors may be fitted to any motor vehicle provided the vehicle continues to comply with the emission requirements of the Australian Design Rules applicable at the time of the
vehicle’s manufacture. Air cleaners must be fitted.

Example Three:

Lowering or raising of vehicles
The road clearance of a fully laden vehicle must not be less than 100mm measured at any part of the vehicle other than the wheel rim or brake backing plates.

So....get the booklet, find "An Authorised Person" get them passed and they are legal and your car will still be insurable provided that you meet your duty of disclosure, pay the premium and your insurance company accepts the risk.

Sorry about the long post but people seemed to want to know. I am sure that a similar scheme operates in most States.

[chillicatqld]

cheers bluevvss - good post. got a spare Maf here. - gonna change insurers (as RACQ wont let me have mafless) disclose all to the new insurers, and bore out the centre of the Maf metre and replace in car - problem solved - or hidden! lol one or the other...

[Elite SS]

Queensland Transport publish a booklet that tells you what you can and can't do. In essence they permit most things provided that approval is given by "An Approved Person" under the scheme who charges a fee. They are not DOT staff. Simple modifications are approved by the terms in the booklet.

Example One:

Exhaust systems
Exhaust systems must comply with Queensland legislation which includes the following conditions:
Exhaust headers (extractors) may be fitted to any motor vehicle, provided:
-they do not foul any part of the steering, suspension, brake or fuel systems
- all fittings for emission control equipment (E.G.R. valve, oxygen sensor, pipes and so on) are incorporated to ensure the vehicle maintains compliance with Australian Design Rules for vehicle emissions
- exhaust systems must continue to comply with relevant legislation or Australian Design Rules for vehicle noise.

Example Two:

Fuel systems
Powerchips, multiple and/or replacement carburettors may be fitted to any motor vehicle provided the vehicle continues to comply with the emission requirements of the Australian Design Rules applicable at the time of the
vehicle’s manufacture. Air cleaners must be fitted.

Example Three:

Lowering or raising of vehicles
The road clearance of a fully laden vehicle must not be less than 100mm measured at any part of the vehicle other than the wheel rim or brake backing plates.

So....get the booklet, find "An Authorised Person" get them passed and they are legal and your car will still be insurable provided that you meet your duty of disclosure, pay the premium and your insurance company accepts the risk.

Sorry about the long post but people seemed to want to know. I am sure that a similar scheme operates in most States.



So what the Authorities are saying anything that is approved by them is legal,
So a Mafless tune as in the GTS is legal if its done to the GTS specs Basically LS 1 Edit is legal, also the same size cats can be used as with the rest of the exhaust system.
I was told by my Local authorities that I can fit a cat-back system as long
as it is not louder than 90 db and the cats must remain.
Off the subject a bit here...
I had a similar problem with my old VS SER I V 8 S, I had 235-45-17 VT SS mags, which were illegal for a series I But were Legal for a Series III VS
SS.The Insurance did cover me with them, but he RTA said they were illegal.


Regards
Goran (Elite SS)

[JMEVXSS]

The cop would have to have a clue. I hardly think they will be looking for missing sensors! I recon you will be safe.

Once had a cop pull me over in Rocky and asked me to pop the bonnet in a 'noisey' RX3, only for him to make the comment that its got a lumpy cam!

[Elite SS]

Must of been a very lumpy cam was it a 6 or 8 cylinder RX3 ... :lol: :lol:
One of my mate's mate mate put a rod through his 13 B.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
this one's for the cop... :box: :bash:

[BlueVZSS]

So what the Authorities are saying anything that is approved by them is legal


Correct, provided that "An Approved Person" approves it as meeting Australian Design Rules.

It appears that there is a lot of latitude and that contrary to popular belief they are quite relaxed about many things that people worry the most about like exhausts, lowering, changes to fuel systems etc. In QLD none of these require "An Approved Person" to authorise them. It is only things such as the addition of turbos, superchargers, brake system substitution, diff substitution that require approval.

I think that the simple rule of thumb is that bolt-ons and engine mods (eg CAMS/Heads) are regarded as simple and require no approval provided that they meet ADR and anything else probably requires approval. The only potential complicating factors are emissions and noise, both of which could be tested by the authorities if they were concerned.

[Elite SS]

As far as a Iknow this was told to by an RTA Inspector when Ihad to take one of my cars over the pits...
Once you put a screwdriver to it and modify any part of the car that is not standard on THAT particular car , Not MAKE or MODEL, youhave legally defected it..
eg :
1 : Wheels and tyres can not excede more than 1 inch from Factory specs.
2 : Seats front or rear have to have a Registered Engineers Report.
3 : Engine capacity has to be suited to the weight to the cubic inches to the cars size. eg, a 350 cu will not be allowed into a LJ but a 327 will..
4 : Painting the car. The RTA have to be informed for detail update.
5 : Exhaust systems can be fitted as long as they don't exceed their
legal DB.
6 : Lowering a car no lower than 100 mm from the lowest point of any
part of the cars structure.

7 : Tinted windows : Pre 1995 30 % tint
Post 1995 15 %
8 : Burnouts Pre 2000 - A naughty sticker and a small Donation :(
Post 2000 - The Police get to enjoy your car on Weekends :mad:

Basically nearly every High Performance car Owner is Driving a defective Vehicle...

[BlueVZSS]

As far as a Iknow this was told to by an RTA Inspector when Ihad to take one of my cars over the pits...
Once you put a screwdriver to it and modify any part of the car that is not standard on THAT particular car , Not MAKE or MODEL, youhave legally defected it..
eg :
1 : Wheels and tyres can not excede more than 1 inch from Factory specs.
2 : Seats front or rear have to have a Registered Engineers Report.
3 : Engine capacity has to be suited to the weight to the cubic inches to the cars size. eg, a 350 cu will not be allowed into a LJ but a 327 will..
4 : Painting the car. The RTA have to be informed for detail update.
5 : Exhaust systems can be fitted as long as they don't exceed their
legal DB.
6 : Lowering a car no lower than 100 mm from the lowest point of any
part of the cars structure.

7 : Tinted windows : Pre 1995 30 % tint
Post 1995 15 %
8 : Burnouts Pre 2000 - A naughty sticker and a small Donation :(
Post 2000 - The Police get to enjoy your car on Weekends :mad:

Basically nearly every High Performance car Owner is Driving a defective Vehicle...

Simple solution.....move to QLD...everyone else is :lol:

[chillicatqld]

i must admit QLD is a fair bit more relaxed - but what about when we cross the border to NSW with no MAF?

[exwrx]

I think some of you are missing the point - if the police or EPA defect your vehicle the onus is on the driver/owner to prove that it complies. The proper EPA test is very expensive in Victoria - 3K from memory, pass or fail.

In the insurance scenario, the insurers are not stupid - you have a duty of disclosure as well as the overriding requirement for any mods to be legal. Again, if it comes down to contesting a claim, the onus is on the owner of the vehicle to prove that their car is legal.

Do not be under any misapprehensions - we all run the risk of being defected and having insurance claims denied, even with a simple edit tune.

Having said that, the police that pulled me over a few weeks ago believed me when I told them my H/C LS1 had a misfire problem and was therefore running a bit rough :lol: :p

[Tez82]

I think some of you are missing the point - if the police or EPA defect your vehicle the onus is on the driver/owner to prove that it complies. The proper EPA test is very expensive in Victoria - 3K from memory, pass or fail.

In the insurance scenario, the insurers are not stupid - you have a duty of disclosure as well as the overriding requirement for any mods to be legal. Again, if it comes down to contesting a claim, the onus is on the owner of the vehicle to prove that their car is legal.

Do not be under any misapprehensions - we all run the risk of being defected and having insurance claims denied, even with a simple edit tune.

Having said that, the police that pulled me over a few weeks ago believed me when I told them my H/C LS1 had a misfire problem and was therefore running a bit rough :lol: :p
Yeah you right mate. I known of claims being knocked back cause cars were fitted with POD air filters. But everyone takes the chance, and it all depends on the sorta claim you make with your insurance. I personally don't see how an edit would be detected, especially MAF edit... Boys at Holden can't really tell, so yeah. One thing I would like to know is that is putting widder wheels ie 255 instead of 235 in the rear legal or not ???

[Elite SS]

If the modification was illegal then be it on your own head ?

It the car is road worthy, then it can be insured.

How else would a 350ci Chevy powered XU-1 ever be insured if this was not true ?

How can fitting a PWR supercharger to an LS-1 be insured ?

Why .. all disclosed and all legal.

What would you discribe as an illegal modification ???

G'day Ken

AS you saying about the cars been legally modified should be legally allowed to be insured, they probably could be insured if you can find an insurance company that will insure that kind of car, about 2 million years ago I used to hangaround a couple of blokes with their Capris and Cortinas bolted to the V8 usually the 351 kind and none of them were insured, untill they told the insurance companies that they were 302's if the insurer found out, their insurance would be cancelled, even though they had engineers certificates to show that the cars were legally roadworthy...
I know we do see Blown 6/71 Toranas around every now and then , but under what conditions are these cars insured and if they even are.
Its a risk everybody takes when modifying any car regardless if its a major or a minor mod, its still a risk we take everyday either with the authorites or (todays scum) I mean Thieves.

See you at the track, with my FACTORY STOCK SS..

Regards
Goran